Against a deck like Infect, you either try and lock them out with a cheap card like Peacekeeper, or you just overload on removal. There's not any other options. Ross, and any good infect player, basically attempts to enforce a chokepoint on your removal spells in that matchup.
Mentor maindeck isn't liable to last in my opinion. Dig was broken, so diluting the deck with a card that had nothing to do with it made sense. Mentor is just a random card that randomly wins games; it's somewhat ironic to see it exploited in a version that doubled down on consistently activating the miracles and copies of Counterbalance in the deck. I suppose the biggest issue with the Ponder lists was the weakened combo matchup form no maindeck Clique; Mentor probably helps that.
Pithin Needle and Izzet Statiscaster are great in the Infect matchup.
Cavern of Souls + Izzet Statiscaster is basically game over against Infect (if you are still alive on Turn 3 of course ^^;).
One more argument in favor of the Legend version... but i'm wasting my time here since everybody is blinded by Phillip's version. Go ahead, play his version and lose in the mirror against a Legend version and against combo.
I agree with your last statement. I played Phillip's 60 today (and similar 75 but with metagame considerations) at the local Legacy tonight and I hated it. The most Mentor ever did for me was get an opponent down to 1 and then eat STP and his disciples got bounced by Jace. I ended winning that game via my own Jace. The other times he was either countered or sided out because he was too slow. Him eating a counter is fine I suppose but not at the expense of 3 mana, often giving my opponent free reign to cast what they want next turn.Originally Posted by Cipher
Going down to 3 Terminus just felt bad, especially when there are decks playing CotV and you're stuck with 2 STPs in hand. Granted, you won't be able to BS them back either, but when that hand also has 2 Terminuses, that means you have 1 literal out (4 virtual if you count Jace -> BS -> back on top.) And when post board decks often bring in more creatures, having less Terminuses is bad.
totally agree. I don't really see how is that version winning against a Cavern + Venser or a set CounterTop.
In the mirror I play 1 Pithing Needle in case opponent plays Jace, so I don't even waste my rebs/U.Absent on it
So you're x REB effects go against their... What? Ponders?
I played a lot of Miracles vs Infect leading up to GP Lille as my friend was on Infect, I'm not so sure Mentor is a correct cut. I found that Miracles is capable of holding off the, as others have nicely put it, 'delver draw' but then fails to put the game away before they're able to sculpt another strong hand and find an Inkmoth. It needs to be tested more, but remember postboard they will have an answer to CB so you don't have all the time in the world. Invig and Become Immense are also hard to counter with CB. I wasn't playing mentor at the time of testing, so take this with a grain of salt, but it's worth playing some games with Mentor to see.
Council's also circumnavigates Vines, so I don't think it's as clear a cut as some people mention. It also deals with things like Library, Rod, Needle etc if you wan't find Wear//Tear.
Counterbalance? Snaps? Cliques?
on their Counterspell, Counterbalance, Cliques, critical Brainstorms..
Redirect yesterday was just great.
A huge battle over my Counterbalance to be sure to resolve the Visions on his upkeep and then.. zak
I have found Pyroclams, Entreat and Redirect to be the only things I really want against Bug.
All the rest is noise, baits and cantrips.
Thank you for this fantastic explanation. All of this makes perfect sense. I will return to my sideboard with a bit more to consider.
I agree that everyone at this point has anticorps to Blood Moon nowaday.
it's just a hard to cast tempo gainer, not anymore the win-on-the-spot card it used to be.
Clique and Pyroclasm will matter more in next meta
Anyway yes, the word weak doesn't suit Jace. I should have said fragile.
It is way too fragile for contemporary meta. I am not playing it for now.
jace is far from fragile. In fact he's one of the most resilient planes walkers and one of the reasons he is the best planes walker. Furthermore, if there ever was a deck to play it in this is it because of all of the protection. There are going to be answers to every card that gets played but that doesn't mean that its weak / fragile.
On a separate note I find your posts not very constructive. Some of the things you are saying are just crazy bad that you've caught my attention and i don't even post here normally.
You have odd choices and I feel like you don't understand the reason certain cards are included in the main deck. Lets take your choice to use Unexpectedly Absent over council's judgement... Council's was included because it hits things that cannot be targeted such as TNN. It's also a 3 drop which is nice to have when looking for a 3cmc card to flip for CB. It can be snapped just as well. Unexpectedly absent is good but it serves a different purpose and Miracles is about solving problems. These cards solve different problems. There are also several posts you've made recently and have been called out on. Don't just spam posts, try to think about them before you post and see if you are wasting peoples time or being constructive.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Personally I'm a fan of the Legends version. I think it's a lot of fun to play. Venser is a really good card and answers so many things. But i don't know if I'm confident running it at the GP seeing as how all of the recent miracles decks run almost the same list. The legends version hasn't been "proven" i guess is the right term.
The Snapcaster version and the 2 Mentor version are the tried and true decks that put up the best results. Which is why people run with them.
My first version of Miracles ran 2 Clique 1 Venser 1 Cavern of Souls and 1 karakas. It did pretty well in testing.
I still run a full playset of Jace. I was never a fan of the Ponder hype but I'm more than willing to burn Jaces as 4-mana Brainstorms in this deck. I basically want as many ways to cast Brainstorm as possible, and I can't say I've done much crying about being Jace flooded. I have considered playing a third Clique maindeck, but I do remember getting flooded with that card.
I actually am trying out 2 Ponders in place of the Red Blasts I used to have maindeck. Going back to Spell Pierce was too painful. REB wasn't that great against Combo, and I haven't decided whether Ponder or maindeck REB is better against the random Delver decks. I feel as if they mostly win off Wasteland screwing you over, so I'm inclined to go with the two Ponder.
Legends build is much better vs combo and other miracles lists, but to be honest with the ban of DTT and the rise of fair decks I feel like ponder miracles is well positioned.
Sounds like Mentor won that game! I mean, your opponent struggled hard to overcome Mentor and his diciples. Would you have won if his Jace used Brainstorm multiple times ^_^?
I know there are not many results for the Legend version but there are still some: Joe Losset keeps playing it and doing good results with it and i personally finished 14th at GP Lille and 2nd at the French Legacy Cup Last Chance (on 145 players) with it.
One more argument: If you are expecting a lot of Shardless BUG like in the last SCG Opens, i think those Legend versions are better than the 4-Ponder no legend MD version since 2 MD REB and 2 Vensers in the 75 is awesome against them.
I despise the legends mana base (I like good mana, okay?) but even I will concede that the legends version will easily tilt the matchup in your favor instead of in the shardless player's favor. The matchup is almost a nightmare for them now.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...s-14931#online
Based off MODO numbers aggregated with SCG Open and IQ data, it looks like 30% of decks have Clique + Karakas, 30% have maindeck Mentors, and the remaining 40% I assume are just running 3 Snapcaster and whichever number of Ponders.
It's always been like this. People on this forum specifically were just convinced that there was only one "good" version of Miracles. It wasn't even until the use of Dig peaked that four copies of Ponder became the "average" number on this website. Most people were winning with a wide range of builds.
How would you build it now? As i said, i love the Legends version but it was also mentioned the mana base is a bit janky. I can say this from experience. But if i were to build it, i might try something like this.
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser Shaper Servant
Instant//Sorcery 24
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Councils Judgement
1x Pyroblast
2x Entreat the Angles
Other 11
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
I could see cutting 1 EtA for 1 more REB effect main deck. But cutting it gives you only 4 solid win cons. While the mentor version has 6.
I appreciate this sort of input. Im new to the deck so i have been doing research and testing for months to find the version that works the best. I think what it boils down to is an individuals play style.
I have personally never been a fan of Ponder. I always feel like I'm drawing into a cantrip to try and draw into an answer opposed to just drawing an answer / threat.
That said i see the merit ponder has. It's really important for Miracles to have shuffle effects. Now i haven't tested this enough to say with any sort of factual data. But i have had several games where i time walk myself because i can't shuffle. It also helps with CB flips and pitches to FoW. Ponders also help with using"silver bullets" in the side board and having a way to find them easier.
Something also to consider. Decks evolve based off the meta. I didn't play miracles before 4 ponders became the norm. But it was probably a bit different back then. Which allowed for a wider range of decks. This is just speculation of course.
Surely this is why it's good? You find an answer if you need an answer or a threat if you need a threat.
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