[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[weaselface]

Which is more versatile, Null Rod or Winter Orb?

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[mosaic]

Interesting, didn't expect those, please elaborate.
Ain it useful against MUD or Cloudpost?
At what point is Winter Orb gonna take over a game from Miracles?
And why Jund specifically?

Winter Orb is good against Lands, Cloudpost, Loam decks, Miracles and probably against other durdling decks.

Against miracles it might not be that strong as it is against Lands, but still a very good option. Orb makes it harder for Miracle player to activate Top that many times, so I think it is good at any time.
Not sure whether I would side it in against Jund... never did, so I can't be judge of it, but they play lots of cheap spells too, it mightl hurt us as well. Similar goes for MUD, they often have other mana sources then lands....

EDIT:
@weaselface: both have their merits, against ANT Orb is useless, Null Rod shines, both are exceptionaly usefull hate and many times you use them both (Miracles).

[Whitefaces]

Miracles. Maybe jund

Where did Jund come from? Not sure I'd bring it in vs them. Miracles, yes.

Winter Orb is for any deck that's slower than us. It severely hampers the ability of opponents to maximize effects like Top that require mana input every turn, it makes cards like Rishadan Port much worse, and makes Deathrite and Wasteland much better. You want to play it when your opponent is tapped out (or tapped low) so that you get the maximum tempo boost from it - also note that it's a way to turn your Dazes and Pierces back on.

btm10 is right, Miracles and Lands especially, but anything that can go bigger than us. I wouldn't play Winter Orb in the Hymn build, but for the Stifle versions with Pierces you want to keep these and Dazes live.

[Bobmans]

Where did Jund come from? Not sure I'd bring it in vs them. Miracles, yes.

btm10 is right, Miracles and Lands especially, but anything that can go bigger than us. I wouldn't play Winter Orb in the Hymn build, but for the Stifle versions with Pierces you want to keep these and Dazes live.

Sounds good; thanks for clearing that out.

[KobeBryan]

Where did Jund come from? Not sure I'd bring it in vs them. Miracles, yes.



btm10 is right, Miracles and Lands especially, but anything that can go bigger than us. I wouldn't play Winter Orb in the Hymn build, but for the Stifle versions with Pierces you want to keep these and Dazes live.

For those punishing builds. They cant recurr every turn

[H]

While I think it's fine to bring in Winter Orb versus something like Jund, it's a rather dangerous proposition and you may well never get a spot to cast it where it will actually benefit you. When I started playing Orb in earnest I wanted a card that could preform versus Miracles, Turbo Eldrazi and Lands (with splash damage against MUD). You don't want to be playing a Winter Orb when you are behind on board, it's there to make slightly ahead on board into very ahead on board, because you are cutting off their ability to dig, via cantrips or most especially Top, or by delaying via lands like Maze of Ith and Thespian Stage. It can help to bail out your tempo plan, since we can often be slower than RUG.

There is a real danger in playing Orb when you are not ahead, since you cut off your own velocity and make your own cantrips bad. There have been times where I landed Orb, only to actually be very relieved that my opponent actually removed it. The best way I can describe it is that Winter Orb is a very specific answer to a certain number of problems, not a general answer.

At the end of day, I think that Surgical is a far, far better answer to almost anything Jund is doing.

[Gazoline]

Hello everyone!

First of, im sorry for the wall of text, i dont know how to make spoiler tags or decklists that pop up....

So this is was my second time playing this great deck filled with fun!

A little background story, i havent played magic for very long. around two n half years. Where the first 1.5 years where at the kitchentable with my gf and some friends.
I come from playing Nicfit. so this is the first time im playing blue (except some dabbling around with reanimator in an fnm). Ive probably made lots of misplays and bad sideboarding and such. But hey you gotta start somewhere, right? =) played legacy for about 1 year and played maybe 8 small tournaments. around 10-25players.

About the tournament:

60 players attended! (quite big for a legacy tournament around here)
Price structure for top8:
1: 1x Volcanic Island + Snapcaster Mage
2: 1x Tundra + City of Ass
3: 1x Bayou + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4: 1x Bayou + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5: 1x Taiga
6: 1x Taiga
7: 1x Taiga
8: 1x Taiga

My deck:
CREATURES (14)
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gurmag Angler

SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

INSTANTS (16)
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (1)
1 Liliana of the Veil

LANDS (20)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
----------------------------------------------------
Match 1 - Bye from my first tournament. 1-0
Match 2: Miracles
-Round 1, I keep a very wierd (and nervous) first hand that with two daze, 3 lands, truename and a ponder.
I drop truename at turn 3, had do double daze his counterspell. True name get to stay. i never find another creature and he doesnt find a terminus untill he is down to 3 life. then scoops. he played very slow i think the round took 30-35min or so.
-Round 2 , 7card hand contained goyf, tropical, ponder, liliana, hymn, toughtseize, fow. i choose to mulligan (shouldve been an autokeep i hear from people) due to last round being so grindy i felt i want a quicker hand with more aggro... i keep mulligan down to 3, never to see a land again... i scoop round 2 and we go right into round 3 where i start good, he get a terminus with 5life left and then monostary mentor finishes my 16 life in couple of turn without me finding an answer.
He wins: im now at 1-1.

Match 3: Mana Dredge
Round 1: Not much to say. he wins.
Round 2, i get to wasteland his city of brass and get 2 delvers n 2 deathrite operational. My win.
Round 3, i get to wastland his gemstone then get 1 delver 1 goyf n 1 deathrite operational, i win

Standing: 2-1

Match 4: Reanimator
Round 1: Turn 1 griselbrand...
Round 2: pithing needle on my DRS and Liliana. (and sideboarded out all abrupts, didnt think about the needles), i dig around and ping him with deathrites (i have three of them on table) get him down to 14 or so life, without him finding any reanimation spells (i countered one earlier). They i find an abrupt! (Luckily i hadnt boarded out all of the decays that i thought i had....) i abrupt the needle naming DRS and win the round.
round 3: i turn 1 delver in respond he entombs, stupid me having a daze on hand says resolve... he reanimate griselbrand couple rounds later. i later tell him i shouldve dazed his entomb, but i felt somehow better to hear he had a daze on hand himself so wouldnt have done much difference.

Standing: 2-2

Match 5: Miracles
Dont remember much from the rounds except i did some sweet turn 2 toughtseizes that didnt get countered round 2 n 3 and got the his bloodmoon!
he wins round 3.

Standings: 2-3

Match 6: 12-post

Round 1 he gets marit lage on turn 4 or so.
Round 2 i get to wasteland him 3 times, still close round. i win.
round 3. i get to wasteland his thespian stage, play 2 hymn a liliana and a toughtseize. he doesnt recover and i win.

Final standings for me; 3-3. Finish on place 25/60. Im VERY happy i finished as i did with the little experience i have with legacy and this deck!
Just continue to play and gather experience now=)

Maybe most of you aint intrested in reading such a noob post. But thanks if you did!

Cheers!

[btm10]

Hello everyone!

F
-Round 2 , 7card hand contained goyf, tropical, ponder, liliana, hymn, toughtseize, fow. i choose to mulligan (shouldve been an autokeep i hear from people) due to last round being so grindy i felt i want a quicker hand with more aggro... i keep mulligan down to 3, never to see a land again... i scoop round 2 and we go right into round 3 where i start good, he get a terminus with 5life left and then monostary mentor finishes my 16 life in couple of turn without me finding an answer.
He wins: im now at 1-1.

Not a bad first outing. I wouldn't keep that hand though. With Sea I'd snap it off, but you've already basically gone to 6 (or worse) with two BB spells and no black source and you're basically forced to Ponder for a land on turn 1 with no interaction on the draw. Not where you want to be, especially against Miracles

While I think it's fine to bring in Winter Orb versus something like Jund, it's a rather dangerous proposition and you may well never get a spot to cast it where it will actually benefit you. When I started playing Orb in earnest I wanted a card that could preform versus Miracles, Turbo Eldrazi and Lands (with splash damage against MUD). You don't want to be playing a Winter Orb when you are behind on board, it's there to make slightly ahead on board into very ahead on board, because you are cutting off their ability to dig, via cantrips or most especially Top, or by delaying via lands like Maze of Ith and Thespian Stage. It can help to bail out your tempo plan, since we can often be slower than RUG.

There is a real danger in playing Orb when you are not ahead, since you cut off your own velocity and make your own cantrips bad. There have been times where I landed Orb, only to actually be very relieved that my opponent actually removed it. The best way I can describe it is that Winter Orb is a very specific answer to a certain number of problems, not a general answer.

At the end of day, I think that Surgical is a far, far better answer to almost anything Jund is doing.

I definitely think Surgical is better against Punishing Fire than Winter Orb is. We aren't nearly threat-dense enough to make turning Grove off every other turn worthwhile. They're also a Deathrite deck, so they can offset some of the tempo loss.

btm10 is right, Miracles and Lands especially, but anything that can go bigger than us. I wouldn't play Winter Orb in the Hymn build, but for the Stifle versions with Pierces you want to keep these and Dazes live.

I play it in my Hymn list, but I cut Liliana and Disfigure for Pierce in that list so...

[ANRoebuck]

4-1-1 into top 8 split (£1,100 total pool for top 8; £137.50 each) at 44 player event this weekend

2-0 vs mirror
2-0 vs xxx
2-1 vs MUD
0-2 vs burn
2-1 vs Grixis Tezz
ID

BUG Delver

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Sylvan Library
2 Spell Pierce
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Force of Will
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
2 Baleful Strix
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Misdirection

[btm10]

Congrats on your result. This is a genuinely interesting list. When do you board in Strix? Does it always come along with Deed? 24 Instants and Sorceries seems to be pushing it - did you have a hard time blind-flipping Delver? Is Thoughtseize over Hymn influenced solely by the BB cost, or is it more about velocity? If it's about velocity, do you think it's worthwhile to try and fit a Tombstalker or Gurmag Angler into the deck?

[Whitefaces]

I'm still confused by Jace, VP being played in decks with mostly reactive cards (daze, pierce etc). Don't you at least want something high impact to flashback like Hymn?

[btm10]

I'm still confused by Jace, VP being played in decks with mostly reactive cards (daze, pierce etc). Don't you at least want something high impact to flashback like Hymn?

I think that this thinking is sort of a trap. Most opponents will be hellbent by the midgame, especially given Thoughtseize and your Bobs, so rebuying Hymn is usually pretty meh. If your opponent has targets, getting back a Decay is always going to be valuable, and Jace provides insurance against people trying to overload Decay by boarding in a bunch of irritating permanents. Rebuying Brainstorm and Ponder in the midgame is still CA+selection, and you still have a Planeswalker that threatens to take over the game afterward. Asthereal or H pointed out a few pages back that BUG Delver is about constantly reassessing your role in a game, and both sides of JVP facilitate that plan.

[Asthereal]

I think that this thinking is sort of a trap. Most opponents will be hellbent by the midgame, especially given Thoughtseize and your Bobs, so rebuying Hymn is usually pretty meh. If your opponent has targets, getting back a Decay is always going to be valuable, and Jace provides insurance against people trying to overload Decay by boarding in a bunch of irritating permanents. Rebuying Brainstorm and Ponder in the midgame is still CA+selection, and you still have a Planeswalker that threatens to take over the game afterward. Asthereal or H pointed out a few pages back that BUG Delver is about constantly reassessing your role in a game, and both sides of JVP facilitate that plan.

It's not the worst idea to run Jace VP. He can be a solid Sylvan Library replacement. He's blue, which helps for FoW, and if he flips we have a fine Planeswalker that only cost us 2 mana to cast. Even when we are the aggressive player and we don't really want to run cards that don't have an immidiate impact when we cast them, we are often still happy to run a one-of Sylvan, so Jace could also be an interesting option there.

24 instants/sorceries is indeed pushing it, but my old list with 2x Stalker, 1x Sylvan, 1x Liliana also ran 24. It bites you at times, and I'd definitely not advise to go any lower than that, but I put down a few nice results so it's probably okayish.

Only thing I was surprised by was the choice of 3x Goyf / 4x Confidant. I'd probably switch those numbers, but I'm guessing this was a meta call?

[kubalonek]

I took this deck for the first time to see how it works for very small tournament (4 Rounds)

R1 - JUND (2:0) - won the die roll
G1 - I beat hit with goyf dealing with DRS with decay.
G2 - I countered everything he played refilling my hand with BOB.

R2 - RUG DELVER (1:2) - lost the die roll
G1 - he runs me over with delver and goyf.
G2 - I run him over with delver and 2 goyfs.
G3 - he had just everything wastelands, submerges and delver and goyf.

R3 - MIRACLES (2:1) - lost the die roll
G1 - I beat him to 4 drawing the ton of lands then he stabilizes and ran me over with mentor
G2 - I beat him with early goyf stifling miracles triggers and drawing cards from BOB
G3 - he was stucked on 4 lands i have shaman, BOB and lot of counters

R4 - ELVES (2:0) - lost the die roll
G1 - he played some creatures that I kept at the bay with goyfs slowly increasing board pressure (no combo at all).
G2 - he was mana screwed. I countered his glimpse, killed arbor with wasteland and flipped toxic deluge with 2 BOB in play clearing his 8 elves immediately.


This deck is sweet! :D

[Manroe]

What do you guys feel about natural state in the SB -- especially in the Bob versions?

[H]

What do you guys feel about natural state in the SB -- especially in the Bob versions?

I'm not sure what it would be for, Counterbalance? Neither Natural State nor Nature's Claim is really any good for that.

[Xerlic]

Natural State seems pretty redundant when we run Abrupt Decay.

[H]

Natural State seems pretty redundant when we run Abrupt Decay.

Well, supplemental Artifact or Enchantment hate can be good, depending on the meta, but yeah, the fact that Decay hits everything that State does and State hits nothing that Decay does not really means that you'd want something better as a sideboard card. Even Nature's Claim is better because it can hit anything (and I'd never run Nature's Claim).

[Ryu]

Could someone critique this for me before I buy it? I feel the mana base could use some changing and maybe cutting a spell pierce for a 4th decay might be better but I have no experience with this format. Also, if someone could, list out some "god hands" or ideal opening hands for On the Play and On the Draw?

1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Will_L]

I think you would be better served going all in the Stifle/Spell Pierce build with 3 trop/3 sea OR going all in on the black build with 4sea/2bayou/1trop and 4 hymns and lilis

The hold up blue for countermagic/stifle and sorcery speed disruption don't play well together...

I would also try and fit the 4th decay main. I play 5 removal spells main and that has always felt good to me