All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

For what it's worth, my 2cs about jar. I've played my fair share against it and with it. Jar isn't a wheel, jar is a straight asymmetric i draw 7 effect. Your opponent rarely if ever use the effect, maybe 1 force if they drew it in the new 7, but that's it. While it may not straight break the format, especially since most problematic decks in legacy couldn't use it, a colorless 5 mana draw 7 spells is still the closest things to the nuts. I'd be comfortable in unbanning survival before jar as i'm convinced the card would be played but nowhere as oppressive as it was years ago, and more importantly, survival is one of those cards that becomes progressively worse as better non-recurring creatures get printed that make recurring tricks with survival just slow (reanimating anything with retainers is 6 mana, and while grizzly got printed, reanimating iona was close up there if not possibly better in an aggro deck as it actually killed opposing combo lists with no attack phase involveds). A straight UG Vengevival list from back then with DRS in place of hierarch get blown up by most decks in the formats (oh another vengevine? What about snapcaster stp zzz, also AD and DRS got printed , are very good against it, and in a lot of decks), and even the dream draw of T2 survival into T3 triple vengevines with FoW protection is arguably worse than chalice into TKS into T3 Reality smasher.

Twist and earthcraft are in the "do close to nothing" category. Survival is "powerful new archetype in the format, but not dominating". Frantic Search and Jar have a risk to be actually broken imho, like Bargain. Just start from the least problematic cards. Well, i say that, but WotC actually unbanned what i would have called a potentially broken card, time spiral, before tax AND vise which were trash tier.

[Michael Keller]

Personal attacks will be meet with infractions. Only warning.

What I'm starting to wonder is if this thread is conducive to anything positive. It seems that on every other page, someone is either attacking someone's opinions, credibility or someone personally. The basis for this thread is entirely opinionated and speculative - much more so than other threads - so it baffles me how constantly having to remind people in here of common courtesy etiquette and policing the most generic of polite behavior doesn't result in a positive endgame in any scenario. It's just an on-going circle-jerk of the same conversations over and over, with everyone trying to play the role of expert. Contributing something positive here is like trying to blast through the wall of slime covering the museum: it just doesn't seem to matter.

Seriously, there are way too many swinging dicks in here. It's a melting pot of opinions that only seems to draw ire and attacks that pulls a dark cloud over positive, fluid conversation. It gets really tiresome seeing teacher's red pen over an adult conversation, and I feel bad for Dice and every other mod who needs to correct people from acting like children.

[FCowper]

Earthcraft I don't see this card being good enough for a combo deck. It is safe.

Well if you can't see it, why are we worried? One person's opinion with no evidence is clearly a good system to base decisions on.

I personally would like to see mindesire unbanned the card is not that good, 6cc card I might win if I casted some spells is not that op.

Mind's desire is an INSANE card. It's pretty simple to get to six mana, and if you cast it for 5+ storm, you're 90%+ to win the game (pretty much). Getting to play four copies is just ridiculous, mind's desire for 5, hit 2 spells 2 land 1 desire, desire for 8 etc til you hit tendrils. Don't be silly.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It seems that on every other page, someone is either attacking someone's opinions, credibility or someone personally.

Maybe it just seems that way because you're a stupid jerk.



Seriously though, this thread does the rest of a forum a service because it keeps all of the awful things you've described confined into one thread that most people ignore 8 months of the year.
Isn't it easier for Dice_Box to just monitor this thread and occasionally paint it red than to have to police the entire forum?

Necessary evil.

Contributing something positive here is like trying to blast through the wall of slime covering the museum: it just doesn't seem to matter.

Blasting won't do anything... You need to use the Statue of Liberty to smash through the top. It helps if you can get New York City to sing Auld Lang Syne in unison.

[adrieng]

Well if you can't see it, why are we worried? One person's opinion with no evidence is clearly a good system to base decisions on.

It is a 2cc card which does close to nothing on his own. If you are gone play the 3cc combo squirrel stuff good luck with your pile !

We already have lot of better decks and this deck would be unconsistent as hell.

Rest in peace+ helm is better in enchantress cause rest in peace is good on his own.

Mind's desire is an INSANE card. It's pretty simple to get to six mana, and if you cast it for 5+ storm, you're 90%+ to win the game (pretty much). Getting to play four copies is just ridiculous, mind's desire for 5, hit 2 spells 2 land 1 desire, desire for 8 etc til you hit tendrils. Don't be silly.

Mind's desire is not what you think. getting 6 mana whith five copies is likely going to lose here unless you are playing with 4 tendrills maind+4 empty the warren

From probability you have 77% of chance of NOT hitting an other copy of mind's desire if you play 4 with a storm @5. So to have something decent you need 80% of winning right ? at least that would need a storm @ more than 20 before casting the first mind's desire meaning tendril would be letal.
Mind's desire was played when there was lot of wining spells. From probabilities to win with a storm @5 and to have a 80 % chance of winning you would need 17 winning cards in your deck making it very inconsistant with 17 cards with casting cost 6 or more.

Mind's desire is true garbbage clearly. It was played when there was bargain+wheel of fortune+time twiser and other 3cc bombs in this format it does clearly nothing true story proved by stats.

[Fox]

It is a 2cc card which does close to nothing on his own. If you are gone play the 3cc combo squirrel stuff good luck with your pile !

We already have lot of better decks and this deck would be unconsistent as hell.




Mind's desire is not what you think. getting 6 mana whith five copies is likely going to lose here unless you are playing with 4 tendrills maind+4 empty the warren

From probability you have 77% of chance of NOT hitting an other copy of mind's desire if you play 4 with a storm @5. So to have something decent you need 80% of winning right ? at least that would need a storm @ more than 20 before casting the first mind's desire meaning tendril would be letal.
Mind's desire was played when there was lot of wining spells. From probabilities to win with a storm @5 and to have a 80 % chance of winning you would need 17 winning cards in your deck making it very inconsistant with 17 cards with casting cost 6 or more.

Mind's desire is true garbbage clearly. It was played when there was bargain+wheel of fortune+time twiser and other 3cc bombs in this format it does clearly nothing true story proved by stats.

More precisely if say storm is at 4 for Mind's Desire, you put a storm trigger on the stack. Then you put all the copies on the stack in any order you like, not that it actually matters. Then you cast those spells, all before whatever storm card you may have hit. For no mana a storm 4 Mind's Desire potentially ramps storm from 4+1 (itself)+up to 4 to potentially 9 storm -> into last storm spell. That is lethal.

I don't think your arithmetic accounts for "casting without paying mana cost," increasing storm, and being exiled (and not in hand, see also LED).

[Whitefaces]

Mind's desire is true garbbage clearly.

This is prime sig material, would take it if mine weren't gems already.

[adrieng]

Yeah fox I know how mind's desire works. The question is : would storm be playable with MAINDECK 4 empty+4 tendril+4 mind's desire +4 others 4-6cc+ bombs cards. You need at least 18 WINNING TARGETS to have a 80% chance of hitting one with storm @5
Cause that's what you need to make mind's desire playable. I think no. The deck would be easily disrupted by tempo and an unconsistent pile.
You need at the very least 16-18 4-6 cc bombs spells to make it consistent which make it unplayable in legacy.

[Whitefaces]

Or a combo deck could play spells that make mana and draw cards, maybe even put a Tendrils of Agony on top of your deck? They exist right? Pretty good to hit off Mind's Desire, so you can make more mana and draw more cards to cast another Mind's Desire from the cards you've drawn to make more cards and and draw more mana then KABOOM. Dead. Mana. Cards.

[Fox]

maybe even put a Tendrils of Agony on top of your deck?

First part of resolving Mind's Desire or one of its storm copies: Shuffle your library, outside of priority.

[Megadeus]

I've dicked around with vintage storm with restricted desire before. I can't imagine how nutty 4 in a deck would be

[Whitefaces]

First part of resolving Mind's Desire or one of its storm copies: Shuffle your library, outside of priority.

Ah, fair! Forgot about that part of it.

Still, the card is bonkers and has no place in Legacy.

[Lemnear]

Yeah fox I know how mind's desire works. The question is : would storm be playable with MAINDECK 4 empty+4 tendril+4 mind's desire +4 others 4-6cc+ bombs cards. You need at least 18 WINNING TARGETS to have a 80% chance of hitting one with storm @5
Cause that's what you need to make mind's desire playable. I think no. The deck would be easily disrupted by tempo and an unconsistent pile.
You need at the very least 16-18 4-6 cc bombs spells to make it consistent which make it unplayable in legacy.

thats not how you build a legacy storm deck with Desire. You totally miss that flipped cantrips and Tutors let you continue the combo. Please stop posting about Desire if you don`t have a clue how the card works in that context.

every dark Ritual under MD is +3 mana, every Cabal Ritual is +5, every Infernal tutor is +5 mana, every Dark Petition is +7 mana, cantrips are free to grab the piece to get you going, every flipped Tutor can get you a new MD or a LED for blue mana to cantrip into the MD and flip half your library. There is zero need to pile up crappy killconditions

[maharis]

Agree on counterbalance.

Survival is interesting, I've been playing reanimator and it's basically the free-winniest deck I've ever played until I run up against any Deathrite Shaman/Grafdigger's Cage deck. Survival would have a better backup plan than Reanimator while being even slower to beat a Deathrite with any combo win. I could go either way.

I don't think Monolith/Key needs Mind Twist to be viable/good. Twist is probably fine even if someone wants to try that.

Jar and artifact lands and welder could do something stupid with Entomb available as well, but I think that would be more interesting than OP.

[adrieng]

thats not how you build a legacy storm deck with Desire. You totally miss that flipped cantrips and Tutors let you continue the combo. Please stop posting about Desire if you don`t have a clue how the card works in that context.

every dark Ritual under MD is +3 mana, every Cabal Ritual is +5, every Infernal tutor is +5 mana, every Dark Petition is +7 mana, cantrips are free to grab the piece to get you going, every flipped Tutor can get you a new MD or a LED for blue mana to cantrip into the MD and flip half your library. There is zero need to pile up crappy killconditions

Yeah so please post your list. I don't see how IT is going to give you 5 mana.
Something like that wouldn't work to me :

4 DR
4 CR
4 GP
4 CabalT
2 tendrill
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Led
4 Petal
1 DarkPetition
2 top
4 Desire
4 IT
15 lands

From testing with mind desire it fizzle a lot and that's not better than averaged storm. You are not vulnerable to graveyard hate but it fizzles more than 1/3 times that's a gamble.

EDIT : More tests show that it might be better than classic storm but it is not faster you need your double blue mana and can fizzle, the ability to not fail against counters might be too good but i still loses to hatebears/Cotv/CB/discards and stuff. Not sure it is broken though.

Anyway to me the problem in the format is CB which as good as survival in powerlevel 2 mana enchantment I win. Format warping.

[Lemnear]

Yeah so please post your list. I don't see how IT is going to give you 5 mana.
Something like that wouldn't work to me :

4 DR
4 CR
4 GP
4 CabalT
2 tendrill
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Led
4 Petal
1 DarkPetition
2 top
4 Desire
4 IT
15 lands

From testing with mind desire it fizzle a lot and that's not better than averaged storm. You are not vulnerable to graveyard hate but it fizzles more than 1/3 times that's a gamble.

The 5 mana off IT was a brainfart as it should be 3.

Other than that, what means fizzle and what number of storm are we talking? I mean if you expect to cast Desire with ~4 storm you can kick your SDTs and run some Sins of the Past to supplement Desire. The deck also needs a PIF for the regular ANT playline

[mistercakes]

i would even consider running a high tide version of mind's desire. anyway, there's lots of ways to take mind's desire instead of just modifying an already existing deck. it's banned for a good reason. playing many spells for free is an issue.

let's maybe try to move the conversation back to something worth talking about...like anything that could possibly happen.

[Megadeus]

i would even consider running a high tide version of mind's desire. anyway, there's lots of ways to take mind's desire instead of just modifying an already existing deck. it's banned for a good reason. playing many spells for free is an issue.

let's maybe try to move the conversation back to something worth talking about...like anything that could possibly happen.

My thought as well. It's somewhat difficult getting 2 blue in an ANT shell without LED at times early in the game. I think my list maybe just cuts the red entirely and goes UB Storm. PIF is sweet to beat counters and discard, but simply making 6 mana and casting desire beats counters often as well.

[jrsthethird]

One interesting thing with Jar is the amount of graveyard synergies in the format may make playing it less effective. I'm sure Reanimator, Dredge, Tin Fins, Lands, etc. would love a free mill 7. Practically every other deck runs Goyf, DRS, or Angler, which all benefit from larger graveyards. Plus you totally screw with Miracles. Draw 7/discard 7 resets their top, and for a deck with few win conditions, flipping a couple of them off of jar hampers their ability to actually win the game.

Card is still stupid busted, but food for thought.

[Darkenslight]

Yeah fox I know how mind's desire works. The question is : would storm be playable with MAINDECK 4 empty+4 tendril+4 mind's desire +4 others 4-6cc+ bombs cards. You need at least 18 WINNING TARGETS to have a 80% chance of hitting one with storm @5
Cause that's what you need to make mind's desire playable. I think no. The deck would be easily disrupted by tempo and an unconsistent pile.
You need at the very least 16-18 4-6 cc bombs spells to make it consistent which make it unplayable in legacy.

You never tested Scourge Extended, did you?

That deck could consistently kill on turn 3. Through hate. And there were no other pieces required, as everything was already there.

Desire is decidedly unsafe. Tolarian Academy would be a safer unban, comparatively, and that card is busted as all hell.