I have just edited in this same exact statement :)Originally Posted by Ralf
Replace "chumpblocked with Elves!" with "I cast a random piece of spotremoval" and reread the bit.
The branches it offers you are slower and less powerful than those already available to you, so why bother?
And yes, things like how mana hungry something is are important. Otherwise we'd just be jamming 4 Emrakul & 4 Kozilek and call it a day. But hey, you're The Guy so you know this stuff, right? Things like opportunity cost are made up bullshit people use to sound interesting.
Nice from a turn 2 play to a 15 mana dude, nice reasoning. And let's just ignore the rest of the post, why not.Replaces "chumpblocked with Elves!" with "I cast a random piece of spotremoval" and reread the bit.
The branches it offers you are slower and less powerful than those already available to you, so why bother?
And yes, things like how mana hungry something is are important. Otherwise we'd just be jamming 4 Emrakul & 4 Kozilek and call it a day. But hey, you're The Guy so you know this stuff, right? Things like opportunity cost are made up bullshit people use to sound interesting
I have never said to be The Guy, but if you want I may be Your guy ok?
May I direct you to one of your posts on page 152, good sir?
And on that same page you adressed the following concern:
So it seems that what you're suggesting is something you yourself are against. What's up with that? Some pages ago mana efficiency is a thing but as soon as it conflicts with what you're suggesting it isn't? Could you explain how that works?
What is going on here. Let's drop the d.size competetion and get back to the most play-friendly enviroment this deck usually creates.
@PFire Rhino;
Since your running a build that really pushes your manabase i might think that Primeval Titan is your best game ending bomb. When your able to land PrimeTime you can dig up more lands and go out of control from there. Multiples PFire per turn plus landing everything you draw from there on out.
As for Stormbreath Dragon... It is a monster. But you are right that it would ask to much of your manabase. A while back i played it and found that running SBD effectivly it will demand running at least 2 copies, plus you have to make room for 2 basic mountains so you can make sure you are able to land a SBD after you trigger a Veteran Explorer. And if you do so, then the question is; do you still need/want Siege Rhino?
@Stoneforge Mystic;
Following the logic about Swordsmen Rhino it makes perfect sense to go i.e. 2 SFM and 3 Equip.
As for equip, i would suggest playing Jitte, SoFaI and SoLaS. The last one due to giving your creature protection from white. This is pretty big against plow decks. Next to this, recycling creatures back from your graveyard will overload your opponent, granted your not getting hosed by RiP. And lifegain will pull you the distance.
Playing 3 equipment with CMC =< 3 means you can have added value out of Sun Titan. As a one of it shows up in your lategame where it will take over the game. As said, this will make you weaker vs gravehate, but you gotta try and play thru/around that. But running S.Titan also shouls reduce the fear of Deeding your own board.
That said, my playstyle with SFM is more to force pressure early. I was running 3 SFM plus BS/Jitte. I must add that most of it was around that time UR Treasure Cruise and Burn where all over the place, so landing a BS ASAP was often what you'd want/need. But still being able to pressure with a quick BS/Jitte can be problematic for any matchup outside of combo. If this does not win you the game, then it will provide a smooth transition to the mid-/lategame for Rhino/Sigarda to take over (especially if you still have the equipment on the board).
Playing Jitte into a trap like Elves is something to consider, but is not a reason not to run Jitte. One should know how to dodge the Quiron Range/Wirewood Symbiote tricks and Fetch into Arbor nonsense :-)
The thing i like about SFM is it's ability to pressure early, and become a threat later on. But sometimes it indeed leaves you swords swords and no creatures, or clunky openers or draws.
For now i am not playing SFM and choose a more streamlined version.
@Toxic Waste NicFit (Eldrazi)
Centering the deck more into the game ending bombs seems like the way to go. Personally i think that Fatal's original build is closest to what it should be. At least, it is a very compact build. The suggestion of Echelon to use Fierce Empath is pretty solid as it enables to dig for bombs more easy then with Eye of Ugin alone. Also PrimeTime could be run as a one-off rather then play a full set. Fatal's list also runs Karn Liberated, which is really sweet. That card is basically a better version of Liliana of the Veil. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is optional to. With those cards, do we require to run Diabolic Intent? In the long shot, with Meren and E.Witness one could loop Diabolic Intent, but i guess that's cornercase. The benefit of Fatal's list is that it doesn't actually need to run Wastes mana. And i do not think that the list becomes better with Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper and/or Warping Wail, unless maybe it focusses more on a midrange/aggro plan and drop the comboesque Emrakul finish.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
SFM in Nic Fit works. Period.
I won a tourny with it.
http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=12315 (scroll to mid page)
The real question might be:
"what equipment should you play?"
Here is my reasoning:
1) If you have access to some sweeper MD (Pernicious to name it), Jitte might not be mandatory
2) If you don't have access to sweeper MD, Jitte IS mandatory.
3) From there I would always play at least Batterskull. The raw power of this equipment is too high to not play it:
- a few deck will lose to it, eventually. It has a super super endgame power.
- you CAN race goblin tokens (T2 SFM -> BSK) if you have started
4) If you don't play Jitte, I would certainly test these 2 swords before the others:
- SOFI because on paper it is a true clock + CA (and a spot removal, somehow)
- SOFAF because Nic Fit is by nature weak to combo.
And if you ask me, in a vacuum, Jitte > All.
You are the guy that plays edh trash like Karador and starved rusalka, and you talk about mana consumption of the best white 2 drop in the history of this game. Cool.
I agree with Bob and from now on I'll just ignore you, this is a very friendly thread and I don't think there is space for "you are The Guy" kind of drama. Good bye sir.
I agree with you Ralf, but what about a third equipment? And sobam? Have you personally tested it?
@Bob: solas I don't like, I think it's a weaker sword. Against plow we have thrun, which I now ONLY play in the equipment version. Thrun lets us have protection vs plow and lets us play stronger equipment imo.
And as usual he dodges the question with a smokescreen. GG.
Also, a one time result in a 5 round tournament with a completely different build over 14 months ago equals good in any build? Cool.
On topic: Hurray, Nic Fit. Sparkles, rainbows & unicorns. Let's hope the new set we get gives us some more goodies. Or Veteran Explorers with Dora the Explorer artwork. I would so run that shit.
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php...48#post3997848
Hmmm.
Put your mouth where your money is...
Take a break. Have a cig, or whatever.
We are "all" gentleman, here.
The build in that forum also is a Birthing Pod list where the list being discussed is a "regular" list without Pod. They're still not comparable. Apples and oranges, no matter how many oranges you throw at it.
But yeah, I'm working on it. Your words apply to all builds discussed here, by the way.
I think the biggest benefit to running equips is that Nic fit is filled with creatures with meaningless bodies. 4 vet, some amount of drs, witness, and any number of gsz targets. Equips mean that those creatures need removal. Your point of point kill spells at the creature and now the equipment is worthless doesnt exactly mean anything if the bros they are shooting down are vets and witnesses and such. Those are creatures that would not normally need to be killed but with a jitte or Sofi they do.
Also, equipment was used in the context of rhino. Here it absolutely makes sense. While rhino is certainly a big body at 4/5 it is not always larger than goyf. It also is smaller than angler. Those are 2 fairly played cards.
Sfm itself also lends itself very well to the attrition nature of the deck. You are up a 1/2 while also tutoring for a specific equipment. That 1/2 can be sac fodder for therapy or a body for that equipment.
Agreed with all of these. I think in the sfm dedicated builds, that some number of lingering souls need to be played. that card was printed to play alongside of equipment.
Don't forget that we are one of the only decks that can reliably pay 5 to equip a batterskull. 8/9 trample vigil lifelink Skillerhino. #justmagicalchristmaslandthings
But by playing sfm and molding the deck in such a way, you change from a board control deck into a weird ramp midrange deck. the value is obvious in all builds of nic fit.
Not sure what we want to achieve replacing one of the titans with Fierce Empath - from my point of view Titan is just better in this slot. Let's look closer on few scenerios.@Toxic Waste NicFit (Eldrazi)
Centering the deck more into the game ending bombs seems like the way to go. Personally i think that Fatal's original build is closest to what it should be. At least, it is a very compact build. The suggestion of Echelon to use Fierce Empath is pretty solid as it enables to dig for bombs more easy then with Eye of Ugin alone. Also PrimeTime could be run as a one-off rather then play a full set. Fatal's list also runs Karn Liberated, which is really sweet. That card is basically a better version of Liliana of the Veil. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is optional to. With those cards, do we require to run Diabolic Intent? In the long shot, with Meren and E.Witness one could loop Diabolic Intent, but i guess that's cornercase. The benefit of Fatal's list is that it doesn't actually need to run Wastes mana. And i do not think that the list becomes better with Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper and/or Warping Wail, unless maybe it focusses more on a midrange/aggro plan and drop the comboesque Emrakul finish.
Q: When we want resolve Fierce Empath ?
A: When we have enough mana for bomb which we find from it, without mana we can't cast it.
Q: What targets to find from Fierce Empath ?
A: Primeval Titan and Eldrazi, depends on available mana. Titan gives mana and option with Eye to cast Eldrazi, so in 99% it will be Titan.
Cutting target which we gonna find is just making it slower. For example:
I have mana to cast Titan, I drew Fierce Empath, so I need to wait one turn. to cast it's target. In that turn opponent can additional discard my searched Titan.
Only advantage with running Fierce Empathy is when it's additional to 4 Titans (I think it's enough really with 4 GSZ, it's virtual 4 Titans) is to dodge wasteland, which is quite nice. Let me describe scenerio:
Opponent has wasteland in hand and waiting for our Eye of Ugin, we cast Titan, its etb trigger, we found Clodpost and Eye. Opponent answer with wasteland vs Eye, but he still need to handle 6/6 Trample Titan which will gives a lot of CA, CQ and life. Let's assume that he also has swords to plowshares and kill Titan. Then we have empty board, a lot of mana and Eye of Ugin in graveyard. In this case when we draw GSZ - we already have Eternal Witness to bring back Eye from gaveyard which would be my target from GSZ, even if I would run Fierce Empath I would like to have uncounterable, repeatable way to find Eldrazi's, not just one shot which can be discarded or Stifled.
Conclusion - it's worth only if we want more Titans then 4 MD, cutting Titan to add Firce Empath is not worth, makes deck slower and more vulnerable to discard.
On the other hand I like idea of having more then 4 Titans, 4 GSZ adding Fierce Empath gives us 1 more :-) but finding spot for it will be really hard.
Fatal, it might be, but i am not fully convinced. Running 4 PrimeTime clogs up deckspace. Feels that if you go nore into the NicFit way of treathing creatures rather then the Turbo approach you might just have a smoother play. Empath turns your late game GSZ into Eldrazi. Shouldn't be to hard getting 15-20 mana on the lategame. Testing should be conclusive. I will throw together your list with the empath tweaks in paper for coming weekend.
This. Bonfire does feel right for the deck, except that this does not run Brainstorm/Jacestorm to put the Miracle card back. Maybe a bit to random.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol
So?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I actually love that name, lol.
Also, getting hit by a topdeck/sandbagged Eye of Ugin is a worthwhile risk to the power it provides, I think. You can always opt to not search for the Eye if you're worried about it (or if they have a wasteland just sitting in play waiting for you). They still have to deal with the Primeval Titan and the lands its getting out of your deck. I don't think that Empath is a bad idea per se, but I do think that it suffers (as it usually does) from being a chronically 63rd card or so. It's something that we wouldn't mind, but there's just usually better options than.
From my initial results, Primeval Titan is the best card in the deck, by a lot -- but I don't think that the deck actually wants to run more than 1 copy of him...maybe one more in the board with Wishes, but the more I've thought about them, the more I've started to think that while the deck would like to have the Wishes, the space constraints (both main and side) might just be too much.
I'll cast my lot on the stoneforge discussion and reiterate that stoneforge is a very viable option to ensure your rhino is king of the board. I also still believe that playing more then a 3-4 card sfm package dilutes the rhino plan too much. I've traditionally played 1-2 sfm and always a sofi. solas and jitte switched frequently between main and side always playing more swords the squires. it's worth noting that evan with the 3 card package some percentage of the time a turn 2 stoneforge will snowball into a win with this deck vs a large percentage of the feild.
As a side note I have never placed any priority on sfm. For me its always been the thing floating three cards down with top waiting till ive cleaned the board and deployed a rhino to ensure he closes the door. I currently have 2 truths and a nightmare in these flex slots.
That being said I have little past experience and no experience in the current metagame playing a true blade varient with 3-4 sfm bskull and 1-2 sticks. I feel there are better shells then rhino to run it in if thats your game plan(i.e. pod or esper).
I think playing 2 SFM and 2 Equips, similar to Maverick, is a viable option, but you have to cut slots from somewhere, and they're already tight.
I think Junk is a very good option right now, not only because of your disruption, but the life gain on Rhino swings many midrangey games in your favour, not only the 4/5 trampling. The life gain allows you to Truth or Sylvan and not be red-lining so hard with your life total. Sigards is your go-to gameplan when you can, though. I've found Nightmare to be clunky lately, so I'm back on Intent and Meren to give them a go again.
This isn't to say Jund is bad at all, but I think you really have to lean on higher drops, which makes your builds a tad more clunky. Nothing wrong with Fires, for sure. I really like Stormbreath as a 2-of, but you're likely still having to run Thrun, and likely multiple Tusk to have the same life-gain width.
I'm not an expert on BUG or Eldrazi, so I'm not going to comment on it.
I also don't think 4C is bad, either. I'm splashing red for Slaughter Games, and you could easily splash white in Jund for Teeg/Canonist. I don't think I'd want Rhino since you have few ways to cast it, at least maindeck, and I don't really think it's a SB card either.
If I were on Jund, I'd try:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 DRS
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Thragtusk
15
3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Top
2 Truth
2 Liliana
4 GSZ
4 Therapy
24
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
22
2 Slaughter Games
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reclamation Sage
+4 Flex
Where to fit Meren? No idea.
-1 Tragtusk should do it.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
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