All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

I seriously doubt that. There is likely a large population of players who refuse to play in the format because of how degenerate certain cards might be (Brainstorm possibly being one of those), not necessarily 100% price alone.. If Brainstorm or more leaves and others come back to try and fill the void, the format may as well be turned upside down - enticing new and existing players to tinker in the format without it.

The price barrier has always been an issue, but I'm not sold on that from stopping a heavier percentage of those people from giving it a go, at least for a few months.

My casually playing friends don't like Legacy that much because all decks feel the same, for what it's worth.

Will the absence of one card really have that much of an effect on the format? I mean, I know Brainstorm is amazing and is featured in nearly every single blue deck, but will the banning of one card really open up the format to all kinds of other possibilities? Blue will still have its Forces and its other Cantrips; it's not like blue will suddenly become completely bad.

If BS and Dig are gone, things will even up a lot - Blue decks will have to consider how clunky the cards they run are, they have to commit more to card selection, discard will become better. It's very true that Blue won't suddenly become bad - but that's hardly the point, now is it? At least I don't want to stamp blue out of the format, I just want to make the question "Do I want to run blue" an actual question rather than a given for practically every archetype.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Will the absence of one card really have that much of an effect on the format?

Doesn't the existence of a Banned List prove that it does?

Otherwise why would cards need to be banned if they didn't have that much of an effect?

[iamajellydonut]

My casually playing friends don't like Legacy that much because all decks feel the same, for what it's worth.

And, for what it's worth, how many of those casual friends would be willing to shell out close to three grand to play if the decks no longer felt the same?

[Ace/Homebrew]

How many would be willing to shell out close to three grand to play?

Whenever the reality of this statement hits me, I start to question my priorities in life... Then I look through my deck and get irritated at each non-foil in it.

[iamajellydonut]

Whenever the reality of this statement hits me, I start to question my priorities in life... Then I look through my deck and get irritated at each non-foil in it.

It's a strange case of priorities when I honestly have an internal debate of whether to fix my life or buy a playset of stamped Lilianas. And it becomes an even stranger case when it turns out in retrospect that buying the playset of stamped Lilianas would have actually helped to fix my life.

That being said, I'll trade you all of my foil staples (basically Chimeric Idol and close to fifty Kruin Outlaws) for all of your heavily played or endearingly damaged staples.

[Chatto]

If wotc don't care why even have the format? Do you realize how stupid that argument is right?

Why do anything you die anyway

Now now, Gheizen64, let's keep it cool, shall we? This is just the reason there cannot be argued with people like you... We all die...

That said, it's my firm believe that Legacy exist because people like me, and in some extence you, like to play old cards. We buy our single cards at vendors. If you only play Legacy, you hardly ever buy booster-packs because most of the cards are crap (from a Legacy point-of-view) anyway. So does Legacy, from a economic reason has any value for a multinational company? No.

WotC really does not care about Legacy, or Vintage, because there is no money to be made with these formats. Once in a while, they throw us a bone, just to keep us happy. Sad thing is, it is never the bone we would like.

Banning or unbanning will almost always resort in rants (like mine) and deathwishes thrown at you (albeit nicely concealed, by people like you, dear Gheizen64). If WotC really cares about our beloved format, let them print some power for non-Blue decks, ban them directly for other formats but Legacy (and perhaps Vintage), and let all be like it is today.

With that said, I'll leave this marvelous 'discussion' without an end

[Dice_Box]

Orbs I feel is printed directly for Vintage, as was Containment Priest.

[iamajellydonut]

Sad thing is, it is never the bone we would like.

Legacy crowd wants that d.

Honestly, I think the best improvement they could make for the health of the format is still the removal of the reserved list. A little before this most recent bubble I was vehemently against the removal of the restricted list, but the recent past has made it clear that without the removal of the reserved list, this format will fall completely to the wayside and decay. And it's not like they have to do make a snap announcement and implement it on the spot. They can make an announcement that in something like three years the reserved list will be dissolved. Give enough time for anyone who wants out to get out without without any financial loss while guaranteeing the future of Eternal Magic.

Some people say there's rumors of a legal agreement, but so what? It's worth biting the bullet and dissolving whatever necessary for the future of the format, and plus they'd be able to recoup at least some of whatever penalties may occur with the ability to print even more money.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It's my firm believe that Legacy exist because people like me, and in some extence you, like to play old cards.

Legacy is about card power, not age.
93/94 is about playing with old cards.

They can make an announcement that in something like three years the reserved list will be dissolved. Give enough time for anyone who wants out to get out without without any financial loss while guaranteeing the future of Eternal Magic.

It wouldn't work like that though... Eliminating the Reserved List would have an immediate effect on card prices. Who would pay $400 for a Bazaar of Baghdad if there wasn't a guarantee more couldn't be printed in the future? The only reason people pay the ridiculous price is because there's no way around it. "They're not going to make more, so I guess this is what I have to pay."

Prices wouldn't plummet immediately, but there would be a non-zero price drop and that would be enough to generate a negative response from the people the Reserved List is intended to (not sure what word to use here...) protect?

I support removing the reserved list though. #ReprintsMatter

[Gheizen64]

Legacy can't grow that much it cost way too much as a base investment. On the other hand, some people leaving the format and selling their staples could drive the price down and as such attract new players to join.

I predict nothing will happen, the format will die naturally, and wotc will cash cow modern with 10$ for a booster sets with a chance for a mythical goyf.

[sjmcc13]

Honestly, I think the best improvement they could make for the health of the format is still the removal of the reserved list. A little before this most recent bubble I was vehemently against the removal of the restricted list, but the recent past has made it clear that without the removal of the reserved list, this format will fall completely to the wayside and decay. And it's not like they have to do make a snap announcement and implement it on the spot. They can make an announcement that in something like three years the reserved list will be dissolved. Give enough time for anyone who wants out to get out without without any financial loss while guaranteeing the future of Eternal Magic.

This, the reserved list serves NO ONE, it is even bad for the collectors in the long run, as the price inflation will lead to a collapse of the player bases that reduces the value of their cards the same way chronicles did.

If Wizards were to modify the policy to allow re-printings to negate the effect of price spikes, buyouts, etc while being restricted enough that the older cards can still increase in value slowly then it would solve ALLOT of problems. But that means they need to be willing to tank the prices of cards that should not be as high as they are (looking at you goyf, the card is to expensive and a barrier to deck types in both Legacy and modern). If they want to support EDH (am I the only one who thinks significantly more of the price increases come from EDH then from Legacy) properly then they will likely need to do this eventually.

Announce well in advance, put stipulations on how it will be used, and ensure that any new printings are less desirable then the originals (no foils, white borders, design and use a new card face that no one would like, etc) so as to minimize the impact on collectors. Done right this could even BOOST the prices of the older printings, as people will want the more desirable printings.

[iamajellydonut]

It wouldn't work like that though... Eliminating the Reserved List would have an immediate effect on card prices. Who would pay $400 for a Bazaar of Baghdad if there wasn't a guarantee more couldn't be printed in the future? The only reason people pay the ridiculous price is because there's no way around it. "They're not going to make more, so I guess this is what I have to pay."

Prices wouldn't plummet immediately, but there would be a non-zero price drop and that would be enough to generate a negative response from the people the Reserved List is intended to (not sure what word to use here...) protect?

"Any financial loss" was probably a poor choice of words. The prices certainly wouldn't skyrocket as a result of the announcement and would definitely dip a little bit, but what are players going to do if they want to start playing Legacy or Vintage? Wait three years before buying in? There would be a non-zero drop, but it wouldn't so significant that it would cripple collections, and it would ultimately help them retain even higher future values. And if it were determined that three years wasn't enough to prevent those who want "out" from losing significant value, then it could be four or five years instead.

[Crimhead]

If wotc don't care why even have the format? Do you realize how stupid that argument is right?

Why do anything you die anyway

If WotC go bankrupt tomorrow, I will still want to play Legacy.
I hope the community will keep the game alive forever.

[MGB]

This, the reserved list serves NO ONE, it is even bad for the collectors in the long run, as the price inflation will lead to a collapse of the player bases that reduces the value of their cards the same way chronicles did.

If Wizards were to modify the policy to allow re-printings to negate the effect of price spikes, buyouts, etc while being restricted enough that the older cards can still increase in value slowly then it would solve ALLOT of problems. But that means they need to be willing to tank the prices of cards that should not be as high as they are (looking at you goyf, the card is to expensive and a barrier to deck types in both Legacy and modern). If they want to support EDH (am I the only one who thinks significantly more of the price increases come from EDH then from Legacy) properly then they will likely need to do this eventually.

Announce well in advance, put stipulations on how it will be used, and ensure that any new printings are less desirable then the originals (no foils, white borders, design and use a new card face that no one would like, etc) so as to minimize the impact on collectors. Done right this could even BOOST the prices of the older printings, as people will want the more desirable printings.

The best reply to the reserved list discussion I've seen was a post by Ross Edwards on the MTGSalvation forums a while back in which he described the legal liabilities that Wizards may be setting themselves up for if they abolish the reserved list:

From http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m...on?comment=813:

The reserved list came about because of extremely negative customer reaction to the reprints in Chronicles and 4th Edition. Sales dropped. As a palliative measure, WOTC reassured the customer base that they would not reprint anything and everything, but only certain things. This promise had the desired effect of stabilizing sales, which means the promise induced at least some customers to buy who might not have bought if the promise had not been made. When a vendor makes a promise, even gratuitous, that induces a customer to make a buying decision, under the common law of contracts and under the Uniform Commercial Code a court would typically impute that promise to be a term of the subsequent sale. To use your words, a "legally binding contract." Yep. Further, on the other side of the equation, the common laws of equity and estoppel protect a customer who relied to his or her detriment on that promise (this is a legal term of art meaning they spent money on WOTC products after taking WOTC at their word that the promise would be upheld) so if WOTC broke that promise they could be in an actionable position on the class of customers who made buying decisions thereon.

How actionable a position could this be? Well, it is possible that stabilizing sales at that point brought WOTC past a tipping point and made MTG sustainable long-term instead of just a fad, leaving WOTC actionable for all the profit they have made on MTG since then. This amount could be staggering of course. But it doesn't have to be that much for it to be too much legal risk. Why? Again under the common law of contracts, a party cannot profit by violating a term of contract. The typical damages under the Uniform Commercial Code are trebled -- that is, in short, that class of customers could sue WOTC and potentially stand to disgorge WOTC of triple the total amounts of any profit they made selling reprints. We all know such reprints would sell in the millions. WOTC could stand to lose triple that amount in litigation based on this. Clearly they would never accept such risk exposure.

So, THAT is why WOTC legal stomped all over any notion of the reserved list going away or even being reduced in effectiveness. Such a judgment could crush WOTC and Hasbro. WOTC's legal counsel probably has many solid legal defenses in their arsenal and honestly might be in a good position to argue that market conditions have changed since then so much that the promise once made is no longer pertinent. However, those attorneys obviously believed the possibility of loss on those hypothetical facts to be non-zero and non-trivial. (This is a normal form of risk assessment in corporate law). And so the fallout from a couple years back and no more reserved list changes from now on, ever. And that's why you're wrong.

EDIT: While I do work in government law, I am not your attorney and this is not legal advice.

[iamajellydonut]

Well known speculation. But the truth remains that unless it's removed, there won't be a relevant Eternal format anymore. I would hope, and I pray, that such a course of action would be worth whatever penalties apply.

[MGB]

Well known speculation. But the truth remains that unless it's removed, there won't be a relevant Eternal format anymore. I would hope, and I pray, that such a course of action would be worth whatever penalties apply.

The financial risk incurred by removing the reserved list is simply NOT worth any positives that would result. At least in the eyes of Hasbro and Wizards. A strong, popular Legacy format would increase secondary market sales and might give some small increase to booster box sales, but the amount of money in that increase pales in comparison to the financial liability that have to be written into the books to describe class-action lawsuits that would inevitably result. And even if no lawsuit ever materializes... Wizards still has to factor the financial liabilities involved into their accounting.

For the players, removing the reserved list is a no-brainer. Even for most of the collectors, it's a no-brainer because in the long run, it will create more demand for product if more players play the game.

But for the company who actually is in charge of making this decision... it's a no-brainer to *keep* the Reserved List, financially speaking.

So because of some stupid, knee-jerk promises Wizards made long ago, essentially, we will never see reprints of Dual Lands unless some different corporation under a wholly different name begins printing Magic cards.

[Barook]

They could easily print Commander-related duals that are slightly better than normal duals and have no difference in functionality in normal games. The RL doesn't prevent printing better versions of old cards.

[Ace/Homebrew]

But the truth remains that unless it's removed, there won't be a relevant Eternal format anymore.

I anticipate that in 5 years Modern will be the format most people play. Legacy and Vintage will still exist but sanctioned tournaments will occur only in Eternal Weekend / Eternal Extravaganza style events.

Fortunately I live on the East coast, so I'll still get to jam sanctioned eternal cardboard 2 or 3 times a year.

Honestly, Modern seems like it is becoming an interesting format. It's not quite there yet, but a 5 year deeper card pool can very easily get it there. I've also noticed a change in attitude amongst most of the Legacy players (myself included) towards Modern. Instead of "I hate Modern!!!1!!1! ", I hear "I don't play, but I check out decklists and results".

[GundamGuy]

They could easily print Commander-related duals that are slightly better than normal duals and have no difference in functionality in normal games. The RL doesn't prevent printing better versions of old cards.

They could follow that up with banning the original dual lands... if having 8 of a single dual type was seen as too good. (I don't know that it matters that much)

Which brings up a good point about liability and why I don't think Wizards financial risk is as high as everyone acts like it is...

I don't think a lawsuit about banning a card resulting in lost secondary market value would hold up. I also don't think think you can sue them because they print a better card down the road or a card that invalidates a prior strategy resulting in a loss of secondary value.

At most I think they are liable for the cost of packs sold under the premise of no-reprints.

If they limit the reprints to the duals then that means only packs of Alpha, Beta, and Revised, sold by Wizards (not by secondary sellers) after the creation of the reserved list... which may be zero...

Let me follow this up by saying I am not a lawyer so... might be wrong to say this.

[iamajellydonut]

I've also noticed a change in attitude amongst most of the Legacy players (myself included) towards Modern. Instead of "I hate Modern!!!1!!1! ", I hear "I don't play, but I check out decklists and results".

I've noticed it too, but I've noticed it's more of a resigned acceptance of Modern's existence. No Legacy GPs. Limited local events. Where you gonna get your Magic fix now? Modern has been pushed and promoted enough that it's gone from being the red headed stepchild to more of a long-term girlfriend turned frumpy where "you gotta do what you gotta do".