All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Stormcount 6 is pretty much deadly in a decent constructed Legacy Mind's Desire Storm deck. Believe me this

Unbanning Desire is stupid ... and I say this as a storm player

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd love to Desire into Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Progenitus, Iona, Grisly.
Heck, I'd love to Desire into 12 dragons as well. That and Dragonstrom would be a fun (casual) deck.

[Quasim0ff]

Are people discussing a potential unban of Mind's Desire?

Have you read the card!?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

32/32 brainstorms at the invitational in the top-8. Move along everybody, nothing to see here.

[Lord Seth]

32/32 brainstorms at the invitational in the top-8. Move along everybody, nothing to see here.

I agree on moving along. Invitationals are basically useless as a datapoint for either the Standard or Legacy metagame because so much of what decided that Top 8 had absolutely nothing to do with what Legacy deck they were playing.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I agree on moving along. Invitationals are basically useless as a datapoint for either the Standard or Legacy metagame because so much of what decided that Top 8 had absolutely nothing to do with what Legacy deck they were playing.

Yeah I wasn't paying enough attention to the tourney structure. Top8 isn't even legacy so it's pointless to look at.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Ban Brainstorm unban Frantic Search. It's the only way.

[Nuke is Good]

Are people discussing a potential unban of Mind's Desire?

Have you read the card!?

I'd like Worldgorger Dragon added to the mix then for shits and giggles.

[Lemnear]

I'd like Worldgorger Dragon added to the mix then for shits and giggles.

Well, you can at least shortcut Gorger or Penalty the player if he durdles. I'm not convinced the card presents still a problem for tournament play without Bazaar of Baghdad setting up the combo and filtering for the kill. Gorger plus Animate Dead is "just" infinite mana, if we ignore the remaining Problem of it forcing a draw unless you have a second creature in your graveyard to target. I'm sure the later still outweights the potential benefits of seeing it back legal. Forced draws are a no-go.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, you can at least shortcut Gorger or Penalty the player if he durdles. I'm not convinced the card presents still a problem for tournament play without Bazaar of Baghdad setting up the combo and filtering for the kill. Gorger plus Animate Dead is "just" infinite mana, if we ignore the remaining Problem of it forcing a draw unless you have a second creature in your graveyard to target. I'm sure the later still outweights the potential benefits of seeing it back legal. Forced draws are a no-go.

I'm pretty sure Nuke had a Worldgorger Dragonstorm Desire hybrid in mind when thinking about WGD.
Wow. I think I'll build that just for fun. Multiple WGDs each removing everything all over again and again and again...

[ReAnimator]

This is the 6 lists that went 8-0 or 7-1 at the invitational, for those complaining about lists and things from the invitational. Still somewhat irrelevant because of the structure.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...decklists.html

[tescrin]

Not sure if this is a thing really but I noticed this:

fermtgbvb asked: I know you are not the person who is in charge of this, but isn't there any way we can "give feedback" or "contact" someone who is in charge of the B&R list? I feel like it should be a bidirectional decision and not unilateral, I believe players probably have most knowledge about eternal formats and should be listened to.

You can always send me emails through the link in my columns and I will pass them along to the people who make the decision. I will stress that those people very much listen to the public and are always interested to hear what the players think when deciding what to do.

Maybe the circular discussions are ignored since we don't actually involve anyone who matters and because no sane person can spend very long in these threads.


To the people mocking my mention that combo decks could survive on looting effects; I:
A) Did not suggest banning brainstorm. FFS.
B) Am merely pointing out that Looting is one possible way to fix the issue *were it banned*. Certainly one can use other cantrips. IMO; a deck like Storm which already uses the grave could instead dump garbage in the bin; as could other resilient combos.

My argument is *solely* that combo can survive just fine with or without BS; as evidenced by Modern and Vintage if nothing else. I don't think Grave-hate would be any more effective on "Loot storm" than it would be on current storm, other than Loot Storm being more convenient to go the grave route. Storm would still have tutor/wish chains to get around the grave hate and keeping a hand based on a Tormod's Crypt sucks if you don't hate on the chain.

@PasterofMuppets
You misspelled your name. I think the mods can fix it.

[death]

For reanimator, loot gets a yes. For storm and the rest, it will be sensei (majority already run Ponder) since it digs deeper and card quality is important. If they ban Brainstorm, be prepared to face an inititial slew of storm and reanimator until people start overloading their sideboard with hate.

Edit:
Am I the only one who thinks U/R Delver is overpowered? They have the most agressive and undercosted beats, tons of direct damage, removal, and red blast against blue combo. I expect a rock, paper, scissors format of U/R Delver, Counterbalance and TNN-blade for a while.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I still feel that banning fetchlands is the best way to change the Legacy metagame, people would tell me I'm an idiot. I'm not saying it, but I will strongly imply it. Nerfs half of the modern Tempo shell without removing the core cards (like Brainstorm) from other strategies. Yes certain combo lists would take a hit too, but artifact lands are banned in Modern to stop from over-enabling Affinity. Fetchlands over-enable low-threat high-tempo decks by hitting two points of consistency at once.

@PasterofMuppets
You misspelled your name. I think the mods can fix it.

"Paster" would imply that I paste muppets to things and wouldn't rhyme.

[tescrin]

Am I the only one who thinks U/R Delver is overpowered? They have the most agressive and undercosted beats, tons of direct damage, removal, and red blast against blue combo. I expect a rock, paper, scissors format of U/R Delver, Counterbalance and TNN-blade for a while.

There are a lot of people calling it "The best delver deck in the format", which.. I don't know. It's not good at what Delver is supposed to be good at (Disrupting combo) and it completely folds to Maverick as far as I've seen. The issue is that the deck is the SneakShow of Delver decks; I.E. you can pilot it with an uneven amount of mistakes/experience compared to it's cousin decks. It's more a Burn deck with better game against Delver and friends than it is a Delver deck; and as such is very linear and easy to use. My first go with it I was easily ~4-1 against an experienced RUG Delver pilot (who's gone to 9th at an SCG) and 2-0'd a Zombardment deck (who's gone Top8 a time or two) without having ever goldfished the deck once; in fact I think that day of practice was my first Legacy Brainstorm/FoW experience as well (which is to say; it's not my experience running blue decks that made UR Delver run smoothly.)

This is all a long-winded way to say "UR Delver is Burn 2.0." The lines of play *can* be more complex (G2 against zombardment I had been stuck holding a trio of dazes over the game. I was way behind, but landed a second swiftspear, double-bolted while triple dazing my self and doing a clean 18 in a turn.) I think of it as a Burn deck that trades game against non-blue fair decks for game against Delver variants. I certainly don't consider it much better (if at all) against combo than Burn.

All that said, it's flipped the format a bunch because it is a smooth deck to run, beats up on Delvers, and has reasonable game against the field without as much of the stigma; countering it is paramount for decks to do and I think the field has scattered to deal with it and TC in general while combo is mopping up.

"Paster" would imply that I paste muppets to things and wouldn't rhyme.

Citing hasty typos: The thinking man's argument.
Good sir, I mean to imply that you mixed up the first letters of Metallica's CD name, Master of Puppets; which you clearly did not intend. Rightfully surprised you overlooked this I was merely suggesting you get a mod to fix your unfortunate name before too many people notice the egregious error. I hope we can remain best friends.

[Dice_Box]

Perhaps he just sees it as his duty to bring forth the good word of Jim Henson to our felt friends?

I think UR Delver is kind of an affront to Delver as a whole. Granted, I hate the card, but UR these days is so far away from what the "Delver" deck does that I honestly feel it should be called "UR Pyro".

The thing is, the Delver name holds firm regardless of if it is deserved. The RUG list in Vintage is still called Delver even though it normally cuts one or two copies for other cards. So while Delver himself may not be the star of the show any longer, you can sell movie tickets on his cameo and advertising is better for it

[Grillo]

There are a lot of people calling it "The best delver deck in the format", which.. I don't know. It's not good at what Delver is supposed to be good at (Disrupting combo) and it completely folds to Maverick as far as I've seen.

Just a few comments. Don't take them too seriously as I haven't played much legacy in the last few months.

I don't think the deck folds to Maverick. Specially when you play 2 chain lightnings main.
It's true that a resolved Thalia in the first couple of turns will ruin your day. But past that, I think the match is pretty even.

Also, I think that it's true UR Delver is bad at stopping combo, but only in game one. There are lots of sideboard options for games 2/3. Still, loosing game one is a biggie.

The issue is that the deck is the SneakShow of Delver decks; I.E. you can pilot it with an uneven amount of mistakes/experience compared to it's cousin decks. It's more a Burn deck with better game against Delver and friends than it is a Delver deck; and as such is very linear and easy to use. My first go with it I was easily ~4-1 against an experienced RUG Delver pilot (who's gone to 9th at an SCG) and 2-0'd a Zombardment deck (who's gone Top8 a time or two) without having ever goldfished the deck once; in fact I think that day of practice was my first Legacy Brainstorm/FoW experience as well (which is to say; it's not my experience running blue decks that made UR Delver run smoothly.)

This.. so much truth in there.

Also, trying to stay "on topic"..... Ban Delver.

[FoolofaTook]

I'ma do my best not to turn this into a wall of text. Bear with me.

7 years ago Legacy had a varied meta that had a wide range of lists in play, many of which were top tier or close to that. Tribal Aggro, Combo, Control of many sorts Straight Aggro were all represented in the meta and the cards they used to create the effects were wide and varied.

Tribal Aggro: Goblins, Merfolk, Affinity (well, artifacts are a tribe, sort of)
Combo: Belcher, Iggy Pop, Spanish Inquisition, Aggro Loam, High Tide
Control: The Rock, Landstill, Quinn, Stax, Enchantress,
Straight Aggro: Burn, Deadguy Ale, Tempo Threshold (yes it was very much an aggro list in 2007, like an unrefined Canadian Threshold), Dredge

All of these lists were capable of showing up and sweeping a tourney on the right day and all of them did. There was no best list in the meta and more importantly there was no best shell. There wasn't a group of 12 cards that you built around to have the best chance to win. Each of the lists above shared at most 4 to 8 common cards with the other lists in the archetype, with LED, StP and Lightning Bolt showing up at the top tables as often as Brainstorm did and usually not in the same lists with it.

This was a good meta to play in. It was balanced and while some lists (Goblins primarily) always threatened to become "the" best list none of them ever quite got there. You could dust off any of the lists above and make a 1 or 2 card change in it and you were likely playing something competitive on the day.

Today in place of that meta we have:

Combo: Elves, ANT, TES, S&T
Control: Miracles, Blade variants, D&T
Straight Aggro: Delver, Burn

I'm not going to differentiate Delver into the multiple lists that play it because they all share the same shell of 20+ cards alongside Delver. I will note that many Blade variants incorporate Delver as a win-con.

The point is that we're down from 15-20 (I know I missed some in 2007) tier 1 or near tier 1 lists to about 9 lists with some fudging for the Delver lists because most of them actually have 4 to 8 cards that are different than the common Delver shell.

In 2007 there were a half dozen lists, maybe a third of the tier 1 meta, that used Brainstorm and only 1 that incorporated anything like the blue shell as we know it now (that being early Tempo Threshold).

Today all top tier lists (apologies to MUD but it ain't top tier) but Elves, D&T and Burn incorporate Brainstorm and at least 12 other cards of the blue shell. The meta routinely produces 6 to 8 lists in the top 8 that include 4 Brainstorm and at least 8 other cards from the blue shell.

This is a horrific reality in today's Legacy environment. We've become compressed into very few playable lists outside the blue shell because the blue shell is too good at what it does. It has taken over the meta and squeezed out most of the archetypes that would otherwise be viable by replacing them with a blue shell variant of the archetype.

It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers only Brainstorm is the lead doppelganger and it's blue shell mob has taken down the crowd one by one.

[Lemnear]

7 years ago? You mean during the time counterbalance and Tarmogoyf ruled the format? I believe factual errors are evident within your post, sir.

Flames replaced. -zilla

[Barook]

It would be interesting to compare the percentages of blue decks now and then if we had data available from back then - because it certainly increased quite a bit from 52% before Delver to 70+% where we are now.

Has the format always been so heavily blue-centric (notwithstanding blue mistakes like Flash and MM) or has this been a rather recent development due to blue-related OP cards?