Even before settling on a particular build, it is important to understand the general concepts of Storm boarding. Something like: don't board out cantrips against Decks with discard, don't board in potentially dead cards against decks that could let them stranded in your hand, and so on and so forth, also things such as "counterboarding": opponent boards out removal, you bring in Xantid against Canadian for example.Originally Posted by Bittemommy
2nd Ad Nauseam is a solid way to go. I've tried it this month and it played out decently.
Here is my most recent list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19061&iddeck=144773
Last edited by CabalTherapy; 12-27-2015 at 06:43 AM.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
Wouldn't that Xantid thing be far saner against BUG than Bolt.dec?
Please explain Vs what kind of decks we need 2 chains/truth?
I am going to try some things out. But you play a Grim tutor over de Petition. Interesting. How about the Bayou mainboard. Is it really good, or what about a Badlands?
Seems like Cabaltherapy liked my aproach on echoing. And good job! My mkm deck and sb and yours seems really alike. Thats cool^^
You board them in against:
Mud
Chalice loam
Lands
Elves
Burn.
Echoing is specialy good against lands bouncing 2 speheres. Elves bouncing double deathrite. Loam bouncing tegg or so to have combo out with chalice on one.
Against burn chain is better. And against mud depends on what your opp has. Against chalice is better echoing. Against lodestone its better chain.
Definitely not. BUG attacks us from different angles, whereas RUG usually relies on counterspells and mana denial. If you board in Xantid against BUG you are running the risc of having no cards in hand but a useless insect on the table, which becomes: cc1: discard a card: you get a senseless 0/1 dude with flying. If you bring in Xantid against RUG you have the chance to hit them cold and leave their Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms stranded in their hands. That'd be the case of "counterboarding": you bring in a creature against a "Bolt.dec" but where are the bolts post-board?!! This idea comes from Sloshy with whom I've talked about this method and it works very well.
Well, you have to have my complete board in mind. I don't run DoN or Massacre, so Chain becomes an important out against hatebears. Therefore, I decided to add 1 Chain to the party. At other events, I'd probably go with DoN and without Chain but here it served me good.
I don't like Petition for reasons already stated in the last pages by other people. For me, Petition is still a cc5 tutor and Grim proved itself in numerous sitautions a match winner. Since my SB contains quite a few green spells, I usually go
with Bayou over Badlands but I can see reasons behind running Badlands main and Bayou side.
Yes, I switched one Chain to Truth, which is much more flexible in various situations. Thanks. Gratulations on your awesome results in Legacy as well as in Modern. Yes :)
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
Oke great, I am going to buy a Bayou and trade some Flooded strand for Misty Rainforest. But I am still searching for the right build in my hands. The Grim Tutor is both great and expensive. But I quit like the build with two Past in Flames. And like it has been said before, it depends on the right deck with the right player. But I am new, so I will try both builds. But Grim like proxie 😁
I see most of recent lists run six discard spells maindeck, against the popular seven this deck used to have. I ask the reason behind this change, since I lost a lot of games due to having everything ready but the lone discard to get through force of will.
If you play a counterproof wincon. Like 2nd tendrills or 2nd pif you can play 6 discards. Also petitiom can get a discard spell. So you use this kind of card like a discard spell. Because of its naturas for of fighting counters.
I had a bit of trouble understanding what some of you have said, so if I'm misinterpreting what you've said, I apologize in advance.
Congratulations on your finishes, guys! Great to see so many people and deck variants hitting the top 4. I'm still newbing it up, but I feel like I'm learning more and more.
[EDIT: FYI, I've been facing a lot of fast decks that can put the hurt on quickly.]
Togores, I think you're right that a second PiF is really, really useful, but I'm not enthusiastic about playing only four tutors. I've been running a singleton PiF, a singleton Dark Petition, and a maindeck Empty. Here's the relevant part of my list:
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Dark Petition
1x Tendrils of Agony
I'll concede that PiF is, by miles, the strongest card in the deck, but I keep finding that cantrips alone aren't enough to ensure I can find a tutor (or, I guess, a Tendrils/Empty) without a fifth tutor in the main. Grim and Petition are both much less useful than Infernal, but I haven't had much luck outlasting opponents until I can find business with only 4x Infernal. Togores, do you often storm twice in a game? Also, how do you deal with fast decks that put pressure on early? Your list looks like it's great in grindy matchups, but I'm having trouble even with an added tutor in stopping fast kills.
I'm sticking with Petition for the time being, both for budgetary concerns and because I've had very few situations in which I thought Grim would be a better card. I mentioned before why hitting Petition off of AdN is usually better than hitting Grim, and I think we're in a better spot if someone's trying to clock us if we topdeck Petition. With that having been said, I feel like running six tutors starts to push the limits of what the deck can do. Topdecking a second or third tutor is often the last thing we want to do, and that's why I cut back to one Petition from two. CabalTherapy, can you give some examples of games in which Grim was crucial? Looks fine against slow decks and lockouts, but it feels like a pretty risky card against fast opponents.
I guess the best way to put it is that PiF is really vulnerable in spite of its power, and even if it's the strongest card in the deck, I'm not sure a second one would be better than another tutor or goblins galore. Petition has the same problem: it's really good, but I don't think there's room for a second one in the deck. I've been having problems with speedy opponents, and I haven't found PiF to be helpful against them, but I've got a second one in my sideboard for slower matchups.
I'm still a fan of running Empty in the maindeck. It's pretty terrible after turn 3, but not only does it let us go off at, say, storm 5-6, it also doesn't use the graveyard. It's forced a lot of turn-2 concessions from opponents when I've played it, and it goes very well with Cabal Therapy. I'm running a Badlands to help support it, but I may switch it out for a second Island to protect against Wasteland because I haven't had much trouble getting the red mana for Empty. I feel like it's good to have either a second PiF or a second Petition in the sideboard for matchups where goblins aren't helpful. Anybody feel similarly? Differently?
Shaman, it's interesting to hear that you've been having trouble because you don't find enough discard. I'm thinking about going down to six discards maindeck because I find them too often when I'm looking for business. I keep getting to the point that I'm a turn or two away from dying, and a single card away from comboing out, and I just keep topdecking lands and discard until I die. I find that, if my opponent's holding Force, I usually can get through it by just waiting to find one more spell for redundancy. Against a clock, though, you're right that an extra discard spell is pretty useful. I think running sideboard hate cards may be a better option, though. [EDIT: what I deleted here didn't really make any sense.] When I can get my hands on it, I'm going to start running Rain of Filth instead of my third Duress, but I'm probably going to keep the Duress in my sideboard.
Bittemommy, I'm really not sure what the best 15th land is to use. (N.B.: Trop is necessary, so I'm not counting that one; I'm talking about Island versus Bayou versus Badlands.) I don't really like either Badlands or Bayou that much. Neither produces blue mana, which is more important than black mana to have in multiples from what I've seen. But with that said, I feel like red mana is actually really important to have, so I've been keeping Badlands for the time being and putting Trop in the sideboard.
So my sideboard is a mess right now, but here's what it looks like:
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Disfigure
2x Dread of Night
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Tropical Island
1x Past in Flames
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Empty the Warrens
I'm thinking about switching out Carpet and maybe PiF or Hurkyl's for Echoing Truth. It's stellar, but I've only run one in the 75 before, and it never showed up. Glad to hear that people have been getting a lot of use out of it: it's a great card, and it's one that can solve a lot of problems when it shows up. I think two would be great, but I'm not sure what to cut. Dread of Night has been useful before, but rarely have I found it to be as good as it sounds, especially with only two in the 'board. Carpet looks great, but I don't feel like I've been getting much mileage out of it. May just be that it often doesn't show up because there are only two. Hurkyl's would be great, but I also never seem to find it in matchups in which it's good. Xantid is out of my list because it has only helped me once, and I got really lucky because my opponent Forced it and I cantripped into a natural Tendrils I wouldn't have been able to pull off without the extra Storm count.
I'm hoping to get some more practice in because I think one of the problems I've been having is that I don't see the cards show up enough to gauge how useful they are.
Usualy pif serves as a ritual when drawn naturaly or a tutor if you used one to copy a ritual or discard.
Im not often without a tutor. Im quite good at getting max value of my cantrips.
Also ritual + cabal + led + pif with 2-3 cabntrips in grave usualy is enought to find tutor.
I dislike empty. Just didnt wons the game. To many times it got ourraced.
Also my deck is quite fast. You play rain + 4 cabal. That makes your cabal get treshhold really really fast.
Thanks a lot for the information!
I've got another question about cantrips. I ask primarily because I'm still learning how the deck works. If you play Ponder and find, say, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, and Duress, would you keep those on top or shuffle them? What about finding Ponder, Sea, and Duress? I've had a rough time figuring out how to use Ponders the best, especially when I cantrip into another cantrip and one or two other cards I don't need. Again, I've not got a lot of experience with "legit" Legacy decks, and in a deck like Dredge or All Spells I've had to assume the worst if I can't find what I need in the first couple of turns. So though I know how useful and powerful cantrips (especially Brainstorm) are, I'm pretty clumsy with them at this point. Thank you in advance for any input!
In large part I think you're right about Empty. I've noticed that it tends to win games against the players who either aren't as good at playing the format or whose decks are just really vulnerable to fast creatures (e.g., Pox or Maverick). I said before, and I'll say again, that it feels like a "training wheels" card. Really useful when it works, though, so I'm keeping it for the time being. Once I get better with the deck I might switch it out with a second PiF.
Also, I totally never noticed that line regarding Rain of Filth. I'm going to keep that in mind, and it makes me want to find a copy as quickly as I can. Thanks again!
Also, MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Hi to all.
I'm playing this decklist:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cabal Therapy
I've obtained good results with this list.
My dilema is the number of Dark Petitions. I'm looking good players playing 2. My dilema is if compenses to deteriorate Ad Nauseam to have a more compact and rapid decklist.
Speaking with good players, they consider Ad Nauseam a draw engine, stoping with 7 life and winning in the next turn. But not always is possible.
For this reason I play this decklist. But I'm not sure.
Probably I need to play much more the list to see if really it compensates me to play 2 Petitions.
Opinions?
P.D: In the 2 Past in Flames decklists, I like to play 2 or 3 Preordains. The cantrips with Past in Flames are other engine
Thanks for contributing!
How has Bayou been working out for you? Also, how's the Duress/Therapy split? Personally I prefer having four Therapies at all times, but I'm also running Empty in my main and I don't like that Duress can't hit creatures. A preliminary observation is that you've got two green sources maindeck but only one red source. Is there a specific reason for this? I haven't had a lot of success with green sideboard cards against anything but Miracles, and that's an uphill battle as it is. Most other decks against which green would look useful run Wasteland, so I can see the merit in a list with Bayou and Tropical, but I feel like Wasteland hits our maindeck red cards just as hard, and we usually need one to combo. Have you tried Badlands instead of Bayou?
Often that's the best you can hope to do, but that's still a pretty risky play. The opponent can still Thoughtseize the one card we need to pull off the combo, or push us below the point we can fetch, Probe, etc. Keep in mind that there are decks against which you can afford to go below seven. It gets pretty dangerous to do that, but it can be done.
The real dilemma is whether having a third Preordain or a fifteenth land will do you more good than having an extra 4-5cmc business spell. I've been running five cards that cost 4-5 (same as your list but with added Empty the Warrens) and I'm still not pushing AdN too far very often except in goldfishing. Useful as the card is, I feel like it's often the last resort unless we can cast it in the first turn or two of the game.
To answer your question more directly, though, if you're running a second Dark Petition, it should probably replace the third Preordain or the land, and I wouldn't worry too much about Ad Nauseam as long as you don't just jam it every time it comes up. An eleventh cantrip is only likely to slow down the deck, and Preordain's the least useful one we've got.
Have you tried running 1x Petition, 1x Empty in the maindeck? It's working pretty well for me so far. Empty doesn't synergize with much in the deck (N.B.: except Cabal Therapy), but it nets some really fast kills and it sidesteps graveyard hate and Leyline. The other possibility is to run a second Past in Flames. Either Empty or PiF will also save you one life off of Ad Nauseam, but Empty doesn't really work with AdN. The final possibility, which I would recommend if you're content to keep either 15 lands or 3 Preordains, would be to run Rain of Filth. I'm looking to find that card because it's a ninth ritual and a Threshold enabler, which I think would be much better than an eleventh cantrip.
On an unrelated note, I went 3-0 at the local on Sunday! Matchups were Shardless, ≥12 Post, and Retreatiquary. Lost one game against Shardless when the opponent opened with something like Deathrite, Hymn, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Deathrite; and lost against Retreatiquary when he opened game 2 with a Leyline of Sanctity and I couldn't break it in time. A couple of lucky wins, too, like topping Dark Petition in game 3 vs Shardless with no cards in my hand and a full graveyard. Was a great day, but I think I got lucky. 12 Post player drew a hideously powerful hand in game 2 (≥2 Spheres and a Chalice) but he only had a single Dust Bowl and found no other lands.
I noticed the big difference between this tournament and my earlier ones was that I didn't make any colossal errors. Once I probably should've Brainstormed but used Disfigure instead, but otherwise there were no "I CAN'T COUNT!" moments. Baby steps...
And Empty the Warrens is still doing work. I'm not relying on it nearly as much as I have in the past, but I like to have one on-hand for a lot of matchups. Anybody really strongly in favor of 2x Petition instead of 1x Petition, 1x Empty?
For me they don't really compete for a slot.
Empty competes with Ad Nauseam (or potentially with the 1st DP in a list with AdN).
The 2nd DP competes with cards like Preordain, Top, and the 7th discard spell for me. In EtW lists I often run 2 DP, whereas in AdN lists I seldom do.
Scherer does run 2 DP's and AdN, but his card choices have baffled me since the beginning, since there often seems to be some inherent anti-synergy in his card choices.
- He often runs Top, which makes cutting a land somewhat odd (explainable if you're playing a lot of grindy decks without wasteland though, such as Miracles. He can also board up to 15 lands which makes it less strange.). [No SDT in his latest list anymore]
- Running less lands, but more basics. This is especially weird given the earlier choice is explained by facing fewer wasteland decks.
- Running Ad Nauseam, and upping the Dark Petition count to 2.
That said, he's been wrecking the US with his lists. But that's probably more because of his playskill, and because minor deck differences hardly matter, but still.
Collected some data about my matches this year. With some matches still missing (forgot the matchup f.e.) I'm about 77% for the year (80% DTT era, 68% post-ban) over 90 matches (have 124 total I think, with about 15 ID's). 80%+ against Delver, Blade and combo (mainly because of Omnitell pre-ban). 73% against Miracles/Shardless/Grixis Control (ironically Shardless was the worst, #samplesize). Against non-blue I have 67%, but the category should be split in two. Against prison I've been scoring just under 50/50 overall, and versus decks such as Nic Fit and Jund the percentages are very high obviously..
The conclusions are nothing new really; ANT destroys Delver, Blade, and Midrange decks. In a meta full of crap like MUD and Loam you'd rather pick something else.
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
That's quite impressive Jamie!;) What list are u playing now if I may ask?
I'm running 1DT 2 Preordain 1 Rain of filth atm without Empty MD.. Still play one in the sideboard though.. I see some pple cutting it entirely but I like having one atleast.
How many of you play ANT on MTGO? How's the meta? Is Miracles over-represented? My local scene is so up and down and I'm thinking about biting the bullet and buying into online --just trying to get an idea of how Storm fares on there. Anything different about the lists compared to paper?
Why play a Badlands? I only play 1 red card in main deck and other red card in sideboard. And I can play them with Lotus Petal or LED. (I can't play Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers with LED).
The second green source for me is indispensable. I play a lot of green cards in sideboard and I side decays vs Wastelands decks. Also to have the best colour configuration.
I'm not Empty the Warrens fan. EMpty the Warrens compete with the Ad Nauseam slot, no with the Dark Petition slot.
I prefer play 15 lands in main deck with two green sources (classic configuration).
Yesterday I win a FNM with my decklist, with -1 Preordain +1 Dark Petition.
2-1 Burn (Tutor Chain, Past in Flames)
2-0 Burn (Past in Flames, Past in Flames)
2-1 Infect (Ad Nauseam, Ad Nauseam)
2-0 Omnitell (Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames)
Vs Infect matchups I played Ad Nauseam with 16 life and 3 and 4 black mana back up (very favorable condition).
Vs. Omnitell I played Ad Nauseam as a draw engine and kill in the next turn.
This is my performance with my decklist (3 preordain, 1 Dark Petition) in a big tournament:
R1. 2-1 ANT
R2: 2-1 Jund
R3. 2-0 Bant
R4: 1-2 Team America
R5: 2-0 Team America
R6: 2-0 Burn
R7: 2-1 ANT
R8: 1-2 ANT
R9: 2-0 Agro Loam
7-2 (11 or 12 don't remember 269 persons)
Cool! Nais result man! I contacted Caleb, the master, Scherer. And asked him some questions about the petition. And why we should run 2 maindeck.
The conversation:
Me:
Yo Caleb, thanks for the reaction. I am still searching the right way to play. We have some discussion going on about maindecks. Likewise two dark petition, like your build, of two past in flames and 0 dark petition. Or two Tendrils, it is still a puzzle for me. Everyone has an other opinion about the decks. What are your choices in the maindeck, and why. The majority of players told me the 2nd dark petition is a nonbo with Ad nauseam. The lifeloss is gigantic, and would Grim not be better? Or just play 4 tutors and run a sensei's top, or one of the options here above? I would like to here this from a pro player. I have been following your progress for quit some while. The wins and your understanding about the deck is great, in my opinion. The plays in the Player Championship, wauw. You wrecked Jessup, I was laughing out loud. Great! But I hope to hear from you. Greetings from Holland 😉. Koen
Caleb:
Koen, Well as you know I am a huge proponent of running 2 Dark petition and 1 past in flames, 1 tendrils. My reasoning for this over the other configurations which you mentioned is that you are at the core a tutor based deck and the vast majority of the time your kill path involves at least 1 tutor. Now by running 2 dark petition you have 6 "2 mana" tutors which if you do the math gives you a much higher chance of seeing a tutor in the top 10 cards of your library (including opening hand and liklyhood of seeing a ponder/branstorm which show 3 more). The other plans people run definitely have merit but i want to have the most well oiled killing machine game 1. As for the argument against the 2nd petition because of ad naus. I agree it does make your ad nauseous worse but i view ad naus as your eject button for when nothing else works instead of a good game plan. Plus I also view it as a card you can cast and pass turn mitigating some of the risk as well. Grim tutor would be a consideration but it actually costs more life with ad naus, since you have to pay 3 life after casting it as well. Thanks! That match was super fun, Im glad a
Me:
True that, but with alot of DRS in the meta, the petition seems alot weaker. How many Ad nauseam would you play in your 75?
The way you think about the deck interests me alot, that Ad nauseam is a way to go when all other gameplan options are out of reach. Is it not a better choice then to run two PiF instead of the Ad nauseam maindeck? Just one in the sb? Or is this a statement of crap.. Nondeless the Grim is worse then petition. Thanks for your answer! You got any tips and trics for me, let me know. I will keep following your progress in the SCG opens and other legacy events. Thanks again man, I really appreciate it. It show karakter when a pro respons. 👍🏻
Caleb:
That is a fair point. DRS is only really a problem for the spell mastery on dark petition when it's turn 2-3. After that you will have too many for DRS to keep up. Also DRS will break up a past in flames line regardless of whether you are using infernal or petition. I only play 1 ad naus in my 75. Running it exclusively in the SB was something I tried at first (right after petition was printed) but having something in your deck what operates independent of the graveyard is needed I feel after running many games without.
Your question is definitely not a bad one as I asked it myself too lol. Well as for tips and tricks I don't know what to really say as you seem like a proficient pilot who knows all the general things but one thing is never stop goldfishing. I still do it all the time. It's the only way to keep the storm skills sharp I've found. You are quite welcome! I was glad to help. If you have any future questions feel free to message me!
At first he was a great man just to response to me. Great guy! But after this conversation I was thinking about it, it is a great build. But what now if we just totaly cut the Petition and play the 2nd Past in Flames and a Sensei's top? How would that work. I am a fan of Petition, not just it gives me resiliance, but it is a 5th and 5th tutor. And like Caleb says the Ad Nauseam must be a way of winning when no other option is open. It looks like that is not the case when I am playing. I keep on trying to play that way, it gives me alot of insight. What do you guys think about it?
The list I am playing right now:
Maindeck:
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past In Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard:
3 Dread of Night
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Xantis Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cabal Therapy
this resonates with my sentiments 100%, only my win% is -10% in each era in twice that many matches...
////
"...never stop goldfishing" - I like this Calebs advice
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