[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[btm10]

Play MUD.

That's obviously glib, but I think the difference between MUD and Eldrazi helps to show why Shardless is a fundamentally bad matchup for Eldrazi. One of your main weapons is Chalice, but out of all the blue decks in Legacy, Shardless cares about Chalice the least. The other problem is that all of your low-end threats die to Abrupt Decay and all of your high-end threats look pathetic attacking into Baleful Strix and get roadblocked and eventually outclassed by Tarmogoyf.

Eldrazi has been successful because it's a riff on the normal stompy class of decks but gets to play the most sol lands and is overall the least clunky because there's a nice curve of 2-6 mana threats. However, since shardless isn't going to kill you quickly, clunkiness matters less than overall threat quality. MUD is a crappy matchup for Shardless because the threats are so over the top: Wurmcoil and Ugin and stuff like that are just in another stratosphere from goyf. TKS and Reality Smasher are awesome and efficient, but cant get over the top of Goyf or Strix like that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that big stupid creatures that don't get outclassed by Tarmogyf and Strix are probably what you need. Stuff like Endbringer and Worldbreaker would be the best threats against Shardless. Does this make your deck too clunky against faster delver strategies? I dunno, maybe, but I think that's a price you'll have to pay if you want to do better against Shardless. You could also try Swords to Plowshares I guess since the cards you're having trouble with are creatures. I dunno how consistently your deck is able to produce white mana though.

I'm surprised you feel this way - I think MUD is actually a slightly better matchup than Eldrazi since their threats are more expensive and their fast hands are far more vulnerable to our interaction. Wurmcoil is scary but still pretty beatable, while Ugin is usually embarrassing against decks with Hymn, Wasteland, Liliana, Jace, and Force. They have to get to 8 mana, which only the Post versions can do reliably without Metalworker, and not only are those versions about a turn slower than the regular Sol Land versions, and then they have to draw it in a window where you aren't Fatesealing them (or runner-runnering things that you can't beat with a Jace out), can't make them discard it, can't Force it, and aren't beating them to death with giant Goyfs.

[Ephemeron]

I'm surprised you feel this way - I think MUD is actually a slightly better matchup than Eldrazi since their threats are more expensive and their fast hands are far more vulnerable to our interaction. Wurmcoil is scary but still pretty beatable, while Ugin is usually embarrassing against decks with Hymn, Wasteland, Liliana, Jace, and Force. They have to get to 8 mana, which only the Post versions can do reliably without Metalworker, and not only are those versions about a turn slower than the regular Sol Land versions, and then they have to draw it in a window where you aren't Fatesealing them (or runner-runnering things that you can't beat with a Jace out), can't make them discard it, can't Force it, and aren't beating them to death with giant Goyfs.

I'll concede I haven't played a ton against the matchup (no one in my group plays it so I don't have a lot of control over that) but the few times I have, it felt fairly miserable. It reminded me a bit of the old modern Jund vs Tron matchup, where it didn't matter how efficient you were, eventually they'll just slam a giant threat and it will be really hard to deal with and even if you manage to get past the first one, the second one will finish you off. Unless I could totally stunt their mana, I'll admit will be easier now that I've upped the wasteland count, it just felt like any of their threats was absurdly hard to beat (not just wurmcoil, but platinum angel/emperion and random expensive powerful jank like that). The fact that Eldrazi threats are way scaled down to the point where Tarmogoyf is a comprable card is one of the biggest differences in the matchup I think.

[Barook]

Everybody thanks for the feedback.

Outside of luck, I am not sure if Eldrazi has the tools to beat Shardless. The only match I lost against Eldrazi I got stuck on 2 lands and he drew multiple reality smashers and connected with a Jitte early. I just think you have to accept that it is a bad matchup.

Things you could try that I haven't seen: Swords of Feast and Famine and Fire and Ice. Feast and Famine makes it so we can't block at all, and Fire and Ice solves the strix problem. The issue with Jitte is that you usually have to throw away a creature to get it active, the swords at least protect your guys. I don't think you need Stoneforge, just multiples maybe?

I run a 2 SFM in the board alongside SoFaI, SoFaF and SoWaP to get the full protection suit in various match-up. For Shardless, SoFaI and SoFaF come in. SFMs depend on the rest of the board I would bring in if there are slots left.

And no, just saying a "it's bad match-up" just doesn't cut it when I run into it 3x in a 5 round league and get rekt regularly (4% league representation my ass when the MTGO matchmaking algorithm is a PoS that pairs you against the same opponent multiple times during the same league run for both). My older list had more game against it (around 40-45% range). But that list had MD 2 All is Dust, 3 Warping Wails and 4 instead of 3 Mishra's Factories.

Your best cards in the matchup are Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, and Endbringer. Thought-Knot is pretty meh unless it's part of an explosive start or Shardless kept on the strength of a single card like Liliana or Strix. Reality Smasher is similarly only good as part of an explosive start because it's so easily outclassed in combat by Goyf. The best way to fight Shardless is probably either to go W/R or U/R to get access to Drowner of Hope and Eldrazi Obligator. Obligator in particular is scary because it forces the Shardless player to rely on things other than big creatures to stabilize the board, lest they be killed in an alpha strike when they thought they were ahead. I haven't analyzed all that many options in Black, but Bearer of Silence seems reasonable in the matchup given how much Shardless loves to chump block.

If you're set on G/W, the best options are Blight Herder to minimize Liliana or to take a note from 12Post and board out Chalices and Smashers for an anti-Wasteland card and huge bombs like Ulamog and Bane of Bala Ged.

Edit: Ironclad raises good points, but I do feel like you need 3+ pieces of equipment before that plan really comes online. Eldrazi is light on relevant Decay targets as it is (both because of its low card velocity and a low number of actual targets). Equipment does play well with Blight Herder, though.

I don't run Matter Reshaper since it's mainly a filler creature for most Eldrazi decks. Endbringer is also a card that is too slow in most match-ups for its little impact. I prefer running World Breaker over it. Displacer is an all-star against alot of creatures, but fails miserably when it comes to Strix.

Blight Herder needs fodder to be effective (not always guaranteed) and is just a terrible in many other match-ups.

As for Decay targets, I'll definitely bring in my 3 SB RiPs to prevent DRS shenanigans and to shrink Goyfs into irrelevancy. So there's that, but that alone isn't enough.

I wonder how many, if any, Thorns or Chalices I should leave in the MD against Shardless. CotV is way less effective than against e.g. Delver decks.

I'll probaby start with adding back some Warping Wails since extra removal against Strix is good and it can counter problematic sorceries in a pinch, namely Hymn or Ancestral, or random Toxic Deluges/Maelstrom Pulses.

[btm10]

Everybody thanks for the feedback.


I run a 2 SFM in the board alongside SoFaI, SoFaF and SoWaP to get the full protection suit in various match-up. For Shardless, SoFaI and SoFaF come in. SFMs depend on the rest of the board I would bring in if there are slots left.

And no, just saying a "it's bad match-up" just doesn't cut it when I run into it 3x in a 5 round league and get rekt regularly (4% league representation my ass when the MTGO matchmaking algorithm is a PoS that pairs you against the same opponent multiple times during the same league run for both). My older list had more game against it (around 40-45% range). But that list had MD 2 All is Dust, 3 Warping Wails and 4 instead of 3 Mishra's Factories.


I don't run Matter Reshaper since it's mainly a filler creature for most Eldrazi decks. Endbringer is also a card that is too slow in most match-ups for its little impact. I prefer running World Breaker over it. Displacer is an all-star against alot of creatures, but fails miserably when it comes to Strix.

Blight Herder needs fodder to be effective (not always guaranteed) and is just a terrible in many other match-ups.

As for Decay targets, I'll definitely bring in my 3 SB RiPs to prevent DRS shenanigans and to shrink Goyfs into irrelevancy. So there's that, but that alone isn't enough.

I wonder how many, if any, Thorns or Chalices I should leave in the MD against Shardless. CotV is way less effective than against e.g. Delver decks.

I'll probaby start with adding back some Warping Wails since extra removal against Strix is good and it can counter problematic sorceries in a pinch, namely Hymn or Ancestral, or random Toxic Deluges/Maelstrom Pulses.

The RiPs sound like a good plan. Chalice and Thorn are ok on the play, but I probably wouldn't have either in on the draw. Removal, equipment, and RiP are all better than Chalice or Thorn once Shardless is already playing to the board.

[ironclad8690]

I think Eldrazi needs to use Wails on Baleful Strix and Dismember goyf early. Sometimes a well placed Chalice on 1 or 0 can stop us too. Especially Chalice 0 if there is a Visions ticking down, I have a surprising amount of people Chalice @ 1 when 0 is clearly better to choose.

[fluuu]

I went 4-0 in a local tour store being first drawing with the second one who was playing shardless too.

The matches were:

NicFit 2:0
Jund with blood moon main 2:0
Jund punishing fire version 2:0 (second game opponent lost being at 1 life because of revealing bolt with dark confidant, i had too much luck this game)
Some sort of burn with scepter isochron+orim's chant 2:0

The list is the standard one. This deck look like a killing machine, its insane.

Sorry for my bad english.

[btm10]

There are several lists that are "stock" at this point. Do you have MD discard? SB Meddling/Mage? How many Strix?

[ironclad8690]

I am assuming he is using either the BoM winning list with 3 Hymn or the "discardless" Lejay style list, since most people who use Thoughtseize MD never apologize for their English (usually only Americans). I would wager he has a Meddling Mage board as well. Your English is fine by the way :)

[btm10]

I am assuming he is using either the BoM winning list with 3 Hymn or the "discardless" Lejay style list, since most people who use Thoughtseize MD never apologize for their English (usually only Americans). I would wager he has a Meddling Mage board as well. Your English is fine by the way :)

That's fair. We love our Thoughtseizes over here, but you're probably right that it tends to be a NA-only deckbuilding choice.

And yeah, your English is fine fluuu.

Unrelated, but I want to try out a Liliting Refrain in the board as an extra generic, proactive answer in grindy fair matchups like Miracles and Stoneblade. Has anyone else tried something like that?

[fluuu]

There are several lists that are "stock" at this point. Do you have MD discard? SB Meddling/Mage? How many Strix?

I played 3 hymn main and 2 Tsz side, 3meddling sb and 2 strix main. I played just 1 creeping tar with 3 wastelands.

[ironclad8690]

Lilting Refrain is very interesting. The first thing that comes to my mind when I see it is actually the combo matchups rather than the grindy ones. Against combo I find not having insurance for a topdecked spell to be pretty bad: here is an example of a time when I would have liked it.

For those who don't want to watch, I was feeling pretty ahead against Rakdos Reanimator after spellbombing away his GY. I had a 5/6 Goyf on the field, and a Liliana with 3 counters. Aside from this we were in "topdeck mode" and he faithless looting'ed a Grave Titan into his yard and Animated Dead it and stole the game. I would have loved to have a counter effect like Lilting Refrain early to start building up counters so at least I could pre-emptively answers something like that.

Just an anecdote, but I could see something along those lines being pretty good.

[Whit3boy316]

New member here!
Just learned about this site, hope to use it as a resource for years to come.

Been playing shardless for a bit now but don't get enough reps with it as I would like. Dumb questions. Is jace really worth it? Most the time I have him I wish he was a 3rd lilly. What's the most common list floating out there now?

[ironclad8690]

New member here!
Just learned about this site, hope to use it as a resource for years to come.

Been playing shardless for a bit now but don't get enough reps with it as I would like. Dumb questions. Is jace really worth it? Most the time I have him I wish he was a 3rd lilly. What's the most common list floating out there now?

Jace is really good. He is one of the "power" cards in the deck, and removing him lowers the overall power level of the deck. I would never cut the last one, and much of the time I play 2. If your metagame has a lot of faster decks you can maybe put him in the sideboard instead, but I wouldn't recommend it.

He is at his best vs Miracles and other midrangey decks where each brainstorm you use past the first one puts you 1 card ahead of your opponent (and the CA matters, as opposed to combo or fast tempo where they don't really care about the grind), not to mention that he sets up cascades (which you really want in the lategame).

[Whit3boy316]

Jace is really good. He is one of the "power" cards in the deck, and removing him lowers the overall power level of the deck. I would never cut the last one, and much of the time I play 2. If your metagame has a lot of faster decks you can maybe put him in the sideboard instead, but I wouldn't recommend it.

He is at his best vs Miracles and other midrangey decks where each brainstorm you use past the first one puts you 1 card ahead of your opponent (and the CA matters, as opposed to combo or fast tempo where they don't really care about the grind), not to mention that he sets up cascades (which you really want in the lategame).

Here's is what I typically play against in my meta:
Goblins
Grixis delver
D&T
Infect
Miracles
ANT
Eldrazi

1 of's:
Lands
Dredge
Burn
Sneak and show

My list is what I would consider "the norm" with these exceptions:
0 thoughtseize main
1 toxic deluge main
1 jace main
4 hymn main
3 fow main
4 Ancestral main

I like 4 hymns but I truthfully have no idea if it's good. I debate about -1 ancestral a lot.

[ironclad8690]

Here's is what I typically play against in my meta:
Goblins
Grixis delver
D&T
Infect
Miracles
ANT
Eldrazi

1 of's:
Lands
Dredge
Burn
Sneak and show

My list is what I would consider "the norm" with these exceptions:
0 thoughtseize main
1 toxic deluge main
1 jace main
4 hymn main
3 fow main
4 Ancestral main

I like 4 hymns but I truthfully have no idea if it's good. I debate about -1 ancestral a lot.

4 Hymns does seem high, but with that many Aether Vial decks in your meta it might be worth. Your meta doesn't actually seem that Jace-friendly, aside from Miracles. I might even go up to 2 Toxic Deluge or a maindeck Jitte/Dismember/Disfigure in your meta.

[Whit3boy316]

4 Hymns does seem high, but with that many Aether Vial decks in your meta it might be worth. Your meta doesn't actually seem that Jace-friendly, aside from Miracles. I might even go up to 2 Toxic Deluge or a maindeck Jitte/Dismember/Disfigure in your meta.

I almost always side jace out for more removal or hand hate. Also run a 2nd deluge dB. Dismember intrigues me. Jitte is cool but I'd have to toy with it

[ironclad8690]

I have been getting crushed by blade decks you guys. Bant, Deathblade, Esper Stoneblade, it doesn't matter. They are all beating me way more often than not, with basically any version of this deck (2 thoughtseize, 0 thoughtseize, discardless).

How do you sideboard vs them? In particular:

1) how much discard do you leave in

2) How much hate do you have for the equips?

3) Do you bring in more removal?

4) Do you board out FoW?

I have been bringing out FOW, but I think stopping stoneforge is important enough to leave them in now. plz halp

[MorphBerlin]

@ironclad do you means Esper Deathblad or what deck are you specifically talking about?

[ironclad8690]

@ironclad do you means Esper Deathblad or what deck are you specifically talking about?

All stoneforge mystic decks.

When I leave discard in, it seems like I never have the luxury of having it for the 1 turn SFM allows you to "get" the equipment, or if it is Hymn I never hit the Batterskull.

When I board discard out and play to the board, I draw the wrong narrow answers at the wrong times. They have Deathrite Shaman? I get Golgari Charm. They have TNN? I draw Abrupt Decay.

I have not yet tried leaving Force of Will in the deck. Maybe that is the key? Just Force the SFM/Jace?

I don't know, I have never played Krosan Grip or artifact hate beyond just Pithing Needle and Null Rod, but maybe it is time. Whatever I am doing now just isn't working, blade decks are getting really popular online and I am losing a lot now.

Edit: Most recently I am using the Bazaar of Moxen winning decklist.

[MorphBerlin]

I am not sure I would bring in GCharm here, it seems very narrow unless you saw a lot of TNNs game one. Maybe switch it for another Deluge? Deluge really shined for me in this MU because you can let them spend 2+ turns doing their stuff and then whipe their board clean. The first hit from Battleskull doesn't bother me since we gain life from their StoPs too. Between Hymn,Thoughtseize and FoW I am a litte uncetrain. They all have their merits.

With the BOM winning list I would board like:

+1 S.Library + 1 Clique + 1 Null Rod + 2 Dismember/Disfigure

- 4 FOW -1 Strix (not sure here)

Maybe switch 1-2 Hym for TS?

How are your boarding plans?