Yes you can. Cumulative upkeep is a triggered ability, which means it can be hit with Stifle or otherwise responded to if that's what you want to do.Originally Posted by Hencules
Relevant rules text:
702.21a Cumulative upkeep is a triggered ability that imposes an increasing cost on a permanent. "Cumulative upkeep [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent is on the battlefield, put an age counter on this permanent. Then you may pay [cost] for each age counter on it. If you don't, sacrifice it." If [cost] has choices associated with it, each choice is made separately for each age counter, then either the entire set of costs is paid, or none of them is paid. Partial payments aren't allowed.
Example: A creature has "Cumulative upkeep {W} or {U}" and two age counters on it. When its ability next triggers and resolves, the creature's controller puts an age counter on it and then may pay {W}{W}{W}, {W}{W}{U}, {W}{U}{U}, or {U}{U}{U} to keep the creature on the battlefield.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Yes there is. You pretty much described it. Upkeep trigger goes on the stack, in response crop rotate a separate land into Vesuva copying Chasm, let the upkeep trigger resolve and choose not to pay the upkeep trigger and sac it. You don't have to keep paying for Cumulative Upkeep if you don't want to.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
Even better, put the cumulative upkeep trigger on the stack, crop rotate something else into a Vesuva copying Glacial Chasm, sacrifice the original Chasm to the ETB trigger of the Vesuva copy, then choose not to pay the cumulative upkeep. Remember that the Vesuva copy still requires a horrendous payment of one of your lands on top of not tapping for mana, so make sure not to lose an additional land to this situation.
As fancy as the play may seem, I've never actually managed to come back into a game where I had to employ it, so your mileage may vary. Glacial Chasm is a harsh mistress on your mana situation.
Often times I never pay the upkeep. I use gc usually to live out 1 more turn just to "get there."
Games where I'm forced into it early are often just doomed from the start. It's a stall tactic not a game plan
I've been playing this list for these same reasons:
Decklist:
4x Primeval Titan
1x Kozilek
1x Emrakul
1x Ulamog
3x Candelabra
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
3x Expedition Map
4x Crop
4x Force of will
4x stifle
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce (FLex Slot)
3x Tropical Island
4x Fetch lands
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
2x Island
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Tabernacle
1x Eye of Ugin
I like stifle for wasteland protection obviously, but it has a variety of uses as a stall tactic. Having 4 in the deck might enable some early offensive capabilities against opponent fetchlands if you feel well protected. Most recently I switched out repeal for the 3 pierce and 1 bojuka bog (facing lots of dredge, finally got annoyed enough to kill it game 1). This week has been rough though, getting trampled by just about everything. However, every now and again you can stifle the first couple of fetchlands out, and get a decent lead.
Don't you miss having access to Show and Tell? Once I identify some matchups, it's one of the card I'll look for in the first turns as it allows me to win quick.
Davek, question about your list. Through several iterations of testing, adjusting and testing some more, I arrived at the exact same list. However, I felt like I couldn't win anymore after the opponent got to resolve Treasure Cruise, so I decided to play it myself.
Don't you mis the raw power of treasure cruise? I play it three times, which allows me to find it later in the game to get back. The whole deal of twelve post is to sacrifice early tempo for an amazing late game, but if they're playing cruise and we're not, this difference in tempo cannot be caught up anymore. Playing a T4 or even T3 cruise allows you to regain that.
What's your opinion on it?
this deck has arguably one of the best late games in the meta, the issue is surviving long enough to get there. Does treasure cruise really help getting there? Basically what you are telling me is that you can spend t3 or T4 setting up a better T4 or T5...are you really losing games that last into t5?
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
The problem is a grindy deck like BUG delver or Shardless BUG. They'll power out stuff and I can't keep up after they've casted cruise. Maybe I've messed up long before that point?
Thing is; just when I feel I weathered the storm, they cast cruise and subsequently cast hymn and a brainstorm. That's a lot of stuff to deal with. Floating a TC on top allows me to get back without needing "Titan-mana".
Its possible I just never got the hand of using it. Seems like it always got countered, or show and tell into an opponents detention sphere, or something else that doesn't work out. It just annoyed me to no end and quite frankly I hate the idea of putting opponent cards into play.
Maybe I'll give it another shot in the flex slot.
This is a build I have been messing around with recently. went 3-1 at a local event, and the 1 loss I should have won.
// Lands
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [US] Show and Tell
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [AL] Force of Will
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
Still trying to fit a 2nd Relic into the main, But I really enjoy this list.
Would Crypt be better in the Relic slot, or is it the Scrabbling Claws effect on Relic that's the relevant one?
The point of Relic is that it ultimately cycles, unlike Tormod's Crypt. It's just a minor mana bump on the way, so it's not that bad in matchups where it doesn't do anything.
My issue with Show and Tell lately hasn't been that it gets countered (that's why it's there in the first place!) but rather that it gets countered by REBs and Pyroblasts, cards that are hardpressed to find other good spells to counter in our deck. I simply felt that them Pyroblasting our SnTs does not offer another layer of protection (or speed) to our Titans, and without SnTs you can even punish them for playing mostly irrelevant answers. I've quite enjoyed moving away from blue in testing, although some matchups got trickier (not necessarily worse), with my non counterspell based sideboard. The list is not really at a point where I'd be confident in playing it in a tournament, but I'm enjoying a GSZ approach quite a bit right now.
As for the Treasure Cruise dilemma, I've just found that attacking the big cruise decks (essentially all the Pyromancer/Gitaxian Probe builds) at the Treasure Cruise point just doesn't work too well. Their lists are designed to fight over Cruise on both sides of the table, so if you bog down to try to counter/preempt theirs or cast some of you own, you have to be absolutely sure you're not just messing with your game plan to play worse at a game they want you to play. In reality, the UR Delver and UWR Stoneforge decks play a surprisingly low number of cards (both in absolute count and in variety) that, ultimately, have an impact on the battlefield or the game, so that's where/how I've been trying to attack them in the format for a while now. Overwork them, play meaningful threats or broad answers to their gameplan (things like EE, Chalice, Elephant Grass and the likes we've been using in this deck for a while now) and you'll soon find that they can quickly run out of proper interaction. Yes, they can look at a lot more cards than you do, but if you are proactively playing to the board, most of the cards they see don't actually do something about that. If you want to see that plan in action, check out the Gerard Fabiano vs Brian Braun Duin match from the SCG Player's Championship last weekend, where the UWR Stoneforge deck gets utterly demolished solely by playing good cards and not wasting time casting Ponder.
Of course your mileage may vary, but playing direct, proactive magic has been by far my best solution to a treasure cruise meta so far, not just in this deck but pretty much in every list in our gauntlet. Turn 1 Ponder is a trap I don't want to fall into right now.
is there a list of land protection spells anywhere?
sacred ground
teferi's response
life from the loam
skyshroud blessing
crop rotation
crucible of worlds
any other actual viable or niche ones?
also, has anyone considered working with chalice of the void heavily? if so: what sac outlet would you use so you can still play the 1 cost spells that are essential, like crop rotation, for example? i am currently trying out ancient grudge + intuition + commune with the gods. engineered explosives also lets me kill it for 2 mana, so i'm using that as a 1 of, as well. any other elegant, and hopefully DIVERSE ways of removing your own chalice from play that anyone has thought of?
As always. Venser.
You could use Hurkyl's Recall for a reset on Chalice, or you can use Master Transmuter, although that's considerably weirder.
Merry Christmas! And apparently, here's the real Ugin:
7 starting loyalty and an out-of-the-box board wipe if you want it...and a reverse-Bolas ult if you get there. Not a lot to complain about here.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Broken.
Gg ramping to this. Wiping the opp board and putting 2 titans and and emmy ok the field.
Noice!!!! This is really nuts for my Mud and Turbo Eldrazi decks.Merry Christmas! And apparently, here's the real Ugin:
7 starting loyalty and an out-of-the-box board wipe if you want it...and a reverse-Bolas ult if you get there. Not a lot to complain about here.
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