@ivanpei
--> clear some PMs so I can drop you one.
j
Ok just cleared them, sorry about that.
@ scg meta yeah, alot of copy pasting going on. 1 Dig should be ok, anything more makes the deck really clunky. Additional Digs mean Terminus or Entreat needs to be trimmed down to reduce clunkiness, but since those are our name sake cards, that's not a great idea.
I understand how you get to this. But Iam also testing the Dig and play 2 myself. The thing is Dig is not a dead card in your start hand. The reason is that is converted Manacost is 2 Blue Mana. Now you may think but the card says it is 6 colorles and 2 blue but this is not true. The reason for this bold statement is that I expierienced that with 10 fetchlands and more than 10 spells you can cast early at round 3 or 4 you can cast it for 2 blue. The result is that you draw 2 cards out of seven and as a side effect you can but suboptimal cards under your libary enhancing the performance of your deck in the following turns by a high degree.ivanpei
I've been seeing alot of Miracle lists running 2-3 Dig Through Time. On paper it seemed like a natural fit so I tested them out. After quite a bit of testing, something very obvious stood out, the deck has waaaaayyy too many dead cards in the opening hand if you include Dig in the deck. Even with 4 Terminus and 2 Entreat, the deck already has alot of cards you don't want to see in your opening hand. If you throw in another 3 Digs, you are looking at 9 dead cards in the opening hand. Mulligan rates can increase quite a bit with Dig.
The statment that our graveyard is filling slowly is plain wrong because since we have to answer threats they play your graveyard so be filled decently by tunr 4 or 5. The reason for this is depending on the deck you play against you allready played 1 up to 3 spells and 1 up to 3 fetchlands
So for me Dig is not a dead card i most of the time. As example let us say you get a hand with 2 fetchlands 1 cantrip 1counter or sword 1 dig and 2 other cards. In this hand dig is great because you can reliably cast it at turn 4 which will give you a huge advantage. Also it is blue and you can pitch is to FoW.
In the end I think Dig is a good addtion because it finds the right card in the right moment and this is what you want to have in an control deck.
For the punishing fire I would recomend playing 1 or 2 copies of forbid. Because it increases your cmc 3 count and is an infinite counterspell as soon as you have 2 Fires.
thanks for replies, what actually happened? - bold is the actual choice, others were tryied out
1.
A - flipped CS, dead in next 2 turns thanks to a topdecked Ritual
B - win if waited
C - win if waited
2.
A - win (blindflip 1, 2 and 4 also sufficient)
B - dead
C - dead
3.
A - ? too early to matter
B - ? too early to matter
C - win
Monastery Mentor + Top is tasty. I have to try that out. I may also look into a Punishing variant alongside it. That card is sweet.
Dig Through Time doesn't lean towards playing as many as possible, as quick as possible, in this deck. This isn't Treasure Cruise, where you wanted to chain them, as many times as possible.
1 Dig is surely fine, but 2-3-4 is too many. And yes, in your starting hand it is dead. It means you want to cast all your spells as quick as possible, in order to gain value, which isn't necessarily the way to go.
Nice job beating shardless BUG. (I was also there yesterday, the usual miracles player, and got totally crushed game 1 by a turn 3 lilly, and game 2 by tripple hymn! WTF is that!)
Anyway, anyone have sideboard tips with Ein's new list against DnT? I feel so split in my game plan of trying both stack interaction as well as keeping the board clean. I know that forcing vial is really key, but outside of that how do you guys approach this match-up? I know its slightly favored on our end, but I don't have a clear direction against it which makes it a struggle for me against good DnT pilots.
Hey Michael! I won both games in which he did not resolve a turn 3 Liliana (Spell Pierce is very crucial for this), and was crushed the game in which he did. I had no business winning that game where tagged my Top with a Pithing Needle, but sometimes luck > skill. This is one of the match-ups where I want to see as many DTT as possible.
You donīt want to chain them. What You want is reliably get one in each game. So if we concider all cantrips and Jace you should play 2 to get 1 in nearly every game. Why you want 1 is obvious because it hits like a truck andQuasim0ff
Dig Through Time doesn't lean towards playing as many as possible, as quick as possible, in this deck. This isn't Treasure Cruise, where you wanted to chain them, as many times as possible.
1 Dig is surely fine, but 2-3-4 is too many. And yes, in your starting hand it is dead. It means you want to cast all your spells as quick as possible, in order to gain value, which isn't necessarily the way to go.
find you cards you normaly would have no acess too.
Dig is not a dead card in the start hand. Dead cards are useless cards for this game you play. Sword is dead against combo for example. Dig never will have this problem because you can cast it every time and it will give you value every time.
Miracles are dead in your hand because you canīt cast them without a great overconmitment into your mana recource which is quite bad. Dig will never have this eitehr because it only costs 2 blue mana and is an instant.
So while it may seem as a dead card. Again if you have a very normal hand with 2 fetch a cantrip and Counterspell Dig is not dead because you can cast it turn 4 most of the time. No that donīt mean that I want to cast all spells
as fast as possible it just means that i think taht it is more likley that you have to answer more threats in the first 4 turns because the opponents hand is full than in later turns were you the pressure is lower.
This results in a faster filling of the graveyard in the earlier turns and makes dig so much better because it gives you and advantage in all parts of the game.
I play Ein's 4/4/4 Ponder/Brainstorm/Top list, and I see Dig through time every game, which lasts for quite some time.
It's dead, as it has no function in the first rounds. If you've stabilized from turn 5, you are already a favorite against most of the field, and that's when DTT is best (Sure, you can jam it ASAP, but for the first few turns you just want to get a stable manabase, clear the board/find some interaction. DTT is hard to tap out for at that point.
However, it's insanely strong, and I think it's extremely well suited for Reset High Tide/Omni tell style of deck (combo-Control, with a large focus on combo).
@ Teves I'm quite astonished to see a good post here. I agree with everything you wrote.
Anyways who the hell thinks that Miracle is not favored against Storm? I played against a lot of storm pilots that are very good, and I did not beat them because I was better, I did beat them because this deck is favored against them.
@quasimoff
Are we playing the same game? Are you aware of Infect? Do you think if you did not die by turn 5 you are about to win the game? What about the mirror? What about shardless bug? Combo? BGx?
Who cares about game 1 from a mathematical point of view? What only matters is overall win %, unless you get tilted after a game 1 loss.
Haha, hey Matt! Yah, I feel like its a race to entreat for me, which if I can prevent him from resolving Lilly/Jace and keep the board relatively clear until I find one the game is heavily in my favor from that point on.
Whats your approach to the DnT match-up? Keep in CB and FOW? I took out entreat planning to win the jace in the postboard games, just because David was on such a heavy porting my white source plan the whole time, so entreat felt unreliable. I took out a CB going down to 3 post board, which in retrospect feels incorrect to me as DnT is so 2 mana heavy which I could lock out pretty easily.
I didn't feel so bad losing in 3 close games against David as he is such a solid DnT player. Felt confident in me playing tight, just was kinda lost in the general direction I wanted to take the match in.
I see. The problem I have with this is that if you think you are safe by turn 5 against the most decks than you a wrong. The thing is that you draw 1 card per turn. Sure you can look into 3 and you have shuffle effects but it can happen thatQuasim0ff
I play Ein's 4/4/4 Ponder/Brainstorm/Top list, and I see Dig through time every game, which lasts for quite some time.
It's dead, as it has no function in the first rounds. If you've stabilized from turn 5, you are already a favorite against most of the field, and that's when DTT is best (Sure, you can jam it ASAP, but for the first few turns you just want to get a stable manabase, clear the board/find some interaction. DTT is hard to tap out for at that point.
However, it's insanely strong, and I think it's extremely well suited for Reset High Tide/Omni tell style of deck (combo-Control, with a large focus on combo).
your opponent know the limitations of your answers and than he kills you with a card your canīt deal with. Here Dig helps quiete a lot because it will help you to find the answer you need and gives you piles that help you to remain in control of the game.
You never tap out for DDT even at turn 4 because it is an instant you just can do it at the end of the enemy turn and than 2 thing could happen you get it and have 2 more cards and 5 dead cards less or he counters it and
you get value out of it in terms of getting a better position for a following win condition.
In this scenario you didnīlost anything because you only spend you mana if he donīt play a threat and you never overcomited mana in your turn cause it is an instant.
i can understand that with the heavy snapcaster build you want more cards to stay in your graveyard and therefore have more problems with the delve mechanic but if you think a bout this again
you can come to the conclusion that it is even better to get a new copie instead of flashbacking the old because depending on the gamestate you could want a win condition fast which is a great strenght
of DDT.
this is to narrow. DDT is a cardadvanatge card and you want it in each deck which wins over card and board advantage. The reason is that boardadvantage is generated by cardadvantge and the fact thatHowever, it's insanely strong, and I think it's extremely well suited for Reset High Tide/Omni tell style of deck (combo-Control, with a large focus on combo).
you find more solutions for the opponents threats. So if your goal is to keep your opponenet out of the game than you want cardadvantage.
If we can conclude on this we can look at DDT and see that actually it says draw the best 2 out of 7 cards for 2 Mana. The generated card and qaulitiy advantage you get can be compared to brainstorm +fetchland
because you can put all the bad cards under your libary with DDT.
And since its creates such a huge advantage it is one of the best cards you can want for your control deck which relies on keeping the enemy from doing anything relevant to the game.
So no it is not only to find combo pieces but also a hilarious good card to find answers which means the right statement would be.
It is insanly strong in each control, combo or combo control deck which plays enough cantrips, fetchlands and low cost spells to support delve and yes Miracles is doing this.
Btw for the Manabase you never should have problems with it since you generaly go for basic island, basic plains and than basic mountain or island depending on the situation.
This doesn't feel right. DnT always ports you on your upkeep. Assume you have a SDT in play, you can just activate SDT to Entreat in response to DnT's porting, I don't understand what you mean by unreliable.
CB in general, isn't that useful against Vial decks. There's nothing more annoying against Vial deck opponents when they go land-Vial-turn 1, or if they put down Cavern. The general direction you want to do is to minimize/marginalize the locking aspect of DnT. This is done so by fetching at good timing, using basic lands, making your land drops. DnT might even try to get rid of your SDT in response to your fetchland activation. At some point, DnT will attempt to play Cataclysm, just prepare for that moment. Focus your removal on Revoker/Needle, your ability to activate SDT is vital.
Last edited by twndomn; 02-16-2015 at 03:31 PM.
I think you might misunderstand my point with stabilizing around turn 5-7 - I don't mean "Sure, we are at turn 5, I've won now."
Also, It's not unusual to have tundra, tundra volc as 3 landdrops, if you don't draw your fetches etc.
DTT isn't as much a cardadvantage engine as a sublime card selection tool. It's hard to chain them together, waaaaay more than TC was, which is why I'd never ever want 2 in the top 15 cards, which happens a non-zero amount of time.
I also found it's very rare I actually want to delve 6 cards for it, and if I do so, it's usually because I'm either insanely favored (0 creatures to kill with swords/something along that line) or because I need something very narrow (force + REB etc) and those are the ONLY outs I have.
I don't state I am right, at all, but I personally preferred 1 over 2, but the future might show a 2 or even 3 DTT list to be superior :)
I now what you mean with stabilizing but you missunderstood me. To be clear the only point were a enemy is cant come back is if he is defeated before that heQuasim0ff
I think you might misunderstand my point with stabilizing around turn 5-7 - I don't mean "Sure, we are at turn 5, I've won now."
Also, It's not unusual to have tundra, tundra volc as 3 landdrops, if you don't draw your fetches etc.
actually still can kill you.
I think that land situation you desribe is very seldon. The reason for that is that you play enough cantrips and libary manipulation to find basics or fetchlands.
You actually play more basics than duals so it should be not a problem to find them.
It is a cardadvantage and selection tool so actually it is even better than if it would be only one of them. Also you never want a chain what you want is 1 and a second as backup so you can come a head out of the mostDTT isn't as much a cardadvantage engine as a sublime card selection tool. It's hard to chain them together, waaaaay more than TC was, which is why I'd never ever want 2 in the top 15 cards, which happens a non-zero amount of time.
low hand card siuations and increase the chance to find the right answer at the right time.
Thats the reason why I would play two of them. Because the help of DDT in keeping control of the game in all states is imense.
This comes only from the missinterpretation that you need all your spells to be a potential target for snapcaster. As example you can delve all the cantrips away because they do a simular thing than DDT which means I doesnīt matter if you keep them or play DDT. Also you donīt need multiple answers in the yard. If you have sword Counterspell Redblast and Spell Pierce you can delve away most of the cards depending on your mana left.I also found it's very rare I actually want to delve 6 cards for it, and if I do so, it's usually because I'm either insanely favored (0 creatures to kill with swords/something along that line) or because I need something very narrow (force + REB etc) and those are the ONLY outs I have.
The reason for this actually is that you play enough copies of the most relevant cards that it is likley to find another copy in the DDT or in the turn after it because of the huge libary insight it generates.
Btw if you flashback swords with your snapcaster it would be better to first cast dig to find another one because for the same mana you get 1 card more and donīt generate disadvantage in actually losing a card.
In the end the tests will tell if it is good or not but I really think that it makes all versions of miracles stronger because actuall if you cast 2 off them you normaly are winning the game with it. Which actually makes the potential
flashback with snapcaster so broken.
How do you deal with the Clunk? 3 DTT 4 Terminus and 2 Entreat is 9 cards which are dead until turn 5 and up. I've lost a few games when I have more than 1 in hand. They just get stuck there and without Brainstorm, you are screwed. I want to build a deck which doesn't lose to itself. It's best to be as consistent as possible even if we need to sacrifice some power.
I'm a pro-dig guy, just not in this deck. 1 is fine, more is clunky. I've played 3 Digs in my Pyroblade deck and it was perfect there. That deck had 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder and 3 Gitaxian Probe though along with 4 STP and 3 Bolts, so it fills the yard super quickly.
Decks like DNT are matchups where Punishing Fire shines. It gives you an infinite stream of removal to deal with the weenies even if an Aether Vial or Cavern is down, which shuts off your Counterbalance lock. Without Punishing Fire, a T1 vial is usually game over. Their dudes dodge counters and have pseudo haste when dropped EOT to dodge Terminus and to take down Planeswalkers.
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