The future of Legacy?

[chris_acheson]

shizezz more biebers, that's kind of lame... i want old folks with old cards grumping and puffing away ... that's my ideal of legacy. but i have to admit that most players i know aren't capable of spending the $$$/€€€ on these cards. god bless google and friends for brining you guyz the mtg bieber influx

Who exactly do you mean by "biebers"? At first you seemed to be referring to younger Magic players that aren't willing/able to shell out the cash for Legacy. Now it's young people that have plenty of money? Do you just hate anyone under the age of 30? That would be a shame, because there's plenty of really cool Magic players in their teens and 20s. There's also a fair number of salty assholes in the 30+ crowd.

I want Legacy to be the default format that everyone plays. I've always wanted this. It has always been bizarre to me that weird formats with weird card pool restrictions are the default instead.

Death the the Reserved List. Long live Legacy.

[ESG]

I'm very tempted to agree as this is also my "gut-feeling".

However, I'd be interested in an objective indicator of Legacy's popularity to examine the validity of this stated "FACT". The best objective indicator I can come up with is price development of Legacy(/Vintage)-only cards. Unfortunately, I'm not in the mood to conduct such an analysis but if I had to guess, I'd say that on average prices have been rising by a significant margin in every year since the format's inception.

Lordofthepit basically already did this.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ted&highlight=

Again, these hand-wringing threads about the future of Legacy have come up before, and Legacy is fine.

Edit: That second link is broken. Stupid Salvation. Internal link to the discussion here still works. I'm sure Lordofthepit can repost his analysis from wherever else he stored it.

Edit 2: I also feel compelled to add that local scenes have a lot to do with the shop itself. Poorly run shops or shops in difficult-to-access areas are unlikely to find long-term support from players. There are several shops in the wider Seattle area that tried weekly or biweekly Legacy and dropped it within six months because they couldn't fire events. This had everything to do with them offering lousy prize support or not having judges or holding tournaments on bad days or at bad times. Good shops find support. If you're a bad shop, turn it around. The only people who are truly disadvantaged are the ones in really rural areas who don't have enough of a Magic population to build a scene on.

[Barook]

Why do people forget to mention that Seattle is also the main seat of WotC?

[DragoFireheart]

Negators always have the shrillest voices. The silent majority are playing, not posting, and basking in Legacy love. Lot of scenes, not just Seattle, growing or thriving. FACT

Why do people forget to mention that Seattle is also the main seat of WotC?

Because the negators always have the shrillest voices?

Anyways I have begun my move to Pauper magic. You can play 4 of Brainstorm, the average cost of a deck is $40-$50, and there's a nice variety of decks to play.

[Dice_Box]

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/members/...pit23/articles

[ESG]

Why do people forget to mention that Seattle is also the main seat of WotC?

Because that doesn't really matter? WOTC employees aren't padding our totals. It's not like we're some unique city where everything aligns. There are plenty of other areas where Legacy is growing or well-established with large, regular turnouts at events. We built a community, and other places could do it too. It takes motivation from a core group of players and a solid shop or two, but I really believe it can be replicated almost anywhere. I don't believe that the answer is to wait around for WOTC to throw us a bone.

[LOLWut]

And lots of scenes, rather than growing or thriving, are shrinking or dying out. FACT.

A message like the one you posted doesn't actually mean much of anything because it's a bunch of bluster without any real facts behind it (despite the "FACT"). Sure, some areas are thriving. Other areas are doing the opposite. You need to look at the big picture and see if the general trend is growth or decline.

Some local scenes are growing and some are shrinking; so damn incisively true.

It's difficult for me to maintain my stance that negative voices are the loudest, and that those voices are no evidence of decline, and poor representation of the Legacy player base, in light of that knowledge dropping.

It's not a proclamation of universal health; it's that the health of so many scenes would be impossible if the manner in which the scorched earthers spoke of Legacy were accurate. FACT

[Lord Seth]

Some local scenes are growing and some are shrinking; so damn incisively true.

It's difficult for me to maintain my stance that negative voices are the loudest, and that those voices are no evidence of decline, and poor representation of the Legacy player base, in light of that knowledge dropping.

It's not a proclamation of universal health; it's that the health of so many scenes would be impossible if the manner in which the scorched earthers spoke of Legacy were accurate. FACT

I don't think anyone is disputing that Legacy is growing or retaining popularity in <i>some</i> locations. But if those locations are the minority and in general it's losing popularity, that doesn't mean much.

I don't know how I'd go about evaluating the overall growth/decline in Legacy, but the overall is the important figure.

[DragoFireheart]

It takes motivation from a core group of players and a solid shop or two, but I really believe it can be replicated almost anywhere.

Tell that to the "kids" that may want to get into Legacy but sees the price tag.

Which would rather blow 2k on: pieces of cardboard or a piece of ass*?

(*Dates, money for car to drive around, other more meaningful stuff)

[jrsthethird]

Which would rather blow 2k on: pieces of cardboard or a piece of ass*?

(*Dates, money for car to drive around, other more meaningful stuff)

Cardboard holds its value and doesn't talk back.

[Dan Pyre]

Cardboard ... doesn't talk back.

What is having to mulligan, mana screw, or mana flood for 500, Alex?

[Lord Seth]

Tell that to the "kids" that may want to get into Legacy but sees the price tag.

Which would rather blow 2k on: pieces of cardboard or a piece of ass*?

(*Dates, money for car to drive around, other more meaningful stuff)

I think the bigger choice is between spending that money on a Legacy deck or spending half that amount on a Modern deck, which also gives more opportunities (in general) to be played.

[Stevestamopz]

I think the bigger choice is between spending that money on a Legacy deck or spending half that amount on a Modern deck, which also gives more opportunities (in general) to be played.

Modern events to be played in Melbourne weekly? Probably close to 5-6.
Legacy events to be played in Melbourne monthly (with 20-25 proxies allowed)? Maybe 1, sometimes 2.

To get into Legacy now, you just have to really really love a deck. I bought into Goblins 2-3 years ago ish, and I only got the 4th Port about December last year because even though the deck is a supreme piece of shit, I love playing it and really enjoyed learning to play it. There's no deck in Modern that plays even close to it, and there definitely isn't an essentially mono-red creature control/combo/aggro strategy that has 4x Port 4x Wasteland in it. If you want to play those cards (which I do) you have to get into Legacy. Now that I'm working as a lawyer it's pretty lulzy how "cheap" Goblins is, but when I was a broke uni student, dropping $120 aus on each Port was a huge amount of money.

The same applies to my mate; he got into Legacy because there is no "hard control deck" in Modern, whereas Miracles exists in Legacy.

When people really like playing a deck, they'll take ownership of it and if they start to love it they'll take pride in finding ways to buy the actual cards, logic and pricing be damned.
Would Bryant Cook have an extremely beautiful TES deck if he didn't love it as much as he does? Same goes for Jack Kitchen/KapnCook and Bahra with his super pimp Taxes deck and Julian with elves etc etc etc. This is why I'm really hoping WOTC open up Legacy by banning some of the ridiculous cards that have made most of the Tier 1 Legacy decks look identical. It's got nothing to do with a "hatred of blue" or whatever, I just love playing Legacy and would like to be able to have more people to play it with. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's very possible that I am, but opening up Legacy and having multiple different decks (e.g. non-cantrip/goodstuff decks) being viable options would be a good way to get fresh blood into Legacy.

P.s: The price on Foil Rishadan Ports

[sjmcc13]

I think the bigger choice is between spending that money on a Legacy deck or spending half that amount on a Modern deck, which also gives more opportunities (in general) to be played.

This. Though it is probably more like 1/3rd as much to build a modern deck, since most Legacy decks are in the $2000-$4000 range, with allot of the more desirable ones (Stoneblade, Miracles, RUG/BUG Delver, etc) being ~$3000+ while most modern decks are under $1000. and few are "much" higher then that.

I took some (The end of Lorwyn/Shadowmore up to the M13) away from magc, and had to sell a lot of my cards during my time as I was between jobs and needed some cash. When I got back in if I did not still have my sets of Seas (Only dual I did not get forced to sell for cash), Wastelands, Strands, Deltas and FoWs I might not have even looked at Legacy, and just gone straight to modern as like storm and merfolk decks, and still had everything pre-alara that merfolk could run and modern storm cost me like $200 at the time with most of that being a set of tarns. Buying back in to legacy was allot more expensive, and I still need Ports to be able to look at non-blue lists.

[lordofthepit]

Since the incomparable ESG requested that I do this, I went ahead and looked at my DCI history and plotted attendance numbers for all Card Kingdom Monday weeklies I've attended:



(Asterisks for two events in 2013 correspond to special one-time events on Memorial and Labor Day where prize support was increased.)

Seattle has always been a city with a lot of high tech jobs, but its Eternal Magic community wasn't big even a few years ago. Furthermore, the relative density of high-paying jobs for young computer science/engineering types that isn't a feature unique to the Emerald City. Its Legacy scene had to grow, nourished by an excellent store (Card Kingdom) and to a lesser extent by passionate community members. It's thriving and growing even without the SCG circuit, as the company has apparently decided that it is too cost-prohibitive to ever run an Open weekend in the state of Washington, having twice already moved previously scheduled events.

Unfortunately, this is probably the last graph I'll ever publish for Card Kingdom. Beginning next week, I will be unable to attend weeklies on a regular basis, perhaps ever, so I won't be able to access data from my DCI history. But I'm happy that the Legacy scene has more than quadrupled in size since I first started playing the Seattle area in 2009. I hope other communities experience the same growth.

[MechTactical]

Who exactly do you mean by "biebers"? At first you seemed to be referring to younger Magic players that aren't willing/able to shell out the cash for Legacy. Now it's young people that have plenty of money? Do you just hate anyone under the age of 30? That would be a shame, because there's plenty of really cool Magic players in their teens and 20s. There's also a fair number of salty assholes in the 30+ crowd.

I want Legacy to be the default format that everyone plays. I've always wanted this. It has always been bizarre to me that weird formats with weird card pool restrictions are the default instead.

Death the the Reserved List. Long live Legacy.

You basically nailed it. I hate everybody that's under 30 and looks like this:


Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

and thinks like this:

Tell that to the "kids" that may want to get into Legacy but sees the price tag.

Which would rather blow 2k on: pieces of cardboard or a piece of ass*?

(*Dates, money for car to drive around, other more meaningful stuff)

No but seriously i think that if a player makes a sacrifices (no matter his age) he will respect the format / game. If you have a fella with all the above and a pimp legacy deck and etc etc chances are high you’re dealing with an adolescent smart ass bieber type fella with no respect.

And I strongly believe that it wouldn’t be magical if the prices would drop for more than let’s say half (this is highly debatable). What do you want tropical islands for 10 bucks? Come on where’s the magic in that? what kind of commitment do you want from the player base anywayz? you’d get a Bieber yu-gi-oh type of scene. One has to make a serious commitment to respect the game/format. It’s the quality not quantity of the player base that’s important… At least for me because I don’t have the time to play often

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What do you want tropical islands for 10 bucks?

Sure, why not? It's just a piece of cardboard and if the prices would drop down to 10 bucks/dual, they'd be in the same price range where they were back when I started. I may even consider to rebuy into Eternal then.
Btw, I seriously doubt that there's any other hobby where people are happy that they may spend heaps of money on it. "Dude,this book/bike/bitch costs 10k bucks, I'm so fucking glad that I must have sold the kidney to finance my Friday Night's Reading/Biking/Screwing."

[chris_acheson]

You basically nailed it. I hate everybody that's under 30 and looks like this:


Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

and thinks like this:

Tell that to the "kids" that may want to get into Legacy but sees the price tag.

Which would rather blow 2k on: pieces of cardboard or a piece of ass*?

(*Dates, money for car to drive around, other more meaningful stuff)

Ah yes, the straw youths.

No but seriously i think that if a player makes a sacrifices (no matter his age) he will respect the format / game. If you have a fella with all the above and a pimp legacy deck and etc etc chances are high you’re dealing with an adolescent smart ass bieber type fella with no respect.

Like age and wealth, "sacrifices made" is an extremely poor indicator of the quality of a person.

And I strongly believe that it wouldn’t be magical if the prices would drop for more than let’s say half (this is highly debatable). What do you want tropical islands for 10 bucks?

$10 seems like an extremely reasonable price point for a reprinted dual land.

Come on where’s the magic in that? what kind of commitment do you want from the player base anywayz?

I'd like them to commit to taking some time out of their day to play Magic with me. If they're willing to commit to participate in a Legacy tournament once a week, even better!

you’d get a Bieber yu-gi-oh type of scene. One has to make a serious commitment to respect the game/format. It’s the quality not quantity of the player base that’s important… At least for me because I don’t have the time to play often

Given your criteria for "quality", maybe you'd be better off joining a yacht club or something?

[Dosferra]

For those of you that have growing Legacy scenes, what's your tournament structure like (time/cost/prize support)? Are there multiple stores in one area successfully running events? How far are people traveling? How do you advertise?

We play wednesdays 18:30-22:00, 4 round swiss, the cost is perhaps $3.5 and prizes are store credit.
The LGS does nothing, that I know of, to promote legacy, it’s fully community-driven.
The large uptick in players started after we made a facebook page and launched a league (sort of like SCG open points).
It’s just one LGS, for legacy anyway, sometimes people from nearby cities attend, when they do we are usually more than 40 people.
Other factors that might contribute, some(/many?) also play modern and promote legacy to those players and in Sweden even students and unemployed can save up for a legacy deck in a couple of months.
The largest factor is probably the friendly atmosphere and ease of borrowing cards/decks.

[MechTactical]

Sure, why not? It's just a piece of cardboard

just a piece of cardboard? no magical feelings?
i can agree that we're having first world problems right here, but i still think that a tropical island is more than a piece of cardboard otherwise i wouldn't play it in my deck...

Given your criteria for "quality", maybe you'd be better off joining a yacht club or something?

how did you know i am a member of a yacht club? no really, but it's not all that fancy believe me...