If we ever get Survival back, then Archangel/Spike is on the table. Until then, it's worse.Originally Posted by thotcrime
Board Krosan Grips if you're having issues with Miracles.
ET waxes and wanes in power. Right now, it's pretty terrible. The meta doesn't fold to specific hateful cards, and you only want to run ET in those specific metas because of the card disadvantage.
This is quite fair. I'll take that :P This is also funnier in your voice.
It's just the land search doesn't do much, at least unless you're willing to really build around it.
-Matt
I want to point out a couple things here. RE: Omnitell: Teeg (and Canonist if you run it) is your best hate against them. Rather than waiting I think that running out Teeg ASAP to shut off DTT, Force and Dreams Halls as lines is too important not to (while establishing a clock ofc). Unfortunately, once they cast Show and Tell (because they will as it slips under Teeg), Omniscience is on the battlefield anyway and hoping that they don't have Wish isn't a very reliable strat; moreover, if they are any good, they probably anticipate Teeg or some kind of hatebear and thus will try to sculpt something involving Wish. The clock we can present is never that brutal so they should have time.
So, if you are running out Teeg, which I believe is too good not too (shutting of DTT at LEAST), what are you dead to? SnT > Omni > Wish will still get you, so Extraction on Wish does seem like a good idea here. But SnT > Omni > Emrakul is straight up Game Over.
So I think what I'm trying to say is that it is more favourable to be more proactive with your hatebears, establishing a clock, and if you get the chance to fire off Cranial before you've lost, which should be most games where you get a chance to play it, Name Show and Tell! If you have Teeg around they are dead in the water (outside of hardcasting Emrakul - careful with those Explorer Triggers ;) ) And FWIW Karakas is basically useless if they are playing Emrakul off of Omni. OFC this applies only to monoU where they don't have the Burning Wish -> SnT Line.
Again, I feel like you have to be more consistent with your Teeg plan here; it is absolutely the key card in the MU. Top is a high priority, sure, but if you shut off 90% of their deck with Teeg, you should be going after the only answer that they have to Teeg: Swords to Plowshares, with Cranial. Going for Jace with Cranial is useless if you can use it to ensure Teeg will stay in play, who shuts off Jace himself. Them having top and mucking around with Top won't do much if they literally can't dig to anything to get Teeg off the table, so yeah I would say Swords is Cranial target #1 - if you're heavy on the Teeg plan, which you should be. [This all coming from a Miracles Pilot, but ofc Matt you know this ;)]
See what I said re: Teeg above; it really is the critical point that the MU revolves around, and sticking / protecting it is close to Game Over for Miracles. Slaughter Games is basically just your upgraded Extraction here.
Trample turns an otherwise "dumb" beater into a very Angry Beater. Subtle distinction. We ain't got no time for gallantry round these parts.
Hey, because of Modern bannings, I'm thinking of dropping out of modern until they figure out what they are doing and I though that Nic Fit would be a cool deck to try out, and not to mention a deck that I already have a decent amount of. The list I saw on the last page was this:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Siege Rhino
1x Thragtusk
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Golgari Charm
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Path to Exile
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacomb
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
3x Forest
2x Plains
I have a few questions:
1) Is this a good list for a person just starting out?
2) What is your current/will be your sideboard in the new meta?
3) Path over Swords? I'm assuming you just relying on running them out of basics with your Veterans?
Thanks
I've only been playing Matt's build a tiny bit (entirely inspired by that pretty picture) but path has gone incredibly well with the siege rhinos. Having so many ways to find or recur rhino means that the triggers are actually super relevant and path helps keep it that way. The downside is just more of what nic fit already does so it really hasn't felt that bad so far.
Hey everybody ...
I'm new to this forum, and to playing Legacy in general. I finally got some dual lands recently, and decided on building BUG Nic Fit Pod. I love value creatures, and I'm stoked that I can play Swaggy in Legacy.
So, questions. It seems like this deck isn't awesome against combo decks. Obviously Cabal Therapy is one of our key cards, but what else can I do (play-wise or deckbuilding-wise) to shore up matchups like Storm? I bring in Forces and Riptide Pilferers, and I'm thinking about adding a Thoughtseize and/or Surgical or two.
Secondly, are there are decent creatures with dies triggers? So I can get more value out of Therapy and Pod? Obviously there's the Persist creatures (Glen Elendra, Kitchen Finks, Redcap), and good old Vet. But what else? I love the idea of putting in Sad Robot, but is that really what I wanna do with 4 mana? I guess there's Sultai Emissary? Or Strangleroot Geist? But those don't really do much.
The trick to beating storm is knowing the deck and to know when to counterspell what and what to cabal therapy out of their hand. The most important cards in their list as follows: Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual, then Tendrils of Agony. Although Tendrils is their wincon, they can easily flash it back with past in flames. You want to stop them from Storming. You should also have a flusterstorm on your sideboard.
Thragtusk leaves you with a 3/3 body. I'm not too sure what else you are looking for value wise. You should be more interested in etb effects than leaving play effects. Grave Titan is great and should be the top end of your curve. Baleful Stryx is great. But then you also wants cards that are powerful that you can play because you have a ramp deck, like sower of temptation.
I do not buy the Teeg plan against Miracles. It is not the end of the world if he eats a Sword but it seems like an unrealistic plan to put any more hopes in him and like a waste to use any more resources to protect him. GBW has one Teeg (you find it reliably with GSZ but when he is gone, he is gone) and even if Miracles doesn't have a StoP in hand it has 4 Tops, 4 Brainstorm and a couple of Ponders to find one. It also has Snapcaster to re-use Swords and Council Judgement if they are desperate. And last but not least Miacles has Karakas to shut Teeg down. I cannot see Teeg shutting the whole Miracles deck down in more than 1 of 10 games.
GBW has no tools to protect it except discard. Using a Therapy on StoP feels like a waste, it is needed to combat their big spells. Cranial on StoP is such a gamble, I do not like it. If they find Karakas or Judgement or some other random solution you are really far behind. Edit: Maybe Therapy on StP can be useful to increase the pressure with Rhinos, Matt will probably know best.
Yeah, that are my experiences with Miracles, too. That's why I would suggest 2 Slaughter Games MD atm. G1 is super important because the games take so long and G1 Miracles most likely loses if GBR gets their Entreat. After that it is only controlling Jace and shooting down the few Snapcasters and Cliques. The ban of TC will also shift the meta into a direction that makes Slaughter Games stronger.
I had built around it using 3xPrimetime as my "Fat Maverick" creature; I.E. I had Karakas, Maze, towers, and Stirring Wildwood(? 3/4 manland) in there. He was a mix of S&T hate with the ablity to be a "grave titan" or other things. It did cut into my Basics count to get things working and ultimately I abandoned the deck; but it wasn't terrible and I did live the dream of S&T->Primetime->Karakas + Maze->Scoop; which was pretty sweet.
The manlands helped with Miracles and such (which was right about the time it started exploding in popularity again) and I had a few S&T players in the shop. The main issue was fellow Junk/Maverick decks could outsize my Titan and we'd get in a stall. Being terrible at Legacy then, I don't think that helped either :P
EDIT: Were I in Jund I'd probably do the same thing with Raging Ravine with a 1-of Titan. The man-lands helped a ton for Walkers and things and work very well with Deed.
Yeah, Slaughter Games will get stronger mostly because Miracles is likely the best deck by a wider margin. Still having access to DTT is very nice for them.
Teeg is not the end all, be all of the matchup with Junk but he's certainly going to help you a lot. Combine this with Thrun and Sigarda and Rhinos and it'll be okay.
As for how much pressure Rhino does put on, consider this. If you land a Rhino, you've done 3 to them. Hooray! Even if they STP it, you get some more buffer room. Eventually, they have to run out of counterspells or pieces of removal. I won against a Miracles pilot last night online by jamming Rhinos (all 3 got STP'd), but then I just dropped Thrun and he went the rest of the way. It's awkward for them because it's still 3 damage even if they STP him, and he's a beefy attacker if they don't have the removal that turn. They also can't bounce him with a Jace to buy time unless they've got a counterspell backup. On paper, he seems worse than he actually is in the matchup.
Red might be slightly better in a more Miracles heavy metagame, but we'll see. Maybe Slaughter Games will see a splash, or even choosing to bring Liliana back into the deck for Junk. Time will tell, I'll get some more testing in.
-Matt
Add me to the list of former Modern Pod players who are now Legacy Nic Fit players!
Probably going with the Junk list since that's what I have the cards for. People I've asked keep trying to steer me toward the BUG Nic Fit lists but I also play UR Delver (Modern and Legacy) and don't want to hop cards between decks.
I have been playing BUGfit with pod for quite some time and can advise the following: DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Baleful Strix, Phantasmal image, TNN, Vendilion Clique, Witness, Kitchen Finks, Glen Elendra-Archmage (one of the best!), Sower of Temptation, Thragtusk, Acidic Slime, Consecrated Sphinx and Sagu Mauler. Murderous Redcap is cute but didn't make it for me in the end. One of the main issues is that the deck is slow. The better you make the match up against combo, the slower it gets. Make sure to realize this when building and testing lists. You need a few creatures along your chains that should just make you win or pose a significant threat. BUG can sometimes get a bit too cute. Jace hasn't worked for me. If you want example lists just check my posts. Enjoy and good luck, it took me quite some time to make this deck competitive and fun to play, but it has been well worth the effort.
On another note it seems my UR delver problem has been solved. Not as good as a ban on lightning bolt, but I'll take this as a good alternative. Glad wizards realized this deck was just plain stupid.
If you are worried about Miracles being a significant enough presence in the meta, then you should definitely be running at least 2, if not 3, total copies of Teeg; yeah, you can GSZ him out but ofc they'll probably be able remove the 1st, but each redundant copy allows you to keep pressuring them to have the swords - especially useful if you are jamming Rhinos in the meantime (as Matt mentions, he's a hell of a beater). You're talking about them having access to tons of STP, including Snapcaster - that's what the Cranial / Slaughter Games is for! And if they are running Snapcaster it is highly unlikely they'll be running Karakas as well (it's pretty well understood that Karakas doesn't belong in the 'best' version of Miracles - that with Ponders and SCM).
Council's Judgement had pretty much all but dried up in Miracles lists with all the UR Cruise Delver around, but yeah, it will probably be coming back as a 1 or 2 of in most lists. Thing is, it's really clunky, and Miracles doesn't want it clogging up the hand most of the time - it's more of a concession to Liliana than anything else (and for me, an out to the 3x Teeg Matt is likely to be playing).
---
Also, something I have been thinking about for a while here guys - is it worth it to start a new thread for BUG Pod? I feel like the deck is different enough in its focus compared to classic Nic Fit; it doesn't share all the similarities the R and W lists do. Thoughts?
Reasonably I think Pod should go in another thread, yeah. It's not getting much attention in here, and I think the people who are interested do want to talk about it.
-Matt
sdematt: what's your Sideboard currently for your Nic Fit build you posted? I could imagine Gaddock Teeg, Canonist, some Discard, what else?
How does Volrath's Stronghold perform? Is it worth it or wouldn't you mind playing another fetch/dual/basic instead?
I'm really interested in the deck again (I played Scapewish in the past).
Thanks!
My board is 2 teeg, 1 grip, 1 cranial extraction, 3thoughtseize, 2toxic deluge, 3 surgical extraction, 3 carpet of flowers.
Stronghold has been very strong. It gives you a lot of inevitability in the control matchups: recycling creatures with sac effects to dodge STP, stuff gets countered, and abusing eternal witness. It also gives you an out against grindstone.
What are people's thoughts on Obzedat, Ghost Council compared to Thragtusk? He was making waves in Modern Pod for a bit over Thragtusk.
Obzedat is just a bad Siege Rhino. Almost the same stats for 1 Mana more, worse effect and much more difficult color requirements, those are the worst part. Double Black and double White is very hard to get. The EoT blink is nice but it doesn't matter that much when all removal in the format is Instant anyway (especially from those decks against which you don't need your creatures as blockers).
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