All B/R update speculation.

[slave]

I just don't like the fact that you can play a sorcery spell on the opponent's turn. That needs to be errataed.

I hate that about Terminus. Needs to be fixed.

There's not many cards that can get around Terminus. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is one of a few that doesn't mind it so much, but it's not exactly a good card.

Really, Miracles without Top would still be a good deck.

[Fox]

It's again focusing on a tertiary problem. You could fix a lot of problems by changing SDT to say Tap to draw only as a Sorcery, but that will do literally nothing about drawing Terminus on your turn (do a card search for "draw a card at the beginning of next turn's upkeep"). SDT would certainly be removable however which would be an improvement. You start changing the miracle mechanic to say on your turn, you get into the murky waters where some of those effects are rip-offs of instants and are supposed to be at that speed. Either way you're glossing over the fact that some card in there is allowing a deck to get away with mainboarding 4x Wraths and 4x StP (hint: it gives infinite counterspells). While fair decks are fine, just because they exist does not mean that every fix needs to come from their vantage point.

By going after Terminus you're treating the symptoms, not the disease.

@slave the card you are looking for is Cellar Door

[btm10]

It's not really the novel aspect of an archetype deriving value by deliberately being designed to sequence the top of the library that's the problem - anything that punishes discard is inherently a positive influence (because discard, especially new iterations, is not designed in such a way as to punish people for not trying to win the game when they employ it. <-- this sentiment is an opinion).

Can you elaborate on this? The only deck I can think of that uses discard without trying to win is Pox, and that deck is punished for not trying to win by the fact that they're prone to flooding on dead effects and most decks can usually draw out of the initial resource screw and win before Pox manages to apply pressure . I'm just not sure where this is going and why discard (or any other form of interaction) is a problem.

We have a huge card pool, and there are clever ways to kill SDT atop a library...but the higher the cmc goes, the more you're talking about a braindead, new border card that only does that one thing. However, you can't actually pull that off if they tap 2 islands (no 1-drops for you). Now sure you can pretend that putting Predict/Foreshadow into your sideboard to snipe an SDT through CB is good, but it's the worst sort of gambling since any draw effect is effectively a counterspell. We can sit here and talk about 'Terminus is the real problem' or 'it's a sum of the parts,' but that's not really an excuse for understanding the primary mechanical imbalance and instead focusing on tertiary fallout.

I think everyone agrees that Top is the reason Miracles is good, and that if Top could be destroyed by Shatter or Disenchant then the deck probably wouldn't be playable. Zur's Weirding remains probably the best single hate piece against the deck (several people were discussing it in the BUG Delver thread about two years ago, and it's not terribly hard to push through with discard or counters.

[Crimhead]

Zur's Weirding remains probably the best single hate piece against the deck (several people were discussing it in the BUG Delver thread about two years ago, and it's not terribly hard to push through with discard or counters.

Is that better than Chains Of Mephistophelese?

[Whitefaces]

Is that better than Chains Of Mephistophelese?

They do different things. The main power of Zur's Weirding is you can pay two life to deal with a Terminus or Entreat when they draw it.

[nedleeds]

Saying Terminus is a "one-mana unconditional sweeper" seems at least mildly disingenuous, right? The "condition" is that you have to draw it as the first card you draw in a turn; you can mitigate that drawback with Brainstorm and Top, but the Miracles player doesn't always have one of those. It's not unlike saying "Infernal Tutor is literally Demonic Tutor;" sure, sometimes it looks a lot like it, but it depends on the circumstances. I often feel like Thought-Knot Seer is a two-mana 4/4 with Thoughtseize stapled to it, but other things have to happen for it to seem that way (drawing sol-lands/eldrazi lands, committing to colorless, etc).

Reading you guys ejecting blood out of your pores over Terminus when Brainstorm is the only reason it has text is truly hilarious. Forest. Meet Trees.

[Dice_Box]

Reading you guys ejecting blood out of your pores over Terminus when Brainstorm is the only reason it has text is truly hilarious. Forest. Meet Trees.

We missed you mate.

Is that better than Chains Of Mephistophelese?

You can pay two life and counter a Terminus. I think it's better.

[taconaut]

Reading you guys ejecting blood out of your pores over Terminus when Brainstorm is the only reason it has text is truly hilarious. Forest. Meet Trees.

Yeah, Brainstorm probably is too strong, but I do honestly think it would be a less fun format without it. I don't know what other formats you play, but everytime I'm playing one that isn't Legacy and just draw a pile of lands or something that could be fixed by Brainstorming them away, I'm glad that I get the chance to do it and actually play Magic in Legacy, instead of just dying. It does enable some busted things, too, and I get that people hate seeing it in every round, but being able to mitigate the variance that makes Magic both interesting but also super frustrating goes a long way towards improving my enjoyment of competitive formats. I mean, have you ever cast a Serum Visions? Ugh.

[Finn]

Yeah, Brainstorm probably is too strong, but I do honestly think it would be a less fun format without it. I don't know what other formats you play, but everytime I'm playing one that isn't Legacy and just draw a pile of lands or something that could be fixed by Brainstorming them away, I'm glad that I get the chance to do it and actually play Magic in Legacy, instead of just dying. It does enable some busted things, too, and I get that people hate seeing it in every round, but being able to mitigate the variance that makes Magic both interesting but also super frustrating goes a long way towards improving my enjoyment of competitive formats. I mean, have you ever cast a Serum Visions? Ugh.

Yeah, that about encapsulates the issues with Brainstorm. Interestingly, during take #73 of this conversation (we are on take #214 or so), I got several Miracles players to participate in a conversation that lead to them agreeing that Miracles would be unplayable in Legacy without Brainstorm. (It starts from the question of what you would do if you had two of your Miracles cards in your opening grip.)

I don't question the point per sé. However, if the "drawback" or "conditionality" is mitigated by a decks fundamental mechanics, they end up being barely relevant. I remember people calling DRS' mana-ability "unreliable" and "conditional", but I think we agree that all the fetchlands in the format make it an actual no-issue, which doesn't deserve a mention in a negative context. Brainstorm and SDT also lose their conditional weaknesses by playing Fetchlands, which are natural in the format. We can make points for LED, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy being conditional in storm.dec for example, but the difficulty to match their conditional criterias is laughable just like Delvers is. They are "natural fits", which doesn't deserve to be looked at some form of "drawback".

For me, the real issue with SB hate (when it comes to miracles) is, that the deck is extremely flexible; too flexible to by hated out with 1-2 angles of hate like most combo decks are. On top of that, the deck doesn't even have to pay a price for its flexibility: It can run a shitload of basic lands and everything from removal (Plow, Terminus, Wear/Tear) to counterspells (countertop, fluster, FoW) to cardselection (SDT, BS, Ponder) costs essentially 1 mana, so you can't even win from a tempo-angle

That's all very true. When I said that I am looking at it from a D+T perspective, I meant that Miracles can be stymied if you nibble at it from several axes at once. (D+T can unsummon and flicker its own creatures in response, make Terminus and all of the setup spells cost more while limiting the mana supply of Miracles, vial in fresh attackers immediately after Terminus resolves, revoke Divining Top, etc.) The net result is that the simple conditions for something like Terminus get complicated. Not all of the time, but enough of the time to limit its potency to the point that it does not feel overwhelming.


Terminus is a card with a terribly difficult condition to meet. It's effect is powerful, but it is just north of unplayable...well except for Brainstorm.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm gonna guess nedleed's answers here...

I don't know what other formats you play

Vintage

have you ever cast a Serum Visions?

No

[Fox]

Can you elaborate on this? The only deck I can think of that uses discard without trying to win is Pox, and that deck is punished for not trying to win by the fact that they're prone to flooding on dead effects and most decks can usually draw out of the initial resource screw and win before Pox manages to apply pressure . I'm just not sure where this is going and why discard (or any other form of interaction) is a problem.
I think everyone agrees that Top is the reason Miracles is good, and that if Top could be destroyed by Shatter or Disenchant then the deck probably wouldn't be playable. Zur's Weirding remains probably the best single hate piece against the deck (several people were discussing it in the BUG Delver thread about two years ago, and it's not terribly hard to push through with discard or counters.

On the discard bit, it is frustrating that most every fair deck that sees Blue and/or combo says "time to board in discard." It's fine, it works, and that's probably their only choice [since their answer isn't trying to win more efficiently/quicker]. The mechanic of discard, plus or minus seeing the hand, isn't fun (that's an opinion), but when it's used in a combo deck it's not as annoying (again opinion) because that game is going to end soon. There isn't a right or wrong viewpoint here, but where someone says 1-for-1'ing cards in hand is fun and interactive, I would generally qualify that as wasting my time/wouldn't you rather just try and win instead? As far as Pox goes I actually don't mind (opinion) someone being so passionate about going this far off the reservation to celebrate a mechanic they're obviously passionate about; this is a deck creates board-states that are so miserable that they're hilarious - and who doesn't love that old school feel of crazy spells with tremendous drawbacks?

So again with subjective opinion, I don't really care that there are cards out there (including SDT) that nullify what I find to be generally offensive mechanics. I am much more in favor of card design like SDT that helps you win (in spite of an opponent solely trying not to lose), than I am of inane cards like RiP that say I can no longer lose to 'x' and have no pressure put on me to win (this last part is key). Two-edged swords make the game more enjoyable, they lend themselves to more intellectually stimulating board states and decision forks.

You brought up Zur's Weirding, which is in the Ice Age block cycle of big blue card denial enchantments alongside Tidal Control and Counterbalance - the last one in the cycle betrays everything that they stand for.

[Quasim0ff]

I hate that about Terminus. Needs to be fixed.

There's not many cards that can get around Terminus. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is one of a few that doesn't mind it so much, but it's not exactly a good card.

Really, Miracles without Top would still be a good deck.

Miracles without top would be unplayable. It's not even close. The deck is a SENSEI'S DIVINING TOP deck, more than anything else.

[Crimhead]

Don't comment, if you cannot comprehend what I wrote or why I listed library manipulation seperately

I understand you perfectly. You are claiming:

1. A conditional card is not actually conditional provided a competetive deck can be built that naturally tends to meet those conditions.
2. Miracles would not be a significantly more efficient deck if Terminus could be hardcast out of hand at instant speed for .

If you believe the DRS player always has fuel when they need it, you are a deluded fool (because this is false and obviously so).

But beyond that, there is a difference in how Terminus's condition works. Often a DRS player has no use for Wastelands , Wasted-lands, or fetch-lands in the yard. This means that, provided they are present, exiling them is essentially free.

However, a Miracles player does have other uses for its deck manipulation. If the Miracles pilot wants to float a Terminus on their library, that limits there ability to dig. Cast Ponder? Can't shuffle even if the other two cards are sub-optimal. Need mana? Can't crack that fetch-land without tucking Terminus. Sure, you can always draw it and BS it back to the top-deck, but that means a) needing to have a Brainstorm, and b) not being able to cast that Brainstorm when you'd otherwise want to (and when you do cast it, you can't shuffle away your shaft.

Your apparent obliviousness to the subtleties (I use the term loosely) of this game means you either have no clue at all, or you are being disingenuous (either to troll or to attempt to deceive).

[Lemnear]

However, a Miracles player does have other uses for its deck manipulation. If the Miracles pilot wants to float a Terminus on their library, that limits there ability to dig. Cast Ponder? Can't shuffle even if the other two cards are sub-optimal. Need mana? Can't crack that fetch-land without tucking Terminus. Sure, you can always draw it and BS it back to the top-deck, but that means a) needing to have a Brainstorm, and b) not being able to cast that Brainstorm when you'd otherwise want to (and when you do cast it, you can't shuffle away your shaft.

It is so boring reading you complaining that cards work the way they do and that one has to use his/her brain at times to not "lock" themselves under Ponder or Brainstorm. All that bitching that the cost of setting up and resolving Terminus might cost 2-3 mana being sooooo unbearable in the face of the total manacost of creatures you sweep and generated, massive tempo- & cardadvantage.

[Crimhead]

Wait, you think I'm complaining?

Just because I'm comfortable with Miracles'power level doesn't mean I want it to be even stronger. FFS dude!

Incidentally I'm glad that Terminus requires set up (that STP does not). If I'm trying to assemble Marit Lage I have outs to Terminus that I don't have to an actual 1cc instant. I might kill the Top before I make the token, for instance. If their plan was Plow I'm SOL; but if their plan was Terminus they are SOL (unless they meet the condition of holding a Brainstorm - a condition that doesn't apply to STP because it's unconditional).

Terminus is also not easy to flashback with Snappy, because you have to go by the actual cost and not the conditional cost.

Again, I'm not complaining about this - my only complaint is having to spell it out to you over and over again. I guess it must be boring pretending that you're incapable of understanding something so straight forward. Snip Removed.

The real sad thing is that most of this community appatently to wants to give you a pass becuase they are also so frustrated by Miracles they no longer care if the bitching is based in fact or not. The mood seems to be to just let you vent because you have good reason to be upset.

[dte]

I didn't know "ffs", but google helped me there. However, for "sol" I am at a loss.
What does that mean?

[Minniehajj]

I didn't know "ffs", but google helped me there. However, for "sol" I am at a loss.
What does that mean?

S*** out of luck

[Crimhead]

I didn't know "ffs", but google helped me there. However, for "sol" I am at a loss.
What does that mean?

Shit-outta-luck.
The letters are pronounced S-O-L like initials but not an acronym.

[Stevestamopz]

I didn't know "ffs", but google helped me there. However, for "sol" I am at a loss.
What does that mean?

sol = Shit outta luck.

Miracles is probably not the lamest thing in the format (Griselbrand and DRS also come to mind), but when given the choice of "would you like eat this bucket of shit" or "would you like to eat this bucket of vomit" I still have no desire to eat either.

[dte]

thanks for the explanations!