Naah... iam not sure if bring 4th color is wise with 4 basics...
And only cose of punishing fire?
Isnt just better use few copies of Swords or Paths and avoid this mana distabilisation?
and ofc now u r definitly not able to kill some huge guys.
Are we bringing Siege Rhino to Jund or Punishing Fire to Junk?Originally Posted by Nargoron
Punishing Fire requires multiple red sources next to a full set of Groves to function. Rhino only needs a random white source. Veteran Explorer is the most important color fixer, so i would really want a basic plain for those situations where it matters. Plus this should make the mana base Wasteland/Moon proof. The Savannah is there for the similar situation in that it can be fetched with a fetch (duh). The Karakas is just added (but not really required) extra.
If we are going to agree that Swords is better then Punishing Fire because it removes big dudes then we should not look at Jund entirely, since PFire is the main reason to run it in the first place. So lets not agree on that. We could say that adding few copies of Swords is good, but i just concluded that the manabase should have more focus on red, rather then white to support PFire better. Including more white required cards will put a strain on the manabase. The only reason we can lean more on white sideboard cards is because MU's where those cards come in typically do not run Wasteland and you can play your manabase more greedy (and you rely less on PFire). Not being able to kill the big dudes remains a problem for the Jund version as it is, so we can (have to) rely on Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse.
All in all, the manabase would be very shaky, your most important fixers are Veteran Explorer and Fetchlands, and red would have to be your main focus after GB.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Ok but your Sigarda gonna suffer...
I have problem often with 2W in junk version..
And to be honest, she is the reason why i am playing junk... not the rhino.
But back to the point, when u r playing punishing version... why play punishing fire? PFire kill little dudes... isnt pernicious deed and deluge better in this way? Only advantage for PFire is reducing jayce cose he is thorn in ours asses...
PFire needs to be efective some extra untutorable land, is vulnerable to grave hate (shaman and so on..), increasing opponents lifes, and cose 2 mana to deal 2 damage...
Maybe i just still didnt get the power of Punishing fires... maybe i should try some delver deck against punnishing fire to feel his power.
More then this version i can imagine junk with taiga and bloodmoon in sb
Another question is on your 3 copies of Slaughter Games
I didnt get the poin of this card too..
There was debate how its good against miracles. But that is the only mu where i see some effect of this card.
In another MU
a) there is no important target for slaughter games or
b) 4 mana is just too slow...
Could anybody gimmy example why its amazing? (no offense, just curious :) )
A lot of creatures die to PFire. Running Junk vs Jund is a meta choice tbh (or like me simply because i like the "feel" of jund NicFit). But as soon as you recur Pfire and kill the second creature with it, you have card advantage. Deed is often the card to reset after the early game war. After that you hold control with PFire. it shreds fair.dec
Running pfire with rhino was a suggestion out of earlier posts. I just wanted to see if i got to make a valid list. I agree on Sigarda.
Slaughter Games was ontriduced to battle the horrid SnT MU. It is good against a lot of combo decks like OmniShow, High Tide, Storm while also be very strong against Miracles. I run 3 simply because i really want that vard to see play. It is indeed slow, but with 6 discard and various other tools lile Carpet and DRS/Scooze you should be able to live just long enough to resolve one.
Edit: jund is not so much as induvidual cards being good, it is the synergy of small effects that make it a whole. Because the effects of single cards look small you miss the effect they have on each other and in total synergy. Junk is more about bigger effects and cards have a more "clear" effect. Jund has an incredible manoeuvrability.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
and isnt just pure multiple gaddock better? faster...
Hm, i can see just discarding PFire to lili... or searching part of PFire combo with Diabolic Intent
but iam mayble blind ^_^
but yea, i just like more junk then jund :)
in my oppinion there are more ways to build junk version then jund
SnT is cast thru Teeg, it still dies to StP and will be EoT dealth with by ANT. SG offers a permanent solution. Teeg on the other hand can be searched by GSZ. All have pros and cons.
There is more to it then discarding PFire to Liliana (which is ok, but it isnt even relevant that often). Like i said, the Jund list is highly manoeuvrable. It is hard to explain, but the deck has a way of finding an exit to a near lost game and can still win. In the end it is like you say, your blind to it because you like Junk more. And that is fine. There is a flavor for everyone.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
While I am with you on the junk vs jund debate, there's one thing we cannot deny: SBD is f'in cool (but a 7/8 flying trampling helixing rhino is even cooler - in this case the opponent's wtf moment is priceless)
btw when i was talking about me junk...
there is my current list
1x Batterskull
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Sylvan Library
Creatures:
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Deathrite shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green sun's Zenith
1x Toxic Deluge
21x land
2x Forest
2x Plain
2x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heat
SB:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Ethernsworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Choke
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vindicate
iam not sure about last 2 slots, maybe wasteland + Crop rotation to make Karakas more valuable and have some tool to deal with lands/posts
I appreciate your advice
Maybe i am overlooking it, but whats with the Taiga?
Also Ralf suggested running Knight of the Reliquary. It would be a solid call (maybe a tad slow) over the Crop.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
@ truth or top : why not use both ?
When playing top I had the problem of needing to draw lands, but being tempted by sexier cards ( and still drawing the land I needed but feeling bad about it ).
One way to go around this problem is courser, the other one is to play truth and top ( and courser cause Mc greedy is my last name).
Currently I play 3 top, 4 greensun as my card quality and 2 truth, courser, Meren and witness as my card advantage. It feels good.
I'be tried azban charm but the horrible mana cost made it impossible to cast where I needed it ( against marith lage and delver) and if I don't use it as a removal it feels subpar as a draw spell. So I play a shitload of removals ( 3 path 3 decay 2 deed and 2 deluge ) and a lot of CA / card selection .
Running 3 top and 1 courser is currently standard. Meren is propably also the new standard.
But there is simply 0 room for Truths in the list. Running more of that means you have less room for other stuff. In Junk without SFM it should be fine, since those lists have more design space.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Now, after disagreeing on Meren and then realising I was wrong, I feel stupid in arguing against yet another creature. I'm talking about courser: I have never felt like I wanted to spend 4 mana to gsz for him. He doesn't impact the board, doesn't tax the opponent (drs, ooze, teeg, militant), doesn't wall goyfs. Meren doesn't wall goyfs as well but I think we have to consider her like an high impact-must be answered asap bomb. Courser doesn't fall in this category, and while he gives decent value he is too slow and the mana needed to cast him could be used for bigger threats/ to keep decay up. In my humble opinion, I might as well wait a turn and use the gsz for Meren/Rhino because otherwise gsz into courser feels like a wasted tutor.
Taiga - no reason yet... :D it should be third basic forest or 9th fetchland... or use bloodmoon in SB
Knight of the reliquary - crop rotation is much more faster. On the other hand i can tutor him
But without wastelands he cant grow up :/
iam gonna thing about it
Courser: i must first say that i needed to get used to playing this card. You need to squeeze him between your early turn ramp and midgame bombs, just like you said. But i made it my SOP to do so. The benefit? Courser of Kruphix is a lategame fixer (at least, that is how i look at him). Without SDT, it filters your top of the library from lands so your most likely end up drawing into non lands + it accelerates your manabase development (if it doenst right away, then it will in a few turns). This results in a more stable shift to the lategame. If the Courser is coupled with SDT it becomes a serious card advantage engine. Rearrange top so you draw the card you want, often there will be a land in the 3 top cards, so you can play the land from the top. That is 2 card draws a turn, plus your SDT gets 2 new fresh cards per turn. And let's not forget you get more fetches on the table so you have more way's to refresh the top 3. Marginal, but also helping is the lifegain for playing lands. It is the sum of small things that make the synergy. Lifegain from DRS, Thragtusk and Scooze all add up. Yes, it does die to Decay, but we can't have it all. Playing the card into removal is silly, you have to know when to play it. If you need to do something about a goyf, you search for a decay. Taxing the opponent will come in time, if you need Teeg or Militant, then something else is going on that needs answers like those. Courser is about stabilizing your board presence for the long haul. So yeah, not always the card you need. But he is a card you always want.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I understand, but I think he is still a greed inducing creature! At least witness, for 3 mana, give us back a path or a decay to do something (like killing a delver or a goyf), while courser requires time. And not always we, almost always the slow deck, have spare time: in the early games we have to survive early delvers and or goys, while battling against daze and pierces (and wasteland to a lesser extent). Even a single turn, like the one we spend casting a 3-4 mana do-nothing-when-it-comes-down creature, can and often will be crucial for our life total. It definitely is a fun card, and even a value creature, but the setup he needs is too big to milk massive value from him. I'll continue to try him..
iam sceptical about this card too...
but today it save me a game and gimmy healthy top decks..
BUT yea, do you wanna spent GSZ for him? In many scenarios you rather fetch for Witness...
I might be a bit inexperienced with this deck but I'm pretty good at identifying what works and what doesn't after playing it. From experience I can say that Courser is amazing, if you don't need the value right away it's a better 3 drop than Eternal Witness.
Without SDT it's worth somewhere around .33 cards per turn (depending on land left in the deck), increases your topdeck quality, gains about .6 life per turn , gives you information on when you should shuffle, and beats some removal. Where it gets really amazing though is with SDT, then it jumps to about .6 cards per turn, 1.2 life per turn, and gives you a mechanism to clear SDT easily, in addition to it's regular benefits. The card just fills a bunch of holes.
I rarely GSZ into Courser though, I find that it's a jack of all trades, master of none type of card while GSZ is looking for specific things. Instead I run multiple Coursers and leave it up to GSZ to find the other things I need.
I'm actually not a fan of the T3 Courser either. I find it works best coming down on turn 6+. You want to soak up the opponents removal first so that it can sit around and generate advantage, on top of that it just doesn't curve well on T3 unless Veteran Explorer already came down. A T3 Courser risks dying before you can play a land and generate some value, and with a T4 Courser you don't really want to play it and then be pressed into a 1 drop (if you even have one in hand). Courser works best when you can play it and something else in the same turn, either with a land in hand (ideally a fetch) or after setup from Top.
Nice analysis
He just make... little things, but many little things...
If we are talking about stabilisation late game..
what about Evolutionary Leap?
At first look... its ridiculous... and probably too much depending on situation
BUT... you have another way how to sac veteran, you can keep clearing veterans, Dt shamans in late game and try to change them with some rhino for example?
You can sac useless 1/2 Stoneforge mystiq after she did her job... Witness the same...
You add counters to Meren and make him more valuable
You have another way to ,,shuffle" your library when your SenseisDTop show you 3x dead cards..
any sugestion?
Or Do you think that is just a silly dream?
Ofc then you have to play max 2x Pernicious Deed and use more toxic deluge... this is probably the worst side...
(If there were a discusion about this card, iam sorry)
Disappointing 2-3-drop at Mythic this month. Started 2-0, then went 0-3. I played basically the same list I played last month, except I dropped the 2nd Courser for a Maelstrom Pulse, and I dropped the sideboard Elspeth for a Nether Void. The deck was actually a very good call for this month (the fact that I almost always jam it notwithstanding) -- the room had a bunch of fair decks in it, lots of delver and miracles, and the various combo decks that -were- present tended to the slower side of the spectrum, which is better for us. Unfortunately I didn't draw very well on the day and had to mulligan a lot. I was consistently one turn from winning games all day, which I chalk up to the repeated mulligans.
R1 was vs a bug brew that was essentially bug delver, except instead of delvers he was running stiflenaught. Still a lot of Tasigurs and Gurmags. Game one he did the blue deck thing and just drew cards until he died. Game two my opponent learned that Gurmag Angler loses to Baneslayer.
R2 was vs deathblade with a maindeck Vraska, maindeck TNNs, and maindeck Academy Ruins. I was a hair worried about this match sitting down -- this is always super grindy, and my opponents list was particularly greedy // lategame powered. I needn't have worried. Nissa and Baneslayers carried the fuck out of me both games. Seriously, if you aren't playing Nissa yet, go buy one. Card is unreal.
R3 was vs Elves. Game one was super long and grindy...he hit me with an early hoof, but couldn't kill and had to rebuild to get to his second. I had some time to find a Deed, but couldn't get there despite filtering with Courser and fetches. I hit a Baneslayer and had him on a 3-turn clock, but he drew into a symbiote to go with his visionary, and killed me shortly thereafter. Game two lasted somewhere around 10 turns. My opponent mulled to 5 and kept a no-lander on the draw, which I exacerbated by Deeding@0 to kill his Dryad Arbor (the first land he drew / played on turn 3). In these 10 turns, I saw exactly 2 of my sideboard cards (of which I brought in 12). Note that I had a turn 1 Top and was fetching or Zenithing almost every turn. I Slaughter Games'd out his Craterhoof so he couldn't just spontaneously oops me, and then withstood 3 of his glimpses by using my remaining two deeds and my E.Plague (which I finally hit super fucking late, like turn 8ish?) to sweep his board repeatedly. The problem with Elves is that unless you have something to actually keep them down (Canonist, Nether Void, Mindcensor, Plague), sweeping them doesn't actually do anything. I eventually died in turns, although my opponent would've won the match anyway if we'd actually timed out. Excrutiatingly tilting match, and I think that in a way some of my problems the next two rounds were partially caused by mentally checking out after this. I'm fine with a reasonable amount of variance -- I wouldn't be playing Magic still after all of these years if I wasn't. But when I board in 12 cards and am seeing 4 fresh cards every turn for 10 turns, only seeing 2 of those sideboard options is just flat unreasonable.
R4 was vs Grixis Delver. I mull to 5 g1, and he goes t1 delver t2 young pyro with daze, fow, and stifle backup over the next couple of turns. Happens. Game 2 he makes the mistake of playing a t2 Sulfuric Vortex when he has a DRS and I have 2 Vets that have been actively punching him. He ends up dying to his own Vortex...he eventually blocks one of the Vets with the DRS, but that lets me play a Rhino with Thoughtseize backup, which bolts him and then presents a huge trampling thing. G3 I mull to 6 again (something like my 4th or 5th mull to 6 on the day at this point), and I'm one turn short. This game is pretty close all the way down, but he manages to use double DRS + double bolt to burn me out from a hale 10 life. I knew about the first Bolt, but he had exactly one turn to draw the second, and without it he didn't actually have enough damage or spells to throw at me with deathrite for the kill. Can't really complain too much since it was such a close game, but it still rankles a little to lose this matchup in general.
R5 was vs mono-u omnitell. I'm not even going to pretend that I didn't play like a complete monkey this match, because I did. Game 1 he just railroads me, okay, fine, that's your role in this world. Game two I know he has an Emrakul in his hand, so I slaughter games it out. This was the same guy I played vs last month who had like 3 Emrakul 2 Griselbrand with Burning Wishes and etc, so I wasn't sure how many Emrakul he was running this time. Was just the one, which is whatever I guess. A second Slaughter on Cunning Wish wins the game at that point, and he still needs to find Show and Tell, Omni, and Enter to actually kill me, plus I had a Nether Void sitting in my hand, so I still actually think that naming Emrakul there and taking the bird in his hand is correct. It resets him to having to draw 3 combo cards instead of just 2, an realistically just Showing an Emrakul is good enough most of the time, so removing that as a line was good too.
The problem is that I should've then played the Nether Void the next turn. I was worried about deploying the Void without a clock in play, so I pussed and played Nissa to respin my Top and get a bear into play. He spends a turn cantripping, I do something irrelevant (still not playing the Void that I should be, because I'm erroneously under the opinion that putting it in off the show and tell is better than casting it), and then he Shows on his next turn. I drop the Void, he grumbles and has to pass the turn. I Therapy him, but am on 5 mana so I can't flashback. I call Cunning Wish, which was totally the incorrect call -- I knew he had an Enter floating around in his hand earlier from when I Slaughtered him, but I assumed that he had Brainstormed it away while he was digging. He doesn't have the Wish, but does have the Enter. He pays 3 for it next turn, draws his deck, plays a City of Traitors to get 3 more mana to be able to wipe away my Void, and then I die.
I don't even really know what to say about that other than that I played badly and deserved to lose.
tl;dr:
Deck was good, built correctly and the right call for the metagame.
Nissa is a goddess, treat her accordingly.
Baneslayer did heavy lifting today in basically every game I won. At least two of those games, I would not have won if Baneslayer was anything other than a Baneslayer (insert arbitrary bomb here).
Extreme variance is still incredibly tilting to me.
Mulligans suck: the scry rule helps (now that I'm consistently remembering that it exists finally), but doesn't compensate enough to do anything other than games tantalizingly close. Being down a card is still a large mountain of advantage.
Meren never came online on the day. She got to scare the shit out of some people, but I usually had other things to do that were more important. I wasn't unhappy to draw her at any point, that said.
Titan/deed is still the nut high, even though it only happened once on the day (vs deathblade guy).
The biggest slop was barely ever drawing Therapy. I never drew it vs Elves in either game, I never drew it vs Grixis in any of the three games, and I only drew one vs Omnitell, late in g2.
Not sure if I'm going to run it back again for January (next mythic is the 9th, will be attending). I might investigate a bug version -- either possibly looking into the Jace Vryn reanimator style deck, or something more traditional. Thune is also on the list of possibles, as is Pod. I still think the deck is very solid right and worth playing, I'm just mostly worried that it's become a little too predictable since I've run it for two months in a row now -- people remembered it from last month and knew what I was up to more than I like.
I am not gonna lie, that gave me a hearty chuckle.
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