Anymore I'd rather buy hq fakes for them expensive RL cards I'll never afford.
This is a serious problem for people who have high value cards and are trying to get back into the game like myself. From what I have read and learned some counterfeit cards are nearly indiscernible from genuine cards. I know mine are genuine because I purchased them when counterfeit cards weren't nearly as sophisticated. I need certain cards for my deck to play well in this format, and want to trade, but don't want to trade my real cards for fakes. Have you guys actually seen fakes that are so sophisticated that you need a loupe to discern the difference? Am I really going to have pull that thing out like a diamond merchant for some playing cards?
Last edited by Moonraker; 01-22-2017 at 12:15 AM.
You could always limit your trades/purchases to cards that show some amount of character after 20+ years of use. Hard to fake that...
I have ever been in contact with 3 cards that, if I didn't know such counterfeits could exist, I would not have questioned. Even more, I questioned them not because something felt wrong, but because I now question ALL valuable cards.Originally Posted by Moonraker
Now and to be fair, these were three cards I didn't have a real copy at hand to compare (but one of them was a revised dual and I have seen and do own my fair share of those).
Using a loupe (30x) allowed discrimination, at least by looking for differences with other real cards. Typically, with the loupe, I was able to tell them apart from the precision / quality of the borders / edges printing (real precise and perfect on actual cards, slightly fuzzy on the counterfeits).
For perfect honesty, looking at the back also gave them away this time without any need for a loupe.
But the point is : yes, the ability to make counterfeits that would fool you on a naked eye is out there. Most of the time the guys doing these must be idiot / suckers at what they do and fuck up on the back, or maybe on another aspect of the card, but they could actually do it right.
So yes, buy a loupe. I got back into the game a few months ago, and buying one is among the first things I did. That and looking out for such counterfeits to gain some experience on what to look for on today's market. And if you trade for costly items, do try to have an actual copy at hand you can compare to (or at least a card from the same set). Use your loupe. Try to look for the sharp edges and borders on the card (of course, also look for text, expansion symbol, everything actually, but don't be reassured if only text and expansion symbol are ok). You can also try to compare the printing rosettes (front and back).
Don't relax / be reassured if you come across horrible fakes. A lot of them are complete trash and yes, you will spot them from a mile away. But some just aren't, and they totally have what it takes to catch you offguard if you let them.
i also definitely wouldn't be reassured by "wear". Exposing a card to intense sunburn, or wear them a bit on the edges, all of this seems quite feasible. I definitely wouldn't want to have to judge a card based on whether its wear is "normal" or "faked". I'd much, much rather judge based on the actual printing quality. With a loupe at hand.
I have no problem with people buying these cards (okay maybe some problem) but people really shouldn't be trading them away or even using them in tournaments. Of course, that's probably wishful thinking. My advice would be to not buy expensive cards from rogue ebay sellers, and do not trade for expensive cards. If you have to buy something like a gaeas cradle, get it from a channel fireball or some other big name store.
I do get a kick out of the finance community freaking out over counterfeits though.
Richard Garfield and the folks at WOTC did not dedicate time and effort into bringing this grand game to us for people to defraud it. A little off topic, but have you ever heard of Baulder's Gate? It was also brought to you by WOTC and it was one of the best RPGs ever made. Too many people pirated it and now it's all but gone.
HP? Hah! All of my duals are beat-to-shit condition asphalt veterans from 1995 playground magic.
When they brought us this great game, decks didn't cost as much as a car.Richard Garfield and the folks at WOTC did not dedicate time and effort into bringing this grand game to us for people to defraud it. A little off topic, but have you ever heard of Baulder's Gate? It was also brought to you by WOTC and it was one of the best RPGs ever made. Too many people pirated it and now it's all but gone.
People should stick with modern then, but don't steal. Free riders stifle creativity and productiveness. The folks at WOTC don't have to waste their efforts to bring us such great games, they could just as easily go fishing instead.
"Go play a different game you don't want to play" is a strange argument. So is "You harm the content producers" when they have publicly promised to never make any effort to profit from their content because they refuse to produce game pieces that are rather important for Eternal play.
What effort is WOTC putting into Legacy and Vintage? It feels like they aren't even trying to make money from Eternal players. The last bone they threw to Eternal players was to make a set designed mainly for Limited and then deign to call it "Eternal Masters" even though most of the creativity and productiveness spent on the set was to fill it with cards that are effectively useless in Eternal. They then followed that up with cutting down on Legacy GP support in Europe and Asia just to make extra sure they have little chance of seeing profit from anyone playing these formats. I don't counterfeit, but I would be reluctant to use your logic in an attempt to dissuade counterfeiters.
If you're not either trying to swindle someone in a trade or passing the cards off as real in a sanctioned event, then there's zero point to owning fakes. "But EDH players!" is a stupid argument because EDH is a joke of a format where you don't need duals to be competitive. "But playtesting!" is another stupid argument; make your own proxies. You can make your own proxies for EDH, too.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Right! All the time and effort they put into reprinting those cards so we could buy them. Oh wait, they really haven't, and in some cases have stated they refuse to make and sell them.
And if you're going to appeal to Richard Garfield, I should point out that he's said that, not counting foils and other special variants, he doesn't think any card should cost more than $20.
Ignoring just how downright goofy that claim about "fishing" is, how about Wizards of the Coast... I don't know... actually sell these cards? Indeed, if they had been doing that instead of refusing to fulfill demand, they'd have much less of a potential problem with counterfeiting.
It's one thing to get on your high horse in regards to counterfeiting or piracy when it's doing so instead of buying something. But Wizards of the Coast isn't selling most of these cards, and in fact has stated that for many, they refuse to do so. Which would already be bad enough, but they also insist you use the official cards in tournaments despite refusing to sell them to you. There's really no moral high ground for Wizards of the Coast to take here.
I think people will always want what they can't have. Even if modern cards got super cheap, then people will want legacy stuff, and then power nine, ect. And then there's always counterfeit rolex watches and fancy purses/shoes.
quality of the counterfeit cards are getting better every year,
when i buy something like duals are preferred it to be a sp or hp sometimes
Live and Let Live
I think you're missing my point. I'm not as much interested in dissuading anyone as I am in pointing out what is happening. You can equivocate about WOTC's business practices all day, but it doesn't change that fact that counterfeiting something to pass it off as genuine is deceptive. When someone trades or sells anything ostensibly genuine, and the person receiving said item(s) does not receive a genuine product it has a cascading effect on the entire industry. Not only does it devalue the product, it also reduces the motivation to create those same type of products. That is the real tragedy I'm getting at. If someone wants to be a swindler that is their agenda.
I agree. I think the moral point here gets overlooked by most people. If you use a counterfeit card in a situation where the opponent is led to believe it is real -- whether that be in a tournament, a trade, or purchase -- then you are lying to them.
With respect to tournament use, the pro-counterfeit crowd will argue variously that: (1) we're not hurting anyone; (2) WOTC is to blame because the cards are too expensive; or (3) we're actually helping boost eternal format attendance. These arguments are what they are, but all of them take the form of: "Yes, I am lying to my opponent, but it's OK because..."
If one does not want to be forced to use real cards, then the real solution is to use playtest cards,* not counterfeits, and then just have unsanctioned events.
* = As defined by WotC, these are cards that would not pass as genuine under even the most casual inspection in a relevant context. Sharpied basic lands, custom art created cards, hand-drawn World Championship blanks, etc.
Pretty weak attempt at justifying a disturbing trend. Can I trade you my piece of paper for your nostalgic memorabilia?
Calling a duck a duck is not getting on a high horse. If you put a card in front of them and claiming it is genuine, when you know it is not, you're lying. I realize it is uncomfortable to admit that if you engage in this conduct or if you think that others doing it will serve a greater good, but call a duck a duck. It quacks.
Additionally, of course, your argument does not get off the ground because everyone CAN buy these cards. Unless we're talking about Fraternal Exultation or something, the cards are available for purchase on the secondary market. The barrier is simply that the prices are too high. There are some who would argue that annoyance that a luxury item is priced too high is insufficient justification for lying.
EDIT: The academics here may enjoy discussing the difference between Virtue Ethics and Utilitarianism as it relates to this issue. For my part, I've always thought both schools of thought were valid, but concerned with different questions. Virtue Ethics asks if something is morally good or bad, based largely on how it exhibits an accepted virtue, whereas utilitarianism asks whether a course of conduct is justified. Something can be good and unjustified (giving food to someone who is about to die regardless) as well as bad and justified (withholding food from that person because someone else could make better use of it).
There is no utility in losing the creative genius behind these games. Not to say these creative minds aren't acting from purely altruistic motives, only that people who trade in counterfeits potentially risk more than they realize.
Last edited by Moonraker; 01-27-2017 at 01:26 AM.
For a "weak attempt," your counterargument is surprisingly... not good. Or even sensical.
I am unsure how this relates at all to what I said that you quoted. I pointed out that the ordinary argument as to why piracy and copying is wrong or whatever is because the original creator put work into it, so you should be buying it and supporting them. So, for example, if you just download a copy of Adobe Photoshop instead of buying it, you aren't giving Adobe support for the work they put into the product.
The problem is that in this case, you are not supporting the creator of the work by buying Reserved List cards. Wizards of the Coast gets no money from that. For an in-print card one can claim they at least make the money "indirectly" by booster pack sales (that people then open up and sell as singles) but again, not for cards that aren't in print.
I don't see how this duck and quacking has anything to do with what I said. My point was it's awfully hard to talk about how much it "hurts" Wizards of the Coast to be getting copies of something they are not actually selling and in some cases have said they will never sell again. It's like downloading abandonware, which costs the owning companies (if they're even still in business) a grand total of 0¢.
What does this have to do with my statement at all? You again seem to be attacking an argument I did not make. Are you living in some alternate reality where I said something I didn't in this reality?Additionally, of course, your argument does not get off the ground because everyone CAN buy these cards. Unless we're talking about Fraternal Exultation or something, the cards are available for purchase on the secondary market. The barrier is simply that the prices are too high. There are some who would argue that annoyance that a luxury item is priced too high is insufficient justification for lying.
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