[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Manipulato]

I am also surprised Grixis Delver wasn't represented in some fashion in the DtB till now. However, isn't this the wrong thread for that deck? It seems like this thread it more for the full on 4C decks, which atm are basically BUG Delver with bolts and blasts. Not really a big deal, but it seems like it would be good for Grixis Delver to have its own thread.

Yeah I have the same opinion...The bUrg Thread always was the 4c greedy Delver thread like the european lists with bolt, Goyf, DS, AD etc all in the MD...

I see Noah´s list as a Grixis deck with a tiny g splash in the sb...I dont like mixing those decks in one thread at all!

[jrsthethird]

Tcdecks counts Grixis Delver as Grixis Pyromancer, which is the only reason "Thieves" is in DTB (it doesn't have near the kind of paper representation needed to be a DTB). Don't try to talk about Grixis Delver in the Thieves thread though, you will be shunned.

Yeah, the Grixis decks that run Pyromancer are all grouped together, whether they are control or tempo. It's also possible that Grixis Delver decks with DRS can get grouped in with this one (bUrg/"4-color") if there is more incidental green splashing; Grudge or Decay is a start. Or, a Grixis Delver deck that eschews Pyromancer but keeps DRS with a Trop would be bUrg. Probably wouldn't Top 8, but this is what it would likely be categorized as.

Oh, and "Thieves" isn't even a thing anymore. Dack Fayden and Notion Thief are antiquated; the new tech is Pyromancer Ascension. But for more on that, go to the actual thread. There's a Grixis Tempo thread in the Established section for discussion.

[AfroSmile]

Yeah I have the same opinion...The bUrg Thread always was the 4c greedy Delver thread like the european lists with bolt, Goyf, DS, AD etc all in the MD...

I see Noah´s list as a Grixis deck with a tiny g splash in the sb...I dont like mixing those decks in one thread at all!

I have the same opinion too! They are not the same deck because we play a lot of important matchup with another approach because of main deck decay (and Tarmogoyf).
The Grixis Delver like Noah's decklist are posted here and I think it must be in the DTB section too!

Actually I becoming really mad because people are confusing bUrg Delver and Grixis Tempo/Grixis Green (see this unknown old thread).

Grixis Green is not bUrg Delver because they don't play a lot of green spell! It's just a splash for Deathrite Shaman activation and sometimes for some sideboard cards. That's the point.
bUrg Delver really commit on green with Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Sylvan library, etc.
In addition, if you look the sideboard of bUrg Delver, the green color is really present (Golgari Charm, Maelstrom Pulse, Sylvan Library, Life from the loam, etc.)
And we can see a lot of incidence on the mana base! And tropical island is one of the most important color in the deck because every thread can be cast with it!

That's not the case with Grixis Green. Grixis Green see Tropical Island like an Island and it plays sometimes (or more often actually) some green spells in their sideboard like Abrupt Decay and Ancient Grudge and that's all! This difference brings so many differences in some matchup that we cannot consider them as the same deck.

If you want to speak about Grixis Delver =>
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...5-Grixis-Tempo
Old thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=grixis+green

If you want to speak about Grixis Control =>
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Thieves/page12

If you want to speak about bUrg Delver, the true 4c Delver =>
You are in the good place!

I explain the differences between the different popular delver deck on a french forum, maybe I'll do the work here later in the week.

P.S.: Sorry for the bad english. :-/

[Delvis]

+1 AfroSmile's post.

Also, taking into account that bUrg Delver and Grixis Green Delver are two discrete entities, the Grixis Green list is the DTB because that's the one making all the Top 8s and being played everywhere (I could have put on a blindfold and randomly pointed at a table at the Eternal Weekend Duel for Duals, and there would be a Grixis Delver player either at that table or next to it).

I'm not saying Grixis Green is necessarily the superior list (although I am playing it), but it is the list being played the most, and therefore the list people should be prepared to beat at any given event.

[ironclad8690]

I would not have created the new thread if I had known about the Grixis Green thread, so sorry for that! Partly my fault. I just saw that people were using the New and Developmental thread for all communication about Grixis Delver, so I thought I would try creating a primer in the Established section because it was putting up the results after Noah's consecutive victories.

Does anyone know how to talk to a mod about closing threads/updating the names? I'm sure that we can have a great extensive primer on the deck once we get these similar threads cleaned up.

[AfroSmile]

I would not have created the new thread if I had known about the Grixis Green thread, so sorry for that! Partly my fault. I just saw that people were using the New and Developmental thread for all communication about Grixis Delver, so I thought I would try creating a primer in the Established section because it was putting up the results after Noah's consecutive victories.

Does anyone know how to talk to a mod about closing threads/updating the names? I'm sure that we can have a great extensive primer on the deck once we get these similar threads cleaned up.

I think it's fine because the thread didn't have some activity and actually there is a third thread about grixis delver:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...936#post901936
The other two:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...5-Grixis-Tempo
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...(Grixis-Green)
It would be nice to merge all information of all this threads because each one brings some complement to the others.

Now stop talking about Grixis Green Delver or Grixis Delver. Here, we talk about the best tempo deck: bUrg Delver!

[AfroSmile]

I play this list actually.

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

-- Sideboard --
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ventilions Clique
1 Nihil's Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle

I have a +50 tournament where the meta contains a wide variety of deck and there is no major deck type. So I have to be really versatile with the main deck and sideboard choice.
There is some good Jund/Junk players and I really fear this matchup (with the Shardless BUG or other midrange deck). Do you have any good advices, strategies and sideboard plan for the Jund matchup? Junk/Aggro Loam matchup?

I think we must go full tempo because we loose the late game against decks that play lot 2-1 cards like Liliana, Hymn, Punishing Fire and so on.
Against Jund, I side something like:
+1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Submerge, +1 Surgical Extraction (for Punishing), +1 Pithing Needle (for Liliana or Scavenging Ooze)
On the play: -3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
On the draw: -2 Force of Will, -2 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
Is it fine? Do I have to enter Clique to have a better creature density?

What is our plan against Lands and sideboard plan?
Do I have to go with the 2 Tarmogoyf + 2 True-name Nemesis split?

I think I might be ok with my actual sideboard plan and game plan, but I want to know if anybody have some suggestions, good ideas or plans to improve my way to play these match-ups.

[Manipulato]

I play this list actually.


I have a +50 tournament where the meta contains a wide variety of deck and there is no major deck type. So I have to be really versatile with the main deck and sideboard choice.
There is some good Jund/Junk players and I really fear this matchup (with the Shardless BUG or other midrange deck). Do you have any good advices, strategies and sideboard plan for the Jund matchup? Junk/Aggro Loam matchup?

I think we must go full tempo because we loose the late game against decks that play lot 2-1 cards like Liliana, Hymn, Punishing Fire and so on.
Against Jund, I side something like:
+1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Submerge, +1 Surgical Extraction (for Punishing), +1 Pithing Needle (for Liliana or Scavenging Ooze)
On the draw: -3 Force of Will, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
On the play: -2 Force of Will, -2 Daze, -1 Spell Pierce
Is it fine? Do I have to enter Clique to have a better creature density?

What is our plan against Lands and sideboard plan?
Do I have to go with the 2 Tarmogoyf + 2 True-name Nemesis split?

I think I might be ok with my actual sideboard plan and game plan, but I want to know if anybody have some suggestions, good ideas or plans to improve my way to play these match-ups.

Hi,
I personally side out all 4 FoW no matter if I´m otp or otd against BGx decks like Jund/Junk because the game will go longer and it´s just a material war. They 2 for 1 you with Hymn, Bloodbraid Elf, Lili etc. and the FoW makes the cardadvantage even worse for you, 2-for-1ing ourselves is not the way to go. You dont have to be that scared with this type of delver because 3 DTT & Library are just great tools for the longer game...
You can FoW a removal spell for 1 turn and get 1 attack step but Jund/Junk is so full of removal spells and then they kill it next turn so that you only buy maybe 1 turn which is a tempo play but not good enough to win this type of game in my opinion.
I´m also not a huge fan of pierce in this MU, sure its good at countering discard, Lili, Pulse etc. but most of the time we´re taped out...T1 we have 12 plays (DS, Delver, Ponder) and T2 Goyf/AD/Library or a combination of cantrip+removal/creature...

So I would board like this:
- 4 FoW
- 3 Pierce (maybe otd -1/2 Daze instad of the Pierce...)

+ 1 Forked Bolt (Kills Bob, DS & Lili)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fire, maybe Wasteland etc...)
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse (Allround Removal for Goyf, Lili, Library...)
+ 2 Submerge (0 mana removal + gain tempo, steal them a draw step)
+ 1 Pithing Needle (Lili, SOoze)
+ 1 Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique (Charm is good against Library, killing Bob, "Counter" a removal Spell/ Clique can kill Lili, just another thread)

I´m also not sure about your manabase though...7 fetches and the badland? mh...I personally play 1 Taiga over the Badland and -1 Wasteland -1 Tropical for a the 8th + 9th fetch...You play more g spells than b MD...
The Badland is reasonable in a list with MD Thoughtseize or in the TNN/TS list from Goddik even if I would not play any nonblue dual in a 3 TNN 3 DTT list.

[AfroSmile]

Hi,
I personally side out all 4 FoW no matter if I´m otp or otd against BGx decks like Jund/Junk because the game will go longer and it´s just a material war. They 2 for 1 you with Hymn, Bloodbraid Elf, Lili etc. and the FoW makes the cardadvantage even worse for you, 2-for-1ing ourselves is not the way to go. You dont have to be that scared with this type of delver because 3 DTT & Library are just great tools for the longer game...
You can FoW a removal spell for 1 turn and get 1 attack step but Jund/Junk is so full of removal spells and then they kill it next turn so that you only buy maybe 1 turn which is a tempo play but not good enough to win this type of game in my opinion.
I´m also not a huge fan of pierce in this MU, sure its good at countering discard, Lili, Pulse etc. but most of the time we´re taped out...T1 we have 12 plays (DS, Delver, Ponder) and T2 Goyf/AD/Library or a combination of cantrip+removal/creature...

So I would board like this:
- 4 FoW
- 3 Pierce (maybe otd -1/2 Daze instad of the Pierce...)

+ 1 Forked Bolt (Kills Bob, DS & Lili)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fire, maybe Wasteland etc...)
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse (Allround Removal for Goyf, Lili, Library...)
+ 2 Submerge (0 mana removal + gain tempo, steal them a draw step)
+ 1 Pithing Needle (Lili, SOoze)
+ 1 Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique (Charm is good against Library, killing Bob, "Counter" a removal Spell/ Clique can kill Lili, just another thread)

I´m also not sure about your manabase though...7 fetches and the badland? mh...I personally play 1 Taiga over the Badland and -1 Wasteland -1 Tropical for a the 8th + 9th fetch...You play more g spells than b MD...
The Badland is reasonable in a list with MD Thoughtseize or in the TNN/TS list from Goddik even if I would not play any nonblue dual in a 3 TNN 3 DTT list.

First of all, thank you for sharing your opinion. I want to discuss some point because it's really interesting.

First, I dislike side out all my FoW against them. While it's true that 2-for-1 ourselves is really bad, it can stop some key spell like Liliana that 2-for-1 us anyway. I prefer to FoW a Liliana than loose a creature and decay/bolt her. (I think Bolt/Decay have better target like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf)
In addition, you can hardcast FoW or pitch an useless daze or spell pierce in late game. For this reasons I think keeping 1 is ok.
It's the same for Spell Pierce. In a lot of situation, I prefer to have Spell Pierce over Daze. In early game, you don't have any tempo loss with pierce and you can counter or delay some key spell like Liliana, Toxic Deluge, Sylvan Library/Top, Choke, etc. For this reasons, I keep 2 Spell Pierce.
Daze is free and counter creatures too, but a good player will play around it with ease and it becomes useless in late game. In early game, you can loose tempo if played too early. So I think it's important to have both Spell Pierce and Daze post-side.

I must thank you for the Forked Bolt tips! It's true that it can kill: Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, Scavenging Ooze and in some situation you can get Goyf or Tasigur. :-)
For Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique, I prefer Clique because we may need more creatures post sides because they have more anti-creatures cards too.

Then I think my manabase is fine. The badlands is really great in a lot of situation and it's really hard to cut me a color because I have 3 sources of each color except of blue which are 6. It may be a problem if I want to do an early Dig because I don't play a lot of fetches but it's often Ok. If I would change something in the mana base, it would be -1 Wasteland +1 Scalding Tarn.
For Taiga vs Badlands, I played for a long time Taiga, then I tried Badlands and I actually prefer it over Taiga. Generally, you go for Tropical Island first with this mana base and then go for what you need. In my experience, it's really fine and you avoid some situation in late game where you don't have any tropical or red/black source in the deck because of wasteland.

Finally, thank you for sharing! It's really helpful to oppose ideas and strategy so we can try and develop new strategy, play and sideboard guide.

Next! :D
Do you have any advice for other midrange deck like Junk and Shardless BUG? And for the Lands and Storm match-up?

[Manipulato]

First of all, thank you for sharing your opinion. I want to discuss some point because it's really interesting.

First, I dislike side out all my FoW against them. While it's true that 2-for-1 ourselves is really bad, it can stop some key spell like Liliana that 2-for-1 us anyway. I prefer to FoW a Liliana than loose a creature and decay/bolt her. (I think Bolt/Decay have better target like Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf)
In addition, you can hardcast FoW or pitch an useless daze or spell pierce in late game. For this reasons I think keeping 1 is ok.
It's the same for Spell Pierce. In a lot of situation, I prefer to have Spell Pierce over Daze. In early game, you don't have any tempo loss with pierce and you can counter or delay some key spell like Liliana, Toxic Deluge, Sylvan Library/Top, Choke, etc. For this reasons, I keep 2 Spell Pierce.
Daze is free and counter creatures too, but a good player will play around it with ease and it becomes useless in late game. In early game, you can loose tempo if played too early. So I think it's important to have both Spell Pierce and Daze post-side.

I must thank you for the Forked Bolt tips! It's true that it can kill: Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, Scavenging Ooze and in some situation you can get Goyf or Tasigur. :-)
For Golgari Charm/Vendilion Clique, I prefer Clique because we may need more creatures post sides because they have more anti-creatures cards too.

Then I think my manabase is fine. The badlands is really great in a lot of situation and it's really hard to cut me a color because I have 3 sources of each color except of blue which are 6. It may be a problem if I want to do an early Dig because I don't play a lot of fetches but it's often Ok. If I would change something in the mana base, it would be -1 Wasteland +1 Scalding Tarn.
For Taiga vs Badlands, I played for a long time Taiga, then I tried Badlands and I actually prefer it over Taiga. Generally, you go for Tropical Island first with this mana base and then go for what you need. In my experience, it's really fine and you avoid some situation in late game where you don't have any tropical or red/black source in the deck because of wasteland.

Finally, thank you for sharing! It's really helpful to oppose ideas and strategy so we can try and develop new strategy, play and sideboard guide.

Next! :D
Do you have any advice for other midrange deck like Junk and Shardless BUG? And for the Lands and Storm match-up?

Pierce is not a must-cut-card after G1 for sure, there are arguements for leaving pierce in, no question. It depends on the amount of cards you can bring in G2/G3 and Otd Otp...You can cut 1/2 Daze Otd too but even Otd I would leave in minimum 2 because they´re still a 0 mana counter and good in the first three turn or so, especially with Wasteland + alot of opponents will not play around it esecially Otd because they think you boarded it out, so it has a suprise effect too.

I played alot against BGx decks in the last 2 years and the -4 FoW tactic was very good till now, I mean its very unlikely that you still have FoW in hand when they attack you with Thoughtseize, Inquisition & Hymn in the early turns...But ok it was just an personal adivce...

I would really cut the 4th Wasteland or 1 Tropical for +1 fetch, we play 4 DS, 4 Goyf, 3DTT, so we´re really GY based deck and 4c is still sometimes unconsistent, casting your spells is the way to victory and I never missed the 4th Wasteland that much to be honest.

I treat Shardless BUG & Junk the same way like Jund, they´re all BGx decks, execpt that I would not bring in Surgicals because they have no Punishing Fire...
Forked Bolt will not kill Ooze, thats quite unrealistic but its good against DS, Bob, Bloodbraid, eventually Rabblemaster & Lili, so good enough...


Burn is obvious bad against lands, so you can cut 4 bolts, AD is not the best card but it can destroy Mox Diamond or an early Manabond, Exploration...Bring in everything which can handle Loam, Punishing Fire, lands in general and they´re Stage/DD Combo...Needle, Surgical, Spellbomb anything which makes something better than a MD card would...FoW has to be in because you can shut down those explosive starts with manabond/Exploration, Pierce is also not useless because of that fact, sometimes you can pierce even a loam and let them stumble for 1 turn...

Against Storm I would bring in all Pyroblasts, Surgicals, Spellbombs, TS, FLusterstorms, Null Rods which you have. AD can get the axe for sure, I would probably leave in 2 bolts or cut all 4 bolts but bring in 2 Golgari Charm because of YP SB tech/Goblin token/Xantid Swarm...

Greetings

[Manipulato]

Hel guys,
went 4:1 today at my locals with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time

1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

Round 1: Mentor Miracles -> Won 2:0

Round 2: BW Deadguy -> Lost 0:2

Round 3: Esper Deathblade -> Won 2:1

Round 4: Burn -> Won 2:1

Round 5: ANT -> Won 2:1

The manabase today was solid and the 4th Wasteland was good at screwing my opponent. I'm still not sure about the 3rd Tropical over the 1off Taiga or 9th fetch though.

The 3rd AD & the additional Needle were planed for the Miracles MU and were amazing against them.

Library won the match against Deathblade on its own, totaly worth it MD.

Currently I play Surgical over Spellbomb because I want to shut off Loam & P. Fire completly (Lands & Aggro Loam).

[CantDecide]

Hey guys, I'm playing this as my side-deck (specifically the lesser splash of green for drs and sb options, list here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bugr-delver-2/) and was wondering if their was any funky sb options versus miracles and delver decks which help versus these that they may not be expecting (something like "jeleva, scourge of nephalia" which i used in grixis pyromancer)

[Manipulato]

Hey guys, I'm playing this as my side-deck (specifically the lesser splash of green for drs and sb options, list here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bugr-delver-2/) and was wondering if their was any funky sb options versus miracles and delver decks which help versus these that they may not be expecting (something like "jeleva, scourge of nephalia" which i used in grixis pyromancer)

I think this is your thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...is-Tempo/page4

[CantDecide]

I think this is your thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...is-Tempo/page4

I disagree, the difference between the decks on here and mine is I lack goyf, compared to those decks that have a trop just for drs.

[ironclad8690]

I disagree, the difference between the decks on here and mine is I lack goyf, compared to those decks that have a trop just for drs.

The BURG delver thread (this one) is for 4 color versions that play Goyf and Abrupt Decay maindeck. The Grixis Tempo thread is for decks with Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe, and a green splash for DRS.

[CantDecide]

The BURG delver thread (this one) is for 4 color versions that play Goyf and Abrupt Decay maindeck. The Grixis Tempo thread is for decks with Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe, and a green splash for DRS.

Well my question is quite irrelevant to the amount of green in my deck, so could i still get an answer?

[ironclad8690]

Well my question is quite irrelevant to the amount of green in my deck, so could i still get an answer?

Winter Orb and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are pretty fringe and do a number on Miracles.

Miracles and Delver only really overlap in that they are both blue and both feature countermagic, so you can try to add more Abrupt Decays, Pyroblasts, and Vendilion Clique, but I don't know if there is anything super off the way that I would recommend against both.

Hope that helps!

Played in a DE today:

Sylvan Plug: 0-2

MUD Post: 2-0

Reanimator: 2-0


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dig Through Time
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Life from the Loam
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge


Sylvan Plug Choked me 2 times game 1, and I just basically ran out of Abrupt Decays between that and Knight. Game 2 was a bit grindier, but I will say he was a bit lucky by naturally drawing his 1 of Maze of Iths both games very early while I was not able to find wastelands.

MUD post I got lucky and drew my bolts when I needed them against his metalworkers and countered the kudoltha forgemaster he tried to play. Wastelands kept him low on mana game 1. He never played a Chalice.

Reanimator guy just basically got mana screwed both games and I got active DRS turn 1 both games, so it was tough for him.

[CantDecide]

Winter Orb and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are pretty fringe and do a number on Miracles.

Miracles and Delver only really overlap in that they are both blue and both feature countermagic, so you can try to add more Abrupt Decays, Pyroblasts, and Vendilion Clique, but I don't know if there is anything super off the way that I would recommend against both.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, those sound awesome, but out of curiosity, what those ashiok do versus miracles? They have a very low creature count etc.

[jim111589]

Thanks, those sound awesome, but out of curiosity, what those ashiok do versus miracles? They have a very low creature count etc.

It's ment to mess up thier top activations by consistently changing (removing) thier top 3. It can also serve as a win con if you can manage to remove/deal with thier mentor/jace/Eta and just mill them.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[CantDecide]

It's ment to mess up thier top activations by consistently changing (removing) thier top 3. It can also serve as a win con if you can manage to remove/deal with thier mentor/jace/Eta and just mill them.

Oh my, dont know how i missed that :P thank you