Also, I don't think your list is bad at all. I'd say:
-1 Mox Diamond (25 lands can't really support 4 Moxen IMO)
-3 Grim Monolith (you really are not trying to ramp into a quick threat anyways)
+4 Metalworker (dump your hand)
If you want to include Winter Orb, you can do something like:
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Crucible of Worlds
But if you are going with the Winter Orb route, I'd further change your mana base:
-X City of Traitors
-1 Vesuva
+1 Wasteland
+X Ghost Town
I think that's all the change you need to make to be honest. It is a nice unique mix between Forgemaster MUD and Stax-less Stax. I think Forgemaster actually helps you to find the right solution to the problem you may be facing. I think Wurmcoil Engine is probably the weakest tutor target though. You may want Platinum Emperion instead.
Hi (nameless one), nice to hear from you again. Last time I played your page 68 list, I got to top 8 with it. At that time, the harsh match ups with your list were Elves (which still is in any MUD list), Combo lands (list not having solutions) and burn. I was winning with a very high percentage against BUG, and RUG. Aside from what L10 mentioned (Miracles and Omni-Tell being faster and Tier 1), RUG is pushed out of DtB, and DnT is in and out of DtB. Grixis is the top Delver deck, which I think your page 68 list can handle. Sneak and Show is almost non existent due to Omni-Tell just being the better version of it. I have not played that list for a while but I always think of it.
Yeah, I think his list is pretty decent in the current meta to be honest. Whenever I think of Stax, I think of the actual card Smokestack, which is bad in the current meta, IMO, due to inconsistencies. The fact that Mentor and Pyromancer can generate tokens means the trade is not always in our favor, which is why I play The Abyss and Tabernacle in my list. But overloading on resistors like what the (nameless one) has is pretty good.
Honesty, I'd just replace one Mox Diamond and the three Grim Monolith for a full set of Metalworker, as well as trading one Wurmcoil Engine for Platinum Emperion and call it a day. Platinum Emperion actually solves the issue of when Delver gets under our radar and helps against the Burn match up quite a bit.
Thanks for your input.Originally Posted by Stuart
I think the streamer said the 1 Karn in the mainboard was supposed to be a 3rd Ugin lol. But i can cut it for a Lighting Greaves, i love the card.
Problem is i only have 2 Wastelands at the moment so that's awkward, and i think im missing 1 vesuva now that im thinking about it if im gonna run the full set of 12 posts lands. Maybe i can have like 2 Wastelands and 2 Darksteel Citadel / Mishra's Factory ? I think 4 Vesuvas is too many lands that enters tapped.
I can put a Crucible in the sideboard, can help against wasteland decks.
I've been playing colorless for years now but i haven't been able to play MUD yet because of budget reasons.
How many of each lands do you own?
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Cloudpost
Glimmerpost
Vesuva
Wasteland
Cavern of Souls
Darksteel Citadel
Mishra's Factory
Went to Pat's Games for weekly legacy last night. List was basically the same, but with slight sideboard tweaks:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Contagion Engine
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Crucible
3 Tsabo's Web
Round I: Burn 0-2
- Game 1: I mull to 4, don't hit a Chalice or Trinisphere, and can't catch up.
- Game 2: Things go OK, but then Price domes me for 10 and I die.
Round 2: RUG 1-2
- Game 1: For some inexplicable reason I keep an opening hand with 3 Caverns as my manabase. He gets 2 Delvers and flips them, and that's that.
- Game 2: Grindy, Wastelandy match. Lodestone and Delver end up racing, and I win the race.
- Game 3: 2 Ancient Tomb vs 2 Mongoose does me in.
Round 3: Burn 2-1
- Game 1: Turn 1 Chalice on 1 shuts off his entire hand, so he scoops.
- Game 2: He plays through my Trinisphere. Smash to Smithereens and Price do the work.
- Game 3: Chalice on 1 and 2 slows things up. However, I don't draw threats for a while and he gets down 2 Sulfuric Vortex. Eventually a Lodestone shows up and wins.
Round 4: Maverick 1-2
- Game 1: It's a race between Lodestone and a KotR . . . which is a 10/10. He wins that race.
- Game 2: He's got a Thalia, Reclamation Sage, and 2 Deathrites. Contagion Engine clears them out, followed by a Sundering Titan to nuke his lands and an Ugin for the scoop.
- Game 3: Things are going fine, then he played Gaddock Teeg. I am the biggest moron in Magic and think that Teeg shuts off all cards CMC 4+, so I don't play the Lodestone, Forgemaster, and Platinum in my hand and let him kill me with Teeg and Thalia.
Sooooo not a great night, but I guess it's good to experience the rougher side of playing MUD. Maybe up till now I've just been lucky with drawing the right lands + Chalice/Trinisphere, or maybe tonight I was just abnormally unlucky. That Teeg misplay, though . . .
Sucks that i have those cards back home but i think its like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2-3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2-4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Mishra's Factory
@Stuart: Game 1 vs burn, you don't have to depend on Chalice/Trinisphere. A fast combo hand wins it unless they double bolt your Forgemaster before you can use it, and that's rare and in your favor.
About Gaddock Teeg, I made the same mistake before.
Good luck on your next runs.
During the time i started assembling MUD i faced off against a Goblin deck that ran 4 Cavern of Souls and my Chalices didn't do much against him. Do you board out the chalices? I mean they will sometime have to open a turn 1 with Vial or Lackey.@Stuart: Game 1 vs burn, you don't have to depend on Chalice/Trinisphere. A fast combo hand wins it unless they double bolt your Forgemaster before you can use it, and that's rare and in your favor.
About Gaddock Teeg, I made the same mistake before.
Good luck on your next runs.
From my past experiences against Goblins, you board out Chalice+Sphere for more threats. Ratchet Bomb doesnt really help as their casting costs varies. Quick Wurmcoil is the way to go.
@L10:
The thing I don't like about Metalworker is it's not fast enough. I want to consistently hit that turn 1 Chalice at one or Sphere. While I already have the Sol lands, Mox Diamond also help when you don't draw them. I would rather just mulligan for Chalice/Sphere than mulligan for Chalice/Sphere AND Sol land.
As for Wurmcoil, my reason behind it is its easier to cast and your opponent can't profitably remove it as it will leave behind something. That said, StP and Terminus doesn't apply so I might switch it to Emperion.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@Runninonwater, assuming the worst case
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Traitors
1 Mishra's Factory
This mana base is actually very playable. I'd try my best get a second City of Traitors if I were you and you'd be set for a while. Your first few turns would be slow but your mid-late game mana base should be stable. If your meta has more mid range decks, you can get away with only playing two City of Traitors. If your meta is full of tempo and combo decks, having a full set of City of Traitors may help. As far as I am concerned, using Wasteland, Darksteel Citadel, Cavern of Souls, and Mishra's Factory is a matter of preference and play style. You should cater your mana base to your needs.
Darksteel Citadel is a great land, and it's utility is usually undervalued. It goes well with both Metalworker and Forgemaster, and it can't be destroyed by conventional means.** It is also good against decks that wants to Wasteland lock you out. Sure, they can destroy all your other lands, but it makes all our top deck lands live draws. Good in a meta full of Wastelands.
Mishra's Factory is great because sometimes you are hellbent and need action. It can beat down Miracles after a Terminus. It can block Goblin Guide. Can block most creatures in DnT, including Thalia. It can also be fed to Forgemaster. Good in meta full of mid-range and control decks, where games go long and resources are exchanged.
Wasteland can sometimes lock someone out early if you do it carefully with precision. It can also act as prison with Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere out. Most of the time though, it gets rid of the pesky utility and man lands that we can't really interact with. If you want to play Crucible of Worlds as a singleton, I recommend at least three copies of Wasteland. Good in meta full of Lands decks, mid-range decks, tempo decks, and infect.
Cavern of Souls is good against blue. I guess that goes without saying.
**Painter's can still REB it under Blood Moon+Painters due to the fact that "indestructible" is a keyword. Indestructible use to be just a matter of fact, but no more. Like, Humility would use to make Blightsteel a 1/1 indestructible creature. Now, it's just a vanilla 1/1. :(
@(nameless one)
That's fair. The thing is, I don't really like Grim Monlith in your list. It doesn't bode well Tangle Wire for one and it really doesn't help you ramp out a 6CMC beater by Turn 2. From your experience, has this ever been an issue? If you don't want Metalworker, the closest thing for us to Shops in Legacy, I'd rather have more lands to support Mox Diamond. I'd probably go for something closer to this:
Mana (32)
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
2 Ghost Town
Beats (14)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Lock (14)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
Or maybe I am completely off base. I don't know.
if you are running masticores you could also run coercive portal to support the upkeep cost a bit better.
@L10:
If you can generate 4 mana, while Tangle Wire is on stack, tap for 4, let Tangle Wire trigger resolve, then untap Monolith to cast something for 3 to 5. Trick works well with the Stax list.
(nameless one)'s list has plentiful of lands at 25, and does get clumpy late game sometimes. Having more lands doesn't really solve the problem, its just deck inconsistencies that MUD suffers not having library fixing.
You know what, that interaction honestly flew over my head. I am sure I would have done it if I were to play the deck, as it is pretty obvious. Then again, I never actually played Grim Monolith with Tangle Wires before. I guess that inexperience is glaring. Thanks!
Grim Monolith should stay in then. I can actually see his point now regarding to Metalworker in his build. I still think Platinum Emperion may work better than a singleton Wurmcoil Engine, even if it is harder to cast. That's probably the only change I will make.
What do you guys feel is the best anti-delver and 'fair' matchup list for MUD?
What cards specifically are so crucial vs them?
I keep testing and tweaking, but I have never been satisfied with the level of success against tempo delver strategies (esp any wasteland strats). Ive seen too many a game lost from their turn 1 delver t2 flip -> disrupt me till I die.
Are there any low cc artifacts to stay colorless that work especially well vs Delver?
The ones that I think of are:
mortarpod / contagion clasp (only works turn 1)
ratchet bomb / powder keg
ensnaring bridge
and everything else seems to cost 3+ mana or just be too situational or horrible to warrant playing.
Perhaps 100% colorless isnt the way to go if your meta is delver + fair decks. Is it time for maindeck whipflare? XD
For delvers, Ratchet Bomb on the side, and Cavern of Souls + anything big.
Having Mishra's Factory and Kuldotha Forgemaster kinda helps with the consistency. I am also looking forward with the new mulligan rule.
Monolith is one of the weakest cards in the deck but the acceleration is really needed to apply early pressure with resistors. I might even go replace all Forgemaster targets with Steel Hellkite since it can sweep up anything that goes through the resistors.
Definitely an early Ratchet Bomb. I find with my list, it's a coin toss. If I go first, I get to apply early pressure with Chalice/Sphere then Tangle Wire/Lodestone Golem cleans up. If they go first with a turn one Delver, they will ride that to victory. Your saving grace is Wurmcoil via Cavern protected by Resistors.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Yeah, in my Stax list, I have nothing but utility lands to help with consistency. I am almost tempted to replace the Hangarback Walkers with Ravager to eat up redundant lock pieces and Smokestack at my opponent's end step. None of my cards has a casting cost of more than 4, except for the Razormane Masticore in the side, which helps. This way, I don't necessarily need ramp in the form of Grim Monolith or Metalworker. I don't even have City of Traitors because I feel that it two steps forward, two steps back. The boost helps to get out a quick lock piece but it sometimes hurts a strategy as proactive as Stax. I can't just pump out a big dude and ride it to victory.
@Delver
We can use 93/94 all star tech, Island of Wak-Wak. But on a serious note, Ratchet Bomb is our best solution. But it can also be a greatly hinder our plan if we destroy our own Chalice, because it makes all their cards active. For a while, I was playing with 2 Urborg in my main as a way to relieve pain from Ancient Tomb in the mid to late game, and also have 2 Maze of Ith on my side. Maze of Ith is the closest thing to a StP in our deck and it combos well with Urborg to tap for mana. I also have Tabernacle as a pseudo Wrath of God against Pyro and Mentor. Ratchet Bomb is by far the best, most versatile sideboard option though.
@L10:
Assuming games two and three after siding in:
If we have a first turn Chalice on play, you won't be blowing up the Bomb for 0 because Delver will be countered.
If there is a first turn Delver when they're on play (meaning you just won), chances are you are playing catch up and playing a Chalice may actually be detrimental for you there, you should be accelerating instead or blowing up a Bomb.
Let's go back to game one Delver scenario, then you won't have the Bomb at all...
Just going to copy and paste what I PM to (nameless one). He is on a similar page. More tonight. At work right now.
Dude, what is your opinion on Black Vise as a win con in pure Stax control. One of the things about running Winter Orb is that it makes man lands weaker, and our own resistors prevents us from casting Lodestone Golem to maintain lock. Black Vise is perfect for when we hardback the opponent and is cheap enough to cast before we apply pressure. And it wins quick in multiples. I am work right now but I can write my thoughts out better later if you are interested. I have been wanting this card unban for literally years.
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