[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Claymore]

With the new Thalia, you can tick Vial up to 3 and respond to their Fetchland activations as well. She's going to be a massive bitch to play around.

Time to actually add basic lands back into decks, otherwise you're playing fucking Modern, fetching EOT, and Citp tapped so you can do shit on your turn. Consider mixing new Thalia with, god forbid, Winter Orb.

Go Go Thalia Tireless Fetchland Stax....

[Finn]

That's a good point, Scott.

The fact is that this card interacts with just about all opponents in exactly the way Death and Taxes wants it to. The fact that it is also no slouch on the battlefield (especially when next to her less unruly alter ego who also has first strike) means that I can seamlessly stick this in to replace the hodgepodge of attackers that had hitherto taken up that slot.

[DarthVicious]

There are going to be a lot of exasperated scoops the moment Thalia 2.0 hits the battlefield. This card makes Wasteland so much better. And fetching a nonbasic is going to be funny. So much so, that I predict manabases are going to have to get a bit less greedy across the board.

*snip*

Wow, just saw the naysayers. I am happy to disagree. I am pretty sure this will be bonkers. I have faced Loxodon Gatekeeper often enough to know that the tight games that D+T seeks to create are disproportionately affected by this type of effect. It will be "yuge".

Agreed. "Yuge, Finn, YUUUUUUUUUGGE"

[c2232]

Alrighty ladies and gentleman, I present to you, Thraben University: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/

This site is currently under construction, but I hope that it will become the authoritative site for Legacy Death and Taxes in the years to come. As a teacher and judge, I am always seeking to educate. This site is a repository of the knowledge I’ve gained over the years by watching some of the greatest players pilot the deck, by discussing the deck on MtG:Salvation, and through my own play experiences. In particular, I’d like to thank Finn, creator of D&T, for allowing me to replicate and edit some of his content in various places across the website.

I intend on producing some video content and eventually start streaming, but I am going to focus on generating written content for the website first. I do intend to write about things other than Legacy D&T from time to time, so expect to see an occasional article about my modern musings or my experiences judging. Once the skeleton of the site is complete, I’ll work on making things pretty and embedding more cool gadgets and pictures. I have zero formal training in html or anything of that ilk, so bear with me in the initial months of the website as I teach myself new things. I’m aware that the website menu doesn’t work great on mobile devices, and I’ll get that fixed asap. I also plan on greatly expanding the matchup section, hopefully adding another matchup every 1-2 weeks.
-Phil Gallagher

I really dig the site. are you going to have other people write articles for it?

[Medea_]

@c2232

Absolutely. If you look at the Splashing Colors tabs, each one of those pages was written by a specialist in that color. Iatee wrote the page for red, for example.

Here are my thoughts on the new Thalia, btw: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=413

[iatee]

Going through a list of the top played decks on MTGO and asking: would you rather have Crusader or Thalia 2 in play?

Miracles - Thalia 2 by a decent amount I think because legend + Karakas is very strong and it makes your Wastelands better, though Crusader's still good as a must-answer threat with equipment.
Grixis Delver - Fairly even, Crusader blanks Angler and is stronger vs their post-board black cards. Thalia can punish them if they have a slow start. Both eat bolt for a big tempo loss.
Eldrazi - Actually Crusader, I think. Trades with TKS + can't be Dismembered (so essentially removal proof vs their deck) is more important than making Reality Smasher wait a turn. More and more Eldrazi variants are also showing up with Karakas.
Shardless - Crusader by far
ANT - Crusader, pretty marginal but doesn't get decayed/disfigured post-board and a faster clock
BUG Delver - Crusader by far
SnS - Thalia 2 by far but FWIW you don't need to improve your best matchup
UR Delver - Thalia 2 is a little better but they're both pretty slow and easy 1 mana removal targets
Burn - Similar to UR Delver
Infect - Fairly even, Thalia 2 might buy a turn on the play but Crusader blocks Elf / can't be chumped by Hierarch
RUG Delver - Crusader by far, blocks Goose/Goyf. They operate off very little mana and don't need creatures that ETB untapped.
DnT - Crusader by a bit, because Karakas
4c Loam - Pretty even? Thalia's really annoying for their manabase but Crusader blanks their creaturebase and more of their removal
Deathblade - Probably Thalia 2.0 depending on their manabase, but Crusader is still good
Merfolk - Crusader. Double strike + equipment make this match pretty unfair, worth more than blanking Vial blockers.
Elves - Thalia 2 buys you time, though Crusader is easily your best Jitte target
Lands - Thalia 2, but I don't actually think the card is much of a game-changer as 3 mana x/2.
Reanimator - Crusader by far, swings past Griselbrand, doesn't get decayed/disfigured.

Now that's not some landslide for Crusader, but it still comes out ahead. It's easy to forget that even though Crusader doesn't have an explicit taxing effect, it's not exactly a fair card for its casting cost...

[Medea_]

@Iatee
Agreed on your point with Crusader. I don't think that this card should come at the cost of removing Mirran Crusader from the deck completely. I think for the folks playing mono-white, it's pretty reasonable to cut one Crusader and one Avenger for two of the new Thalia. I'm not sure how (or if?) this slots into your build, as it isn't tutorable.

[Marungo]

I know it's already been talked about for 2 pages, but this Thalia is fantastic. The only question I have is how many we play. I imagine I'll start with 2, but part of me wants 3. Obviously don't want too many legends but damn this card is super sweet. Gonna preorder 4 even though I'll likely never play that many. Super hyped about this Thalia

[Arsenal]

Most mono-white lists have 1-3 flex slots maindeck. I know that I'm currently on 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth for my flex slots, but those have also been Aven Mindcensor, more Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, etc. I could see new Thalia slotting in those flex slots quite nicely.

[iatee]

@Iatee
Agreed on your point with Crusader. I don't think that this card should come at the cost of removing Mirran Crusader from the deck completely. I think for the folks playing mono-white, it's pretty reasonable to cut one Crusader and one Avenger for two of the new Thalia. I'm not sure how (or if?) this slots into your build, as it isn't tutorable.

I mean it's not impossible to find 2 slots in Imperial if the card ends up being strong enough - Flickerwisp is good enough so it's impossible to cut even though the card doesn't fit like a glove - but the opportunity cost is higher in Imperial when you're giving up tutor slots. It would have to prove to be uncuttable-auto-include-good in Mono-W and not Crusader/Brimaz/Wingmare/Eldrazi Displacer level 'decent flex option' for Imperial to play it.

My suspicion is that it's much closer in power level to those cards than it is to Thalia/Mom, it will see play and games will be won with it, but it won't end up being an auto-include. All of those cards have the potential to completely take over games too (Crusader vs Abrupt Decay decks, Brimax vs Bolt decks, Wingmare vs spell-heavy decks, Displacer vs grindy creature decks), but in many cases they're just a big creature that doesn't meaningfully affect the game state other than by being a big creature. I put this in the same category.

[Curby]

One note about Thalia2 vs Elves that I hadn't seen posted yet. Chaining Cradle activations to build mana for GSZ/hardcast Hoof happens all the damn time, and preventing an Elves opponent from ever having two Cradles of mana in a single turn is delightful. The fact that the Hoof itself loses Haste is gravy: the first goal is to keep them from getting it on the field at all.

[hill_giant]

That is interesting, and the fact that it gives us a window to tag a cradle before even the first use is pretty relevant. Even one cradle activation can kill us if the elves player knows what they're doing.

[Curby]

The fact that the Hoof itself loses Haste is gravy

Whoops, Ranger and Symbiote exist, both of which can untap the Hoof. It doesn't REALLY lose Haste.

[Dihensoeur]

Hello,

What about Death&Taxes Arbiter version with Thalia 2.0 ? It improves the deck no ?

[Mastikor]

Hello,

What about Death&Taxes Arbiter version with Thalia 2.0 ? It improves the deck no ?

Sure it does...but the question remains if playing Arbiter over Stoneforge is worth it. I think it isn't, especially now with with eldrazi on the rise. New Thalia is hot tho, I'm looking forward to jamming 2-3 in the main and harass people even more

[DisgruntledElk]

Hello,

What about Death&Taxes Arbiter version with Thalia 2.0 ? It improves the deck no ?

Hey Dihensoeur,

I have actually been brewing a bit since the card got spoiled. While I think she would be a great 2-3 of in normal/imperial DnT, I thought about revisiting the Leonin Arbiter versions. I have played the decks in the past, and while I liked the premise, they just felt like they were missing something. I think Thalia, Cathar Heretic may be the thing it was missing.

Here is the list I am currently testing:
Creatures: 29
4 Mom
4 Thalia, GoT
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, CH
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Flickerwisp

Spells: 8
4 Vial
4 STP

Lands:
4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
3 Karakas

Deck seems really sweet, but I'm not sure it's better than just going with something like this mix:

Creatures: 26
4 Mom
4 Thalia, GoT
4 SFM
4 Revoker
3 Crusader
4 Wisp
3 Thalia, CH

Spells:11
4 Vial
4 STP
3 Equipment (Jitte, SoFI, Skull)

Lands: 23
4 Waste
4 Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern
1 Mishra's Factory
9 Plains

While the Latter version is closer to stock and thus likely better, I feel the Arbiter version may be worth testing again. Thanks for any feedback!

[colo]

While everyone's excited about New Thalia, I was browsing huge lists of potential tutor targets for Imperial recently, and stumbled over something that might be worth considering: Mirror Entity. CMC=3 is ideal for Vial, and you can always cast that bugger uncounterable off of a Cavern of Souls. With mana open, it can allow for profitably attacking even with a disorganized band of little dudes (like Imperial Recruiter and Stoneforge Mystic after they've done their jobs), both if your opponent has otherwise prohibitively impressive blockers on their defensive, and if you're going to connect unimpeded. It also nullifies non-permanent-based -1/-1 effects as long as you have two mana open, can help against all forms of damage-based removal, and further increases the threat our fliers present on the battlefield. I haven't tested it yet, but I really like it on paper - what do you think?

[Fry]

Sure it does...but the question remains if playing Arbiter over Stoneforge is worth it. I think it isn't, especially now with with eldrazi on the rise. New Thalia is hot tho, I'm looking forward to jamming 2-3 in the main and harass people even more

I've played Arbiter and Mystic in my mono white D&T since Arbiter was printed, they're both good, even when together because by that point you'll probably have a Vial on 2, and even if not, you may very well be able to play and search.


The thing about the new Thalia is that the effect is very powerful, but I think that it comes down too slow most of the time for it to really matter without a deck being built around it. I don't know if it reasonably fits in a pre-existing deck, but I could very well be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, and I really hope I am wrong.

I think that I'll do some brewing with it and few other interesting cards, not yet sure though...

[iatee]

While everyone's excited about New Thalia, I was browsing huge lists of potential tutor targets for Imperial recently, and stumbled over something that might be worth considering: Mirror Entity. CMC=3 is ideal for Vial, and you can always cast that bugger uncounterable off of a Cavern of Souls. With mana open, it can allow for profitably attacking even with a disorganized band of little dudes (like Imperial Recruiter and Stoneforge Mystic after they've done their jobs), both if your opponent has otherwise prohibitively impressive blockers on their defensive, and if you're going to connect unimpeded. It also nullifies non-permanent-based -1/-1 effects as long as you have two mana open, can help against all forms of damage-based removal, and further increases the threat our fliers present on the battlefield. I haven't tested it yet, but I really like it on paper - what do you think?

I've actually thought about it before, even have one in my binder. The question is 'What problem does it solve / What matchups does it make better?' It feels like there's not some way to guarantee a board-state with lots of creatures + lots of mana. The dream scenario is having a Vial on 3, attacking w/ 3 1/1s and suddenly getting in for 15 damage out of nowhere. But unlike Elves, we don't have any guarantee to have lots of small creatures and lots of mana in play, it just happens sometimes.

Taurean Mauler also seems borderline playable as a tutorable beater that can be Caverned.

[colo]

I guess only testing can show if Mirror Entity is win-more or an actual problem solver. As a one-of tutor target, I think it's pretty harmless to try out, and I plan on doing so soon. It could also make for some fun mind games with opponents that know you're playing it, as a Vial on three with a few mana open now leaves them in a very delicate situatuation even during YOUR combat phase - could you be hiding an Entity in there and wreck either their life totals, or their blockers, while just casually swinging by with 1/1s?

Thinking about it, it also makes Batterskull's Germ token a more respectable threat (although I don't run BS in my 75 at the moment). Same goes for everything with Double Strike and/or +1/+1 counters (Epochrasite).

I don't see it happening in mono-W, since I don't think it does enough to warrant being played in multiples - but a one-of could do just enough to be worth it.