All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

While we are at it, can we have Yawgmoths Will? It SURE is now fair with DRS, RIP and Flusterstorm /s

I remember when I was told Vise would cause untold harm to the format and that Dragon would cause game after game to go to time. Still waiting on both.

I personally think Survival is just another one of these "Fear my past actions" cards. I don't actually think it would be so fearsome today. I think it would make a strong and effective deck, but I doubt it would be dominating.

[warai]

While we are at it, can we have Yawgmoths Will? It SURE is now fair with DRS, RIP and Flusterstorm /s

Totally fine with it in the format as long as mana rituals are banned.

[Whitefaces]

I personally think Survival is just another one of these "Fear my past actions" cards. I don't actually think it would be so fearsome today, I think it would make a strong and effective deck, but I doubt it would be dominating.

Agreed. Comparing SotF to Will is laughable. The real strike against Survival entering the format again is the stifling effect it would have on deckbuilding, especially for fair decks I reckon. It would be similar to Pod in Modern, why play a creature deck without it?

[Stevestamopz]

It would be similar to Pod in Modern, why play a creature deck without it?

Well it's not like there are heaps of pure creature decks left in Legacy anyway. I imagine DnT would have at worst a 50-50 matchup against Survival, and more realistically would probably be favoured against them. Survival for Rec Sage on Revoker is easily answered by Mother of Runes, another Revoker, Flickerwisps etc, Port and Wasteland destroy what is surely a terrible 3 colour manabase etc etc, Containment Priest and RIP would shut off the Vengevine plan... and these are just cards that DnT already plays in multiples. Imagine if they actually had to try?

If there was a card that maybe could help out decks against the current Miracles domination, it would be Survival. That said, Miracles is Miracles and we can safely assume that Miracles would start playing RIP again if Survival was unbanned. Also you have to beat the combo decks of the format with your base-green deck. Good luck!

[Julian23]

If Vengevince Survival turned out not good enough, it would probably just go back to being Bant Survival, which can regularly produce a turn3 Iona.

[warai]

If Vengevince Survival turned out not good enough, it would probably just go back to being Bant Survival, which can regularly produce a turn3 Iona.

Ok lets check the last big tournament successful deck lists.

2010 Worlds Sunday Legacy - 3/4th place - GW Vengevine Survival
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Savannah
3 [KTK] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [AL] Shield Sphere
1 [C13] Wonder
2 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CNS] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [CNS] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [CMD] Path to Exile

Worlds 2010 - Legacy Side Event - 1st place - GW Ooze Survival
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [R] Savannah
3 [KTK] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
1 [C15] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [SOM] Necrotic Ooze
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [C15] Shriekmaw
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [M11] Triskelion
2 [M11] Fauna Shaman
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [CMD] Path to Exile
4 [CNS] Swords to Plowshares
4 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [C15] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [C15] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [M11] Baneslayer Angel
SB: 2 [DTK] Duress
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [C15] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [CNS] Pernicious Deed

How good would this be in a 2016 (with some updates) vs D&T, Grixis Delver, Miracles, Shardless Bug and ANT world?

[Lemnear]

How good would this be in a 2016 (with some updates) vs D&T, Grixis Delver, Miracles, Shardless Bug and ANT world?

What means "with some updates"? The concept would look completely different today.

I remember when I was told Vise would cause untold harm to the format

Felt under the floor because Eldrazi and the rise of Chalice happened. Pretty much the same way why Land Tax didn't set a foot on the UW control playground at a time where Miracles just became a thing

[Dice_Box]

Felt under the floor because Eldrazi and the rise of Chalice happened.

Bullshit. Vise was unbanned on September the 28th, Eldrazi became a thing after the Pro Tour in February. That's 4 months the card had to do something and did fuck all. It was not Eldrazi or Chalice that stopped Vise, it was Vise being shit that stopped Vise.

[Lemnear]

Bullshit. Vise was unbanned on September the 28th, Eldrazi became a thing after the Pro Tour in February. That's 4 months the card had to do something and did fuck all. It was not Eldrazi or Chalice that stopped Vise, it was Vise being shit that stopped Vise.

And the meta was shifting as DTT was banned, Miracles sat on top of the format and greedy manabases got already punished by Lands.dec, before Eldrazi sealed the deal

It never had the right metagame/time

[Zombie]

I remember when I was told Vise would cause untold harm to the format and that Dragon would cause game after game to go to time. Still waiting on both.

I at least was vehemently against a Vise unban but solely on the grounds that it had a strictly negative EV - ie. either no impact (likely and what thankfully ended up being the case) or if it had an impact it'd increase the amount of miserable games in the format and punish clunky but playable keeps more.

[dte]

As I have played recently with Fauna Shaman, the card which is probably the closest to survival, I can assure you that survival is very far from being a safe unban. I am not sure that Y. will would be as bad.
Indeed, A T2 Fauna for two turns unanswered was most of the time translated into an easy win (sadly, most decks can answer a 2/2 very quickly). And survival is miles better, being unaffected by summoning sickness, activable multiple times per turn, killed almost only by decay (while letting you grab a witness to replay it next turn), etc...

Those saying that there is more potent gravehate now do not realize that this is actually not a problem for survival. You do not have to build with Vengevigne, Ooze or retainers. But the survival's opponent has to bring in gravehate as retainers+iona is a 2 cards-kill. And if the opponent land DRS/RiP, the survival player can just discard these 2 cards if he happen to draw them to go grab something that is not grave dependent, or go for Rec Sage - revoker to answer the gravehate.

Just grab the best hate against whatever you are playing against: magus of the moon/moat vs eldrazi, thalia/teeg/revoker vs storm, Sulfur Elemental vs D&T, Scavenging ooze vs burn (+fodder), Faerie macabre/DRS/sc ooze vs dredge/rea,...
They answer it? Repeat.

[Lemnear]

I cant believe we go through Survival again. Are people trolling or just plain too stupid to look at the last time we had the topic in this thread? I am sure one could stumble over the discussion just about 20 pages back

[Dice_Box]

It never had the right metagame/time

It was never going going to get that. It was banned back when you could abuse its effect with jewelry and Sinkhole was a real card. It's effect is no longer one anyone cares about, because there are just no ways to effectively abuse it. When Pox was a half threat maybe. These days you can't effectively strand a Delver player on one or two mana. They are designed to play on that margin and Miracles often plays with next to nothing in hand.

Vise was always going to have no impact. It's expiry date has been and gone as the mana costs in the format hit the floor.

You can argue Vice needing the right meta, agreed, that meta was around in 2005.

I cant believe we go through Survival again. Are people trolling or just plain too stupid to look at the last time we had the topic in this thread? I am sure one could stumble over the discussion just about 20 pages back

Not agreeing with you doesn't equal trolling or stupidity, it equals not agreeing with you. If you feel like you can't have a conversation on this topic without such comments or that you have already said your piece, your welcome to take a break from the thread

[dte]

I cant believe we go through Survival again. Are people trolling or just plain too stupid to look at the last time we had the topic in this thread? I am sure one could stumble over the discussion just about 20 pages back

Well, it is a topic on bans/unbans. Given the "exchange prisoner" system, it is only logical that the 5-6 most unbannable cards appear often. Hence repetitions on Survival or Mind Twist, even if I agree with you that those are better on the list than off.

[Lemnear]

Not agreeing with you doesn't equal trolling or stupidity, it equals not agreeing with you. If you feel like you can't have a conversation on this topic without such comments or that you have already said your piece, your welcome to take a break from the thread

There is no need for a conversation on the matter as we all just had one and the metagame as well as the arguments are the same as a few pages back.

So lets talk about a Necropotence unban, because its rarely a topic here and as Tomb into Chalice seems to be an interactive play, lets use Ritual into Necropotence to battle Hymn and Thoughtseize

[iatee]

I at least was vehemently against a Vise unban but solely on the grounds that it had a strictly negative EV - ie. either no impact (likely and what thankfully ended up being the case) or if it had an impact it'd increase the amount of miserable games in the format and punish clunky but playable keeps more.

Yeah it's funny how people fighting for unbans don't actually seem to care about whether a card can be expected to make legacy more fun or skill-testing, it's just some moral battle to free a card from its undeserved oppression. Who cares if Mind Twist is rotting in a jail cell for crimes it didn't commit? We get hundreds of new cards a year to play with and legacy has more than enough problem cards that aren't fun or skill-testing.

[rlesko]

This is not a valid argument. There's clearly a place in a varied metagame for an archetype that beats the Tier 1 and loses to enough Tier 2+ strategies to stay near 55-45 overall. You can't seriously be arguing that every Tier 1 deck must have an abysmal matchup with some other Tier 1 deck despite perfect play, otherwise it deserves a ban?

I can see the logic behind the "ban Top because it makes long tournaments miserable" argument. I can't see the logic behind the "ban top because it enables a control deck that isn't awful" argument. If you ban all the control decks you end up with a crap format like Modern where rounds either last 15 minutes or 55 because the only viable archetypes are aggro-combo and prison.

Yes, there is a place for an archetype like that. However, miracles is more powerful than what you just described. The only matchups it is fabled to be a dog in are cloudpost decks (which it has B2B and blood moon for) and possibly some fringe BGx (4c loam, nic fit). I never said anything about banning top specifically, by the way. And if so, that wasn't my reason. I like the utility that top provides other decks in the format. Something from miracles has to go, though.


I keep seeing people say landstill is favored vs miracles, though I fail to see how (and i've played the match up. Locally, there was an effort to make landstill work when DTT was legal). Miracles has what, 7 swords to plowshares + terminus? Try beating someone to death with some 2/2s against that. Not to mention, B2B and Blood moon out the board.

EDIT: Misread your post, Dice_box

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Standstill is basically a draw 3 in that MU (no creatures to worry about and the only thing you really have to worry about it top on turn 1, which you can force), you bury them in card advantage while they try and find the part of their deck that is relevant.

[rlesko]

Standstill is basically a draw 3 in that MU (no creatures to worry about and the only thing you really have to worry about it top on turn 1, which you can force), you bury them in card advantage while they try and find the part of their deck that is relevant.

Or conversely, you just lose if they establish the fabled top/CB and its not exactly difficult for them to find removal. Or if they have top under standstill you're actually disadvantaged. Basically you either counter everything they do or lose, kind of like playing a tempo deck vs combo. Its just flat out not true that its hard for them to interact.

[btm10]

I agree with this. Basically any time I see a control deck I think, is this better than miracles? And it's always no. Sure landstill is favored against miracles themselves, but they are much worse against much of the field. And yes I understand that pure aggro was pushed out before miracles, but miracles existing keeps it from ever even attempting a comeback. Terminus is the problem card other than the obvious Brainstorm. It gives miracles that catch all creature sweeper that is cheap and instant speed, and due to the nature of the card also forces you into the miracles shell. If there was reason to believe that maybe on a given day that EE, or pyroclasm, or supreme verdict were the best sweeper to play you could consider different control shells, but when you play those cards and you're essentially wrong because they aren't terminus, that's when it's an issue to me.

I actually think Terminus isn't as big a problem as Counterbalance since you can beat sweepers with "normal" cards like Painful Truths and threats like Batterskull and Mishra's Factory, as opposed to Counterbalance which largely stops the opponent from playing Magic. I'm still unconvinced as to whether or not a blue-based control deck is viable without both Counterbalance and Terminus, but I'm willing to entertain the idea that a tier 1 draw-go deck is be a cost worth paying to eliminate Counterbalance.

I keep seeing people say landstill is favored vs miracles, though I fail to see how (and i've played the match up. Locally, there was an effort to make landstill work when DTT was legal). Miracles has what, 7 swords to plowshares + terminus? Try beating someone to death with some 2/2s against that. Not to mention, B2B and Blood moon out the board.

Lam Phan's GP New Jersey list has a pretty fantastic Miracles matchup because its game 1 removal was less dead than Miracles', it had more hard counters, and because the only cards that Miracles ran that mattered were Counterbalance and Entreat. Having burn rather than Plows and Terminus made its Snapcaster Mages better, a s it got to run more raw card advantage tools and leverage its manabase. The only times I lost to Miracles with that deck (or Grixis landstill in the Dig era) was when they had Counterbalance with backup on turns 2-3 or if I flooded out on burn.