I think you're overestimating Storm's speed. A reasonable Therapy usually leaves them casting a couple cantrips and going off on turn 3-4 in my experience. A Zenith or Veteran and a Tower/therapy gets us to 5/6 mana on a similar turn number. SHG is definitely worse as a finisher, but turning Zenith into a lock piece is not a negligible advantage, given that getting a Rector trigger is only slightly easier than casting Zenith@5.Originally Posted by Echelon
As far as pure hate goes:
Leyline of Sanctity is probably too niche for a maindeck slot
Curse of Exhaustion is playable but might be a bit too irrelevant elsewhere
Nether Void does everything we'd want
Dovescape is like Nether Void, but harder to hardcast. Great with Starfield or Doomwake, though.
For finishers:
Sigarda1 is naturally great
Nissa, Vital Force is awesome but can't be Zenithed
Chromanticore does stuff with Rector and Starfield, but can't be hardcast
Archetype of Endurance does lots of things but is too expensive to reasonably Zenith
Tireless Tracker is a great CA engine, but relatively killable. We already have tons of CA engines.
You're overestimating your lists ability to produce so much mana combined w/ the right amount of disruption at the right time and having all the cards needed to make that happen.
You're @slightly >40% possibility to have CT (which may or may not matter at all), the odds of having CT/PT + Veteran Explorer + GSZ/Sigarda + no discard from your opponent are just so atrocious you can't try to rely on it. It's basically Magical Christmas Land (and last I checked your name is not Ricardio, so it isn't going to happen). Thinking that line is a realistic representation for G1 is just sticking your head in the sand.
You have about 20% odds of getting a sac outlet, a Vet/Zenith, and a Sigarda/Zenith#2 in your top 9 cards. It's not great, but it's better than most of the other options. Getting an enchantment like Nether Void out would require either Vet+Sac outlet+the 1-of in hand, or Vet+Outlet+Rector(+ second Therapy unless you had Tower), which isn't exactly much greater.
A lot of the time you're relying on the Storm deck to not have a good opening hand, or get some good Therapies in. If neither of those thing happen you're going to lose no matter what, but it's good to have a way of actually winning the game if your opponent doesn't find the gas they need or gets wrecked, rather than just presenting a clock and hoping they can't get there.
Played in Grand Prix Milwaukee Legacy Challenge this past Saturday. $25 entry, prizes based on final record. 5-0 gets 540 prize wall tickets, 3-2 gets 40 prize wall tickets (for perspective, a sealed booster box is 360 tickets). I'm from Milwaukee, so have a fairly good gauge on what the Midwest likes to play (FAIRRRRR), so instead of running a Force of Will deck like Shardless or Miracles, I opted to just go over the top of other fair stuff by killing people with Siege Rhino. This is the 75 I registered:
Main
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
Side
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke
Round 1: Mono Red Sneak (2-1)
G1 My opponent receives a game 1 loss due to tardiness, so we go to game 2 with him on play. I spot a Seething Song and SSG from him while shuffling, so I put him on Dragon Stompy.
G2 My opponent plays Mountain, pass. I play Forest, Vet. He plays Mountain, pass. I play Swamp, attack for 1, pass. I'm holding a Plain and Decay in hand, so I feel great that I have all three colors through basic lands + a removal spell for any of his things. Unfortunately, he proceeds to chain rituals into Sneak Attack, sneak Griselbrand, draw 14, find Emmy, swing for lethal. -4 StP, -2 Veteran, -3 Deed, +2 Canonist, +4 Seize, +1 Teeg, +1 Pulse, +1 Rec Sage.
G3 I mull to 5 on the play. My hand is Seize, Cabal, dual, Canonist, GSZ. I keep, scry 1, bottom the non-land card on top. I turn 1 Seize his mana while seeing more mana and like 3 monsters. He lays Mountain, pass. I draw into my 2nd land, allowing me to Therapy away his other mana, leaving him with lands and Monsters, but no mana and he had zero Sneak/Breach. I then proceed to drop Canonist, draw into more land so I can GSZ for Teeg, then proceed to beat him to death with green idiots.
Round 2: Burn (2-1)
G1 My opponent is one of my gaming buddies that plays at the LGS, so we were basically just playing like it was our weekly event. I knew he was on Burn, he knew I had audibled to Nic Fit 10 seconds before event began, hahaha. He does his thing and gets me to 1 life before I can stabilize with Siege Rhino and Thragtusk. We talk about it we think he could've won had he decided to Rift Bolt my face instead of DRS on his t2, but it would've been close. -4 Veteran, +2 Decay, +2 Canonist.
G2 He burns me out before I can stabilize. If you've ever played against Burn, you know the feeling.
G3 Variance rears it's ugly head and my opponent keeps a hand of 4 spells, 3 land, then proceeds to draw TWELVE lands in a row. I somehow draw about 11 lands as well, so this game goes on forever until I can finally find a threat. Wasn't much of a game, unfortunately.
Round 3: Junk (2-1)
G1 He's on the play and plays Marsh Flats into DRS. I look at my hand of Cabal, Deed, lands, and not much else. I Therapy him, name "Liliana of the Veil" and he just looks at me then proceeds to bin 2x Liliana and shows me a hand of SFM, Goyf, Bob. We laugh about it and I'm like "well, your fetchland and turn 1 play made me think you were Junk of some flavor, and I can't deal with a t2 Liliana, sooooo...." I proceed to Deed him into oblivion and draw into dumb fatties. -4 Veteran, -2 Cabal. +2 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Decay, +1 Rec Sage, +1 M Pulse.
G2 Ultra grindy game. Lots of back and forth, seeing me rip runner, runner, runner in order to stay alive versus his onslaught of dude, dude, dude, dude. Very tight game, but he gets there. I didn't feel close to stabilizing, but man this was a good game.
G3 Another ultra grinder. There is a sequence of events where I get to M Pulse his 2 Goyf, then because he needed to tap his 2x DRS in order to cast Council's Judgment on my Rhino, I can GSZ for E Wit, get M Pulse back, then M Pulse both his DRS. He hardcasts Batterskull, I get to topdeck GSZ and find Rec Sage to blow it up. I land a Rhino shortly thereafter and he concedes. Very good opponent and enjoyable match.
Round 4: Aggro Loam (2-1)
G1 My opponent is yet another buddy from the LGS, so we go into round 4 knowing I'm favored. Game 1 isn't really close as he's unable to mount enough pressure before Deed wipes his board and I get to GSZ for Sigarda, ending the game as he literally has no way to kill her. -2 Therapy, +2 Decay.
G2 Long, grindy game (of course) that saw his Bob draw him about 6 extra cards. He eventually hits 6 mana and it able to cast Chandra Flamecaller to kill me with hasty Elementals.
G3 Repeat of G1 essentially where we just lay lands, I kill a couple things (Aggro Loam very threat light) and it reaches late game where my bombs and GSZ are just better than his.
Round 5: Colorless Eldrazi (1-2)
G1 Yet another LGS buddy. We agree to play to it out as there is an Eternal Weekend Bye on the line. I start verrrry strong and get to accelerate, but draw no gas while he eventually draws into dude, dude, dude, dude that I can't answer. This game felt bad due to how tremendous my start was. -4 Cabal, +2 Decay, +1 M Pulse, +1 Rec Sage.
G2 This game boiled down to Garruk Relentless and nothing else. He literally could not find a way to push past the Wolf token army to kill Garruk (saw 0 Smasher, thankfully). Some people run 6 mana Sorin in this slot, but I prefer 4 mana Garruk or even 5 mana Nissa, Vital Force.
G3 Very back and forth, with me killing many of his dudes, and we're both in topdeck mode. He draws a bit better and kills me with big dudes. Good match nonetheless.
I finish 4-1 for 2nd place, walk away with 450 prize wall tickets and happy that my LGS had two players in finals (me + Eldrazi). I was happy that my meta call was correct and that I faced pretty much all fair decks and was rewarded. Deck felt great, although I'm looking hard at Garruk Relentless and Meren slots; 2 flex that might be something else moving forward (Recurring Nightmare and Nissa, Vital Force, maybe).
Nice finish.
Why 4 swords to plowshare? Argument against path?
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
I think there are pros/cons for both. I generally dislike giving my opponent access to mana as evidenced at how often I boarded out Veteran. I think I care less about him gaining 2-4 life from his Bob, Shardless Agent, Clique, Goyf, whatever than accelerating him a turn into Jace I'm unprepared for while I'm still slowly trying to get off ground and stabilize. Obviously I understand how awesome Path is when they run out of basics to fetch, but that means I've likely already popped a Veteran or two, suggesting mid-late game when I should be building momentum regardless of StP/Path.
EDIT: The card I really want to discuss is Nissa, Vital Force in the planeswalker slot. Hits hard when no blockers in way, protects itself with a 5/5 on empty board, returns any of our pretty bomby permanents to hand, and it ultimates turn after it hits play, generating pretty crazy advantage. Fetchland = draw 2 cards.
I've taken Nissa a few times now, in Sneak, Starfield and Atraxa builds. She's always been excellent and hasn't once been unimpressive. A couple times she's eaten a Maelstrom Pulse, or a Liliana -2s the land and she gets killed by an 8/8 KOTR, but that's still fine. The rest of the time she absolutely takes over the game.
Being a hasty 5/5 if you need to apply pressure is seriously exactly what a lot of Nic Fit builds need. Especially if you aren't in red, she's a real clock which kills planeswalkers too.
Nissa is great, I've started running her over Sigarda.
Yeah, I think I'll replace Garruk Relentless with Nissa, Vital Force. I think Meren will become 3rd Rhino, or if there's another really good 3cmc green dude I'm forgetting, any suggestions would help. 2nd E Wit?
Tireless Tracker is awesome.
omg, hahaha, completely forgot about that card. THANK YOU.
@Arsenal: Congrats on the result!
On PtE/StP - I understand that you don't want to give your opponent basics, but the MUs where PtE shines most are the ones where your stuff is bigger than your opponents anyway, so why care? You also draw a lot more cards than they do (when running stuff like Tracker, that is) so you're the one who gets the most out of it, not your opponent. Heck, vs. D&T it's even somewhat of a nice trap. Lure them into dumping their hand, then sweep their board w/ a Pernicious Deed and just run away with the game from there.
I've found that Path is occasionally awkward, particularly in the D&T matchup, assume they are playing around Deed (if they aren't, you're gonna win whether you have Path or Swords). IMO if you're playing a Rhinos build or otherwise trying to be more agressive about ending the game, you probably want Path, but if you're playing a more controlling build with planeswalkers and other incremental value, you're likely to have inevitability over the long term in a matchup and so Swords has basically no downside.
I don't see why StP would be less awkward in that situation. Having a land or life has nothing to do with overextending. Heck, one might argue that StP might be more awkward b/c giving them life might just give them the time they need whereas a land might not do shit.
D&T plays a lot of mana sinks (Port, equipment, Recruiter chains) and also appreciates being able to use its 'natural' land drops for Wastelands. I assumed you were saying that giving them land would encourage them to play their hand out more.
Giving them time isn't something I've found to come up often. If you're attacking their life total, you probably have the game under control and are closing things out. Usually by that point an additional turn isn't something that is going to make much difference (and you're often hitting them for enough that the 1-3 life Swords gives them isn't buying them a turn anyway).
Basically, Swords makes it harder for you to finish them once you've stabilized, but finishing them when you have control of the game is easy anyway.
Path makes it harder to stabilize in the first place because it grants them increased ability to apply pressure.
IMO Being able to more reliably stabilize is more important than having a faster clock once we've done so, because stabilizing a turn late often means we're dead, whereas killing them on turn 11 rather than turn 12 often makes no difference at all.
Meh, still think it's not all that bad. But I've been mainly facing a rather oddball D&T build lately (also runs some sol lands and Thoughtknot Seers).
The only thing I usually struggle with though is Batterskull. But even that is perfectly beatable.
Extra mana really helps D&T in the early game, but late game I likely don't have much left in hand and the extra mana will just sit there unless I have multiple Rishadan Ports out. When playing D&T against Nic Fit I'm usually trying to Plow the Explorers instead of getting them to die because I know the extra mana will benefit Nic Fit far more than it will benefit D&T, unless I'm mana screwed and drawing nothing but gas that I can't cast.
This.
This is also true.
I'm of the opinion that a less worrying early game is more important than a more efficient lategame, particularly since we are the 'control' deck and D&T is the 'beatdown' in the matchup and we can probably expect to win if the game goes late.
IMO if you're in a situation where Path > Swords, the game has gone late enough that you should win anyway.
Also, hitting your own creature with Swords for lifegain is occasionally relevant against combo decks and/or Burn.
Yeah, I mean, we board out Veteran A LOT, so running Path to Exile just becomes awkward postboard. Also, baiting Wasteland with a naked Savannah (while holding like 2-3 more lands) might mean difference between them being stuck on 2 lands through first 4 turns vs you Pathing their DRS and them just fetching up a basic and continuing on with their life like nothing. Idk, like I said before, pros/cons to each given specific circumstance.
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