All B/R update speculation.

[Richard Cheese]

Please no. This is hillarious to read. So many flawed arguments, and wrongfully taken lines of argumentation.

Also WotC R&D is totally reading right now. In fact, I think Richard Garfield himself is a regular visitor to The Source, and will probably step in and do something if we all bitch and moan enough.

[FoolofaTook]

I am legitimately curious what decks we get back that aren't still a mile worse than a stoneblade deck that fixes its already consistent draws with Preordain and Serum Visions instead of BS and Ponder. Now, granted, there are ripple effects. Aggro gains some ground by not getting terminused, obviously, but those decks still seem poorly positioned against a format that glomps onto Esperblade. "Those other lists" are hardly head and shoulders better than anything, though certainly some of them are tier 1.

We get Junk back, more than just Maverick. We get Suicide Bw back. We probably get Goblins back with some updates. It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey. We might even get some of the more control centric lists back once Miracles isn't 10x better than any of them.

The meta has been so constrained by a few lists over the last several years.

[Dice_Box]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rbh59wdCEnc

[Hoojo]

We get Junk back, more than just Maverick. We get Suicide Bw back. We probably get Goblins back with some updates. It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey. We might even get some of the more control centric lists back once Miracles isn't 10x better than any of them.

The meta has been so constrained by a few lists over the last several years.

Most all decks can answer a turn one Goblin Lackey. With all the tools to sweep small creatures in Red, White and Black, Goblins needs some serious innovation to come back, not just banning a card. Your argument makes it sound like Brainstorm kills your ability to innovate.

[AznSeal]

How do you know that value Y is positive and not negative? I am not convinced, especially if we are talking about banning Brainstorm and Ponder (or TC). Moreover, if value Y is positive this would mean we urgently need to ban Brainstorm and Ponder (or TC) because blue already has 'overpowered' cantrips, it would mean it needs Brainstorm and Ponder as much as Black needs Demonic Tutor.


I much prefer the current meta + 6 year old decks than only the current meta. I think that's obvious. The more valid decks, the better the meta-game, the more fun I have in Legacy. Offcourse that is subjective, I like a wider and more open meta-game. I can understand other people prefer a small restricted meta-game, but just admit it then!

Excellent question. Let's pretend that Y becomes positive and nonblue decks become better than blue decks. We can't group ALL nonblue decks together (like what some people try to do with blue decks) but let's say Y is positive and Elves, Lands, or hell, Jund became the best deck. Then the people who played blue will migrate over to play the next best deck and the cycle will continue. Spikes will play the best deck, no matter what. Right now, the best deck just happens to be blue.

IMPORTANT: I still don't know why people group decks like storm, delver, stoneblade, and sneakNshow as the same deck......
If i remember correctly, the data last posted showed the most popular deck was UR Delver followed by Miracles. In a meta without blue, the best deck may be Death N taxes followed by Maverick. Why is it fair to group UR Delver and miracles as "blue decks" but not DnT and Maverick as "white decks"? Miracles and UR Delver share lands, ponder, force of will, and brainstorm. Maverick and DnT share stoneforge mystic, mother of runes, swords to plowshares, wastelands, thalia. Hell, if you look at junk and elves, they share deathrite shaman, abrupt decay, green sun's zenith

People here complain that they're sick of turn 1: brainstorm when storm does brainstorm to digging to comboing off and deathblade does brainstorm to digging to board control to big creature. They claim that's the same "deck". Why is that the same but a turn 1: deathrite shaman to durdling to comboing off with elves different from turn 1 deathrite shaman to board control to Tarmogoyf beats (which can apply to BUG delver and Jund...OMG IS ELVES THE SAME DECK AS BUG DELVER????)?

We get Junk back, more than just Maverick. We get Suicide Bw back. We probably get Goblins back with some updates. It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey. We might even get some of the more control centric lists back once Miracles isn't 10x better than any of them.

The meta has been so constrained by a few lists over the last several years.

If blue became so weakened that none-blue fair decks became the best deck (despite how little the margin), many people would switch over and then you'd complain of the "good stuff shell" aka BGx shell aka Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoy, Lilliana, abrupt decay, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, or maybe combo will be insane and you'll complain about the combo shell aka LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

There will always be best cards, and serious players will always play them.

[FoolofaTook]

Most all decks can answer a turn one Goblin Lackey. With all the tools to sweep small creatures in Red, White and Black, Goblins needs some serious innovation to come back, not just banning a card. Your argument makes it sound like Brainstorm kills your ability to innovate.

Brainstorm and Ponder make it too easy to find the first and second pieces of removal. Those two cards contribute more to a format where a good removal suite is 4 to 7 cards than anything else. They make thick lists with lots of redundancy weak by comparison because they find the things you need to easily. They make lists playing 4 bolts and 4 plows much too strong against creature aggro, then the sweepers or the finishers depending on the variant are too much to overcome. They make lists playing a single win-con (Ad Nauseum for example) much too strong. They make lists wanting to play a perverse combo much too strong. The competition they create is mainly between lists playing one part of the blue shell or the other. Only a small group of lists not playing the blue shell can enter that competition and survive but throw a few Kird Apes into the blue shell and you're just fine...

Just weaken the shell enough that redundancy becomes a viable game plan again. Weaken it enough that 7 targeted discard might really disrupt the opponent enough to get everything else off the ground. Weaken it enough that a fatty that hits the board early might actually go the 4 turns needed to win the game with a little more disruption behind it. The only lists that can do that now are blue shell lists playing Delver of Secrets.

It's not that there are good plays and better plays early on, it's whether you can find the play that you need to make like clockwork and that's what the blue shell does. That's why Kird Ape was relevant in Philadelphia for the first time in a long while. Not a great play early but when it's backed up by counters and removal and the ability to easily find what you need anything that is cheap that sticks will do the trick.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey.

For reference:
Goblin Rabblemaster

The phrase Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able killed Rabblemaster as a playable card in Legacy Vial Goblins.

And Goblin Matron is the good play with Vial on 3 on our way deeper into the curve. Fetch Ringleader >> Profit!

[FoolofaTook]

If blue became so weakened that none-blue fair decks became the best deck (despite how little the margin), many people would switch over and then you'd complain of the "good stuff shell" aka BGx shell aka Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoy, Lilliana, abrupt decay, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, or maybe combo will be insane and you'll complain about the combo shell aka LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

There will always be best cards, and serious players will always play them.

I don't want anything to be "the" best list, although I recognize that's always likely to be the case. I do want for "the" best list not to come from a cloud of lists that all include the same GD mechanisms and that play at different tempos along a predictable path of play. I want "the" best list not just to rotate among a few lists that all include the exact same mechanisms with a minor addition or subtraction here or there. Right now we've got a meta where most of the best lists have the same engine and a very similar approach to the game. There are two outliers: Miracles is mid-range control and Elves is combo. Other than that we've got blue shell aggro control all over the place.

Nothing is going to change in that arrangement as long as the blue shell maintains it's superiority in card draw and selection as well as the best reaction cards against a wide range of threats. New power will just get plugged into the old shell and the game will speed up a little bit but play along the same lines that shell has been playing along since Threshold became a thing. That's a horrifically boring meta to play in. it's like Chess only you get randomly screwed when your Rook doesn't show up in time or your opponent pulls a turn 3 Queen out of his ass to end the game, a Queen most often provided courtesy of the King - the blue shell.

[tescrin]

If we're fair to the "Decks you get back" stuff; Loam is much worse in the current meta as are wastelands in general (and it has a slew of archtypes, including just using it to supplement CA in things like Junk or Jund.) Fetch->Basic is everywhere and TC's ability to bounce back from waste-spam is problematic for denial strategies unless they get the coveted "you didn't draw lands and I have a Thalia" kinda start.

[FoolofaTook]

For reference:
Goblin Rabblemaster

The phrase Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able killed Rabblemaster as a playable card in Legacy Vial Goblins.

And Goblin Matron is the good play with Vial on 3 on our way deeper into the curve. Fetch Ringleader >> Profit!

Goblins standing still have been losers since the dawn of time. That's why Goyf began their descent into the cellar. Rabblemaster would be a huge anti-Goyf card, assuming you could play Goblins in this meta to begin with.

So Goblin Rabblemaster is a second main phase play instead of a first main phase play. It's an EoT drop in via vial. It lands after Goblin Lackey has attacked. It's still a ridiculously good card with any Goblin haste enabler and the Goblin shell has a lot of those.

[FoolofaTook]

If we're fair to the "Decks you get back" stuff; Loam is much worse in the current meta as are wastelands in general (and it has a slew of archtypes, including just using it to supplement CA in things like Junk or Jund.) Fetch->Basic is everywhere and TC's ability to bounce back from waste-spam is problematic for denial strategies unless they get the coveted "you didn't draw lands and I have a Thalia" kinda start.

Yes, Loam lists would also come back, Aggro Loam in particular. Landstill would come back because it never relied on Brainstorm in the first place, being land heavy and having other tutor effects generally part of the plan for when it wanted to create the inflection point. The Landstill variants being played now are basically TurboStill because that's what it takes to keep up with a meta where 70% of the lists are finding their golden path reliably in the first 3 or 4 turns. Moat would be pretty godly against just about everything but Delver, Vendilion Clique and Emrakul, however you'll never get to turn 4 to cast it in this meta and if you do get there and can cast it you'll have to fight a counter war over it most of the time so why bother. If you're wanting to use it in MWC, man that's never going to happen when 65% of the meta at the top tables is rocking Force of Will, courtesy of the blue shell.

[Slag]

If blue became so weakened that none-blue fair decks became the best deck (despite how little the margin), many people would switch over and then you'd complain of the "good stuff shell" aka BGx shell aka Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoy, Lilliana, abrupt decay, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, or maybe combo will be insane and you'll complain about the combo shell aka LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

There will always be best cards, and serious players will always play them.

What keeps this from being applicable is that the "good stuff" shell is vulnerable to fast combo. If the meta switches to heavy jund/lands/d&t decks, then eventually there will be an event where belcher decks destroy the world. That will prompt a rise in combo decks, and then some clever metagamer will bring such Force of Will deck is most viable, probably merfolk. The increased number of force decks set the stage for some midrange control/goodstuff deck. The big problem with the current blue shell is that it is not exhibiting a particularly big weakness to combo, control, or aggro (such as it is in the format), and thus is unlikely to be unseated from its place in the metagame.

[rufus]

... Your argument makes it sound like Brainstorm kills your ability to innovate.

I'm quoting a little out of context, but I feel like that's almost true. It seems like all viable decks are playing for a turn 3 win, playing an anti-cantrip strategy, or playing with brainstorm.

...It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. ...

Goblins died to the flood of super-efficient creatures like Tarmogoyf. Rabblemaster is actively bad against those.

[AznSeal]

The problem with this is that the "good stuff" shell is vulnerable to fast combo. If the meta switches to heavy jund/lands/d&t decks, then eventually there will be an event where belcher decks destroy the world. That will prompt a rise in combo decks, and then some clever metagamer will bring such Force of Will deck is most viable, probably merfolk. The increased number of force decks set the stage for some midrange control/goodstuff deck. The big problem with the current blue shell is that it is not exhibiting a particularly big weakness to combo, control, or aggro (such as it is in the format), and thus is unlikely to be unseated from its place in the metagame.

Right, but the different blue decks are weak to different things. UR Delver is weak to fast combo due to the lack of as many counters, SneakNShow is weak to DnT, Miracles is weak to Tron, Storm is weak to tempo/disruption. It's unfair to group them as one deck and saying it's not weak to anything. Trying to group them as one deck with no weaknesses is like saying "hmm, deathrite decks are OP because no deck is good against Junk, BUG Delver, Jund, and elves!"

[Kanti]

People saying Brainstorm makes decks 56 cards; so does GSZ.

[tescrin]

Hello! There is a hyperlink->

EDIT: TL;DR versions are in bold

My actual stance on BS: I think it's fine to keep or kill. Killing it hurts Miracles and Delver IMO, not combo
I should clarify I was speaking primarily on TC. I've never had a real stance on Brainstorm (but typically find the pro-Brainstorm arguments lacking which colors me as anti.) My vision of BS is that it doesn't keep combo in check nor does it hinder it. I feel like it could go away without consequence to combo variants while harming the decks that are most dominant (Delver, Miracles, and by association of what it's best against, Elves.) My argument about swapping to Burning Wish is actually gaining ground in the current meta if you follow Death and others in the U/R Omnitell forum (which kinda proves my point.) Whether or not that means BS should stay or go is moot to me; merely that it doesn't actually matter.

Loam vs. Blue is fine before TC. TC=>less colors and more speed in the format, causing loam to be bad. Brainstorm was never the issue with Loam.
The blue shell is fine to beat down with Loam because Raw CA is how you used to fight blue decks (which seems ironic given the color pie.) Blue decks had Snappy, SFM, or Lily/Jace for CA; but that's it. TC changed that while sturdying up the manabases making Loam undesirable until 3-color decks are in vogue again. That said, my stance on TC is more of it's ripple effect and less of the card itself. I feel like TC is a fine, balanced card; and it's BS/FoW that allow it to be run as a 4x since it's conditional-ness is compensated for easily.


I think TC and BS could stay if they'd unban Mind Twist. It's CA happens in one go and it's good against every tier'd deck IMO.
I'd hate to see TC go since it typically isn't why I lose a game; it's a fun card, and it encourages a longer game. The problem is that BS + TC + etc.. is showing itself to be a problem IMO. I'd be happy if they experimented with taking Mind Twist off the do-dad since it compensates for TC by offering black a massive CA swing in a comparable time frame. (I.E. I can also get +2 CA right now if I cast it for X=3. That seems fair.) Mind Twist additionally seems interesting in Storm since it hits for 1 on Ad Nausium (making it a safe addition) but turns into a 3 card hymn with a ritual T2 if they need time. It's weak to Teeg; and all of this combines to make it seem like a good balanced card that would help level the meta.

People think Twist sucks; but it's mainable and has interesting applications, even if it usually just neuters a TC
I realize most people think it'd have little to no impact; but if you TC T4 and have 3 cards in hand and I twist T4 and take them away; we're all good. Mind Twists' color-lightness is all the difference between the usability of Hymn and the extra mana it has. The fact Maverick could make you discard 3-5 T3 is a scary prospect that I imagine would level the playing field and allow a better, mainable solution to combo, TC, and Delver (all of which need several cards in hand to be effective.) BS is also a card that relies on hand-size to be good (you want a shuffle effect and you don't want a brain-lock) and Mind Twist neuters that.

[Slag]

Right, but the different blue decks are weak to different things. UR Delver is weak to fast combo due to the lack of as many counters, SneakNShow is weak to DnT, Miracles is weak to Tron, Storm is weak to tempo/disruption. It's unfair to group them as one deck and saying it's not weak to anything. Trying to group them as one deck with no weaknesses is like saying "hmm, deathrite decks are OP because no deck is good against Junk, BUG Delver, Jund, and elves!"

Fair enough, although I should say I had the force/bs/cruise package specifically in mind when I referenced the "blue shell."

[nedleeds]

people saying brainstorm makes decks 56 cards; so does gsz.

lol.

[FoolofaTook]

People saying Brainstorm makes decks 56 cards; so does GSZ.

And if GSZ was an auto-include in 70% of the lists at the top tables it would be banned at the next update. Think about it.

Also, GSZ is not an auto-include even in lists including green creatures. If the list is mainly green creatures then it's probably going to get a slot but if the list is two or three colors it probably won't. Maverick is the exception to the rule. Jund doesn't play GSZ, BUG doesn't play GSZ, RUG doesn't play GSZ, etc.

[AznSeal]

Fair enough, although I should say I had the force/bs/cruise package specifically in mind when I referenced the "blue shell."

And that's basically only UR Delver, and I guess Jeskai stoneblade.