If you're siding out Delvers, you are possibly playing the wrong deck. If Delver isn't what you want, then why are you on a Delver deck? It's one of the best tempo creatures there is -- if not the best -- and you're a tempo deck. If Delver is considered not good enough vs. Miracles, then either you're an ineffective tempo strategy and you need a different shell, or you should be playing a midrange or control deck that you feel is better positioned against Miracles, like maybe Grixis Control.Originally Posted by matty
I could not disagree more. Delver strategies are very powerfull because you can switch rolls between aggro and controll. Delver is a big part of the aggro side of that.
The agressive side is a very good baseline strategy for pre-board games, it gives you game against most of the field, but it is often suboptimal post-board. After board you want to be either agressive or controlling depending on the matchup.
That being said i am currently experimenting with cutting the delvers entirely to play more tarmogoyfs ;-)
I tried my Delver-less list above -1 Deluge, -1 Golgari Charm, -1 Taiga, +1 Counterspell, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Volcanic Island (and changing the Catacombs to Polluted Delta) online and at my local Legacy FNM and I really do like having the Delvers over the bigger creatures. It really helps out in the combo matchups to have a fast clock, especially when you don't have to rely on DRS to have a threat and disruption on turn 2 or in Delver mirrors where you want removal + open mana early since you're almost never the beatdown in these matchups and tapping out early on for a Wall isn't great.
I'm also trying a bunch of different decks right now, and I'm not sure where I'm going to land.
Looks like some people are already starting to take the delverless approach online:
UBRG by HJ_Kaiser (3-1)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Dig Through Time
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Dismember
2 Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize
In hindsight this may just be Goddik
Yeah, that's me.
Have been playing a couple of dailies over the weekend 1x (2-2) 2 x (3-1) and 1 (4-0).
Tarmogoyfs have for the record been amazing, i have not missed the delvers, but have won several games against grixis decks where they had tons of bolts, some where they even resolved one or more digs. Tarmogoyf just munches their face, and allows me to be agressive, where delver would simply die.
Combo seems to be completely dead on modo at the moment. I don't know if it has been banished by the millions of cabal therapies and elementals flying around
3 of my losses have been to infect. I have no idea how it is happening, but he (cartesian) seem to grind me out.....
@Einherjer, would love to know what you are brewing.... Miracles not digging hard enough?
As a side note, the badlands manabase is way superior to the taiga one. I don't know why i never saw this.... Badlands actually casts multiple spells in the deck
Nice, I was able to 3-1 today vs Infect (Cartesian, 2-1), Storm (2-1), Grixis Control (0-2), and Sylvan Plug (2-0) with the GP Lille top 8 version (with Delvers).
I really want to try out Goddik's version but I am missing Scalding Tarns, Jaces, and Thoughtseizes; all of which are pretty expensive online.
I totally agree with you! Since I saw this list from a previous post, I always play my manabase like this: 7 fetchs, 3 tropical, 2 Usea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Badlands and 4 Waste.
You always search for tropical first and then you can go for Usea, Volcanic or Badlands depending on your hand. If I have Tropical + Badlands, I usually go for Usea because of deathrite activation. With this manabase, you can go for Liliana in the sideboard if you want. I don't play her anymore but she pretty fine in the deck. 7 fetch may be to low when we are running 3 Dig through time. Sometimes i feel like my graveyard was not big enough.
I'm actually playing 3 decay but I'm considering to move one in sideboard and go with the 3 thoughseize + 3-4 goyf build.
T1: Thoughseize
T2: Tarmo + Daze back up seems to be a strong start. If you go delverless, i'll go 4 discard for sur.
This new delverless approach is interesting. I feel it like a blue midrange list being a sort of blue Jund. Can have some strong start and then tempo out the opponent with cheap spell and card advantage. Maybe give a try to punishing fire. :-P
But I think it isn't tempo anymore. Maybe we have to start a new thread in New and Developmental Section of the forum.
I'm sad because I have no time to test this version of the deck. :'(
Hello bUrg'ers! First time posting in this thread. I recently completely my deck and took it for a spin this Sunday at an SCG IQ, the first round being the first games I've ever played with the deck. I ended up not losing a game until the finals, where I punted game 2 to lose 0-2 overall. Below are the decklist (Noah Walker build taken from SCG list) and details.
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer
Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
The rounds in order:
Abzan Land Destruction - Win 2-0 (I assume had loams, but I never saw them. Did have cycling lands, sinkholes, KotR, BoBs, etc.)
Affinity - Win 2-0 (Believe this was his first legacy tourney. Nice kid, hope he keeps playing the format.)
Shardless BUG - Win 2-0 (Made a play I learned watching Eli Kasis. Bolted a 3/4 'goyf, which my opponent was happy to let resolve, then cast Angler delving my yard which kills the 'goyf before he can respond.)
UWR Stoneblade - ID (We play it out and I win in 3.)
UWR Stoneblade - ID
Top 8:
Merfolk - Win 2-0 (Close games, but gitaxian probes give me the information I need to sequence much better than him.)
UWR Stoneblade - Win 2-0 (I remember probes again giving me super valuable information to time my threats/wastelands perfectly.)
Infect - 0-2 (Opponent picked his times to go for it very well and in game 2 I just forgot how vines works.)
Overall, the deck just clicked from the moment I started playing it. I come from playing Elves and have never touched brainstorm/FoW before, so it was so fun getting to cast new spells. I loved the maindeck and wouldn't change a thing. The SB is flexible as always, and decay will probably get changed for something else before the next tourney. Likely a darkblast, surgical extraction, or null rod. I can't wait to play it more and (hopefully) contribute to the thread.
Just 3-0d at my shop. Beat Maverick 2-1, beat jeskai blade 2-0, then beat bant blade 2-1. Still playing Tomas Mar's prague eternal list, but with more removal in the sideboard.
Thank you for sharing, but it's not really bUrg Delver. It's more like Grixis Delver splashing green for deathrite activation. There is only 1 green spell in the sideboard (except of deathrite shaman) and usually there is no green spell in this deck.
You maybe want to check this threads instead.
bUrg Delver play spell of all the 4 colors. You can check this deck too. It's really fun to play it and it becomes more popular in EU. ;-)
Can you be more precise and tell us what change you made in your sideboard. I think it's really important to write which cards you changed and how you felt them in your 75 in your meta. Sometimes, it's really hard to have a good sideboard in this deck. Having detailed report about the sideboard card is really useful and may improve our understanding of deck from your point of view. If you know what I mean.
+1 both statements
Splash more green for AD or Library MD and your in our club
Currently playingEldrazi
Ah, thanks for the clarification guys. I really wasn't sure which thread was right since there are many new variations of this type of deck. Just means I need to monitor both threads :)
Mainboard: Mar's exact 75 -1 Misty Rainforest +1 Wasteland, -1 Snapcaster Mage +1 True-Name Nemesis
Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Submerge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
The pulse was very good, being able to take out whatever permanent I needed to get rid of. I dont have as much green in my meta so Submerge was reduced to 1 copy. The singleton Library in the main is enough due to the lack of miracles in my meta, so I replaced that with a Dismember for the fair matchups. Finally, with the last Wasteland moved to the mainboard, I had room for Grafdigger's because I expect Storm and Elves.
The games I lost were often game 1s where the countermagic was bad (Maverick) and I board in extremely efficient answers in their place (Golg Charm, Forked Bolt).
In the UWR blade matchup, game 1 I established a true name with him at 10 life, and even though he connected 1 time with a jitte, lightning bolt let me race him. Game 2 he bloodmooned himself out of the game while I had a Deathrite in play with a couple of lands in the yard, so I played a goyf and beat down.
The bant match was strange. Game 1 I tempod him out easily with 3 lightning bolts to answer his creatures. Game 2 he played two noble hierarchs and a clique and beat for 5 for several turns while I was stuck on 1 Underground Sea (brainstorm + ponder in opener couldnt find more). Game 3 was super close, but I had just enough DRS activations for the win.
Last edited by ironclad8690; 07-21-2015 at 03:18 PM.
Really thank you! It's really helpful and always interesting. For some people, certain choices are obvious but it's not the case of everybody. We have to think about that.
And it provides a more methodical approach of the deck development.
I think the primer needs really a big update. The deck is becoming more popular and the Dig Through Time is really necessary in the pack.
Some relevant information must be underlying like how to play some cards like Sylvan Library.
We can take some relevant article like the one of Einherjer about forcing Top T1 against Miracle, etc.
Sasan is always on the forum or did he leave?
If he's here, we can always send him the modification of the primer. Or maybe he can come back here and play bUrg again!
The mana-base in this thing terrifies me. Not on what to play, but doesnt it just get crushed by RUG delver?
As bad as being 4 c is for our manabase, us having deathrite shaman is worse for them. So i would say, not necessarily
What makes the matchup challenging is typically more that their creatures are better and more resilient then ours. They have nimble mongoos and tarmogoyf which are both very hard to handle, whereas we have only tarmogoyf that doesnt die to bolt (in the go top 8 list), or nemesis (in the more midrangy list)
Played in a Daily and went 0-2 drop losing to two burn decks. I have to say this match up doesn't seem very good. Grim lavamancer can shrink goyf and dome all of our creatures. I also drew somewhat poorly, but it really felt like I was behind the entire game. Anyone else experience this?
And we have bolt AND decay. So their goyf can be kill too. It's not the case with us or it's at least 2 for 1. :D
But it's true that sometimes it goes wrong and they can just mana denial us to death...
I play the matchup in aggro mode, we don't stand a chance if we go in the mid/late game. I think Goyf is really good (stop goblin guide and other early aggression). We can let land/instant/sorcery in our graveyard pretty easily.
Creature comes too if we play a deathrite. :D
But this match up is sometimes really hard. I feel like it's like we are really dependent of our draw. Searing blaze and PoP are really hard for us too.
Yes, I was not questioning 4-color delver's power level. It is the mana base that is terrifying and is the obvious angle you attack this kind of strategy.
It can completely fold to wasteland / stifle. Also opening hands like Abrupt Decay, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite, Deathrite, Wasteland, XXX, Volcanic Island do happen.
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