[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Ralf]

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

There is no "desperate" need of Vet postboard.

The question was "what to cut postboard ?":

1) You = I cut "Vet"
2) We = We cut "therapy"

Let me rephrase.

This is a board position battle. Can we agree on that ? Discard is usually weak in battle for board position.

Have you never lost after ripping an oppo's hand apart just to see him draw runner, runner, spot removal when you drew therapy, land, therapy ?

Veteran is a poor topdeck mid or late game but therapy is even worse. At least veteran impacts the board whether you want it or not:
- It chump blocks a goyf
- It triggers upon dying whether there are any basics left in your library or not, usually improving by inches your next draws
- It can feed a liliana's effect, preventing you from sac'ing a much more valuable creature
- It can attack and deal 1 damage to your oppo/PW

Shardless is a midrange deck that tends to kill you with goyfs/DRS/whatever creature.
Most lists do not even play a Jace anymore.

Worse: Therapy is bad without a mean to abuse of its flashback ability because your chances to miss in your first attempt are very very real.

Do you really want to start the game with such a disavantage against shardless because you missed ?

Math explanations:

- T1 Vet
- T2 Cabal -> Miss + Flashback -> touché

Where are we ?

You are down 2 cards (Vet + cabal). You have 4 lands.
Your opponent is down 1 card. He also has 4 lands (they usually play 1 swamp 1 forest and, except if they are unlucky or retarded, they are not going to fetch for basics against Nic Fit)

Are you going to win this game ? Maybe, maybe not but the shardless player has already an edge.

[Arsenal]

Postboard, I use Therapy as a way to hand check the opponent to ensure my bomb-in-waiting will survive; rarely will I fire it off t1 just because. If I drew my Nissa, Vital Force, but my Shardless opponent has been holding onto the same card for the last few turns, I'm putting him on M Pulse. I cast Therapy, name M Pulse. You're right, I might miss, he could just be holding a dual land as a bluff, then I proceed to slam Nissa and likely win the game. Now, he could definitely topdeck runner runner runner runner runner and win, but how does Vet change that?

And I wholly disagree that Shardless has dropped Jace: http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token...ide=&strict=on

Idk, I've been on Nic Fit for quite some time (see my old BUG Pod posts a while back in this very thread) and have always boarded out Vets in majority of matchups. I've done well with my sb strategy. I've never really drawn a dead Therapy and thought to myself "maaaan I wish this had been Veteran Explorer", but have definitely had my bomb immediately answered because I had no way to protect it.

[Jain_Mor]

Usually they are far more afraid of what you can do with your mana than you are of them, so they don't attack which is the point.

For what it's worth, with your list I would sideboard like this:
- 1 teeg -4/2 therapy
+1 pulse +2 decay +2/0 choke

[Arsenal]

Hahaha, my thoughts exactly!

I do shave Therapy as well, but that's only after I've cut all of my Vets. Like, versus Shardless (I don't really factor Jund into meta consideration anymore, tbh), I'd consider boarding in 2 Decay, 1 M Pulse, 1 Rec Sage, 2 Choke, 2 Nihil Spellbomb. That's 8 cards. Even if I didn't consider the two weakest cards to board in (Spellbomb), that's still 6 cards. I'm cutting 4 Vets, 1 Teeg, 1 Therapy in that situation.

Also, I'm unsure why ppl are so afraid of t2 Goyf from Shardless? Like, postboard, aren't we running 8+ pieces of spot removal, 4 of which can't be countered? In my experience, their dudes aren't the issue, it's the AV and the walkers.

[square_two]

Hahaha, my thoughts exactly!



Also, I'm unsure why ppl are so afraid of t2 Goyf from Shardless? Like, postboard, aren't we running 8+ pieces of spot removal, 4 of which can't be countered?

Really depends on the list. I wouldn't assume most lists to have a full playset of decays in the 75.

My sneak list has 2 Decay, 3 PFire, 3 Deed as my removal in the main. Probably wouldn't consider Sidisi as "removal" even if she blocks well. In my side I have 1 To the Slaughter, 2 Pyroclasm as additional removal. Considering the PFires and Pyroclasms aren't going to be killing Goyf, then yea it's nice to have a Vet blocking the road. Since jund lacks both StP and this list lacks additional Decays, I have to rely further on chumping with Vet/EWitness/Empath in order to buy time to a good Deed or Sneak Attack win. PFires handle opposing planeswalkers quite well though, as well as the accompanying Delver/DRS/Stoneforge/etc. And elves.

So it seems our lists could be fighting against grindy stuff in some different ways. Walkers don't scare me quite so much.

[Arsenal]

For the Junk lists, I thought 4 Decay in 75 was standard. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also, whoever said Shardless no longer runs Jace... man, I wish that were true. It most definitely is not. They still run Jace, sometimes even another copy in the sb!

[Jain_Mor]

I really think you're getting the wrong impression. People aren't afraid of T2 goyf. The general consensus is that Vet explorer is better in a matchup based around board states and not cards in hand than a cabal therapy is.

You have Thoughtseize in the side anyway, surely if you're taking out vets you should take out therapies too and replace them with TS? Since they always hit. (It's what I do against miracles)

[Arsenal]

You have Thoughtseize in the side anyway, surely if you're taking out vets you should take out therapies too and replace them with TS? Since they always hit.

Sure. My point is that in my build, I'm like super duper removal heavy postboard so I don't care about whatever little dudes my opponent has most games. I care about specific cards at specific moments. Vet does NOTHING for me postboard whereas discard still has some tangible value. And the argument that discard is bad because opponent can rip answer off top of deck is moot because Vet would do nothing in that spot either.

I mean, postboard, I'll have 4 Decay, 4 Swords/Path, 3 Deed, 1 M Pulse, 1 Rec Sage (blows up their Shardless, Baleful (big one) and maybe a random sb card they bring in like Cage), on top of our dudes just being bigger than theirs. I honestly only care about AV and their walkers and their answers to my bombs.

Strange that people have had such different results and findings. I basically just copied Logan's SCG Milwaukee list from this spring and reduced curve and upped removal count. Perhaps you guys care more about board states because I'm running like 2-4 more removal spells?

[Jain_Mor]

I'm also super duper removal heavy post board. Again, I do run SFM though, so vets have additional utility for me. As the primer says, you have your way and I have mine.

But yea, take out your therapies for TS, that should make your plan even better

Edit: I have noticed a lot of lists get extremely removal light recently, I don't know how you all survive.

[Arsenal]

Have you found Deed + SFM to be a bit of a nombo? Like, opponent presents just enough threats on board that incentivizes you to want to pop deed?

[Jain_Mor]

Ahh, this chestnut, I might be able to find some old good posts on this, but the search function on this site has much to be desired.

Essentially, your SFMs never really live very long, and SoFaI has CMC3, so you usually deed under it. You can also sequence your plays with them in mind, and if they use removal on your SFM or you take out multiple creatures with your desperation deed you're not down cards anyway.

So yes, it happens, but honestly very very rarely. And definitely no where near enough for me to consider it an issue (I was skeptic before I tried her too way back when)

Edit: SFM is also just another creature to sacrifice

[Arsenal]

How often do you "get" people game 1, making them think you're just Junk Aggro or Maverick (maybe they've seen GSZ, or DRS, etc)?

[Jain_Mor]

Lol, I wouldn't really say that's "getting" them, and would unlikely change their sideboard plan much.

A list for your curiosity and viewing pleasure.

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Thrun
1 Sigarda
1 Tusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
4 Stp
4 Decay
2 Deed
2 SDT/Truths

SB
2 Needle / 2 Containment priest
3 Surgical Ext
4 TS
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Teeg
1 Rec Sage
2 Deluge

[Brael]

Lots to say here, and lots of quotes to reply to. My league finished. I ended up only playing 11/12 matches, scheduling with hell (finals) week got me on the last match (I may still be able to get it in on xmage though, who knows... technically I still have a few more days) but it's looking like my record is 6-3-2. All the results will have to be tallied in order to see if I top 4'ed. I think the final draw because I couldn't get a match scheduled will knock me out though, I was counting on another win or two.

My losses were to 4c Delver in a pretty unlucky sequence of events that I can no longer recall and to Omniscience which managed to T2 Emrakul me twice, once through a Cabal Therapy on their Show and Tell, they simply topdecked another. The final loss was to Infect, I had some pretty nice hands but they were Inkmoth heavy and I'm realizing that they can easily overload Paths.

The draws were to Miracles and more recently to Painter's Servant. I just played the Painter's match the other day so it's fresh in my head. The match ended 1-1-1 with me taking game 1, losing game 2, and being a turn or two off of winning when turns ran out in G3. We played a followup match for fun which I managed to 2-0 so I think I'm pretty favored, but Blood Moon decks with the right start can really slow us down and my deck is the grindiest thing I've ever played, aside from BUG Pod. Put the two together and I honestly believe the deck is slower than Miracles.

The total field was
Win
Grixis Delver
4C Delver
Dragon Stompy
Eldrazi
Pox
Death and Taxes

Lose
Infect
4C Delver
Show and Tell

Draw
Miracles
Painter's Servant

Total result for games was 15-10-2.

So my thoughts on the list and the stuff I was trying out:

• Dark Confidant - Loved Bob every time I cast him, he's great in the builds I've been running, also probably nuts in Rhino builds. I'm going to start running more. Probable 4 of. If you think Courser/Top is absurd, try Bob/Top active before your third draw.
• Monastery Mentor - I comboed a couple times, but ultimately it's not consistent enough. It also requires a few more hoops to jump through with sequencing which uses up brainpower, and takes time, when using just a single Top for triggers. I'm going to cut them.
• Ranger of Eos - I'm going to rate it as worse than Rhino but better than Meren as a 4 drop. It did what I wanted it to do though, which was to act as another source of CA on legs. The package was a little underwhelming though because I never used Safekeeper. Getting DRS, Endless One, and sometimes even Vets was great.
• Endless One - It was good, and sometimes game winning but not what I would consider a staple. I think I'll leave it in for now, but I'm going to look for a replacement. Of note, it was my only playable card several times under Blood Moon locks, and in such situations was able to give me some ability to play the game.
• Sylvan Safekeeper - Pretty terrible. This is a card that I know we dream about using a lot, as a GSZ'able Mother of Runes that doesn't have summoning sickness but the results just weren't there. This is getting cut.
• Cavern of Souls - I was very happy with this. I was dead set on increasing my list to two of them post board replacing the Phyrexian Tower, but then I played a game where Tower ran away with the game and I'm back to undecided.
• Tidehollow Sculler - This likely has to do with the fact that I've been getting T1-2'ed left and right the past couple weeks but I think this is too slow for what it's in for. I feel like I should either go all in on the slow card and play Lost Legacy, or try and go faster with Thoughtseize.

A way's back, page 387 I mentioned what I would like to change my deck to. I'll give it some more thought. I'm not 100% on if I'm attending GP Louisville but as of now I'm going to try assuming it's still possible to register come early January when I have a better idea of my schedule. That will also be the next time I get to play Magic most likely so I probably won't be getting anymore data before then.

Stuff I know I want though:
Blessed Alliance
More Bob
Nissa
Something big (thinking KotR)

For a while today I was throwing around the idea of moving to a straight GB list. Diabolic Edict is a potent removal spell (albeit strictly worse than Blessed Alliance) that can fill in for what Abrupt Decay misses and in some side games I've been testing, Nissa is more powerful than Sigarda. Combined those two things free the deck from white. I feel like a Punishing build overloads on the small removal (Fires/Decay) so Jund isn't the route I want to go down, even though I'm in love with Chandra, Flamecaller. Try as I might, I can't find a blue build that I'm in love with either despite really wanting to add Leovold and Trophy Mage as they lead to too many 3 drops. So I may play with green/black a bit.

Also, a question. Assuming I can tutor it (KotR, Crop Rotation, etc) what are the thoughts on Maze of Ith, or on land tutors in general? I'm thinking about just how far a toolbox could be pushed and a part of me really likes the idea of being able to tutor a removal spell. I like Crop Rotations synergy with Nissa, Towers, Courser, and Tracker too. This is one direction I'm considering for a straight GB list to buff up on the remove anything aspect a bit.

Yeah, I mean, we board out Veteran A LOT, so running Path to Exile just becomes awkward postboard. Also, baiting Wasteland with a naked Savannah (while holding like 2-3 more lands) might mean difference between them being stuck on 2 lands through first 4 turns vs you Pathing their DRS and them just fetching up a basic and continuing on with their life like nothing. Idk, like I said before, pros/cons to each given specific circumstance.

I think it depends on the meta. At a large tournament I favor Path. Locally though, everyone has started running a couple basics because of my deck and because Blood Moon is popular. I'm actually on the verge of switching to Swords to Plowshares because I don't like Path getting value.

I only very rarely board out Vet, actually -- Miracles is the only one off the top of my head where it's common practice to board them out. There's probably a couple more matchups where they get boarded or shaved, but I can't think of them at the moment. I leave them in vs DnT, not sure what other matchups are questionable.

I take mine out all the time, but this could have to do with the local meta. In fact, I devoted 5 slots in my sideboard specifically to alternate mana sources over my Vets. I take them out all the time, or atleast trim on them. But, I run a really low curve so I can get away with downgrading my ramp.

How are you guys reliably triggering Vet when you're boarding out your Therapy? I know we have P Tower, and I guess incidental Deed activation, but 4 Vet/0 Therapy postboard doesn't seem like you're going to be doing much early game accelerating?

Vets can block. Alternatively, when Vets are bad I keep alternate ramp sources in my sideboard to swap.

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

EDIT: Like, I'm truly trying to understand why we need Veteran postboard, assuming that our opponent is a grindy deck that you're anticipating lots of interaction, removal and over the top stuff coming in. If we're not popping it early and on our command (everyone says they cut Therapy postboard), we don't get full value from the "ramp" aspect of it as we're not casting a 5 drop on t3. If we're relying solely on popping it later game, when we've already laid our natural land drops, do we really "need" him? Like, I've laid 5 lands, but I guess I need 7?

I almost never cut Therapy. But, I'm not shy about cutting Vets.

[Echelon]

Every list is different, but postboard I have access to 4 Decay, 4 Swords/Path, 1 M Pulse as spot removal for Shardless/Goyf. I don't share the same fear of turn 2 Goyf as others maybe? I don't need a pseudo-wall?

EDIT: Again, giving your opponent the choice is my very point. It isn't *that* difficult for them when they get to decide when Vet triggers. They glance at their hand and they're holding Jace/Garruk/Liliana (un-Deedable), they just swing with their dude. Now you either block and let them cast their dumb thing or eat the damage and Vet did literally nothing.

Also, I'm unsure why ppl are so afraid of t2 Goyf from Shardless? Like, postboard, aren't we running 8+ pieces of spot removal, 4 of which can't be countered? In my experience, their dudes aren't the issue, it's the AV and the walkers.

People don't fear Goyf. At all. It's just nice to be propelled 2 turns ahead so you can start overpowering your opponent. That's what the deck does best. The alternative is that you keep mucking about with roughly the same amount of mana as your opponent has, trying to play "their" game.

On Path - It gains some more ground in MUs like Reanimator/Lands. Getting rid of a fattie without giving your opponent up to 20 life is pretty nifty.

On cutting Vets - depends on the MU. Vs. Miracles/ANT/TES, I cut 3. In most other MUs I like to go full throttle.

[jdmdave]

Hey guys. I'm considering ponying up the 100-120ish in cards I'm missing to build sneak fit (namely, emrakul, volrath, tower, and sneaks).

* 4 Vet Ex
* 4 Therapy
* 3 Decay
* 4 Sneak
* 3 Top
* 2 Empath
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Bellower
* 1 Thragdaddy
* 2 Nissa
* 1 Inferno Titan
* 1 Sidisi
* 4 Lightning Bolt
* 4 GSZ
* 3 Deed
* 22 Lands

Thoughts?

[rubblekill]

Lots to say here, and lots of quotes to reply to. My league finished. I ended up only playing 11/12 matches, scheduling with hell (finals) week got me on the last match (I may still be able to get it in on xmage though, who knows... technically I still have a few more days) but it's looking like my record is 6-3-2. All the results will have to be tallied in order to see if I top 4'ed. I think the final draw because I couldn't get a match scheduled will knock me out though, I was counting on another win or two.

My losses were to 4c Delver in a pretty unlucky sequence of events that I can no longer recall and to Omniscience which managed to T2 Emrakul me twice, once through a Cabal Therapy on their Show and Tell, they simply topdecked another. The final loss was to Infect, I had some pretty nice hands but they were Inkmoth heavy and I'm realizing that they can easily overload Paths.

The draws were to Miracles and more recently to Painter's Servant. I just played the Painter's match the other day so it's fresh in my head. The match ended 1-1-1 with me taking game 1, losing game 2, and being a turn or two off of winning when turns ran out in G3. We played a followup match for fun which I managed to 2-0 so I think I'm pretty favored, but Blood Moon decks with the right start can really slow us down and my deck is the grindiest thing I've ever played, aside from BUG Pod. Put the two together and I honestly believe the deck is slower than Miracles.

The total field was
Win
Grixis Delver
4C Delver
Dragon Stompy
Eldrazi
Pox
Death and Taxes

Lose
Infect
4C Delver
Show and Tell

Draw
Miracles
Painter's Servant

So my thoughts on the list and the stuff I was trying out:

• Dark Confidant - Loved Bob every time I cast him, he's great in the builds I've been running, also probably nuts in Rhino builds. I'm going to start running more. Probable 4 of. If you think Courser/Top is absurd, try Bob/Top active before your third draw.
• Monastery Mentor - I comboed a couple times, but ultimately it's not consistent enough. It also requires a few more hoops to jump through with sequencing which uses up brainpower, and takes time, when using just a single Top for triggers. I'm going to cut them.
• Ranger of Eos - I'm going to rate it as worse than Rhino but better than Meren as a 4 drop. It did what I wanted it to do though, which was to act as another source of CA on legs. The package was a little underwhelming though because I never used Safekeeper. Getting DRS, Endless One, and sometimes even Vets was great.
• Endless One - It was good, and sometimes game winning but not what I would consider a staple. I think I'll leave it in for now, but I'm going to look for a replacement. Of note, it was my only playable card several times under Blood Moon locks, and in such situations was able to give me some ability to play the game.
• Sylvan Safekeeper - Pretty terrible. This is a card that I know we dream about using a lot, as a GSZ'able Mother of Runes that doesn't have summoning sickness but the results just weren't there. This is getting cut.
• Cavern of Souls - I was very happy with this. I was dead set on increasing my list to two of them post board replacing the Phyrexian Tower, but then I played a game where Tower ran away with the game and I'm back to undecided.
• Tidehollow Sculler - This likely has to do with the fact that I've been getting T1-2'ed left and right the past couple weeks but I think this is too slow for what it's in for. I feel like I should either go all in on the slow card and play Lost Legacy, or try and go faster with Thoughtseize.

A way's back, page 387 I mentioned what I would like to change my deck to. I'll give it some more thought. I'm not 100% on if I'm attending GP Louisville but as of now I'm going to try assuming it's still possible to register come early January when I have a better idea of my schedule. That will also be the next time I get to play Magic most likely so I probably won't be getting anymore data before then.

Stuff I know I want though:
Blessed Alliance
More Bob
Nissa
Something big (thinking KotR)

For a while today I was throwing around the idea of moving to a straight GB list. Diabolic Edict is a potent removal spell (albeit strictly worse than Blessed Alliance) that can fill in for what Abrupt Decay misses and in some side games I've been testing, Nissa is more powerful than Sigarda. Combined those two things free the deck from white. I feel like a Punishing build overloads on the small removal (Fires/Decay) so Jund isn't the route I want to go down, even though I'm in love with Chandra, Flamecaller. Try as I might, I can't find a blue build that I'm in love with either despite really wanting to add Leovold and Trophy Mage as they lead to too many 3 drops. So I may play with green/black a bit.

Also, a question. Assuming I can tutor it (KotR, Crop Rotation, etc) what are the thoughts on Maze of Ith, or on land tutors in general? I'm thinking about just how far a toolbox could be pushed and a part of me really likes the idea of being able to tutor a removal spell. I like Crop Rotations synergy with Nissa, Towers, Courser, and Tracker too. This is one direction I'm considering for a straight GB list to buff up on the remove anything aspect a bit.



I think it depends on the meta. At a large tournament I favor Path. Locally though, everyone has started running a couple basics because of my deck and because Blood Moon is popular. I'm actually on the verge of switching to Swords to Plowshares because I don't like Path getting value.



I take mine out all the time, but this could have to do with the local meta. In fact, I devoted 5 slots in my sideboard specifically to alternate mana sources over my Vets. I take them out all the time, or atleast trim on them. But, I run a really low curve so I can get away with downgrading my ramp.



Vets can block. Alternatively, when Vets are bad I keep alternate ramp sources in my sideboard to swap.



I almost never cut Therapy. But, I'm not shy about cutting Vets.

I have been toying around with blessed alliance and I have to admit I like it a lot, although I'm not sure if it's a must play yet. 4 life is relevant in a 1 rhino build and edict is potent. Yesterday I won through hard cast emrakul vs enchantress thanks to that effect for example.
If you have a flex slot I'd definitely try it.

@path: I thought that was a matter resolved long ago, unless you play sfm and her little friends there's no reason not to play path, I agree with Ricardio and Echelon

@vet: why board them out so much? I only cut em against miracles and high tide, they are so good against goyf decks it's not even funny. At the very least they are a shuffle effect, a moat or tireless tracker fodder. I never dislike having them around.
Against shardless how can you not cut therapies? Doesn't seems optimal sideboarding vs hymn / ts.dec.

[Echelon]

Against shardless how can you not cut therapies? Doesn't seems optimal sideboarding vs hymn / ts.dec.

Well, how bad is having to discard CT from a Hymn..?

Besides, hitting the right cards w/ Therapy means you stop their CA and just run them over.

[rubblekill]

Well, how bad is having to discard CT from a Hymn..?

Besides, hitting the right cards w/ Therapy means you stop their CA and just run them over.

Meh, it's the worst top deck literally. Of course hitting with therapy is good, as it always is, but in a grindfest like that I'd rather board in PWs or something instead of therapies. It's not like they can fly over vet and deny our trigger
I won't keep the card just to hope they hymn us AND hit it

[Echelon]

I won't keep the card just to hope they hymn us AND hit it

I keep it to disrupt their gameplan. Had it come up that I cast T1 Therapy, hitting 2 Hymn and flashing it back T2 to take 2 Goyfs (my opponent had just 1 at first, but he topdecked a second copy). Needless to say I won that game, lol.

Don't get me wrong, that was a beautiful Magical Christmas Land game, but the case it makes remains relevant. Worst case scenario, Therapy will always allow you to strip them from whatever is most disruptive to your gameplan (or they simply don't have it, which is never bad). Best case scenario is a Magical Christmas Land blowout. How is that bad?