[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dice_Box]

OK, I am looking through Lists right now to write the update and I wish to note what I am seeing:

I think that Molten Vortex mostly is in the deck as a way to free up Land spots. Having the option of taking out the four Grove really frees up what you can do with the deck and makes the splash a lot more workable. I do not actually think that Molten Vortex is a better choice than Punishing Fire, but in this build that space you open up is a commodity you can not go without. I do not know without testing how much of a change that makes, but as I look though these changes I think that a larger update than I was planing is in order. The decks are much the same, but the control plan is diffrent. How the deck will play out is not quite the same and the choices change due to the space opened up with the loss of Fire. This is really an interesting situation.

[Rivfader]

@ all on the bandwagon called Dark Lands: how consistent is this new build? Do you really feel Dark Lands is the way to go? And can you give arguments to back a yes (or no) up? Or is this build indeed a meta-build, specifically for SCG?

I like the maindeck abrupt decay a lot, for the reasons SupremePineapple mentioned. The discard is also great, because it's so flexible, disrupting combo, taking hatepieces, and I often swap Pfire/Mazes with them against decks low on creatures (like Miracles). But I am not that fond of Molten Vortex. It's great if it sticks, but it can get countered or decayed, and dredged away. And if you have it but lack loam, you're discarding lands you could have used to develop your board.

I tried a list (61 cards) in a small event (16 players) combining both Pfire and Vortex (2-0 Ooze Reanimator, 2-0 Storm, ID, ID, and then 1-2 loss in QF vs Dark Maverick). I've actually cut down a port, because I felt like they become less good without manabond, and without sphere effects. I've kept double thicket, as I feel they become more essential now that more non-recursive cards are being maindecked.
I like Sylvan Library a lot, as it both cardselection and cardadvantage. I'm also fond of Urborg in the combomatchup, as it ticks up the number of black sources to cast Thoughtseize, and potentially makes you combo a turn sooner. I'll definitely cut Karakas next time (probably for an additional KGrip), as it felt useless, even in the Reanimator Matchup.

MAINDECK
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fire
2 Molten Vortex
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration

SIDEBOARD
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dark Depths
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library

[Djehuti]

@ all on the bandwagon called Dark Lands: how consistent is this new build? Do you really feel Dark Lands is the way to go? And can you give arguments to back a yes (or no) up? Or is this build indeed a meta-build, specifically for SCG?

How consistent: Without Grove, the mana is very consistent which is a huge plus. The consistency lost comes from not being able to dredge into your removal (testing 1 of dark blast to rectify this issue, results have been good).
Is it the way to go: Dark Lands isn't THE way to go. Its just a personal preference. The fair creature matchups were already managable, having better game against miracles and combo ala Abrupt decay and hand disruption makes the black splash a logical adaption.
Argument yay or nay: Neither. Pineapple may be right that the manabase can support black without cutting Groves, but results don't lie. Half of the decks that are putting up results are molten vortex decks (according to mtgtop8 and mtggoldfish). If both list are putting up equal results, can one really be "wrong"? If neither one is wrong, then its up to the pilot to decide which version they prefer; RG being more synergistic, black splash being less graceful but has more catch alls.

[CptHaddock]

Wasn't this new build made to combat Miracles? I don't know about you guys, but overall I feel quiet comfortable with straight RG. I would like to improve my MU against Miracles, but not by going doen this path, perse. No matter what the idea behind 'Dark Lands', I like the splash for Abrupt Decay, Dark Confidant, and Thougtseize, not Molten Vortex.

@ all on the bandwagon called Dark Lands: how consistent is this new build? Do you really feel Dark Lands is the way to go? And can you give arguments to back a yes (or no) up? Or is this build indeed a meta-build, specifically for SCG?

The build is fantastic, having an answer to counterbalance and other problem permanents like equipment, large kotrs and oozes maindeck . It seems like people have had the exact opposite experiences as me in regards to the miracles matchup, miracles is a lot of the reason that I switched to the RUG/x build of lands. With R/G lands it feels a lot of the time that you are in this awkward situation where preboard if a counterbalance resolves with a top on the field you are basically locked out of the game. Postboard they just get so many tools against us and our hate is really overtaxed.

I think that the molten vortexes main are certainly a metagame call. The only deck where it feels like molten vortex is strictly worse is against d&t. If they ever get an early mom/revoker up you are pretty much not removing their creatures for the rest of the game. Other than that I have not really played against any matchups where it feels truly bad.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

How consistent: Without Grove, the mana is very consistent which is a huge plus. The consistency lost comes from not being able to dredge into your removal (testing 1 of dark blast to rectify this issue, results have been good).
Is it the way to go: Dark Lands isn't THE way to go. Its just a personal preference. The fair creature matchups were already managable, having better game against miracles and combo ala Abrupt decay and hand disruption makes the black splash a logical adaption.
Argument yay or nay: Neither. Pineapple may be right that the manabase can support black without cutting Groves, but results don't lie. Half of the decks that are putting up results are molten vortex decks (according to mtgtop8 and mtggoldfish). If both list are putting up equal results, can one really be "wrong"? If neither one is wrong, then its up to the pilot to decide which version they prefer; RG being more synergistic, black splash being less graceful but has more catch alls.

Agreed. So much of it is playstyle dependent and I think both the vortexes and the black splash are worth continuing to experiment with. I've just found that I like having punishing fire in the deck enough to warrant the loss in consistency that comes from running grove too. Darkblast is a sweet idea!

[Chatto]

Thanks for your replies, guys. It's really helpfull. I definately see the upside of splashing black. Right now, I'm going to handle it two-ways:

1. MD Molten Vortex.
2. Black splash.
(3. Both 1 and 2 combined)

About route 1: it's not my style: it doesn't feel comfortable, so I'm going to abandon this idea for now. I really like route 2 (for the reasons mentioned), and going to try it for sure. The decklist of supremePINEAPPLE looks very good, going to use that as a startingpoint. About the manabase: no love for a basic Swamp?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I never considered a swamp but after thinking about it I don't think I'd ever run one over a bayou. I think the ability to tap for green is worth way more than any advantage you'd get from being able to fetch a basic swamp in a scenario where it mattered.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Vortex's worthiness is irrelevant to the Black splash regardless. I wonder if the original list by David Long (I think it was original, don't quote me) was just a preference to use Vortex. Regardless, the list supremePINEAPPLE posted looks very nice and probably can function fine with a black splash AND PFire.

@hyp3r1on: I disagree when you say Vortex is just as mana dependent as PFire. Your playing a deck with 33-35 lands, so it basically turns > 50% of your deck into a Shock if needed. If your assuming its dependent upon Loam, then maybe, but its not. When your in a pinch for removal, your likely to top deck one.

I'm a PFire fan myself, but I'm not going to be quick and underestimate Vortex. One of the reasons I do value with Vortex, unlike PFire, it can act as an alternate win condition. I cannot say that's worth while, needs testing. I feel like your more likely to bun your opponent away with a Vortex then a PFire. Is that relevant? Moons shut us down, and so do Bridge? I just dont want to face a Painter Player and auto lose.


Off topic: I seen a list run a MD Karakas over the 3rd Maze of Ith. I liked that a lot, has anyone else been doing that? I guess it would also be meta dependent.

[barcode]

Off topic: I seen a list run a MD Karakas over the 3rd Maze of Ith. I liked that a lot, has anyone else been doing that? I guess it would also be meta dependent.

3 Maze, 1 Karakas main here.

There's so many percentage points to be gained by having Karakas in the main deck that it's silly to relegate it to the sideboard.

[Chatto]

OK, I am looking through Lists right now to write the update and I wish to note what I am seeing:

I think that Molten Vortex mostly is in the deck as a way to free up Land spots. Having the option of taking out the four Grove really frees up what you can do with the deck and makes the splash a lot more workable. I do not actually think that Molten Vortex is a better choice than Punishing Fire, but in this build that space you open up is a commodity you can not go without. I do not know without testing how much of a change that makes, but as I look though these changes I think that a larger update than I was planing is in order. The decks are much the same, but the control plan is diffrent. How the deck will play out is not quite the same and the choices change due to the space opened up with the loss of Fire. This is really an interesting situation.

After some limited testing I came to pretty much the same conclusion. Man, this is tough... I may dislike Vortex, but I think it's a nessesity when splashing a third colour, in this case B.

Are Thickets really needed? What about the fourth Port or Depths? How many fetch do I need?

[Emrakul503]

MB Karakas can just steal otherwise unwinnable games frequently enough for it to merit a slot, in my experience. I think, like with most things, meta dependent, but in a wide firld I would be packing one. You can cut the 4th Depths of you need space and play 4 Depths.

[Rivfader]

@ Barcode and Emrakul 503
I'd be interested to hear how you experience Karakas, as it's quite different how I feel about it.

I only recall one game versus TinFins where I bounced an Emrakul and then won, but never besides this one win I was able to bounce a 'resolved' Griselbrand/Emrakul vs Reanimator, S&T, TinFins and the like, and then take the win. Because my opponent just drew up to 14 cards in response and won from thereone. That's different for us than it's in D&T, where the hatebears can pressure lifetotals in the meanwhile and Griselbrand's carddraw is less abusable. But against us, it's fairly safe to activate Griselbrand twice as 6, 13 or 20 life doesn't really matter versus a 20/20 swing.
I also feel like the S&T matchup isn't impressed by Karakas either. Bouncing Emrakul from S&T is great ofcourse, but sneakattack needs two red to bypass Karakas, so here it's only a delay. Also postboard there's bloodmoon nuking Karakas (amongst others things ...)

Or am I drawing a picture that's too grim here - like to hear about it.

[heckler]

I've run karakas main board for almost 3 months now. 2 days ago I decided to put it in the SB. Honestly, bouncing emrakul from show and tell is about the only thing I can count on it for. Or if i can wasteland red mana away for sneak attack. Realistically, SnT is an abysmal matchup in my experience (especially pre-board), and other grisselbrand abusing decks are far better served with crop rotation into bojuka bog. This can also be huge against storm.

I just can't see it as more useful than the 4th depths or bog

[barcode]

Karakas bounces:

1. Thalia
2. Merit Lage
3. Vendilion Clique
4. Griselbrand
5. Emrakul
6. Mangara
7. Venser
8. ...and so on...

It's such a low investment. The return on the fourth Dark Depths is much lower than the return on the first Karakas.

[Rivfader]

Karakas bounces:

1. Thalia
2. Merit Lage
3. Vendilion Clique
4. Griselbrand
5. Emrakul
6. Mangara
7. Venser
8. ...and so on...

It's such a low investment. The return on the fourth Dark Depths is much lower than the return on the first Karakas.

Ty for the list. I do have to say that I have never played against Venser or Mangara before, Thalia and Clique on the otherhand I see a lot. But these are also very manageable with our custom creatureremoval (wether its Pfire, Decay or Vortex).
Marit Lage on the other hand is a different story. Haven't ever played against Turbo Depths, Karakas is assumably sweet here. But in the mirror match, I feel like it's about wastelocking your opponent and denying him loam, as he'll usually never push through Marit Lage without a wastelock control over mazes, Chasm ... And croprotating for Karakas in the mirror to bounce a token being made, might as well have been a wasteland in response to the sacrifice trigger of Dark Depths.

Personally, I don't see the cards mentioned in your list enough (aside from Grizle and Emmy) to have Karakas maindecked (I'm even on the flipside of dropping it from the side). But that's my meta ofcourse, it probably would be different if I'd face your listed creatures a lot.

[Chatto]

I've been SB'ing Karakas almost from the beginning, but depending on the meta I would swap it with Bog.

On other news: I'm trying Vortex now... Feels weird, but not too weird. I'm trying, so... Yeah.

[gigapatrick]

Another video set:

Leagues #10

Just a warning: I get kind of bent out of shape in the last two videos, and I'm not proud of it, but here they are for your enjoyment nonetheless.

[chaosjace]

From what I read lately, I might go with decay main, but keep in the P fires, not sure what I will cut yet. Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation might be my friend.
I will always argue that If your goal is to mill yourself then you NEED hate that you can play from the yard.

CITP land that destroys an artifact or enchantment when??

[barcode]

I will always argue that If your goal is to mill yourself then you NEED hate that you can play from the yard.

Or you need an alternate way to win that isn't that based on the graveyard. Do you have a moment to talk about Primeval Titan?

[gigapatrick]

Or you need an alternate way to win that isn't that based on the graveyard. Do you have a moment to talk about Primeval Titan?

I would like to talk about prime time. I've come to agree that rg needs a good alternate win con. Been testing prime time. What do you think the best 75 is to use it?