I mean, that's fine, but did you actually test him or are you just dismissing him outright? Because you can wring your hands about your decklist in theory all week long but if you don't give testing time to the different options, you're not doing your deck justice. Keep in mind that you play 8 cards that control the top of your deck to allow you to set up an ideal Abbot.Originally Posted by cherson
I'm going to be testing a list with TNN and Stifles instead of Abbots and Therapies to see if it's better. It might be, but I haven't figured that out yet because I haven't tested it.
The other direction I'm thinking is playing a few copies of Sensei's Divining Top to add more ways to control the top of my library, and to set up a little mini-combo with all the Prowess creatures. Could be good, could be terrible. Not sure yet.
The point of Abbot isn't just extra cards. He's a threat that immediately replaces himself and presents a lot of damage in the form of Prowess, something Bob doesn't offer. Considering that Bob is such a non-bo with Force and Delve, I think Abbot is definitely the better option there.
I agree with you on TNN. The metagame is starting to settle into a place where I don't think people are packing enough hate for him, because the hot deck is Shardless. And I think you can pack sideboard protection for him in the matchups where they have something like Golgari Charm. As I said before, I'll be testing him this week.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Abbot is insane. He's really strong.
Not to mention that cantrips help to mitigate the downside of playing Abbot. Not that it matters much for Legacy, but Serum Visions plays better with Abbot than Preordain.
well, your are right and I have to admit that I didn't test him. but for my deck I consider cutting 2x fish and play 2x abbot or 2x bob.
of course I have 8 cards to control the top, but I have to use the shuffle frm ponder -> no top control for abbot. I have to fetch after brainstorm -> no top control for abbot.
I know it is not common because most of the time u can work with the three cards.
anyway, I agree with you that testing is the key and everything else is just theory. but all of us playing this deck and we shld share our opinions / results.
I've been playing with abbot for the last couple of weeks now, and I've got to say I've been thoroughly happy to see him in my hands. I cut two pyromancers for two abbots and kind of treat him like half a dig through time. It's definitely important to set him up before you play him, which adds a "fun" challenge to the deck (as if legacy wasn't hard enough to play already), but you know what? I'm an adult and can practice patience and cast cards when I can get out of them what I want.
Like, Delvis said, on a clear board he closes the game very quickly and when paired with another "must block threat" he can be free damage from prowess. In one game, I had two on board against RUG with my opp at thirteen life. A probe, a brainstorm, and a bolt later my opponent had taken lethal. The nice thing as opposed to YP is the urgency to the damage he can provide. I like having both of course, but it's just another tool to help you switch gears, which is the point of tempo in my opinion. Sometimes you wanna durdle and wait with tokens. Sometimes you wanna close the game out. Sometimes you wanna force your opponent into bad blocks (which the prowess provides). Also, it's been really nice to hold abbot against terminus and verdict to set up a second threat after the wipe, wait for them to pull the trigger and rebuild the board quickly.
Bob is a different animal it seems. You could try keeping him in the board and bring it in in the matchups where you take out force anyways, though then you may need to abandon the angler. But at that point you may even want to try sylvan library out of the board and then you can keep your forces and anglers.
Opinion shared.
The primary difference between Abbot/Swiftspear and other threats is that they encourage you play your spells at sorcery speed rather than instant speed. So you're basically trading flexibility for power. Whether or not this is a good thing is highly situational.
Probe and Ponder are both sorceries, as is Cabal Therapy. This is the primary reason I swapped my Stifles for Therapies, which I think is ultimately a lateral move or even an improvement, even though I do miss my Stifles.
They do prompt you to play your Probes aggressively, rather than waiting to set up a Therapy. However, I don't think this temptation is really strong unless you have multiple Prowess creatures, at which point it's actually pretty strong value to pull the trigger. Considering my list plays fewer YPs, your Therapies are more dependent on Probes to be good, so if you're only getting 1 trigger, that isn't worth it (unless, of course, it's lethal, or puts them into Lightning Bolt range, etc).
Outside of that, you get fine value out of holding your instants as normal. Holding up mana and attacking is often enough to force damage through, because your opponent is hesitant to block your dudes, even with a large Tarmogoyf (or Angler/Tasigur). A 5/6 Goyf will die to a Bolt if it blocks an Abbot, or a Brainstorm + Bolt if if blocks a Swiftspear.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Personally I don't usually play Swiftspear unless I'm also playing some copies of Chain Lightning, and I'd probably use the same logic for Abbot.
Interesting. Chain Lightning is a card I've been wanting to try out in the main deck. MD Therapy has been underwhelming with low numbers of YP, so I may try it out.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
A few observations from the Top 8 at the GP:
- Grixis Delver is clearly still a very competitive deck, even without the changes I've been making. Basically, you can swap Digs for Anglers and you've got an updated list. We saw that at EE with Ed Demicco and now we've seen it at GP SeaTac with the Calculator.
- Calcano's match against Jarvis is basically the reason why I've made the changes I've made. Lands is incredibly popular in my area, and my list has a better matchup against that deck. Playing the more traditional list is fine, and you can and will succeed with it, but in a heavy Lands meta you will only get so far before running into the Lands buzzsaw.
- Legacy is awesome and shame on SCG for abandoning us. Props to Tales of Adventure for stepping up into the void and helping replace some of that lost value.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
So I just played with the next list at the Legacy Open Series Eindhoven and would like to hear some thoughts on what you think of it.
12 Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
30 Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dead // Gone
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
18 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
/Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Mana Maze
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Terminate
1 Hydroblast
Round 1 vs Shardsless: 1-0-0
Win the die-roll, he mulled 3 times, win game 1 without knowing what I'm up against. Wasted his land and I had 2 Shaman in play when he scooped.
Game 2 I didn't board anything becouse I didn't know the match-up yet. Landed Angler and beated him down with it.
Round 2 vs Miracles: 2-0-0
Win the die-roll. Game 1 I beat him down really slowly with Delver I manage to protect hating his manabase. Shaman finished the job when Delver finally got killed.
Game 2 I took out the 4 Bolts and the Dead//Gone to add 2 Decay, Dimir Charm, True-Name, Needle and Null Rod. Thinking I could hate his Top and fight the Terminus.
Ended up beating him down with Delver/Shaman on a slow pace. Proberly should have kept the Bolts in the deck to get some finish range instead of relying on the aggro.
Round 3 vs Sylvan Plug: 2-1-0
Win the die-roll again. Game 1 I get hit with Chalice@1, Trinisphere and Choke. I try to get my spells down to slam Angler, but it was just a bit too late. Got him down to 6 mosly becouse of his own tomb.
I swapped the 2 Probes and 4 Stifles for Grudge, 2 Decays True-Name, Terminate and Submerge
Game 2 I can get control and he scoops.
Game 3 was close, but at the end I didn't grab my green land/fetch in time to cast Decay on his Knight of the Reliquary. Together with 2 Obstinate Baloth and a he could fight my Angler and True-Name after he topdecked Toxic Deluge to kill the True-Name.
Round 4 vs RUG/Threshold: 2-2-0
Lost the die-roll. Game 1 he beat me with 2 delvers that flip pritty late, but he was able to kill my 2 Delvers and Shaman with Bolts/Forked Bolt. Angler just hit too late on my side of the table.
Swapped 4 Forces and 2 Probes for 2 Pyroblast, Hydroblast, Submerge, True-Name and Terminate.
Game 2 I waste/stifle away and hit Angler for the win without trouble.
Swapped Force/Dazes back since I'm on the draw this game.
Game 3 was really close. In the end, he landed Goose and I took a beating too much before I could find Angler to stop it, with was on the top of my deck when he drew Bolt for the win before I could activate my Shaman to get my life back up.
Round 5 vs Jund: 3-2-0
I lose the die-roll. Game 1 He starts of with Badlands. I drop Delver and waste him. He wasn't alble to get more land in play becouse of stifles and drops fast.
I didn't board anything for game 2 since I had no idea what I was up against.
Game 2 I figured he was playing JUND. Managed to control his lands again and beat with Angler/Shaman/Delver.
Round 6 vs Elves: 4-2-0
I lose the die-roll. Game 1 I shoot every bolt I find to his creatures and counter the Glipses. KIll him with a Delver.
Swapped 2 Probe, 4 Daze, 2 Angler and 1 Stifle for Needle, Submerge, Mana Maze, Dimir Charm, 2 Decay, True-Name, Cage and Terminate.
Game 2 I got beat down by Ruric Thar I didn't have the counter for.
Game 3 I try to pierce (instead of pitching pierce to FoW I had on hand) his Glipse, him having only 2 cards on hand and no mana left if he would pay it. He pays off, drops Cradle and combo's for a load of Elves. I manage to use the Force to counter the Craterhoof. I manage to kill him with Delver at the 5th turn of out-of-time-turns by dropping a Needle on his Shamans he found to keep him alive towards a draw.
Round 7 vs Elves: 5-2-0
I win the die-roll. Game 1 I get slammed with Ruric Thar.
Swapped 2 Probe, 4 Daze, 2 Angler and 1 Stifle for Needle, Submerge, Mana Maze, Dimir Charm, 2 Decay, True-Name, Cage and Terminate.
Game 2 I kill everything he drops and with a good board position on my side, he scoopes to get to game 3.
Game 3 was really tough. At the end I managed to gain board position with Mana Maze, Needle, Angler, Saman, True-Name and drop a Clique on his turn before I got leathal. I make a huge mistake shipping out his Craterhoof that he could not cast that turn. With the other 2 cards being Natural Order and Elvish Visionary. He drew a Decay out of the Clique, killed the Maze and drew another Elf from the Visionary so he could leathal with N.O. to Craterhoof. He sacrificed the wrong creature so he missed leathal and I still won. Proberly becouse we were both too flabbergasted by the misplay of the Clique and the comeback with the Decay.
I ended on spot 11, getting some boosters for being top 16.
It was a fun day, made some good plays and some terrible mistakes (like the Clique). But at the end, I'm happy with the result.
Most fun play of the day: Decay an Elf on the opponents upkeep with Mana Maze in play to get myself a time-walk.
If anyone here has some thoughts on the main deck, sideboard or boarding actions, please leave a note.
Congrats on the finish!
- How was Dead//Gone for you? It's a curious choice. Did it work well?
- How was your Mana Maze tech, all things considered?
- What is Sylvan Plug? Knight of the Reliquary and Ancient Tomb? You lost to it, so I'm curious.
- Given your meta, I think you should play Perish in the sideboard. It would have been relevant against literally every deck you played, except Miracles. That's crazy value. Kills your DRS but wipes their table, and is a clean out to Mongoose.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Looks like Grixis Delver is still doing very well post ban, despite the naysayers (me included). That's exciting to see.
I miss DRS, Young P and Cabal Therapy over at the RUG camp.
Sylvan Plug green(/black/white) stompy. This guy played something similiar to the decks you see in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Green-stompy) . The deck basily messes up blue-based decks.
Dead//Gone is something I pulled out of the sideboard into the main board to have a 5th removal spell. I noticed myself bringing it in alot of times against alot of different match-ups so I figured I might as well pop it in the main deck. I'm still not sure if this is the right removal for the main deck. It's pritty good being able to shock most creatures on instand, and occasionaly bounce a goyf/Angler along the way. It preformed good for me so far.
Good call on the Parish, going to sleeve it up for the next tournement. I havn't played it for a while becouse of the Shamans. But then again, hitting a single Shaman to sweep a board sounds like a plan.
Proberly end up cutting the Hydroblast.
The Mana Maze tech is doing well so far. It was really effective the Elves match-up since he can't combo with Glipse anymore or build up alot of creeps quick to ramp up. I've also got it against a Belcher deck another time and it screwed the deck to a point I had the time to build up a hand of counters with a clock on the board. Also tested it a couple of times against Burn with succes. Same story with Elves: no quick combo's anymore. Also occasional timewalks when bolting in the enemy upkeep. Other storm decks should be fine to to beat while having the Maze in play, but I havn't managed to have it in play yet against them.
Thanks for responding!
That Sylvan Plug deck is weird, and seems like a really miserable matchup. Not much you can do when they maindeck Chokes and Chalices.
Regarding Dead//Gone, I usually play Fire//Ice for a 5th removal spell. You can pitch it to Force when it's truly dead, Ice cantrips and can force through damage, and getting to split the two damage can be a big deal in matchups against decks that play lots of small creatures. Ed Demicco maindecked a Fire//Ice in his EE-winning list. Just a thought, if you're unsatisfied with Dead//Gone.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Glad to see this deck is still alive!
I should probably update the primer to include the latest lists (such as Calacano's), and also with the information about the dig through time ban.
I have been working on a similar version with a buddy at my local store, and he is doing pretty well with it. I panicked and sold my Grixis stuff to build BUG delver, but it doesn't appear to be strictly better in the new metagame, and stifle is actually in a really great spot right now.
Mana Maze is a bizarre card. What matchups is it for besides Elves?
Nice. It might be a good idea to comment on a few of the different styles (more stifle/wasteland, more green/decay).
Storm.
I do like the tech, actually. Sometimes it's best to just slam something and then curve out as normal, rather than neutering your tempo in holding up reactive cards.
I am more interested in hearing from @Delvis about the 0 young pyromancers in the 75.
Well it's not my list, but I understand the compulsion to cut the YPs. I probably wouldn't be so bold as to do so in a reactive build like Draggo's, but he's playing in the European meta and I have little familiarity with what he expects to play against. Given his report, the answer so far is, green creatures and lots of them. He posted a decent finish, so it may not be hurting him too much, although it would be fair to ask if he would have done even better with them in the deck.
My build has struggled with Therapies recently; if I haven't set it up with a Probe, it's a very hit-or-miss card. Without a lot of YPs, it's tough to get full value. I've been thinking about tweaking the numbers a bit, perhaps running 2 Therapy and 3 YP, but seeing the success of the Stifle lists recently has been tempting me to return to playing those and abandoning Abbot (for now). If I did move back to the DRS-based list, I would think my first stop at the tech shop would be Painful Truths. It plays the role of Treasure Cruise fairly well, and since all of your protective countermagic is free anyway, paying 3 mana isn't that much of a hindrance. Plus it can't be Pyroblasted, which is actually huge, and Counterbalance struggles to counter 3s.
As a follow-on to that, the next stop would be the planeswalker aisle for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Ed Demicco played 2 Snapcaster Mage in his sideboard in his Top 8 list from Legacy Champs, and my idea would be using the JVP in this role, with the primary reasoning being his larger long-term impact on the board and his comparative mana-thriftiness (since you don't have to pay his mana cost in the same turn as you pay for the spell's cost). Flashing back Painful Truths with the JVP is good in Standard, but when you're drawing Force of Wills and Brainstorms it gets a lot more better.
And, I just thought I'd mention, Mana Maze has utility against Shardless as well, since it basically shuts off Shardless' Cascade (80% of the things they can cascade into can't be played). You can also still Stifle the final Suspend trigger on their Ancestral Vision, since the Vision hasn't actually been played yet - and if you do, they can't really interact with the Stifle. It can be Abrupt Decay'd, but I think if that's what they are Decaying, you're doing alright. Again, keep in mind he's playing in the European meta, which (based on his list and report) seems to be heavily populated with Elves. I'm not sold on it yet, but if he likes it and it's been good for him, it's hard to argue with success. Plus it's always fun to make people read your sideboard cards.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote