[Deck] 12 Post

[Zotmaster]

All the new cards have stirred my interest in this deck, and reading through I wanted to point out that Ad Nauseam is an instant, so don't expect to counter it.

Good catch, thank you. Sorry about that.

[Darkenslight]

Good catch, thank you. Sorry about that.

IT does, however, counter Past in Flames, which cuts off a potential win that way.

[maCHOOga]

IT does, however, counter Past in Flames, which cuts off a potential win that way.

More importantly it counters infernal tutor! Ad Neaseum is a 1of in ANT. 95% of the time if you just counter their infernal tutor, you will win. Just float Wail on top of your deck and get them! Of course, it won't save you if they turn 1 you.

[TheBoozeCube]

More importantly it counters infernal tutor! Ad Neaseum is a 1of in ANT. 95% of the time if you just counter their infernal tutor, you will win. Just float Wail on top of your deck and get them! Of course, it won't save you if they turn 1 you.

It also counters Cabal Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize, so you can protect Crop Rotation or Mindbreak Trap.


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[maCHOOga]

Between Warping Wail (finally a Green friendly counterspell that ALSO kills xantid swarm) and spatial contortion (good removal for every non-relic of Progenitus-able creature in the format (perhaps gurmag angler excluding, which is fine), and BOTH of these spells having serious game against infect, one of the last matchups that have been skirting a heavy green focus hate build, I might be completely on the Mono Green /w splash (almost certainly white) train.

Rock, assuming I'm sticking with the UG "stock" build, do you think warping wail is worth testing maindeck over the pair of flusterstorms? It's a heck of a lot more versatile, but flusterstorm is so good!

[cin]

Hi Guys,

I am thinking of trying out this build of UG Post.
Can you give me your insights and Suggestions?

Some Questions:
-Stifles should be Trickbind?
-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?
-is Force of will good on this deck?
-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?
-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

Current Deck List:

[LANDS - 25]
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

[CREATURES - 6]
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan

[INSTANTS - 15]
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation

[SORCERIES - 2]
2 Show and Tell

[ARTIFACTS - 12]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

[SIDE BOARD]
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
2 Elephant Grass
1 Crop Rotation
1 Show and Tell
1 Maze of Ith
2 Flusterstorm


Thank you very much!

[Zotmaster]

Some Questions:
-Stifles should be Trickbind?

There's no definitive answer, but I think so. The fact that Trickbind can't be conventionally countered and also defeats Chalice of the Void on one is really useful. It also has corner case usages like stopping a Sneak & Skill player from activating Sneak Attack or Griselbrand again if they ever pass priority to you.

-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?

One at the minimum if you can tutor for it. More realistically, I think two is better. In my mono-green list, I run three, and TheBoozeCube runs four, I think: our lists are pretty similar.

-is Force of will good on this deck?

It certainly can be. Only having 14 blue spells in your list kind of worries me but you might be able to pull it off. I wouldn't just have two Flusterstorm in the board: you probably want three or four because the Storm matchup is awful, and in the worst case, you can still counter spells through Chalice of the Void on one or Counterbalance in a pinch.

-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?

This is harder to answer. As far as Expedition Map goes, it's easier to justify three if you can tutor for it. One of the many nice things about running four is you can often easily get away with shaving one in favor of a sideboard card in Games 2 and 3. For Crop Rotation, the right number is a little harder. When I was running multiple colors, running 4 felt really bad because they would often stick in my hand: I felt the consequences for having one countered were more dire because of the importance of the colored sources. In my mono-green list, I run 6 Forests, 3 fetch lands, and my only green cards of consequence are 4 Crop Rotation and 4 Ancient Stirrings pre-board. I do have Primeval Titan, but I can always Map or Crop for a Cavern of Souls if I really want to. Because of that, I can use Crop with almost reckless abandon because as long as I have one colored source, I can cast the green spells I need.

-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

Trinket Mage allows a more comprehensive hate package and also can gain you some virtual life by either getting in the way of a creature or eating a removal spell. It allows you to cater your sideboard to whatever you need most: Chalice of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Engineered Explosives are all on the table. You're probably also already running Candelabra of Tawnos, Expedition Map, Sensei's Divining Top, and Pithing Needle anyway, and Mage gets all of them, too.

[deadlock]

-Stifles should be Trickbind?

Depends on your general mana curve and the total number of both. Also consider the new Kozilek's counter ability. Currently I try a 2/2 split. Trickbind is more versatile, but also a bit clunky and I am already having 4 cmc 2 cards with Warping Wail in my deck. The 2 Stifles complement my 3 Crop Rotations as a 1 mana 'answer' to Wasteland. So normally I would run 2-4 Trickbinds and 0-2 Stifles.

-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?

If we assume Ug(w) Post then I would say 0-2. CoT is an accelerant, which can do broken things, but it is less powerful than Show and Tell in my opinion. Going up to 4 SnT was one of the major evolutionary steps of the deck. You have to adjust your creature base accordingly, by upping your threats a bit. 2 more creatures is fine. I am testing whether I want 2 new Kozis or 1 Kozi and 1 Platinum Emperion currently. Non-blue builds rely more on CoT obviously. CoT has the benefit that it can 'wash' colorless mana to colored (and now the opposite if u wish ;). Finally I would say run 0-2 in any blue based build.

-is Force of will good on this deck?

I agree with Zotmaster here. Our blue count is a bit to low, especially if you consider post board scenarios. Also consider that FoW is actually very strong in this deck if we make it work, because we dont have / want specialized answers, but general ones. Counters, Stifle effects, Warping Wail like cards. As we have a more powerful win than e.g. Miracles or the deck has a combo aspect and is only partially a control deck (depending on the build). Another important point why FoW is great, is that we can interact without having blue mana available. It is a funny contradiction. One the side we dont cant push up the colored cards to much, because of the manabase constrains, on the other hand if we manage to get critical mass, we are somewhat relieved from this constraint with a card like FoW. Testing CR'less builds is one way to try 'mono' blue FoW build.

-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?

I'd say the default number of CR in Ug(w) is 3. I could see that this number gets lowered in the future for Ug builds, as we can always up the Stifle / Trickbind count, which makes FoW more potent, but we lose the instant graveyard hate option. Very interesting possibilities for future builds arise here.

-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

I agree with Zotmaster. It has to be evaluated with the sideboard / trinkets you bring in, in mind. Like every tutor it adds virtual copies of the cards it can find. E.g. the deck relies heavily on Senseis Top and simply having access to more copies of it, is already good. However the general powerlevel of the card, compared with the Legacy standards is a tiny bit too low (just compare it to the ultra powerful Show and Tell, we also run and which has the same manacost). Finally I woulds say, some builds 'require' it, but I am happy if I can drop him in a build.

PS: My reasoning is always based on my inclination towards heavy blue builds / making the deck as blue as possible, while keeping in the strain of that many colorless lands in mind. So I play Ug, Ugw and 'mono' U post.

[TheBoozeCube]

Some Questions:
-Stifles should be Trickbind?
-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?
-is Force of will good on this deck?
-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?
-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

Personally, I think that more Candelabras are always better. In addition to being an insanely powerful accelerant, they provide a hedge against Wasteland; even a single Candelabra allows you to do so much more with fewer Posts in play. And they're even better in multiples.

I would suggest 4:4. The deck's land toolbox is one of the things that makes it so powerful, especially with Crop Rotation. Being able to take out a graveyard or find Karakas at instant speed gets you a lot of blowouts.


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[TheBoozeCube]

I pulled a Kozilek at the midnight prerelease. I managed to cast it in literally every single game after round 1. Went 2-2.

Initial impression: I was vey underwhelmed by Kozilek. Granted, it's limited, but menace is not even close to a replacement for annihilator, and his draw trigger felt meh at best compared to original. Even in Limited, I had several cards in hand when I cast him, so he drew perhaps one more card than original Koz. He also got bounced twice, and since he had already just refilled my hand, the second casting trigger was weak. He will definitely not be a ticket to valuetown with Karakas. He's probably not worth playing except with S&T, and only to the extent his countermagic vs meta fits the variety of CMCs in your build.


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[Pdingo]

theboozecube

Are you serious? Limited and legacy isn't the same thing... Of course s annihilator 4 better in limited lol
New Kozilek is alot better. I mean how much do you bounce kozilek in 100 games with karakas??
Maybe 3- 4 times..
Snt inti kozilek is just bad..He can't draw cards if you put him on the field like this..

[oracL3]

Hi guys,i'm pretty new with this deck and recently i picked up the C/g build of this deck for some practice. About the sideboarding there is some where a comprensive guide to how sideboard? I was reading last and initial pages of this forum But i didn't find Very much. Thank u in advance for any help :-)

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[Hopo]

Snt inti kozilek is just bad..He can't draw cards if you put him on the field like this..

IMO that's a very wrong angle to look from. You want to play Kozilek because of the countering ability, not card draw. Also, in order for the ability to actually do anything you need to put Koz down asap, which basically means Show and Tell. I don't know how others have thought of this, but to me the only neo-Kozilek build that makes sense starts with 4 Show and tell + 4 Kozilek. Without Show and Tell, the countering hardly matters as Kozilek lands way too late. This is the one deck that doesn't need anymore help with the late game. Quite the opposite: I'm not sure is turn 3 fast enough. At least the UG builds have tools to start disrupting starting from turn one.

Maybe a green 4-Candle build could also squeeze it out before it's too late but I have my reservations.

[TheBoozeCube]

theboozecube

Are you serious? Limited and legacy isn't the same thing... Of course s annihilator 4 better in limited lol
New Kozilek is alot better. I mean how much do you bounce kozilek in 100 games with karakas??
Maybe 3- 4 times..
Snt inti kozilek is just bad..He can't draw cards if you put him on the field like this..

I'll agree that Limited and Legacy are very different formats. To be fair, I wrote that post at 5 am after I got home from the prerelease. Even so, I still don't think new Koz holds a candle to old Koz.

As far as annihilator goes, I think it's hard to overestimate how good it is and how much losing it hurts this card. Annihilator is arguably the most powerful and unfair creature keyword mechanic that has ever been printed. It doesn't even have to connect to win you the game; just a single declaration of attack is usually enough to tip the scales overwhelmingly in your favor. Your opponent is going to lose a large chunk of its board and, therefore, their chances of coming back. Annihilator is basically raw card advantage every time you attack. Menace is just mediocre evasion. If your opponent isn't at 12 or less, they will often be able to just take the hit and kill you on the swing back.

The interaction with Karakas doesn't come up all the time, but it comes up enough for me to matter. And when it does, sometimes it matters a lot because it's when I tend to be mana flooded and need to find a way to stabilize or win the game immediately, like digging for a board wipe or Emrakul. More frequently, however, I'm just using Karakas to protect Kozilek from StP or Lili. The extra card advantage makes up for the tempo loss from missing the next attack step (and annihilator trigger).

S&T into Koz seems to be the best thing going for him. You don't draw, but you do get him down quickly enough that you probably still have enough cards left to activate his countermagic to fight combo. Even in my build with 4x Candelabras, I'm not confident that I can ramp fast enough to reliably hardcast him by turn 3, when a deck like Storm often goes off. Obviously, he's fine to cast as the game goes on — and unless it's a combo matchup, I'm sure UG will favor S&T into PrimeTime — but I don't see a compelling reason to play him over old Koz's annihilator unless you can use him to fight combo. And I just don't see that as realistic in non-S&T builds.


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[mykatdied]

I'll agree that Limited and Legacy are very different formats. To be fair, I wrote that post at 5 am after I got home from the prerelease. Even so, I still don't think new Koz holds a candle to old Koz.

As far as annihilator goes, I think it's hard to overestimate how good it is and how much losing it hurts this card. Annihilator is arguably the most powerful and unfair creature keyword mechanic that has ever been printed. It doesn't even have to connect to win you the game; just a single declaration of attack is usually enough to tip the scales overwhelmingly in your favor. Your opponent is going to lose a large chunk of its board and, therefore, their chances of coming back. Annihilator is basically raw card advantage every time you attack. Menace is just mediocre evasion. If your opponent isn't at 12 or less, they will often be able to just take the hit and kill you on the swing back.

The interaction with Karakas doesn't come up all the time, but it comes up enough for me to matter. And when it does, sometimes it matters a lot because it's when I tend to be mana flooded and need to find a way to stabilize or win the game immediately, like digging for a board wipe or Emrakul. More frequently, however, I'm just using Karakas to protect Kozilek from StP or Lili. The extra card advantage makes up for the tempo loss from missing the next attack step (and annihilator trigger).

S&T into Koz seems to be the best thing going for him. You don't draw, but you do get him down quickly enough that you probably still have enough cards left to activate his countermagic to fight combo. Even in my build with 4x Candelabras, I'm not confident that I can ramp fast enough to reliably hardcast him by turn 3, when a deck like Storm often goes off. Obviously, he's fine to cast as the game goes on — and unless it's a combo matchup, I'm sure UG will favor S&T into PrimeTime — but I don't see a compelling reason to play him over old Koz's annihilator unless you can use him to fight combo. And I just don't see that as realistic in non-S&T builds.


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I second this sentiment for pretty much every reason described here. The only comment I could add is that in mono green we are definitely more likely to hard cast him early. My build is based more off mana ramp and I have had games where I was able to cast Kozilek turn 3 on the play against storm. Having this guy would have obviously been much better than old Kozilek as I'm less likely to die passing the turn having the new one on the field with his ability ready to go. Adding sphere of resistance and other hate cards can certainly make it more likely to cast this guy in time and be able to actually stop combo in its tracks. Of course that is only If I haven't been forced to discard him to a cabal therapy, etc.

[TheBoozeCube]

I second this sentiment for pretty much every reason described here. The only comment I could add is that in mono green we are definitely more likely to hard cast him early. My build is based more off mana ramp and I have had games where I was able to cast Kozilek turn 3 on the play against storm. Having this guy would have obviously been much better than old Kozilek as I'm less likely to die passing the turn having the new one on the field with his ability ready to go. Adding sphere of resistance and other hate cards can certainly make it more likely to cast this guy in time and be able to actually stop combo in its tracks. Of course that is only If I haven't been forced to discard him to a cabal therapy, etc.

Yep. It's not that mono-G can't cast Koz on T3, it's that we can't do it consistently. It basically requires a nut draw, not something we can rely on. (And that's not even factoring in the tempo used up to tutor with Eye if he's not in your opener.)

I'm actually even less confident with him going forward, as I'll be testing replacing all of my Explorations with Warping Wail.


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[mykatdied]

Yep. It's not that mono-G can't cast Koz on T3, it's that we can't do it consistently. It basically requires a nut draw, not something we can rely on. (And that's not even factoring in the tempo used up to tutor with Eye if he's not in your opener.)

I'm actually even less confident with him going forward, as I'll be testing replacing all of my Explorations with Warping Wail.


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Definitely not the most likely scenario for sure, I agree. Warping wail seems interesting. I'll likely have to test a few

[Zotmaster]

I tweaked my list a little bit, cutting my Titans for another Nulamog, another Kozilek, and a pair of Karn Liberated. It actually felt pretty good since all of my threats are now colorless and each threat can win the game by itself; that and Karn covers things Ugin can't, at a lower mana cost than Nulamog. That having been said, Karn may still not be right, but I think the big takeaway for me is that it seems very possible that the correct number of Nulamogs is "more than one".

[mykatdied]

I don't think I can get behind fully cutting titans, but I can see why you might want to do it. I would like the idea of cutting spells and going more in on threats to make your top decks more threatening for your opponent once you hit 10 mana or so. It also can alleviate the strain on having to find your threats when you have the mana. I have considered this approach before but ultimately nixed it since I am comfortable with my list as is.

[Zotmaster]

I don't think I can get behind fully cutting titans, but I can see why you might want to do it. I would like the idea of cutting spells and going more in on threats to make your top decks more threatening for your opponent once you hit 10 mana or so. It also can alleviate the strain on having to find your threats when you have the mana. I have considered this approach before but ultimately nixed it since I am comfortable with my list as is.

The biggest reason for cutting it is because, like BoozeCube, I am currently playing mono-green. Though Titan is still playable, by cutting it I can guarantee every single threat in my deck is both fetchable with Ancient Stirrings and will also win by itself if my opponent can't get rid of it, and each of those threats is at least as hard, if not harder, to get rid of than Titan. It also frees up a slot that would otherwise be filled by Cavern of Souls: it can't protect planeswalkers and the big Eldrazi still get their cast triggers. In UG, I've tried cutting Titan before in many of my brews, and most of the time I've regretted it. I may end up putting Cavern back in post-OGW as I think running a slightly faster deck with some of the smaller Eldrazi might be doable.