All B/R update speculation.

[GundamGuy]

l play exclusively Lands, and Thresh is arguably better than a bye because the improved tie breakers actually off-set those rare occasions when Lands loses this MU. If I'm exaggerating it's only slightly. Either way, this is a horrendous match for RUG.

Honestly I don't understand the appeal to having skewed MUs vs even MUs.What's important is your average win-rate, assuming that accounts accurately for you probability of running into each of your possible matches.

I think we are doing well!

Its not my intent to misrepresent you, nor talk past you, and I see I was a bit off the mark on a point or two. I'm running to work, but will post later.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the bolded part, so I am going to assume you mean what I'm talking about.

What it comes down to is that a deck that you can't really meta game against (because at worst it's pretty close to 50/50 against anything you throw at it...), and a deck that you can actually metagame against are very different beasts.

What I am trying to explain is why the philosophy of just waiting for the metagame to adapt might actually just have you waiting forever.

[thefringthing]

Ban Sensei's Divining Top, unban Mana Drain. BOOM! Problem solved.

You don't get to lock your opponent out of the game on turn two, but you do get your Jace on turn three.

[barcode]

Ban Sensei's Divining Top, unban Mana Drain. BOOM! Problem solved.

You don't get to lock your opponent out of the game on turn two, but you do get your Jace on turn three.

As a Vintage player that already owns 4 Mana Drains: I approve of this message.

[Dice_Box]

Can we unban Workshops while we are at it to make a rival control/prison deck?

[Stevestamopz]

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...should-change/



<3 u Caleb

[CabalTherapy]

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...should-change/



<3 u Caleb

Worst "article" ever. Caleb transtorms into a Hoogland-like rageboy. Not that I'd care about any of the cf/scg dudes.

[Bobmans]

Worst "article" ever. Caleb transtorms into a Hoogland-like rageboy. Not that I'd care about any of the cf/scg dudes.

That is trending, seems like WotC have kicked that off with their respons on leaks.

[Sloshthedark]

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...should-change/



<3 u Caleb

ridiculous and poorly argumented, gotta by joke or something, is it this forum copypaste? I haven't read it lately...

[Crimhead]

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...should-change/

Wow. Dude wants to turn Legacy into powered up Modern (he even called his proposal a Modern style overhaul). Frankly he can suck my Tabernacle.

[Cartesian]

My opinion is that all those cards should be unbanned in Modern. Because I like them all, they are cool, and Modern would be more fun.
Maybe I should write an article.

[Dice_Box]

Um. Ok. That was not something I agree with. I think I will leave it at that.

Edit.
At lest he is honest about his wants, his reasons and his acknowledgement that his views are unpopular ones. This article to me is something that should be overlooked and everyone should move on from. He is stating an opinion but is not really putting any real weight behind it. In a few weeks this will be another forgotten article with no lasting impact. There is no reason now to make anything of it.

[Zombie]

Damn. He wasn't kidding when he said borderline war crimes. He's going postal on the card pool.

[Crimhead]

Not at all. Just because I think Counterbalance is overpowered does not mean I think that prison/control should be banned out of existence.

That's fair. But citing CB's favourable comparison to Change is not evidence for it being OP, unless you mean to assert that Chalice is at the maximum acceptable power level for a lock piece.

Other prison cards are powerful, but ask you to sacrifice some of your own consistency in order to unlock their power. That actually means that prison becomes one of the most diverse, interactive archetypes in the format if you look at non-countertop decks. For example, a key card in both Lands and D&T is Rishadan Port. Each deck has a different way of overcoming the self-2-for-1 that Port really is (tap two of your lands to tap one of theirs): Lands has exploration/diamond, while D&T has Aether Vial. Or Chalice, which is powered out by sol lands or Mox Diamond, requires you to take one-drops out of your own deck (or reduce them to a minimum), and ends up yielding decks from MUD to Loam to Tezzeret.

D&T is a disruptive white-weenie deck. It's far too aggressive to be considered a pure control deck. Lands is good, but its a small percent of the meta, and is only actually good thanks to a rules update giving it a combo element and a faster clock (it also doesn't run chalice except sometimes in the board). MUD and Tezz are not tier one, and also far more aggressive than a pure prison deck like Geddon Stacks.

Chalice is a great card for side boards and aggressive decks (merfolk & loam) to fight can trips and combo. But as a prison enabler it is sadly lacking. If you accept tier one grindier prison decks in Legacy, you simply must accept lack tools which are more effective than Chalice.

That all being said, I'm not even ready to die on the hill that Miracles needs banned immediately. However, I think it's obvious that it is the best deck, and that it comes with logistical issues that impact tournaments. Counterbalance is the reason for both of these facts, which are irrefutable.

They are also knd of irrelevant, because there will always be a deck on top, which is fine as long as it has tier-one unfavourable MUs), and there will always be matches going to time.

When Chalice was banned, So Many Insane Plays did a really interesting podcast about the "dominance" of MUD.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-man...d-list-update/

I don't have time to listen to this what with Xmas comming and all. Can you give me the jist?

Slightly misleading. If you enter a tournament expecting to win, your chances of facing the top decks go up round by round. Miracles is unquestionably the top deck, therefore you need to consider the likelihood of facing it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that 15% figure is calculated from top tables. If you are correct, Miracles would have lower than 15% representation in the qualifying rounds, meaning you should expect to face it even less than what I said!

Incidentally, I think you are wrong about Miracles. Every time SCG has released the day two meta breakdown of a large event, Miracles is as dense at the start of day two as it ends up in one or more top brackets.

In other words, statistically you chance of facing Miracles doesn't increase as you advance (at least not once most of the jank has been filtered out). This paints a picture of an averagely powerful deck who's results are propped up by sheer bulk.

Miracles already plays Monastery Mentor, Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique, aggressive, disruptive, midrangy creatures.

Ban Mentor! I'm going only kidding (though I do think the card is bad for Legacy and shouldn't have been printed).

Most Miracles builds run 0-2 Mentors, and usually fewer than six creatures (sometimes a lot fewer). So far, the deck is still decidedly less aggressive than D&T, Stoneblade, or BUG control. Still, I confess the more little dudes the deck runs the more Miracles loses its identity.

Miracles is the most played deck in Legacy, it is not under-represented.

No, but hard control arguably is underrepresented compared to tempo, combo, and midrange. And if hard control isn't underrepresented, it's thanks to Miracles! Take that away and hard control barely exists only Lands remains (which is arguably combo/control).

That said, if Miracles evolved to the point where it regularly sports 11 or more of those creatures (or some arbitrary number), it will no longer be hard control and just be another midrange deck. At that point 15% might be enough to weren't a ban; since the format could potentially be in overrun with midrange decks.

There will always be hard control decks in Legacy as long as Force, Counterspell, Brainstorm, STP, and any number of other cards are legal.

Mostly those cards feed Midrange and Tempo decks. Miracles is literally the only exception.

[barcode]

Wow. Dude wants to turn Legacy into powered up Modern (he even called his proposal a Modern style overhaul). Frankly he can suck my Tabernacle.

Shhh it's okay. He forgot about Ghost Quarter. Fools will still not play basic lands.

Just to spite him I will definitely play Lands tonight at FNM.

[Crimhead]

Caleb has a clear agenda. Kill of his most hated archetypes and give a boost to midrange and combo decks which aren't running blue.

[Dice_Box]

Caleb has a clear agenda. Kill of his most hated archetypes and give a boost to midrange and combo decks which aren't running blue.

Then why kill Lands?

[Crimhead]

Then why kill Lands?

Because he Hates prison decks and Lands preys on midrange?

At lest he is honest about his wants, his reasons and his acknowledgement that his views are unpopular ones.

Sadly his views are very popular - just not among Legacy players. That's why Modern and Standard are the way they are. Things will only get worse as more and more of the player base will have started post newb world order. Hopefully WotC keeps the format pure for those who love it. Maybe it's a good thing Legacy is prohitively expensive and WotC ate not aggressively marketing it.

[sjmcc13]

Then why kill Lands?

There is always collateral damage...

[Crimhead]

There is always collateral damage...

Dude wants to ban Depths. That's targeting Lands directly. Clearly he hates the deck.

Also, his notion that Wastelands is needed to keep Depths in check is laughable. And, Post & Depths are bad, but Cradle is just fine? A lot of personal bias going on there.

[Zombie]

Yeah, I was like "fairer format, so Force is worse, and fast combo crippled? Time to jam half a banlist in green >:)"