[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Warden]

I tested a Junk-fit list (really just a pile of cards) this past weekend to 3-2-0 results. Not sure how I feel about the deck, and I'll post my list later, but I have some takeaways:
1. Deed is fantastic. 3 for sure.
2. Opposing planeswalkers need an answer. Lost to Ugin and Jace hitting the table ---> Vindicate or Pulse would have worked wonders
3. I tried the SFM plan and ultimately don't like it (SFM -> batterskull was a really strong line all day though)
4. I wanted more than 1x Rec. Sage and 1x Witness
5. Thrun shoulda been in the main, not SB
6. Rhino in the opening hand gives me mixed feelings

[tilzinger]

I tested a Junk-fit list (really just a pile of cards) this past weekend to 3-2-0 results. Not sure how I feel about the deck, and I'll post my list later, but I have some takeaways:
1. Deed is fantastic. 3 for sure.
2. Opposing planeswalkers need an answer. Lost to Ugin and Jace hitting the table ---> Vindicate or Pulse would have worked wonders
3. I tried the SFM plan and ultimately don't like it (SFM -> batterskull was a really strong line all day though)
4. I wanted more than 1x Rec. Sage and 1x Witness
5. Thrun shoulda been in the main, not SB
6. Rhino in the opening hand gives me mixed feelings

What were you finding you wanted most from more Eternal Witnesses?

Also, why Reclamation Sage over Qasali Pridemage?

[sdematt]

One colour.

[Arianrhod]

One colour.

Also synergizes a little better with Therapy, Tower, Intent/Sidisi, etc, because it leaves a body behind.

I'm actually playing in a local tonight. I'll have some thoughts and a list upon my return. It's basically Thune splashing Slaughter Games in the sideboard.

[sdematt]

Im on junk plus games as well. Sorry for brevity, typign this while I sit at the beach.

[Ralf]

@Arian: I'll make a proper BUG analysis of my choices (card by card) tomorrow if I have enough time.

DTT was obviously tested as a 1-of. The card has some insane raw power but finally I found it unecessary.
4 ponder and 4 brainstorm are enough in terms of card selection and ensure that you get to trade 1vs1 until your deck goes over the top.

Also I tried at all cost to avoid double color requirement in a deck where ramping is your primary key of success and where I have stretched the mana base like a tempo deck.

At last as you mentioned, it tends to delay quite a bit "empty the pit".

It tooks me 5 months (since last christmas) and hundreds of games with my small team to get a 75 running.

The hardest MU excluding manlands based decks to fix was D&T. Properly played, D&T is a nightmare. We barely manage to get a 50/50 thanks to Ooze which was not originally included.

All in all the deck is really enjoyable to play for any decent nic fit & control pilot. Decision trees are among the hardest to make but the higher the risks the higher the reward.

If you wanna make your opponent tilt (like I did to the MUD player last time), you'll have some great great fun.

Any feedbacks / questions would be much appreciated as I think the deck is now mature enough. Obviously, some sideboard choices are highly meta dependant and fairly debatable.

Thanks for reading.

[Ralf]

that mana cost is the real deal also.. one miser forest on the board hoses casting him.

Yes. THAT mana damn cost. Urborg might be our new best friend. The mana base would have to be reworked a bit to include a pair of urborg as I believe one would not be enough.

Anyway, it will take more than a few games to determine if the Demigod idea is a good one or not.
3 or 4 will also have to be settled but in a test period you want to max it out to draw any meaningful conclusion.

I'm glad some of you jumped in !!! The more, the merrier.

[Arianrhod]

Didn't get to play much -- low turnout didn't help, and I had to attempt to tolerate a particularly odious person whom I despise that I was unaware would be at the store tonight, so I actually said fuck it and left early before causing a scene. Basically only had one match vs DnT, in which I got him to 1 before he stabilized g1, and then g2 I never drew a second G/B source for my hand of Golgari Charm, Decay, double Deed. Like a turn 6 Thalia saved his ass game one when he didn't realize it would actually do anything -- but it locked up my mana enough that I couldn't loop Rhino to kill on the spot, which would've been game.

Initial impression for the first time playing it since like October -- yeah, Rhino is real. The amount of pressure Rhino generates on its own without any bullshit backing it up (elspeths, equips, exalted, etc) is nuts. The Thune package felt as clunky as ever...arguably more so now that Sidisi is basically mandatory as yet another 5-drop. Unfortunately I feel as compelled to include a combo finish as ever, because regardless of durdle or clunk, I really do believe that nic fit as a whole is better when there's a combo in it.

Note that I will not defend my list. In fact, I don't even feel like typing it up. It was basically garbage. The sideboard was sweet, though:

3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nether Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Garruk Relentless

The two planeswalkers were my usual two "fair.dec over the top" slots. I mostly went with them because I originally wanted 2 copies of each maindeck but had to cut them for space, and I was running short on time to come up with anything better. There's definitely better candidates for these slots, but assuming that they continue to be used as fair.dec toppers, I will say that I feel pretty confidant in this sideboard. It's prepared for basically anything -- the usual candidates still slip through the cracks, but I've long since given up hope of ever having a good matchup vs MUD, 12post, etc.

Also, the interaction between Slaughter Games and Nether Void rustles my jimmies. I can't wait to do that to some asshole combo player.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

In other news, telegraphed hatred kills with Ralf's cunning wish deck are just offensive.

Ralf, what other instants were you considering for the board? So far during the few matches I've played I've only replaced the crypt incursion with a ravenous trap for a little more versatility, I've also just grown fond of the card after playing vintage online for a while. Dig through time is something else I want to test out but I have a feeling it's just worse then grabbing a high impact spell like empty or hatred.

[Bobmans]

I really do believe that nic fit as a whole is better when there's a combo in it.

Agreed, having that inevitable win (now) is missing in both Rhino as PFire builds.
Something just holds me back to start playing Scape.

Also, the interaction between Slaughter Games and Nether Void rustles my jimmies. I can't wait to do that to some asshole combo player.

[Ralf]

In other news, telegraphed hatred kills with Ralf's cunning wish deck are just offensive.

Ralf, what other instants were you considering for the board? So far during the few matches I've played I've only replaced the crypt incursion with a ravenous trap for a little more versatility, I've also just grown fond of the card after playing vintage online for a while. Dig through time is something else I want to test out but I have a feeling it's just worse then grabbing a high impact spell like empty or hatred.

I apology for the incoming wall of text. Here is a not so quick sum up so that anyone could jump in.

Deck history:

Since the print of "Empty the Pit" I have been working on a list to make that game ending spell "legacy playable".

1) I mentioned it the first time in this thread here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post851242

2) Then, after a good testing period:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post854002

3) Here is the first iteration including Cunning Wishes:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post856127

4) Here is the first time I have included "Hatred" as a faster win condition against decks where you are playing the "aggro" role:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post859699

This list is a very good starting point as I spent the whole Christmas holidays playing against my team and tuning the deck.

5) The first list I played in a local tournament:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post866754

Here is a list of SB instant spells that have been used/dismissed/put aside depending on your meta:

- Pact of Negation
- Ravenous Trap
- Slaughter Pact
- Meditate
- Krosan grip

The list might be not comprehensive at all, but at some points, those cards were heavily tested.

I used to be playing "ravenous trap" as another gravehate spell but with the recent inclusion of Scavenging Ooze, the card no longer feels necessary. Too much redundancy will get you. Yet, it is a total blowout in some MU (Dredge / Storm namely). As a matter of fact, I would not dismiss "crypt incursion" too hastily. Although the card can seem "poor" at first sight, I found it has a much broader application than the say "ravenous trap".
I've won games with Crypt incursion against dredge like I would have with ravenous trap. But I've also managed to get very far ahead against Aggro or Tempo decks where no other card could have saved my butt. Gaining 15 life points on average is no joke. It is even better in a control shell buying you more turns to crawl back into a dominant board position.

DTT was never considered as a sideboard option. Actually if you look at the very first lists, during testing, it took the 2nd Jace place and finally was completely cut from the 75.
As aforementioned, you already have plenty card selections and I tend to not fall into the "cantrips into cantrips into cantrips" mind tricks.

We went back & forth wondering with my team whether the deck really needs a big draw spell as a wish target. We believe it does not, even more when we had to reduce the number of main deck wishes down from 4 to 3. I might be proven wrong here, that is the main point of sharing the list in this thread.

Furthermore, we stuck to the initial plan: play as many spells as possible that grow the graveyard without letting know your opponent you are advancing your game to the point you will be able to instantly kill him.
Therefore a few cards got the axe:
1) Sensei's divining top is a huge asset but it does not grow the grave. As the mana base was stretched to the point it is now, sensei was slowing us down (as also the game's path). Furthermore, sensei was also adding an unnecessary heavy branch to a decision tree already complex. It got the axe.
2) Once Sensei was gone preventing the deck from being played out of the top of your library, Liliana +1 effect was more a liability in a reactive deck than anything else. She got the axe.
3) At some point the creature package was including one or a pair of Vendilion Clique. This might be the creature I miss the most but the UU cost made it very difficult to include when you first goal is to reach UBG as fast as possible.
4) The weakest cards in the deck are the charms. But when they are strong, they are really really good. Often times they have replaced the wish I safely keep for later on during the game because of their unique effect. Often times, they are reshuffled with a BS into the library...

By no mean this list should be considered as a "set in stone" 75. If I had to set some core cards in stone it would definitely be:
- Cabal Therapy
- Veteran
- Baleful strix
- Glen Elendra Archmage
- Abrupt decays & sweepers (PD, Toxic, etc)
- Blue cantrips (BS & Ponders)

Therefore, I invite anyone interested in such a shell to test it and draw its own conclusion and share it.

It is completely "off the radar" and you will get a lot of wins just because your opponent is not ready to face such a "weird" Nic Fit build.
Anyway, you will win many games just through the "good old aggro route" punching faces with GLE, Vet & Ooze. Otherwise, you'll get to punch some faces out of nowhere.

More to come later (especially a SB card full explanation).

Thanks for having reached so far !

[Tom4ik]

Here is the 75 that I went 5-0-2 with at the 80 man on sunday. I have stayed with the main deck for a few weeks now but the SB gets changed up.

2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 creeping tarpit
1 tropical island
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
2 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 thragtusk

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstrom
4 force of will
2 dig through time
2 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil

SB
3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 negate
1 dispel
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 maelstrom pulse
2 notion thief


Played against Bant blade, bug delver, goblins, rug delver, mentor miracles (terminus no entreat). Drew my next 2 rounds and then was knocked out of top 8 by post mud.

I know Ralfs deck plays out fairly differently but I have been finding Dig to be amazing. Being able to dig for jace plus deed or some other double bomb pull is too good and even if you don't run it main 1 in the side to turn cunning wishes into actual CA seems good. I tested a 4 wish package but kind of felt that the 3 mana tacked onto answers made it a little slow and that there were times I would want to wish for just some gas but didnt have anything. This was before dig so I actually tried out Fact for a bit. Never ran it in a tourny though. I ended up moving more to a bug control style with vet and therapy to cheat on land count.

I boarded force out a lot. Came out in my first 4 match ups. I still like running it main as the deck is all 2 for 1's that can help get the CA back and protecting Tasigur and Jace is also fine. Makes the combo match-ups a little better pre board. Post board I feel fairly fine against most combo with discard, counters and "lock" pieces in surgical and notion thief.

[Ralf]

Here is the 75 that I went 5-0-2 with at the 80 man on sunday. I have stayed with the main deck for a few weeks now but the SB gets changed up.

2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 creeping tarpit
1 tropical island
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
2 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 thragtusk

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstrom
4 force of will
2 dig through time
2 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil

SB
3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 negate
1 dispel
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 maelstrom pulse
2 notion thief

It reminds me the time I was playing a heavy Walker Fit list or even the good old Pernicious Jace BUG deck.

Jace + Liliana will always be a good way to close out games.
I played Tasigur in a "nearly miracle" esper list for a while and the card is insane coupled with DTT + Sensei. Once active, you are almost able to choose the card your opponent has to give you back with Tasigur ability.
Did you ever try sensei in your list ?

I can see that I'm not the only stretching his mana base with BUG Fit.

21 lands among which you have 2 Pit (it is a good way to sink your mana). Did you ever experience any problem as your curve is a bit higher than mine ?

I don't know if you ever tried out Glen Elendra Archmage ? I have never been impressed that much by notion thief.

Finally, moving forward what changes would you make to your initial list ?

[Star|Scream]

Tom,

I'm a weekly watcher of the Meadery legacy (and modern.) I love that there are no commentators and we can hear the players. I guess the 80 man tournament was not broadcast? Bummer.

I really like your version of Bug Fit. You eschew all the "cute" stuff and finishers for solid control elements and card advantage. Congrats on your finish.

I can build this deck minus one Jace. Would you suggest an additional lili or a ponder in its place?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Thanks for the huge reply Ralf, lots of good info there and a perfect example of why I love watching this thread.

I do like your points about crypt incursion and I'll definitely keep that in mind. I was considering it's application when under pressure but haven't really had the need for it yet so I could be undervaluing it.

The charms were also exactly what you described, occasional all stars with dimir charm being very impressive and golgari charm doing it's normal thing of saving me from blood moon. If I were to cut one I think it would be replacing the md golgari charm with another deluge. The innocent blood is another main deck card I wasn't the most impressed with and may be changing. Not sure what I would want in it's spot yet though. Part of me just wants the fourth strix.

[Dzogchen]

Hey all, I'm hoping I can get some community feedback on my list. The main 61 has been the exact same for a good while now, and while the sideboard changes around a bit, this is its current form. I was going 2-2 at our events for a long time, then a few 3-1's but I've not yet managed to crack the 4-0 with it. I definitely don't get to run the number of reps with it that many people do so I was wondering if some more of our...veterans...eh..EH?...sigh...could see if there was anything clearly to be improved or if the thing to improve is just my playing. Thanks everyone!

Land (22)
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Creature (14)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Diabolic Intent
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay (fixed!)
3x Path to Exile

Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Choke
1x Cranial Extraction
3x Duress
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge

A note about the Duresses in the board over Thoughtseize (and I'm still on the fence about this logic) but it occurred to me that what Nic Fit is really good at, particularly in these colors is removing creature threats, either with Decay, Path, or Deed. The hard matchups came from combo decks and Duress gets the spells that we care about out of their hand anyway. On the other hand, life against those decks doesn't always matter, but it could buy you a little more time. That might be totally wrong, but I'd been trying it out.

[sdematt]

Have you found 5 Abrupt Decay to be enough? I think you should put another one in the board.

-Matt

[Dzogchen]

Have you found 5 Abrupt Decay to be enough? I think you should put another one in the board.

-Matt

Whoops! Typo there for sure. It flip flops from 4 main, to 3 main 1 board. Sorry folks!

[sdematt]

I'm obviously kidding.

How do you find Intent still? I've cut it for a Sylvan Library to test, and so far, Sylvan does work.

-Matt

[Dzogchen]

I'm obviously kidding.

How do you find Intent still? I've cut it for a Sylvan Library to test, and so far, Sylvan does work.

-Matt

Well, honestly Intent hasn't come up often, but when it has its been really good, in some cases pulling me out of nearly unwinnable games. If I was going to run a one-of between the two, I figured at least one gets me anything I want it to (obviously as long as I fulfill the sac clause). I almost considered running a Dryad Arbor to enable 'GSZ for 0, Intent, get something else' plays. That being said, I'm still not 100% on it.