[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Asthereal]

The manabase was great. I was happy with the Bayou all day, and it never really hurt. Being able to combo off the Bayou definitely made it feel better then a Tropical.

Good to hear. I have been running +1 Mine and the green Dual in the board, but I want more sideboard space.

The Hypergenesis deck was playing some of the damage enchantments (Warstorm Surge, Wound Reflection), Gisela, Hellkite, Emrakul, Progenitus, and Temur Ascendency, along with 8 Spirit Guides. She just happened to draw the wrong half of the deck against me, though the deck seems fairly weak to discard. She said she had a lot of T1 kills, so it seems like she had some good matchups and was running above average. It was definitely a cool deck though!

Wow, that sounds even worse than my Chancellor of the Tangle / Hypergenesis deck. And that was an absolute nightmare. For its pilot.

[Battle7]

Congrats on the finish. How were the Carpets in SB?

They were good against the 1 Delver deck I played against. 3 was definitely too many, but I also played a below average amount of Delver decks. I could see cutting them all together if Cabal Rituals are played, but I still like the card.

[Bryant Cook]

I might be going to a Lotus event on Saturday. If I do, I'll likely be trying the Cabal Ritual over Empty list. It's been about two months since I've played TES in a legacy event, I just wish some of these artists I've shipped to would send stuff back already. Seriously, Pete Venters has had my Tendrils, Grapeshot, Massacre and Pithing Needles since mid-September (I've made contact with him and he says they're in a pile on his table waiting to be signed).

[ThomasDowd]

Hi guys does anyone explain me why ant decks are performing better than tes deck at major tournament? I mean, according to the placement lists i ve noticed that there s always an ant deck instead of a tes one. I m pro tes but i really don't understand this difference in the results. Ty :-)

ANT is much more linear. TES is a little less so and the window feels smaller a lot of the time. in my experience playing both my mistakes were less punished with ANT than TES

also better lucky than good plays a role with density of population

[Bryant Cook]

ANT is much more linear. TES is a little less so and the window feels smaller a lot of the time. in my experience playing both my mistakes were less punished with ANT than TES

also better lucky than good plays a role with density of population

I normally try to stay out of ANT vs TES discussions at this point since there's very little to gain. However, criticisms of decks based on how forgiving they are of your play mistakes doesn't really fly for me. You want to win events? Play tight, don't mess up. Regardless of which deck one chooses.

[vercadium]

I might be going to a Lotus event on Saturday. If I do, I'll likely be trying the Cabal Ritual over Empty list. It's been about two months since I've played TES in a legacy event, I just wish some of these artists I've shipped to would send stuff back already. Seriously, Pete Venters has had my Tendrils, Grapeshot, Massacre and Pithing Needles since mid-September (I've made contact with him and he says they're in a pile on his table waiting to be signed).

I just hope they're not sitting loose on his desk and warping like crazy. :(

[That nice guy]

We do have Void Snare for hitting outs. The problem with freeing SB slots by maining sb cards is that there are matchups where Chain of Vapor just doesn't matter or shouldn't matter. The "throw it under a mox" argument is pretty sketchy given that youre saying "you can just mulligan when its not useful". i want as few mulligans, literal or effective, as possible, since this deck decays really quickly on mulligans, unless you happen to mull into LEDs or other high-power cards

I take issue with this statement in particular. "Play-style" just isn't good reasoning. I get that Legacy has a lot of pet-deck mentality and preference rationale, but you shouldn't have a card in your deck because it "seems ok for you". There are situations where, among Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual, one is OBJECTIVELY better than the other, and a very small number of cases where theyre both equivalently good. If you take the likelihood of these various scenarios occurring and multiply them by their effective difference, you get the expected value of effectiveness for both cards, again, objective difference, not subjective. The odds that each EV is exactly the same is very, very, VERY unlikely and if one is even a fraction of a percent better, you should be playing that one, regardless of how you "feel" about it.

I think your right about the chain, but I was just considering it as a stall/other route to natural storm. I have a lot of prison in my meta (hence the SB spree) so I think a lot of my opponents learned that chalice on 2 decimates me. So I like having a MD answer after Ad N. It's a meta call, but a bad one.

As far as the "play style" reasoning goes I think you're right in theory, but I think either I didn't explain it clearly or you misunderstood. What I was getting at was, it depends how comfortable you are as a gambler. There are a lot of times when I'll have a decision where there's a higher probability of winning than losing in making a decision, but I have the alternative option of sculpting to hope things change. I personally like to go for it even if I think I only have a small percent advantage rather than wait. I think mox is better at this earlier rush strategy and therefor it fits my style better, since there will always be unknowns and likelihoods are not always clear.

[d0nkey]

I remember some number of months/years back we tried a 2 cabal ritual / 2 chrome mox split.

I also remember people not being too excited with the change. What's different this time around?

[wonderPreaux]

As far as the "play style" reasoning goes I think you're right in theory, but I think either I didn't explain it clearly or you misunderstood. What I was getting at was, it depends how comfortable you are as a gambler. There are a lot of times when I'll have a decision where there's a higher probability of winning than losing in making a decision, but I have the alternative option of sculpting to hope things change. I personally like to go for it even if I think I only have a small percent advantage rather than wait. I think mox is better at this earlier rush strategy and therefor it fits my style better, since there will always be unknowns and likelihoods are not always clear.

No, I think I understand what you're saying, I just think your reasoning is imperfect. For example, in the "go for it or don't" scenario you described, there is a statistically and objectively correct choice, it's just that to reach that answer you need immaculate understanding of the game state, or you'd need to play out the exact scenario over and over hundreds/thousands of times. A good gambler actually takes on as little variance as possible.

As far as Cabal Ritual vs. Chrome Mox, it's not as though Cabal is terrible at accelerating you in the early game, unthreshed, it still boosts mana by 1 and that is relevant. It's just a good bonus for PiF/tutor chains and I honestly think it's contributing more than a MD EtW. Removing a Chrome Mox is the next step as Rituals have to travel in at least pairs and the marginal value of the 2nd Rit is likely higher than the 3rd Mox.

re: what's different this time around. the difference here is that this time EtW was removed instead of Duress, and Bolts are appearing so much more in the format right now that divesting from Ad Nauseam while reducing variance by not having a 4 cmc card floating around in the main is a big deal.

[Lemnear]

I remember some number of months/years back we tried a 2 cabal ritual / 2 chrome mox split.

I also remember people not being too excited with the change. What's different this time around?

The difference is within the slots we replaced for the Cabals paired with the fact that we reduced the amount of rainbow lands in favor of more fetches which feed thresh. A significant problem with the previous list also was the self-inflicted damage, which we now removed the EtW for adressing the issue.

[laserstone]

How to approach the Miracles matchup? I'm playing the Cabal Rit list as of now, -1 pithing +1 decay. Going to be at an SCG soon, looking for some prep help.

[That nice guy]

How to approach the Miracles matchup? I'm playing the Cabal Rit list as of now, -1 pithing +1 decay. Going to be at an SCG soon, looking for some prep help.

Honestly, Miracles is a tough match. I played a black version tonight that ran Nethervoid and Etutor, we drew because of his lack of wins. Both games he first turn Etutors for cannonist. :( Here are the tips that work for me:

1. I've found that a natural storm chain is what usually gets me there after keeping a hand with Decay. Otherwise you want something super busted with duress effects to go off before CB hits.
2. Stay away from Empty if you can, but I have won with it in dire circumstances. I always side out Empty and always side in a 10drills. Throw Empty under Mox if you get stuck with it. I say this because Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Engineered Explosives, and possibly even energy field can ruin your day and even if you can flash back a Therapy they prolly have it lurking somewhere under top.
3. On the play Probe needle is really good against them. A lot of times I play against players that keep 1 landers just because they see a Force and something else good with Brainstorm. So you can name a fetch sometimes, it's only a small value added but it's value. Also see 4.
4. If they don't have Counter Balance on deck try to chain/decay their top at End of Turn so they can't float a counter, then punch through the next turn with hand disruption. This is why I personally like Needle better than Xantid, since it hits your other shit matches and still shuts down top. Needle does the same to 10Post when they board in 14 SB cards and try to hide them with top.
5. If they're not playing the RiP version, building a Past in Flames plan is good since you can flash it back after a counter. See below.
6. Bait with extra tutors. If infernal actually resolves get a ritual/rite to form a PiF plan. If wish resolves you can just grab the PiF to save you 2 mana on the next turn.
7. Siding out a copy of Thearapy isn't a bad plan as a wish target. I do it. Many times, you just need more answers.
8. On the play hand disruption is sweet, but if you're not on the play you want to save it if you have the decay.
9. I've won a game by using a Dark rit -> Ad N Eot, let it get countered, go to my turn Break Out.
10. Slow hands aren't necessarily bad! Yes their deck gets stronger as time goes by, but you also get to sculpt and draw.
11. I always like to keep in one copy of Mox, because if you can get a very early Ad N I want to be absolutely sure I can combo out. That said mox sux here otherwise because as the game goes on it gets worse. Therefore, I only have one in the deck to lessen my odds of seeing it naturally.
12. Some people swear by Carpet of Flowers, I'd like to have 1/2 but I just can't find space. Also, I have a standard for all of my SB cards where I ask myself, If things are looking grim and I think I'm going to lose, will starting with X or top-decking it change that? I like carpet, I really do, I just can't fit it compared to other cards.
13. Remember that UW is a deck all about having the right answers at the right time, think about what they don't have, and what will be hard to get. If you can try to go off on the first turn, may the odds be ever in your favor.

That said here is my board plan:
-3 Ponder
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Needle
+1 Chain
+1 Tendrils of Agony

Yeah, I know chain isn't the best, but seeing top is scary. See #4. Chain does hit Leyline, meddling, detention Sphere on artifacts/EE, and cannonist, ect, ect which I have seen UW bring in. That said, I'm thinking about stopping the chain shenanigans to put back a ponder since sculpting is sweet and I'll just bring the chain in if I see anything I just mentioned.

I'm having a tough time with this match-up too, so I'm open to criticism.

[Lemnear]

You can even board the Xantids in Addition to bitch-test your opponents remaining removal suit. EtW isn't necessarily bad unless you play against T1 SDT or the Ponder variants of Miracles; it's a fact that they cut within their creature removal to make space for SB cards and you can catch them with EtW. Depends on what your opponents hand looks like.

[Bryant Cook]

I there there's a real lack of understanding the sideboarding concepts on your side.

Chain of Vapor is awful here. If they have a counterbalance they'll likely counter it and if you target top, you're down a card and they're plus one. Not great.

I don't like siding out a protection spell in a control based match-up without bringing in other protection which is why it was acceptable when siding in Xantids. It's about remaining neutral while having higher impact cards.

These things said, I would likely side like this:

-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Xantid Swarm

This isn't a match-up where we need the additional mana from Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual will likely be hurt by them bringing in Rest in Peace. It's acceptable to side out a Therapy if bringing in other protection as it allows for Wish to essentially become a protection spell. Ponder is a flex spot. I don't believe you need to bring in Tendrils, I haven't seen too many Meddling Mages out of Miracles. If they do have them, we have Abrupt Decay. If you decide to bring in Tendrils, I'd likely side out another Ponder.

[Lemnear]

Found a neat gold uncommon in my random box yesterday evening. Got to test this as a sideboard tech.

[redhamjack]

So I'm happy to hear of more people getting onboard with Cabal Ritual. I've been running 2x of the CR for a few months now, including at the GP and I've had success with it. I have not cut EtW from the main, rather I opt to go -1 discard (6 total) - 1 land (12 main, sb tropical...I know the arguments for Bayou, just haven't found the time to test them myself yet) to run the 2 rituals.

I frequently cut EtW if I win with it game 1 because all of their hate for 1/1s comes in. I have won more game 1s than I can count on the back of EtW and I would not cut it from our 60 at this time. Moving it to the board games 2&3 is reasonable, but I love it game 1, especially with 4 therapies in the main.

Another point to consider is that randoms will see your Cabal Ritual g1 and side in graveyard hate that we simply don't care about. Cabal Ritual is my most frequently sided out card for this reason, and every time someone taps out t2 to play RIP against me I smile my ass off.

One question for you guys, what is your take on Defense Grid? I've found its a wrecking for UR builds that run super mana light, but I often hate paying 2 for it. Has anyone else tested with this card?



My list, for reference:

4 Ponder; 4 Brainstrom; 4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Infernal Tutor; 4 Burning Wish; 1 Ad Nauseam; 1 Empty the Warrens

4 Cabal Therapy; 2 Thoughtsieze

3 Chrome Mox; 4 Lotus Petal; 4 Lions Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual; 4 Rite of Flame; 2 Cabal Ritual

2 Misty Rainforest; 2 Polluted Delta; 2 Scalding Tarn; 2 Underground Sea; 2 Volcanic Island; 2 Gemstone Mine

SB:

1 Empty the Warrens; 1 Past In Flames; 1 Tendrils of Agony; 1 Infernal Tutor; 1 Massacare; 1 Shattering Spree; 1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay; 2 Xantid Swarm; 2 Pithing Needle/Defense Grid; 2 Chain of Vapor

[disgustipated]

I there there's a real lack of understanding the sideboarding concepts on your side.

Chain of Vapor is awful here. If they have a counterbalance they'll likely counter it and if you target top, you're down a card and they're plus one. Not great.

I don't like siding out a protection spell in a control based match-up without bringing in other protection which is why it was acceptable when siding in Xantids. It's about remaining neutral while having higher impact cards.

These things said, I would likely side like this:

-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Xantid Swarm

This isn't a match-up where we need the additional mana from Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual will likely be hurt by them bringing in Rest in Peace. It's acceptable to side out a Therapy if bringing in other protection as it allows for Wish to essentially become a protection spell. Ponder is a flex spot. I don't believe you need to bring in Tendrils, I haven't seen too many Meddling Mages out of Miracles. If they do have them, we have Abrupt Decay. If you decide to bring in Tendrils, I'd likely side out another Ponder.

I've had Chain of Vapor win me the game a few times in the past week versus Miracles when playing Doomsday. Granted, I can't side in Needle for Top when on DDFT. But if you Decay or Therapy away their Counterbalance (or they simply don't draw it), you can Duress/Therapy and then bounce their top so they can't have access to a counter via top post Duress/Therapy. Example: I Duress, he casts Brainstorm (presumably to hide FoW), Brainstorm resolves, and I Chain of Vapor his Top with Duress still on the stack. This might be a corner case, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

The jury is still out on whether or not Xantid Swarm is worth bringing in against Miracles. It's nice when they side out creature removal and you can slip it in on T1 before CB drops. I find the problem is when you have to fish for AD for a few turns they've managed to gather a plethora of counters since you haven't been able to cast any discard spells. XS might make those useless; so you don't have to AD CB and then try to work through their counters before they slam another CB.

[Bryant Cook]

I've had Chain of Vapor win me the game a few times in the past week versus Miracles when playing Doomsday. Granted, I can't side in Needle for Top when on DDFT. But if you Decay or Therapy away their Counterbalance (or they simply don't draw it), you can Duress/Therapy and then bounce their top so they can't have access to a counter via top post Duress/Therapy. Example: I Duress, he casts Brainstorm (presumably to hide FoW), Brainstorm resolves, and I Chain of Vapor his Top with Duress still on the stack. This might be a corner case, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

The jury is still out on whether or not Xantid Swarm is worth bringing in against Miracles. It's nice when they side out creature removal and you can slip it in on T1 before CB drops. I find the problem is when you have to fish for AD for a few turns they've managed to gather a plethora of counters since you haven't been able to cast any discard spells. XS might make those useless; so you don't have to AD CB and then try to work through their counters before they slam another CB.

And I've won a game against burn by attacking with two Simian Spirit Guides for four turns. That doesn't mean it was right or what we should be aiming to do.

I fail to comprehend why you would want to put yourself in a position where you need a bounce spell and a discard spell in order to deal with the top card of their deck, when you can just play Xantid Swarm. If they leave in removal, there's only two of them in your deck that you can shuffle away. If you don't draw them, they have dead draws in their removal. Xantid is incredibly effective considering most lists are siding or playing Flusterstorms paired with Spell Pierce. Not to mention that your example only works if they don't have anything else doing on in their hand which is rarely the case.

[disgustipated]

And I've won a game against burn by attacking with two Simian Spirit Guides for four turns. That doesn't mean it was right or what we should be aiming to do.

I fail to comprehend why you would want to put yourself in a position where you need a bounce spell and a discard spell in order to deal with the top card of their deck, when you can just play Xantid Swarm. If they leave in removal, there's only two of them in your deck that you can shuffle away. If you don't draw them, they have dead draws in their removal. Xantid is incredibly effective considering most lists are siding or playing Flusterstorms paired with Spell Pierce. Not to mention that your example only works if they don't have anything else doing on in their hand which is rarely the case.

I'm not sure if 2-3 sideboard slots are sufficient for nullifying the top 3 of their deck. I feel this is a weakness of having strictly discard since Silence was dropped. I don't see the connection between SSG beatdown and the Chain/Discard combo. If you have 7 discard spells (11 including BW?), its not uncommon to find yourself in situation where 1 of 2 CoVs are in your hand while also holding a discard spell. CoV beats hate bears for U and has the added benefit of adding to storm for natural Tendrils (since ETW isn't always optimal versus decks that pack hate bears).

When I played Miracles, or when I am playing with Silence and Top, my sole mission is to float counters on top of my deck to ambush discard dependent combo. I think this is a common occurrence and a situation we can't overcome without running important spells blindly into potential Top draws or drawing 1 of 2 or 3 Swarms that may or may not be killed by lingering removal spells post SB.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm not sure if 2-3 sideboard slots are sufficient for nullifying the top 3 of their deck. I feel this is a weakness of having strictly discard since Silence was dropped. I don't see the connection between SSG beatdown and the Chain/Discard combo. If you have 7 discard spells (11 including BW?), its not uncommon to find yourself in situation where 1 of 2 CoVs are in your hand while also holding a discard spell. CoV beats hate bears for U and has the added benefit of adding to storm for natural Tendrils (since ETW isn't always optimal versus decks that pack hate bears).

When I played Miracles, or when I am playing with Silence and Top, my sole mission is to float counters on top of my deck to ambush discard dependent combo. I think this is a common occurrence and a situation we can't overcome without running important spells blindly into potential Top draws or drawing 1 of 2 or 3 Swarms that may or may not be killed by lingering removal spells post SB.

I was pointing out an example of situations that are rare that don't really matter.

We have Needles and Decays to answer Top, in addition to Xantid Swarm if that's what is required of us. Siding in Chain of Vapor is just worse than all of these options. Not to mention that we're not running Swarm for just top, while it's a benefit, the card is an all-star in other match-ups as well (See: Reanimator & Sneak Show).