All B/R update speculation.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, unfortunately this data table doesn't mean anything to people like crimhead and lemnear because they think the format can be balanced even if every deck is blue, strategies are different and the game is enjoyable even if everyone plays the same 12+ cantrips in their decks.

i strongly dislike this way of thinking, but i respect it. I still hope someday wizard will do something radical to weaken the blue shell or otherwise the format will stay the same forever until it fades away. Just sometimes a new stupid powerful card will be printed and become the new win condition of cantrips.decks

[solidbass]

Yo, science bitch!



Agreed. Also Delver. Because it's just too easy to play all the best cards in the other 4 colors plus have the blue shell with the most efficient threat (which also happens to be in-color).

Edit: Didn't want to double post so some additional thoughts.
To be honest those statistics are fucked up. I haven't played Legacy in over 12 months because frankly I think it sucks. But my personal opinion is, Legacy is the format of old, powerful and elegant cards. So if the format is fucked up, the banlist should protect the legacy of the game (pun intended) as much as the balance of the format and get rid of all of the newly printed, power creeped bullshit. I'd rather play a format where things like Survival and Necro are unbanned but bullshit from the new era like Omniscience, Delver, TNN etc. are banned. And also the sorcery speed cantrips. I find instant speed stack interaction fun and the game mechanics of the old cards amazing. So I'd rather see a controversial rehaul of the B&R list than to see simple Brainstorm gone. That is all imo, because that's my opinion of the game.

Perfectly put. Get rid of all the power creeped bull shit.

[MGB]

Another writer and (good) player - and a control freak who never met a control strategy he didn't like (Shaheen Soorani) - calling for the banning of the stupid, inane Sensei's Divining Top in Legacy:

Miracles has been the best control deck in Legacy for years now, being used faithfully by BBD, Reid Duke, and many more heavy hitters. It's a control deck that has all of the most powerful card draw and removal spells alongside a free combo. The combo is essentially free because Sensei's Divining Top is already a powerful card on its own. Sensei's Divining Top allows a player to set up draws and find answers with very little drawback. When we combine it with Counterbalance, any opponent on the other side of the table wants nothing more than to concede and move to the next game... but they don't. I wouldn't either, and that creates the biggest time issue that this fantastic game can experience. Sensei's Divining Top requires maybe fifteen seconds at most per activation, but it is used nonstop from the very first turn. When the draws have to be perfectly placed on top of the library, those decisions become more difficult and time-consuming.

...

Miracles may be the toughest deck in Legacy to play, and that goes for the most experienced player down to one that is just getting into competitive Legacy. Brainstorm is tough enough to figure out once, but then you throw in four artifacts that can Brainstorm whenever you want and now we have a problem. Control in Standard is tough to play, and when you take that tough decision tree into Eternal formats it gets even harder. I empathize with those administering the tournaments, however, the key problem I have with unreasonably slow decks is not that they draw themselves out of contention if their pilots are not operating at their peak, it's the unavoidable unintentional draws that the opponents of these slow players will receive. Scolding people for not screaming “Judge!” five minutes into a match at the first hint of slow play isn't how we solve these problems.

What can be done, then, to improve Legacy at the competitive level? Break out the banhammer my friends and cut the legs off of both these decks. I would have removed Sensei's Divining Top from Legacy a long time ago. It's always difficult to carve a piece or two out of decks that abuse the format in a way where it doesn't leave a power void for other decks to attempt to fill and dominate, and a concern that such bannings may have collateral consequences is entirely valid, so it's important to ban the right card to only affect the decks that deserve it. Sensei's Divining Top is a great Magic card, and luckily it's only played heavily in one deck. The card I'd select to get banned from Lands is much trickier to determine. We could destroy their ability to win through burn by removing Punishing Fire, but that hurts Jund and other Tier Three decks that may enjoy the fair removal combo with Grove of the Burnwillows. I'm afraid that removing Dark Depths may not slay the beast completely, but that land is at least only used in the deck in question here. If I was a member of Wizards of the Coast tasked with nominating a card for removal I would vote for Punishing Fire, but that is purely based on my hatred for the card with a complete acknowledgement of my personal bias. The more logical removal would be between Dark Depths and Life from the Loam, which are rarely used outside of the Lands strategy. Legacy is sweet, slow play is terrible, and that's what I wish would change to improve it.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Solutions.html

I fully agree with this, and I'm glad one of the better players in this community had the nerve to put this out there. SDT is just such a poisonous card in this format that causes so many logistical problems, and its banning would be almost pure upside.

[Crimhead]

Well, unfortunately this data table doesn't mean anything to people like crimhead and lemnear because they think the format can be balanced even if every deck is blue...

I'm not sure at what point I would object to the meta soley on the grounds of colour. It do value the fact that there are tier-one decks without blue, and that most of the strongest "blue" decks run high numbers of cards from the other colours. I'm pretty sure I'd be unhappy if all the top decks where mono-blue! But I'm honestly not sure where I'd draw the line.

...strategies are different and the game is enjoyable even if everyone plays the same 12+ cantrips in their decks.

Suppose I play five rounds at my LGS and a typical night is as follows:

• One match vs some kind of Delver deck (or Infect).
• One match vs Miracles.
• One match vs another blue based control deck (Grixis or Stoneblade).
• One match vs blue based combo (Storm or S&T).
• One match vs a blue-less deck (D&T, Burn, MUD, or whatever).

To me this would be plenty of variety. No two matches would feel the same, and each would require different strategies on my part. I just don't find a meta such as this to be dull, stale, or unfun. Counting the cantrips isn't going to change my experience.

i strongly dislike this way of thinking, but i respect it.

Thanks for that! I too can respect opinions different than my own. What I don't respect is:

• When people pass off exaggeration or hyperbole as accurate description.
• When people dismiss competitive blue-less decks and their contribution to meta diversity.
• When people treat tri-coloured decks the same as mono-blue decks when comparing colour representations.
• When people claim to be objectively correct about subjective matters like format health and sufficient vs insufficient diversity.

Not everyone who is against the cantrip density exhibits this behaviour. But when people do it makes quality discourse more or less impossible.

[nedleeds]

Another writer and (good) player - and a control freak who never met a control strategy he didn't like (Shaheen Soorani) - calling for the banning of the stupid, inane Sensei's Divining Top in Legacy:

Maybe I'm missing the context of the article since I don't barn on SCGs articles but I can't take any piece of text which includes discussing banning Punishing Fire, Dark Depths or Loam from Legacy that seriously.

Ban the non-basic land with 80% usage. Every other card in the history of Legacy that even approached that level of ubiquity has already been banned. Actually very few ever have, Misstep got close. Mystical was getting there, and WotC wrote extensively about "The Gentleman's Agreement". Mystical would have had unparalleled ubiquity if people were playing as though their mothers were held hostage. Between Flash, Reanimator and ANT the card was absurd. They killed a secondary player in Flash, but Mystical lived on. A Flash deck that was primarily fueled by Brainstorm (as all degenerate 2 card derp combo is), and Mystical.



Brainstorm is Mystical but without the Gentleman's agreement. Even worse its ubiquity spans more than just combo. It's literally a 4 of in the best control deck, the best aggro control deck, and of course the best combo decks. We've gone through so many scapegoats at this point, maybe Dig will be the next one a card that doesn't approach Brainstorms usage, flexibility, or power level.



Swap out Mystical for Brainstorm. Same argument, only Brainstorm is even more busted since it's also in the best control and aggro decks.

The deck construction cost for Brainstorm and it's power level over the years just hasn't scaled well. Fetchlands were the first nail. Then the power level of the various 2 card chimp combos. Then enemy fetches. Then delve.

Top doesn't deserve to banned with respect to Brainstorm, it's played far less, it's far less powerful, easier to hate out, and it's far less versatile.
DTT doesn't deserve to banned with respect to Brainstorm, it's played far less, it's far less powerful, easier to hate out, and it's far less versatile.
<insert other shitty card> doesn't deserve to banned with respect to Brainstorm, it's played far less, it's far less powerful, and it's far less versatile.

Unban Earthcraft, Black Vise, Mind Twist, Goblin Recruiter and Survival, all of which aren't anywhere near Brainstorms level in terms of power, deck construction cost, and flexibility. Then let a year go by and see that Brainstorm still annihilates any of these cards in usage.

[Nielsie]

Another writer and (good) player - and a control freak who never met a control strategy he didn't like (Shaheen Soorani) - calling for the banning of the stupid, inane Sensei's Divining Top in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Solutions.html

I fully agree with this, and I'm glad one of the better players in this community had the nerve to put this out there. SDT is just such a poisonous card in this format that causes so many logistical problems, and its banning would be almost pure upside.

He is also calling for a ban on Punishing Fire, Dark Depths or Loam... Sure, why not kill the last surviving Tier 1 non-blue options?

[Crimhead]

I'm glad one of the better players in this community had the nerve to put this out there.

Just because somebody is a good player it does not necessarily follow that they are objective and free of bias.

Dude wants to kill off the only two creatureless (or virtually creatureless, depending on the build) control decks in the format! Not his cup of tea, I guess.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Just because somebody is a good player it does not necessarily follow that they are objective and free of bias.

Dude wants to kill off the only two creatureless (or virtually creatureless, depending on the build) control decks in the format! Not his cup of tea, I guess.

I'm guessing this guy REALLY likes to play Delver and/or just hates decks that don't have blue in them. Who in their right mind wants to ban Lands of all things?

[MGB]

What you guys are saying about Shaheen is really funny, because he's traditionally the biggest Control proponent in every format. He plays Ux control in every format it's legal in, and basically never plays non-Control decks. He's ALL about Control decks and he thinks SDT (a classic control card) is bad for the game.

[nedleeds]

Who gives a shit what he plays? Is that a ban criteria? Brainstorm is a better control card than top has ever been or ever will be.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Who gives a shit what he plays? Is that a ban criteria? Brainstorm is a better control card than top has ever been or ever will be.

Brainstorm is a better everything card than SDT has been or ever will be, unfortunately.

[nedleeds]

So why is anyone with a functioning brain bringing it up as a ban candidate?

[Mr Miagi]

They want to divert attention from BS to Top becasue Top was banned before.. as a player who enjoys Jund Nic-fit I find it disgusting

[MGB]

So why is anyone with a functioning brain bringing it up as a ban candidate?

Brainstorm doesn't drag tournaments out and single-handedly promote most of the slow play in the format. A resolved Brainstorm is a one-shot effect that happens quickly and cleanly.

Brainstorm's presence is definitely a huge aspect of Legacy but the effect of its absence would not necessarily be easy to predict.

The outcome that would result from banning SDT is easy to predict and almost entirely a net positive effect.

[Barook]

Just throwing this in here:

[Watersaw]

The outcome that would result from banning SDT is easy to predict and almost entirely a net positive effect.

The side effects of removing of one of the best and most notorious decks in the format are not in any way, shape, or form "easy to predict."

[Admiral_Arzar]

So why is anyone with a functioning brain bringing it up as a ban candidate?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've answered your own question here.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Flame away if this was already mentioned...

Isn't saying the meta is 75-80% blue disingenuous? I believe most people using that phrasing mean 'decks that use Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe'.

If you look at RUG Delver, 67% of the deck is . 4C Delver about 64%. And so on, and so forth.

So if we look at this recent SCG IQ, we'd have:

Death and Taxes - 0% blue cards
BUG Aluren - 47% blue cards
OmniTell - 85% blue cards
Sneak Attack - 56% blue cards
Reanimator - 41% blue cards
Grixis Pyromancer - 65% blue cards
Miracles - 68% blue cards
Patriot - 66% blue cards

Roughly (very roughly, I totaled percentages rather than cards for this figure) 54% of that top 8 is blue cards. Isn't it more appropriate to say the top 8 is 54% blue? On the other hand, if you are talking strictly about decks running efficient blue cantrips, then 88% of that top 8 is 'blue'.

[Crimhead]

it more appropriate to say the top 8 is 54% blue?

This would be much more descriptive than to say the meta is 70-80% "blue". To some of us it actually makes a big difference that the other colours have this representation.

You'll notice that the blue haters tend to want to make the meta around as warped and blue centric as they possibly can, even if that means a loss of accuracy and/or precision when describing the format. You're never going to win. Within a day or two your astute post will be long buiried and the blue haters will continue to repeat the same arguments.

[ESG]

Flame away if this was already mentioned...

Isn't saying the meta is 75-80% blue disingenuous? I believe most people using that phrasing mean 'decks that use Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe'.

If you look at RUG Delver, 67% of the deck is . 4C Delver about 64%. And so on, and so forth.

So if we look at this recent SCG IQ, we'd have:

Death and Taxes - 0% blue cards
BUG Aluren - 47% blue cards
OmniTell - 85% blue cards
Sneak Attack - 56% blue cards
Reanimator - 41% blue cards
Grixis Pyromancer - 65% blue cards
Miracles - 68% blue cards
Patriot - 66% blue cards

Roughly (very roughly, I totaled percentages rather than cards for this figure) 54% of that top 8 is blue cards. Isn't it more appropriate to say the top 8 is 54% blue? On the other hand, if you are talking strictly about decks running efficient blue cantrips, then 88% of that top 8 is 'blue'.

If the deck has enough blue cards to support Force of Will, it's generally considered a blue deck. Also, if 88% of that top 8 is blue, where's the point of "too blue"? Have we reached it yet? Is it 95%? Is it 92%? Is there one?