Miracle Control

[FNTwin]

I've been talking to Wilson about it for quite some time, even before the GP, and almost audibled to it before the GP but was talked out of it by my testing buddies. I took it the a Super Sunday Series top 8 finish on Sunday of GP Columbus, and it felt fantastic. That being said, I DO believe it needs some work when approaching the mirror because if people boarded like AnziD and I do in mirrors, this list would get demolished. Definitely something needs work in regards to it, but it is for sure a TON of fun.

EDIT: I wrote a Report on it, actually, if you haven't seen it:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...adness-Series!

Yeah I saw your report some days ago and had a good read, sorry for not commentating .
I also follow the brainstorm show quite a bit and listened their report (and the deck tech) about gp Columbus so I was a bit excited to try their list (I did try it but it was a testing against storm and really did not understand the power of the deck). Like you saw I choose to play the standard ETA list but the other choice is this 4 mentor list...

[prepare4robots]

I don't know that anyone actually ever said that?

Hey Minn, i don't think you necessarily espouse this opinion, and I certainly respect the contributions you've made to this forum (i.e., I'm not trying to troll anyone here...), but I've certainly seen those types of comments here. I was going dig up some examples but thought better of it. This is more of an FYI that those comments are made.

[jrsthethird]

Joe Lossett popped in the chat of the live stream of EE4 Top 8 this weekend. Despite his need to leave and file a police report on an incident that happened outside his place while watching, he was able to be there for the 8 minute long romp of Eldrazi over Miracles. Turns out neither player really sideboarded for the match, so his comment was something like

"If you aren't sideboarding properly for this matchup, you deserve to lose."

And he listed off Eldrazi hate like Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone, etc.

Not sure if related or not, but this happened overnight: http://www.mtgstocks.com/cards/11653

Good luck getting those Moats, guys. -_-

[Minniehajj]

Joe Lossett popped in the chat of the live stream of EE4 Top 8 this weekend. Despite his need to leave and file a police report on an incident that happened outside his place while watching, he was able to be there for the 8 minute long romp of Eldrazi over Miracles. Turns out neither player really sideboarded for the match, so his comment was something like

"If you aren't sideboarding properly for this matchup, you deserve to lose."

And he listed off Eldrazi hate like Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone, etc.

Not sure if related or not, but this happened overnight: http://www.mtgstocks.com/cards/11653

Good luck getting those Moats, guys. -_-

That was mostly due to a few dealers buying them out collectively, not really anything to do with Joe's comments directly =P

[CutthroatCasual]

Good thing I got mine 2 years ago for $280

[Echinoderm]

That was mostly due to a few dealers buying them out collectively, not really anything to do with Joe's comments directly =P

Do you believe that the price might come back down?

[CutthroatCasual]

Find a middleman that can order one off MKM for you. Those prices are far less volatile.

[Claymore]

Absolutely no way that price sticks. Niche use/sideboard material. It's good in the top deck of Legacy as a 1-2 of, but that's it. It might have been fueled by the retards over at Quiet Speculation, based on the "Relevant Links - Insider: Picking Gainers in Eternal Masters Foils (QS) 2016-06-14" portion of MTG Stocks.

It will probably fall to about $400-600 though in the long run, but some dealers are stubborn with this stuff.

People have been trying to make high priced old school cards a thing lately (check the price history on Library of Alexandria).

To keep the insane price it has to be as essential to the deck as Tabernacle is to Lands. I don't see that happening, especially when Joe mentioned more modest options (Humility, Meekstone probably being the most comparable).

[MiraclesWizard]

Absolutely no way that price sticks. Niche use/sideboard material. It's good in the top deck of Legacy as a 1-2 of, but that's it. It might have been fueled by the retards over at Quiet Speculation, based on the "Relevant Links - Insider: Picking Gainers in Eternal Masters Foils (QS) 2016-06-14" portion of MTG Stocks.

It will probably fall to about $400-600 though in the long run, but some dealers are stubborn with this stuff.

People have been trying to make high priced old school cards a thing lately (check the price history on Library of Alexandria).

To keep the insane price it has to be as essential to the deck as Tabernacle is to Lands. I don't see that happening, especially when Joe mentioned more modest options (Humility, Meekstone probably being the most comparable).

niche sideboard material that instantly stops one of legacy's bigger threats, eldrazi. I don't have any moats, wish I did...

[twndomn]

BBD's puzzle/personal experience involving Miracles vs Eldrazi.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...-play-miracles

[CutthroatCasual]

I don't see how he loses unless he swings with more than 2 of his creatures. He said if he took the Blood Moon line he would only attack with 2. So if he does that, opponent plays Endless one and BBD chumps with 2 Monks, trading with Snapcastermorph (if the opponent attacks with it.) Then he can EOT Top to see if he can find a 2nd Plains?

How did he lose immediately?

FWIW I would have taken the Blood Moon line as well but probably not attacked with anything so if my opponent does top deck an Endless one I can eat at least one Mimic. In hindsight the Jace line is better, but who knows what that 2nd card would have been (if the top card wasn't Endless One but something better.)

[ozimek]

BBD's scenario pinpoints exactly how blood moon can be a double-edged sword, and in my experience it happens way to frequently.

The lands he has in play are rather shaky with 3/4 non-basics. I can only assume that he was unlucky and had drawn them. I have gone down to two Tundras because situations like this come up too frequently when you draw a Blood Moon. Never missed the 3rd one during any of my games in Prague.

[Nekron]

Hello fellow miracle players. I found this articlehttp://www.channelfireball.com/articles/ban-miracles/and there was some excellent points about how time consuming and how good miracle really is. How you think is this end of an era where aggro and combo decks are only good since 1cc wrath and playable counter plan.

[chaosjace]

Moat does't stop Emrakul, better pick up those Humility

[MiraclesWizard]

Hello fellow miracle players. I found this articlehttp://www.channelfireball.com/articles/ban-miracles/and there was some excellent points about how time consuming and how good miracle really is. How you think is this end of an era where aggro and combo decks are only good since 1cc wrath and playable counter plan.

it won't happen. From a meta stand point its roughly 18%, if you take the Delver decks, its more than 18% combined. You blow miracles and Delver / Eldrazi would run blow up in usage.

[MiraclesWizard]

Moat does't stop Emrakul, better pick up those Humility

Moat doesn't need to stop emrakul, and if you're side boarding in moat vs. sneak and show....then you really shouldn't be playing miracles.

[kentheide]

it won't happen. From a meta stand point its roughly 18%, if you take the Delver decks, its more than 18% combined. You blow miracles and Delver / Eldrazi would run blow up in usage.

Those numbers are also skewed being mostly results from MTGO and bigger tournaments. It also doesn't give a clear impression on how many people actually play the deck, but how many people play it well.

[t3hmyth]

Played in my local weekly yesterday, and I just wanted to share a brief report. My current list is very similar to the Predict lists devised by Minniehajj and AnziD et al.:

4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Predict
SB: 2 Price of Progress

Price of Progress was a concession to my local metagame. Typically there is at least one each: Post/Turbo Eldrazi, Lands, Imperial Taxes, and a Grixis Painter/Tezzeret, and an Eldrazi MUD. The thought is that it can actively win (as opposed to stalling to not lose).


Round 1 - Eldrazi/MUD

The list my opponent is similar to the Eldrazi aggro lists, but it contains lock/prison pieces and uses a (Cloud)Post mana engine. Lock pieces are usually T1 Thorn of Amethyst or a Chalice of the Void with maindeck Lodestone Golems, and he plays at least one Trinisphere. (My experience with conventional MUD is that the correct line is difficult, but known: Swords the Metalworker and/or Forgemaster and attempt to race with Monastery Mentor). With this list... I really don't know what the correct angle is because of all the tax effects.

Game 1 - I'm on the draw. I allow a T1 Thorn of Amethyst with a Force of Will in-hand. In hindsight, I should have Force'd the Thorn and trusted Predict and Snapcaster each to recover me in card advantage. Worse--I Swords a T3 Reality Smasher after I had enough to setup a Terminus. Lots of mistakes this match. Once the first Lodestone Golem resolved, the two tax effects were too much. I would lose to a Batterskull.

OUT: 3 Counterbalance; 4 Force of Will; 2 Jace;
IN: 2 Price of Progress; 1 Monastery Mentor; 1 Snapcaster Mage; 2 Surgical Extraction; 2 Wear // Tear; 1 Predict
Notes: I honestly don't know how to board for this matchup. I kinda used the Kitchen Sink approach. I've tried it before and none of my spells feel high impact. In later consideration, I probably should have kept the Forces and the Jaces and instead cut a Ponder and some Counterspells.

Game 2 - I'm on the play. I get my Top online and have some means to dig. My opponent doesn't make any commitment to the board and opts to use an Warping Wail for a blocker for a Snapcaster. My opponent is holding 6 cards. Because I want hand information, I Surgical his Warping Wail in his upkeep--a mistake because I should have waited until the end of his draw step (it would have been a Warping Wail), but also likely a mistake in general--and he is holding a Thought-Knot Seer, a Trinisphere, a Lodestone Golem, and other effects. I don't have enough to counter or remove the TKS or what follows.


Round 2 - Bye


Round 3 - High Tide

Game 1 - I'm on the draw. My opponent opens with a basic island into Sensei's Divining Top. For awhile, all he did was Brainstorm, Ponder, and fetch basic islands. I didn't know what he was on. While he was sculpting my hand, I was also sculpting mine, and was able to build a reactive hand. Then he cast High Tide. Once I knew what he was on and what to counter, I dug for the Counterbalance and made sure it resolved. Then I dug for Jace and he resigned.

OUT: 4 Force of Will; 4 Terminus (I left in the Swords in case he had Snapcaster Mages)
IN: 3 Flusterstorm; 2 Pyroblast; 1 Red Elemental Blast; 1 Snapcaster Mage; 1 Predict

Game 2 - I'm on the draw. My opening hand had 2 counterbalances and a Red blast effect. I was able to bait a Force with the first Counterbalance and then time the second one to resolve. My draws were very cooperative in this game.


Round 4 - Imperial Taxes

This is actually my deck; I was letting a friend borrow it for the event. The card selection afforded by Imperial Recruiter makes it much more resilient than the mono-white Death & Taxes. In personal testing, it's like a 70-30 in favor of R/W.

Game 1 - I'm on the draw. I have a Top, a fetch, a Swords, and a Counterspell in hand, so I keep. (I assume I'll be able to dig for a Terminus or a defensive Mentor). He opens with a Cavern (naming Human) and then a T1 Mom with a Karakas and T2 Thalia. He chips at me for a few turns while I find the Terminus, but has 6 cards in hand after I cast it. I end up having to draw into a Tundra, and it cuts me off essential mana to Snap back a Swords for the Mangara that was exiling my lands. Felt awful.

OUT: 4 Force of Will; 3 Counterbalance; 2 Jace
IN: 2 Wear // Tear; 2 Surgical Extraction; 2 Price of Progress; 1 Snapcaster Mage; 1 Predict; 1 Monastery Mentor
Note: removing the Forces and Jaces seems like a mistake in hindsight. I think the plan should be to bring in the Predict to compensate for the card disadvantage of Force to counter the the things it will hit. I think, instead, I should remove the Counterspells. Also, I brought in the PoPs because I might be able to win with them if the game goes long.

Game 1 - I'm on the play. I keep a hand with a PoP and a Swords and a Top. Again he has a Cavern naming human and gets a Mom and Thalia out. Shortly after, I end up with a top 3 of: Counterspell, Counterspell, Predict without any fetchlands. He finds a Rishadan Port and it keeps me off double blue, which enables him to land a Stoneforge Mystic. I improperly sequence using Swords on the SFM (to prevent the equipment from being cheated into play) when I would later have a Terminus floating. I also would mortgage my Top for a card because I thought I could recover with the Ponders and Brainstorms I had. The opening Swords was the only one I saw all game, and I ripped a double Terminus off of a Brainstorm -> Predict (because the third card down was also a Terminus).

###

The Predict build feels like it has a different philosophy built around it than the more traditional Ponder build published by Philipp Schonegger that I was running for the previous ~8 months. (Listed here).

I'm very curious about any tactical considerations that are common to this build, or any sideboarding philosophy you could share. I'd appreciate anything that could educate us all about this deck. It's hard.

[Minniehajj]

Played in my local weekly yesterday, and I just wanted to share a brief report. My current list is very similar to the Predict lists devised by Minniehajj and AnziD et al.:

4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Predict
SB: 2 Price of Progress

Price of Progress was a concession to my local metagame. Typically there is at least one each: Post/Turbo Eldrazi, Lands, Imperial Taxes, and a Grixis Painter/Tezzeret, and an Eldrazi MUD. The thought is that it can actively win (as opposed to stalling to not lose).


Round 1 - Eldrazi/MUD

The list my opponent is similar to the Eldrazi aggro lists, but it contains lock/prison pieces and uses a (Cloud)Post mana engine. Lock pieces are usually T1 Thorn of Amethyst or a Chalice of the Void with maindeck Lodestone Golems, and he plays at least one Trinisphere. (My experience with conventional MUD is that the correct line is difficult, but known: Swords the Metalworker and/or Forgemaster and attempt to race with Monastery Mentor). With this list... I really don't know what the correct angle is because of all the tax effects.

Game 1 - I'm on the draw. I allow a T1 Thorn of Amethyst with a Force of Will in-hand. In hindsight, I should have Force'd the Thorn and trusted Predict and Snapcaster each to recover me in card advantage. Worse--I Swords a T3 Reality Smasher after I had enough to setup a Terminus. Lots of mistakes this match. Once the first Lodestone Golem resolved, the two tax effects were too much. I would lose to a Batterskull.

OUT: 3 Counterbalance; 4 Force of Will; 2 Jace;
IN: 2 Price of Progress; 1 Monastery Mentor; 1 Snapcaster Mage; 2 Surgical Extraction; 2 Wear // Tear; 1 Predict
Notes: I honestly don't know how to board for this matchup. I kinda used the Kitchen Sink approach. I've tried it before and none of my spells feel high impact. In later consideration, I probably should have kept the Forces and the Jaces and instead cut a Ponder and some Counterspells.

Game 2 - I'm on the play. I get my Top online and have some means to dig. My opponent doesn't make any commitment to the board and opts to use an Warping Wail for a blocker for a Snapcaster. My opponent is holding 6 cards. Because I want hand information, I Surgical his Warping Wail in his upkeep--a mistake because I should have waited until the end of his draw step (it would have been a Warping Wail), but also likely a mistake in general--and he is holding a Thought-Knot Seer, a Trinisphere, a Lodestone Golem, and other effects. I don't have enough to counter or remove the TKS or what follows.


Round 2 - Bye


Round 3 - High Tide

Game 1 - I'm on the draw. My opponent opens with a basic island into Sensei's Divining Top. For awhile, all he did was Brainstorm, Ponder, and fetch basic islands. I didn't know what he was on. While he was sculpting my hand, I was also sculpting mine, and was able to build a reactive hand. Then he cast High Tide. Once I knew what he was on and what to counter, I dug for the Counterbalance and made sure it resolved. Then I dug for Jace and he resigned.

OUT: 4 Force of Will; 4 Terminus (I left in the Swords in case he had Snapcaster Mages)
IN: 3 Flusterstorm; 2 Pyroblast; 1 Red Elemental Blast; 1 Snapcaster Mage; 1 Predict

Game 2 - I'm on the draw. My opening hand had 2 counterbalances and a Red blast effect. I was able to bait a Force with the first Counterbalance and then time the second one to resolve. My draws were very cooperative in this game.


Round 4 - Imperial Taxes

This is actually my deck; I was letting a friend borrow it for the event. The card selection afforded by Imperial Recruiter makes it much more resilient than the mono-white Death & Taxes. In personal testing, it's like a 70-30 in favor of R/W.

Game 1 - I'm on the draw. I have a Top, a fetch, a Swords, and a Counterspell in hand, so I keep. (I assume I'll be able to dig for a Terminus or a defensive Mentor). He opens with a Cavern (naming Human) and then a T1 Mom with a Karakas and T2 Thalia. He chips at me for a few turns while I find the Terminus, but has 6 cards in hand after I cast it. I end up having to draw into a Tundra, and it cuts me off essential mana to Snap back a Swords for the Mangara that was exiling my lands. Felt awful.

OUT: 4 Force of Will; 3 Counterbalance; 2 Jace
IN: 2 Wear // Tear; 2 Surgical Extraction; 2 Price of Progress; 1 Snapcaster Mage; 1 Predict; 1 Monastery Mentor
Note: removing the Forces and Jaces seems like a mistake in hindsight. I think the plan should be to bring in the Predict to compensate for the card disadvantage of Force to counter the the things it will hit. I think, instead, I should remove the Counterspells. Also, I brought in the PoPs because I might be able to win with them if the game goes long.

Game 1 - I'm on the play. I keep a hand with a PoP and a Swords and a Top. Again he has a Cavern naming human and gets a Mom and Thalia out. Shortly after, I end up with a top 3 of: Counterspell, Counterspell, Predict without any fetchlands. He finds a Rishadan Port and it keeps me off double blue, which enables him to land a Stoneforge Mystic. I improperly sequence using Swords on the SFM (to prevent the equipment from being cheated into play) when I would later have a Terminus floating. I also would mortgage my Top for a card because I thought I could recover with the Ponders and Brainstorms I had. The opening Swords was the only one I saw all game, and I ripped a double Terminus off of a Brainstorm -> Predict (because the third card down was also a Terminus).

###

The Predict build feels like it has a different philosophy built around it than the more traditional Ponder build published by Philipp Schonegger that I was running for the previous ~8 months. (Listed here).

I'm very curious about any tactical considerations that are common to this build, or any sideboarding philosophy you could share. I'd appreciate anything that could educate us all about this deck. It's hard.

Deck is EXTREMELY difficult and far different from traditional 4p builds. I'll elaborate more on philosophy and a quick sideboarding break down with one of our previous builds of the deck tomorrow, it's rather late here atm and I can't properly gather my thoughts, but look for it tomorrow! It's a vastly different beast from other builds and you cannot play them the same as you would other builds.

[princeofperasia]

Poor truckis...Played predicts in 2014 and gets no credit