Even though I have no experience with Pod lists, I would slam in 1-2 Sylvan Libraries, especially without you playing any Deeds. The card is just too good.Originally Posted by Brael
Hey guys, been away for a while. I'm here to ask your thoughts about Rule of Law in Junk lists. I know it's a little counterproductive with Deed, but I think it could be a solid SB plan against certain POS combo decks.
Also, what's the state of Junk Fit now? Are people still comboing with Angel/Feeder?
I've been on the Punishing Jund plan for a while , but it's sorta lost its appeal after losing to storm so many times.
The problem I'm having with such a large spell count is that Pod needs creatures for the toolbox, and you need enough to chain one creature into another. It's not like GSZ where it can get any creature at any time. While GSZ can count as extra copies of those creatures it still dilutes your creature count. It's all theory on my end (and it applied to Modern, not Legacy) but I had come to the conclusion that 20 creatures is the absolute minimum. 8 manadorks, 3 at each CMC 2-5, more is better. Pair that with 21 lands and you have 19 spells, minus 8 for Pod/Cabal Therapy and that leaves you 11 slots but it seems to me like 20 creatures is just too few.
Well, my thought right now is to run a single Hierarch, if I really need it I can GSZ for it, but more importantly I can Ranger of Eos for it (among other cards). Are there other good 1 drop toolbox creatures? DRS, Noble, and Mother of Runes seems to me like a nice set of options to find, plus it lets me pod 3 to 4, find a 1, and then pod to 2.Exalted sounds nice and all, but you really do not want to rely on having more creatures on the board that "need" each other. If Exalted is your thing, then you need to build a deck around it to power this out.
Can you explain this a bit more? I can see the logic in adding a Stoneforge Mystic but Voice seems to me like it would be pretty good in a field that doesn't really use a whole lot of large board wipes and is full of counters. Do I just need to run a bunch of SFM to hit it consistently or is it something I could try and pod for later and just run 1?For this reason i would also stay away from Voice of Resurgence as your CMC 2 drop. Junk offers Stoneforge Mystic. Ones it gets Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull you can sac SFM for POD anyway. (Endstep dig up SFM, dig up equip, untap, drop equip and fetch a 3 drop). Batterskull vs Batterskull is always better then a X/X that relies on the rest of the board.
I'm not too worried about winning at this point. We just had a store open locally that ended up finding something like 30 wastelands in a box of bulk land so they're now doing weekly tournaments with Wastelands and prizes for the next few months. I would of course like to win a few of those but I'm more interested in just getting into the format and I don't see it as too terribly likely since they're full proxy tournaments so I expect a lot of tier 1 proxy decks (opposed to me actually building the deck so I have it elsewhere), I realize going in that this type of deck is the sort of thing you need atleast a year with to be any good... it's the same for Modern Pod actually, probably more than a year really since I have to learn the format plus the deck.POD can be really wonky, clunky, slow and whatnot. But that does not change the fact that POD is a really awesome card and lets you do crazy stuff. For me, i would really enjoy playing a deck like this while getting into legacy and learn the format this way knowing that i would win anything at this point anyway.
This is a good point, so the question becomes what do I cut? What you've suggested changes the curve significantly. I need to add 2 GSZ, increase the 2 drops, and add Batterskull/Jitte, that's 7 cards. I could cut a 1 drop (probably DRS #4 if I plan to do the 1 drop toolbox and have a Hierarch as a dork), 2 4 drops, and a 5 drop. That still leaves me looking for 3 cards.Ok so you have 10x 1 CMC, 4x 2 CMC, 5x 3 CMC, 6x 4 CMC and 3x 5 CMC. i Would say that you have a very big risk you mess up your own curve while trying to POD to bigger answers. Especcially in you CMC 2 range a total of 4 is asking for trouble. 2 CMC is propably the most important CMC since you will often be starting from there. Plus in Junk you have acces to Stoneforge Mystic which serves a huge role in assembling board presence (Batterskull, Jitte).
Also, I can't seem to get behind Volrath's Stronghold. It just doesn't feel right to me to play 21 lands with 2 colorless. Maybe if I played it as the 22nd land, but that means a fourth cut and I'm just not sure what that cut is.
Based on what you've said here's how it looks now but I'm at 61 (though I kept the VoR). I remember people arguing for Pod to run 61 in the thread in the past (I think it was the old thread?), not sure I agree with that but I'm not certain on the cut here. Also, I'm not sure on the second Bayou, with the deck being mostly GW I'm not so sure that's needed. I know fetching Forest is usually pretty important in fetches but I found Marsh Flats with a 10 fetch setup to work well in Modern, so it seemed like a good place to start here.
21 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 25
1 Mother of Runes
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Restoration Angel
1 Siege Rhino
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Spells 8
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
Enchantment 2
2 Sylvan Library
Artifact 5
3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Last edited by Brael; 01-04-2015 at 09:47 PM.
I really like the idea of Library, especially if I'm dropping to 3 Pods. How many shuffle effects (fetch+GSZ) do I generally want with Library?
I don't know if there's a general rule of thumb for it, but depending on my list (PFire or GB) I play between 6 and 8 fetchlands, 4 GSZ and 4 Explorer (and a Primeval Titan) as potential shuffle effects for Library or Top.
I don't have to much time to give a long answer, but...
I realise that i made an error calculating my own number of cards. Something that i seem to be doing pretty often building NicFit lists is forgetting to add 4 Cabal Therapy and find it out after i worked out the rest. So that means i must admit that adding 8(ish) removal/disruption spells is to shortsighted. That being said finding a good balance between spells and creature count along with Pod is key here. There is a list that perfomered well not to long ago run by another Source member which i will look up for you later. This list had a pretty low creature count compared to most other Pod lists and focused on attacking a more specific meta.
As for Stoneforge Mystic versus Voice of Resurgence. What is very important, as i wrote earlier, is 1. that creatures have to make impact on the board and 2. don't rely on other cards to be effective. To me Voice of Resurgence relies heavily on your own board state, which makes it unreliable. Plus the tokens are just vannilla's. NicFit generally needs creatures to be doing something in order to change the (opponents) board to turn the game around. I often see myself losing if creatures do nothing. hence can't gain life, can't gain card advantage, remove other creatures or stop flyers, etc.
Opponents can also choose to play around its token generating effect while finding removal to keep to board small. While Stoneforge Mystic on its own is just a 1/2 vanilla it does fetch up a Batterskull and can put it into play. After that it is just POD fodder, but in that situation you can dig up a solid 3 drop AND attack with a 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink that is pretty hard to remove. This just wins games. Also having access to 3/4 Stoneforge Mystics creates situations where you don't have to rely on POD. This makes it harder for your opponent to hate out your engine and control your board.
Edit: This pretty much sums up how i feel about Voice of Resurgence.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d.php?p=859367
Last edited by Bobmans; 01-06-2015 at 05:49 AM.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
@Brael
Junk POD lists for reference.
This is the spells heavy list i was talking about played by Ralf
Just follow the link most of the list is in France, but it sould translate enough to know what is what.
A list from Qweerios that looks alike, but is actually older.
Also a more standard list that i really like and use as a reference also from Qweerios.
I am in love with the idea of Junk Nic Fit and being able to play Pernicious Deed. The card is so good. Could someone post/link a proven list that uses Pernicious Deed, as I have no experience to speak of with a if Fit and am sure I will screw this up by playing 3 Sylvan Library or something...
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Thoughtseize
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cranial Extraction (no Massacre since I knew there was no DnT in the room)
Dang, CMC 7 is just 1 mana to far for PFire.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Meh anyway as he does not bring anything to the board.
Dang, CMC 7 is just 1 mana to far for PFire.
6/4 flying, trample, double strike on attack is nothing to sneeze at. Probably should have been cmc 5 anyway.
As for cmc 7 i tried out charnelhoard wurm the other day. 7 mana is a bitch, but if this creature attacks it does exactly what you expect. Pretty awesome.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
If we are looking at CMC 7 or 8 go for PW. Ugin, the spirit dragon is the way to go. But we will need a very different main to cope with him.
Still, dreaming a bit is nice. I guess MUD or turbo Eldrazi will make better fun out of him. What a pity
Edit: I'll post my latest BUG fit list tomorrow, for those interested. I spent 15 days tweaking it with 6 hours a day of paper magic on average.
How do you handle the combo MU without REB/Pyroblast? Have you had any experience playing Rule of Law?
I'm on the fence about sticking with Jund or moving into Junk. Can you attest to the superiority of one over the other?
So, so tired of losing to storm.
For my version (stoneforge fit) I have the Teeg main, ooze and a DRS main.
For storm matchup: 2 thoughtseize, a surgical, a canonist, a dryad miltant and a sword of feast and famine in the board.
For big monsters: 1 humility, 1 ashen rider
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Hi. I'm bit bored with my junkblade playing so linear and I want to sell bobs, karakas, maze and kotrs switch to nic fit. I'm undecided which way to choose.
Junk - get siege rhinos and i'm thinking about archangel of thune + spike feeder also gaddock and sigarda is it enough against combos? (already I own bayou and scrubland)
Jund - go into punishing fire route. Are Slaughter games and discard enough against combo?
I love decks which have typically about 50/50 most matchups. Which one would you choose?
Thanks for all those lists, I appreciate it. From what I'm reading it sounds like Junk Pod doesn't really work which is a shame. I would still like to try it but I'm not going to have a developed meta to get good testing in for awhile, and while I have a lot of ideas I'm inexperienced in Legacy so many of those ideas probably aren't workable in practice. A couple weeks back I ordered most of the cards for BUG Pod (in Modern we experiment a lot with adding blue, no one has ever pulled it off, but I decided to pull the trigger on getting the cards to give it more tournament testing) and those carry over to BUG so I think I'll focus on that starting with the Zach Schultz list in the primer. I am really liking the Sylvan Library idea mentioned before though... do you think it's unreasonable in BUG to run Sylvan Library over Brainstorm given no FoW at the moment and that Brainstorm is often only a 2 of in the first place?
That looks very similar to this, which I think is a freaking awesome list, and may get me to finally play Nic Fit. Ugh, I swore I'd take a break from grindy in the trenches midrange decks. [corleone]Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.[/corleone] Oh well, Bayous gotta do something.
I've played my fair share of Punishing Jund in a meta riddled with combo, and I can say that the win/loss ratio is upsetting. Even with discard and REB storm can win on turn 2. If you live long enough to play Slaughter Games you're fine, but getting to 4 mana in a hurry is a glaring weakness. I'm even considering switching to Junk to have access to Teeg and a combo of my own.
That said, in a "fair" meta, Punishing Fire is fking amazing. Kills DRS, SFM, JTMS, opponent's face, almost all of D&T, etc etc. I say it's largely dependent on your meta.
Have you found this adequate for storm? I feel like I'd get steamrolled with such few hate cards
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