Greetings Loamers! I'm gearing up for the GP this weekend and was waffling about a few slots in my SB. As of this past weekend, it looked liked this:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thalia
2 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Trinisphere
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Aven Mindcensor
*Note: I run a Qasali Pridemage maindeck, as my 61st card, and it's been nothing but awesome. I'm a former devotee of the Thomas Herzog School of Maverick, and agree 110% that he's gas. Hence the lack of Rec Sage in the SB.
So I'm pretty sold on most of these cards, but the slots in question right now are:
Mindcensor
Thalia (1 vs 2)
Golgari Charms (1 vs 2)
Trinisphere (0 or 2)
Rationale on including these, along with performance notes from this past weekend, in which I won TWO different legacy tourneys in Portland, going 8-0 total and dropping only one single game vs Death & Taxes where he had double mom, thalia + karakas and a jitte online.
Aven Mindcensor: Weak to hate that some decks already bring in for x/1 creatures, especially Dread of Night, but he shored up the matchup vs D&T by providing a flier and making my opponent whiff on fetching a jitte, which would've otherwise been the end of me. Also won me a match vs. storm where I ran out a Chalice on 0 t1 without any other decent play, then drew a mox and jammed Mindcensor the next turn in response to him fetching. He was on ANT, and is a very smart player at that, but they only run 7-8 fetchable lands. The other logic in bringing it in vs storm is that they often need to chain Infernal Tutors to increase storm count or find their kill spell (often a Past In Flames), which can be rough. A week prior I went undefeated at a GPT in Corvallis with a junk/maverick hybrid (subbed out 4 GSZ for 4 Bobs, and 4 Moms for 2 Mox Diamonds and Stage/Depths Combo) and Mindcensor came up in a big way when I was about to die against Lands (in resp. to crop rotation for the Depths to kill me), R/w Painter (in resp. to a recruiter, then beats with a sword on it FTW because they have 0 fliers), and an Elves matchup where I would've died to a huge GSZ right away.
Thalia: Great against Storm, but I'm starting to realize that Trinisphere and Chalice on both 0 and 1 do much more work in that matchup. She's good against Delver and other "fair" flue decks, as well as combo like Sneak & Show and Omnitell, but I've been having a ROUGH TIME against Delver. One friend is on a BUG list with two bobs and 2 hymns, and another is on an outdated Grixis list with anglers and pyromancers and whatnot (I think with Stifle replacing Dig?), and Thalia has been vastly underwhelming against their tempo plays. Chalice on one is good, but it's terrible in multiples and I'd rather have more ways of dispensing with the swarm of threats so Liliana can get to work. I'm thinking about dropping one Thalia in favor of a Molten Vortex, which is a card I'm VERY curious to see what y'all think about. I know it's nerfed by Chalice on one, but let's move beyond that and maybe see what else it can do? Seems great against Elves and various Delver builds (except maybe RUG), plus also good against Mentor-based Miracles builds, and any deck that's praying to stick a Deathrite as their primary means of disruption for your graveyard synergy. These three strategies feel like a huge swath of the meta right now!
Golgari Charms: Super diverse answer to many things, but it comes up short against Deathrites and Delvers. I know I'll keep one in for sure, but I may turn the other in to something else, because I'm also 100% running 1 Deluge.
Trinisphere: GG vs Storm. Pretty busted against Omnitell, Stoneblade, Shardless, and any other deck that doesn't have a Delver breathing down your neck on turn one. I absolutely wrecked Miracles with this card after he spent his first two turns dealing with a Chalice on 1 (he forced it, pitching a cantrip) and a Bob (he Pondered to find Swords, Swords'ed it in his main phase, then dropped a fetch and passed after that). But I sense it's one of those cards that "feels great" against tons of decks ("Everyone plays tons of one drops!") but often ends up being underwhelming when you can't get a threat online fast enough, kinda like when I was on BUG colors for a minute and brought in Notion Thief against every single deck besides D&T. I do like it more than Slaughter Games, however, because you're almost always dead before that card becomes relevant. I also name the wrong card all the time because I never know if my opponent is on ANT or Storm, whether they did or did not bring in Progenitus, or whether or not Miracles guy took out Entreat and is relying on Mentor for the win. But that's a different story for another day.
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So that's what I'm up against right now. How do we feel about Molten Vortex right now? Even if it's susceptible to getting Decay'ed immediately, it can do 2 damage and get a land in the yard for RR, which seems to be not the most terrible, unprofitable loss of card advantage. Getting a Deathrite or a Delver off the board is clutch.
Also wondering about Garruk Relentless. Has anyone used him? I keep seeing him in sideboards, presumably as a threat vs Miracles, and perhaps a hedge in grindy matchups like Shardless and Stoneblade. Not too sure though. Thoughts?
I disagree, for a few reasons:Originally Posted by Warden
1.) He doesn't suffer the "investment problem" cards like coatl do. When you cast him (arguably not hard in this deck), he's a big fat fatty that tramples over TNN and dodges Decay. No build up required.
2.) Lands is a different deck. The effects of adding 1-2 Centaurs here are much different than shoehorning him into a deck that runs zero creatures.
3.) He doesn't need Loam to be good. Granted, he's pretty shitty with a RIP on board, but we run 6 fetches, 4 diamonds, and 4 wastes. He'll be big even if we don't see Loam.
4. No idea what to cut. I'll jam him as card #61 and see if he rustles my jimmies enough for two. Keep in mind people in this thread are doing things like not running Lili, cutting a Chalice, etc. Some experimentation is fine.
PCottell, 7-8 Pieces is probably too much dedicated combo hate. I'm playing 1 Gaddock Teeg, 2 Grafdigger's Cage,2 Phyrexian Revoker,2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and that is ~3 anti-combo cards. This is usually sufficient.
Trinisphere is good in stompy decks and while this deck can make a decent stompy impression, that is not always the case. 3Ball is good in stompy because it comes down on turn 2-1 and is followed immediately by a goblin rabblemaster or the like. This deck tends to not have immediate access to bomby threats like that. We are usually a slow enough deck that if there is no wastelock, the opponent can easily play around 3ball.
Thalia vs 3ball... storm isn't going off through either, and one comes down a turn faster and is a clock. They both get decayed just as easily so the biggest downside is if the bring in clasm and the like. But the downside if 3ball is it can just be too slow, and it gives them more time to fight through it.
TL:DR you should not be bringing in any tax effects against fair decks. Thats what the GBr cards are for.
Mindcensor is interesting tech. I wouldn't test it myself but somebody probably should.
If you are having problems with delvers I suggest grinding the matchup for a couple hours. It should eventually become favorable.
Thalia is definitely not the end all be all against storm. As a storm player if all my opponent does is make Thalia and not have any other hate, I'll more than likely win that game. Thalia is annoying, but especially post board not too difficult to play through
Depends on what you mean by play through. You are probably not going to make 10 extra mana the turn after I play Thalia. Idk how big of a different 10 vs 20 is, but against ANT any single piece of hate is probably not enough. I expect my opponent to be decaying things.
Thalia herself isnt alot of hate for storm, but we have alot of storm hate build in naturally. Teeg shuts off your wincon, and Chalice on 1 or even 0 can slow some storm to a crawl.
I want to test that Plant Centaur. I expect he comes down as at least a 4/4 or 5/5 more often than not, with Trample, dodges decay, and GG to recur it, assuming it didnt get StPed
Speaking of questionable 4drops, this guys is exciting.
Regrowing a creature a turn is pretty sweet,and it can eventually just start reanimating stuff every turn.
If you mox it out discarding dryad arbor, you can reanimate the tree. :p
Probably not a mainboard card. Probably not better than garruk. But it is super sweet.
A lot of people are talking about Trample's relevance against TNN which I actually don't feel is that big of a deal. I mean, it's nice and pretty convenient but if you have a Knight in play against a TNN, odds are the Knight is the size of the small cruise ship. If your opponent doesn't leave a TNN back to block it, he/she dies instantly. Ignoring the possibility of drawing a Liliana, you can just attack with literally any other creature concurrently and you'll eventually win. I also dislike the Vine Centaur because RiP is annoying and anything I'm bringing in better match up awesomely against that card and a 1/1 is even more underwhelming than a 2/2. If banking on having a jumbo land monster before my opponent does, I'd reinvest because I'm betting on the 8+ cantrip deck finding their 2-3 of over my deck finding it's one-of+2 tutors (GSZ).
Where Trample really matters is against decks going wide, like Young Pyromancer, but that's sort of fallen out of the meta too much for me to justify including a card like the new plant beast.
But I could totally be off-base.
Some crazy jelly donut cut a chalice from main in a jelly donut tournament and I would like to hear the reasoning/results?
And good luck to said crazy jelly donut.
:V
Thanks.
-1 Chalice is actually a change that I made quite some time ago. SCG Worcester back in September being the first time I ran it at a major event. At the time, I had the following to say about it, and for the most part it still stands true. I don't really have conclusive evidence that one is better than the other, but given that I can't make such a declaration, it means that the change isn't strictly worse at the very least.
Also, the sideboard for the paper version changed a teeny bit since the tournament started. -1*Ethersworn Canonist, -1*Slaughter Games (the last one), +1*Thalia, +1*Garruk Relentless.
Also, also, I tried out Wickerbough Elder for Wednesday's weekly, but I didn't really need such an effect ever. It was part of one amusing moment against Death and Taxes though. Dark Confidant on the battlefield (with friends) staring down Batterskull. I EoT fetch for something, and as he's cutting the deck I rub my hands together and start rooting "heeeey Wickerbough Elder!" Flip for Confidant. Wickerbough Elder. He scooped and the game was pretty much over anyway (Chalice+Knight+Confidant), but it was still pretty funny.
Also, also, also, if I go to SCG Philly this Sunday, I'll be rocking the Wickerbough and will hopefully have more to report on the matter.
This card is beautiful, along with her pet I think the two can go really cool in either a bit of a changed deck with bloodghasts (or just regular old lingering souls with her pet) maybe one or two sac outlets too. I'll try make some nice deck her, both 4c loam and maybe some new Golgari reanimator/zombardment hybrid deck.Speaking of questionable 4drops, this guys is exciting.
Regrowing a creature a turn is pretty sweet,and it can eventually just start reanimating stuff every turn.
If you mox it out discarding dryad arbor, you can reanimate the tree. :p
Probably not a mainboard card. Probably not better than garruk. But it is super sweet.
Any loamers in Seattle? Would love to meet up and talk tech for the Gp
Best "tech" I can think of atm is to run 4 decay main. While 3/3 is fine, I pretty much never regret having yet another abrupt decay for the meta.
*Edit: 3/3 as in decays/pfires
What do you cut for the 4th?
4th Chalice
8-1 after today, losing round 9 to aluren. Maybe a report after my Sunday crash and burn
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Excellent run for day 1, best of luck today! Would love to hear a report later if you are up for it!
Maybe we will be watching you on camera today at some point :)
Gratz! Keep it going! Want to see a report for sure!
Currently playingEldrazi
Wow, congratulations! Really looking forward to your report.
I went a pretty miserable 4-5. Lost to elves twice, burn, intuition lands, and death and taxes. I have some notes I may share but obviously nothing particularly interesting about a report of such an unsuccessful run. Beat manaless dredge twice, bug delver, and infect.
I got nut drawn by elves quite a few times, I'm used to playing force of will xD so it sucked to just stand there with my pants down.
Intuition lands was absolutely hopeless. On the play he went turn 1 manabond and put 5 lands in play. Next turn he top decked intuition and I got combo' after being unable to find a wasteland. I probably side boarded incorrectly here (wasn't sure if I should leave chalice in or not- I did. My thinking was it shuts off crop rotation, gamble if he has it, and exploration / manabond). Anyways he just durdled a bit game 2 and rotated for the other half of his combo turn 3 I think.
The burn list was splashing black for confidant which was very good against me. I lost game 1 since I didn't know to try and find a chalice in my opener. Game 2 was easy for me I had chalice, thalia, ooze. Game 3 I mulled to 6 with 1 land (dryad arbor), canonist, chalice, and other good spells. With a scry on the draw I hoped to find a second land. I never found it. Perhaps I should have gone to 5 but I had all the right spells. I don't know.
I was disappointed to see so few delvers / never see sensei's divining top. Oh well.
Lost win and in to reanimator. Hopefully they don't replay it because I played awfully.
I'll have a report sometime this week
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