Miracle Control

[Syntex]

Someone on the legacy subreddit on reddit brought up the idea of esper miracles using hand disruption in place of blasts with vindicate in place of councils judgement and possibly even dromars charm. What's your guys thoughts on this? Is losing blasts that back breaking to the deck post board?


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[index]

Vindicate deals neither with nimble mongoose or true name nemesis. And the black splash should also be pretty bad in the mirror were you need every single blast and miracle is "transforming" into UR Control with Entreat the Angels. It also hurts the Omnitell, RUG/UR/BUG/UWR Delver.

So i think its absolutely not worth kicking the Red splash for adding some discard.

[twndomn]

Someone on the legacy subreddit on reddit brought up the idea of esper miracles using hand disruption in place of blasts with vindicate in place of councils judgement and possibly even dromars charm. What's your guys thoughts on this? Is losing blasts that back breaking to the deck post board?


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Every single black card you've mentioned are inferior to the existing cards. Vindicate so you can blow up Eye of Ugin at the cost of Councils? Sounds like a downgrade to me. Dromars charm is not even Legacy competitive.

There're 2 cards from Black that's even on the table for discussion: Engineered Plague and Notion Thief. These cards are only good for a specific LGS, not a large SCG size tournament option. All the other cards including discards are just garbage. Anything Black can do, White can do it also, and most likely do it better.

[JBMage]

Just as a note, if they show and tell, and you want to put in pithing needle, you get to see what they're putting in before you need to name something. It gets harder if you're just trying to blindly name something T1 or whatever.

So, in general if you have Pithing Needle in hand you wait for show and tell? If they drop Sneak atack we lose. Is that the plan? These are the type of things i don't like to play around, would prefere to have a counterspell or vendilion clique everytime.

[Poron]

imho the best answer to that deck is Meddling Mage and Canonist.

they are huge also against storm, elves ans bug

[exallium]

So, in general if you have Pithing Needle in hand you wait for show and tell? If they drop Sneak atack we lose. Is that the plan? These are the type of things i don't like to play around, would prefere to have a counterspell or vendilion clique everytime.

I don't disagree with that. I don't run needle at all

[ThanhHa]

Hey exallium, I was wondering what your current miracles list looks like.

[exallium]

Hey exallium, I was wondering what your current miracles list looks like.

Mine is copy + paste Einherjer's current list, with a small sideboard change for my local meta:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
1 DTT
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
4 Swords
4 Force
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Jace
2 Entreat
3 Snapcaster

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

//
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Humility

The changes i made are -1 Entreat -1 Verdict -1 Fluster, +1 Elspeth, +1 Humility, +1 Relic.

I play the same list online. I like Elspeth in a miracles heavy field as a lot of the time they don't have an answer for it at all. I'm thinking about swapping the second relic back for the third flusterstorm online at least, as I think it lines up with the meta better (less loam decks)

[twndomn]

So, in general if you have Pithing Needle in hand you wait for show and tell? If they drop Sneak atack we lose. Is that the plan? These are the type of things i don't like to play around, would prefere to have a counterspell or vendilion clique everytime.

If you have Needle naming sneak attack and Karakas both in play, there's no way for Sneak and Show to win if it's on its MD configuration.

At that point the only ways for Sneak and Show to win are:
Blood Moon to turn off Karakas.
Boseiju into Show and Tell into Ashen Rider to blow up Karakas.
Wipe Away Needle/Karakas

[grim confident]

Mine is copy + paste Einherjer's current list, with a small sideboard change for my local meta:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
1 DTT
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
4 Swords
4 Force
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Jace
2 Entreat
3 Snapcaster

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

//
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Humility

The changes i made are -1 Entreat -1 Verdict -1 Fluster, +1 Elspeth, +1 Humility, +1 Relic.

I play the same list online. I like Elspeth in a miracles heavy field as a lot of the time they don't have an answer for it at all. I'm thinking about swapping the second relic back for the third flusterstorm online at least, as I think it lines up with the meta better (less loam decks)

Now，wasteland is becoming more popular.
So I think you need fifth island.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys, check out the latest episode of our podcast where we discuss Miracles:
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/unc...-004-miracles/

[Quasim0ff]

Now，wasteland is becoming more popular.
So I think you need fifth island.

You really don't...

[exallium]

Hey guys, check out the latest episode of our podcast where we discuss Miracles:
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/unc...-004-miracles/

Oohh! And I missed one I guess :)

[Ancestral]

i liked the podcast about miracles, but i run only 1 DTT and 3 snapacasters! i understand that is appealing to have acess to 7 and chose 2 of your deck, but snap it´s so important in every stages of the game , i m not imagine play without them ! that being said, if braverman sees this or anyone who runs 3 DTT, how is going that for you guys?

[alphastryk]

Are you still on the Meddling Mages in the sideboard? I've been playing to reasonable success (consistent 3-1s in a 30-40 person field of real decks) Ein's list -1 Snapcaster, -1 CB (only have 3 Chinese ones ), +2 Clique main, -1 Fluster, -1 Clique, +2 Meddling Mage in the board.

Meddling Mage has been great for me in so many of the random matchups. So good against combo to board out all the Miracles and turn into a fish deck. Also seems like it has been decent in the mirror.

I'm somewhere between a bunch of lists right now. There hasn't been enough non-ANT combo locally for me to want Meddling Mage right now, but I definitely do rotate it in and out. Gotta keep people guessing

Off the top of my head, this is where I think I'm at:


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will

4 Terminus

2 Dig Through Time


Sideboard:

3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict

[presquepartout]

Only dropped one game with this list in 4 rounds of legacy on Sunday

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
1 Dig Through Time

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Council's Judgment

I played BUG Food Chain (2-0), UWR Delver (2-0), 12-Post MUD (2-0), and Burn (We ID'd, but I won 2-1 when we played it out). The only loss came when he had the curve of Swiftspear --> Eidolon --> Vortex when he was on the play, I mulled to 6, and kept a hand of Top, CB, 2 blue lands, and 2 Miracles. Food Chain seems like it should be a bad matchup, but the deck is very inconsistent. Against MUD, I countered/killed everything he played for the first 3 turns, and then slammed a turn 4 Jace. He kept a land light hand, so aggressive fate-sealing slowed him down while I set up a large Entreat. Game 2, I aggressively cycled Brainstorms and flashed in a Snapcaster early. Eventually found my one Blood Moon, used both Cliques to keep him off of an Ugin, and unsummoned the same Forgemaster 5 times between 2 Jaces.

[JBMage]

I'm somewhere between a bunch of lists right now. There hasn't been enough non-ANT combo locally for me to want Meddling Mage right now, but I definitely do rotate it in and out. Gotta keep people guessing

Off the top of my head, this is where I think I'm at:


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will

4 Terminus

2 Dig Through Time


Sideboard:

3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict

You listed only 20 lands. Do you have any mana issues? Seems a low count for a control deck curving with 3 Jaces..

[Syntex]

What's everyone's thoughts on 3 counterbalance vs 4? I personally run three but I see a lot of lists running four and it never seems to be discussed as to why people play the fourth or not.

Also I find that one DTT is best since it doesn't play well with counterbalance now that TC is gone. I think the 3 DTT is too much and doesn't play best with snapcasters.

Also what is everyone's opinion on running a mountain over a second volcanic? I almost have my deck done but I don't have any volcanics and I'm using a shock land in the meantime. I like the ability to go up against delver and not get locked out of red. I haven't run into and problems with it. Sure having it in your opening hand sucks but what's worse is getting it wasted then getting the second one wasted and unable to cast your blasts vs them. Thoughts?


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[Bosque]

I've found that these 12 cards have helped me handle land drops in a 20 land build.

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

[alphastryk]

You listed only 20 lands. Do you have any mana issues? Seems a low count for a control deck curving with 3 Jaces..

Yep, 20 lands. The 21st isn't quite worth it. You can use Ponder and Top to make land drops if needed - I've never had any issues.

What's everyone's thoughts on 3 counterbalance vs 4? I personally run three but I see a lot of lists running four and it never seems to be discussed as to why people play the fourth or not.

Also I find that one DTT is best since it doesn't play well with counterbalance now that TC is gone. I think the 3 DTT is too much and doesn't play best with snapcasters.

Also what is everyone's opinion on running a mountain over a second volcanic? I almost have my deck done but I don't have any volcanics and I'm using a shock land in the meantime. I like the ability to go up against delver and not get locked out of red. I haven't run into and problems with it. Sure having it in your opening hand sucks but what's worse is getting it wasted then getting the second one wasted and unable to cast your blasts vs them. Thoughts?

3 vs 4 Counterbalances is pretty close. I think having the 4th really helps see it early and often, and lets you get a second one going if your first is answered. I've played both a lot though.

I used to run a maindeck Mountain, but there are a lot fewer decks where I want red that will wasteland me than there used to be, so I'm not playing one now. I definitely wouldn't play the Mountain at a land count below 22.

Dig is a great way to setup either CB + Top or BS + Miracle on demand. It uses a resource you don't touch much otherwise to give excellent card selection in long games. I think there is a max of 4 Snapcaster / Dig slots (GY-dependant lategame), and I'd rather mix and match. The 3rd Snapcaster has always been bad for me, but having a few copies lets you 'tutor' for any spell you've already played in long games.