All B/R update speculation.

[aspsnake]

Banning DRS in Modern was a great move by Wizards because much like everyone here says, it just gives blue a mana dork with graveyard protections. It's all around great and the worst part is you don't even need to use it in BG shells, it fits very well in anything with UB. I don't know about it being too good in Legacy, there are a few other cards I'd hit first, but I think it was a great ban for Modern so maybe it would be good here too. I don't think black should have access to good mana dorks without green.

As for banning Monastery Mentor because Miracles and BUG midrange are on the rise, I don't think that makes any sense. Brainstorm makes way more sense since it hits Miracles HARD as well as every other (far over-represented) blue deck medium hard. Mentor is annoying but you abuse it by cantripping, so removing the Draw 3 makes by far the most sense. Sure, double top makes a lot of mentor tokens as well, but the consistency of hitting that would be less without the fix-all in brainstorm. Getting Terminus in your opening hand would be a mulligan instead of what it is right now (not detrimental). Also, Delver decks would take a huge hit by not guaranteeing the flip (off of Brainstorm...).

Now that's a really bizarre suggestion. Legacy is the format of FoW and Brainstorm, just like Modern is the format of Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile. Banning of Brainstorm would put the whole format upside down, making combo decks overly dominant (due to a huge reduction of amount of blue decks) and almost making it an ANT/BR Reanimator format, this is exactly what I personally wouldn't want to happen

[Barachai]

Now that's a really bizarre suggestion. Legacy is the format of FoW and Brainstorm, just like Modern is the format of Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile. Banning of Brainstorm would put the whole format upside down, making combo decks overly dominant (due to a huge reduction of amount of blue decks) and almost making it an ANT/BR Reanimator format, this is exactly what I personally wouldn't want to happen

There are plenty of ways and decks that hate on combo that do not involve blue (chalice bitching, anyone?). This is aside from ponder and preordain actually being very good cards that would still see a ton of play.

The idea that brainstorm prevents some kind of combo-hellhole is strange; the most obvious effect in favor of combo is that now their thoughtseize/duress is really REALLY good, but it already was pretty good. Other than that, Thalia and Chalice still exist, have fun.

[rlesko]

I agree that deathrite is a completely absurd warping card. I hate it. It's a piece of shit. It just gives blue a mana dork which they didn't need. Combine that with its grave hate ability and basically any deck that tries to use the graveyard as a second resource to operate in a fair way is completely awful. Loam is the only thing still around and that's because you can derp out a 20/20. Zombie stuff was pretty cool. Vengevine is fun but unplayable. Lingering Souls sees very little play despite its power against both of the top decks in miracles and BUG. That and enabling insane 4 color mana bases that includes wasteland is completely absurd.

+1 on the train! woohoo!

Banning DRS in Modern was a great move by Wizards because much like everyone here says, it just gives blue a mana dork with graveyard protections. It's all around great and the worst part is you don't even need to use it in BG shells, it fits very well in anything with UB. I don't know about it being too good in Legacy, there are a few other cards I'd hit first, but I think it was a great ban for Modern so maybe it would be good here too. I don't think black should have access to good mana dorks without green.

As for banning Monastery Mentor because Miracles and BUG midrange are on the rise, I don't think that makes any sense. Brainstorm makes way more sense since it hits Miracles HARD as well as every other (far over-represented) blue deck medium hard. Mentor is annoying but you abuse it by cantripping, so removing the Draw 3 makes by far the most sense. Sure, double top makes a lot of mentor tokens as well, but the consistency of hitting that would be less without the fix-all in brainstorm. Getting Terminus in your opening hand would be a mulligan instead of what it is right now (not detrimental). Also, Delver decks would take a huge hit by not guaranteeing the flip (off of Brainstorm...).

I feel like I need to clarify some of your statement. DRS wasn't banned in modern for any interaction with blue decks. it was banned because jund was like 40% of the meta so they axed BBE and deathrite. In legacy I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis - why does UB get a lavamancer + birds of paradise hybrid?

Not really wanting to delve into brainstorm discussion, but thats still not necessarily a mulligan because Jace has text, too. Also I can't get behind mentor banning at the moment, though the power level on that card is stupidly high.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Now that's a really bizarre suggestion. Legacy is the format of FoW and Brainstorm, just like Modern is the format of Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile. Banning of Brainstorm would put the whole format upside down, making combo decks overly dominant (due to a huge reduction of amount of blue decks) and almost making it an ANT/BR Reanimator format, this is exactly what I personally wouldn't want to happen

ANT use brainstorm just as effectively (or even more so than some decks) to hide their key pieces. Every deck likes a Draw 3, so the only one among that list that wouldn't get hit by BS ban is BR reanimator, and seriously there are more than enough options to hate them out with your sideboard. That's like saying Dredge would be the undisputed best deck if BS is gone.

Also, Modern banning Lightning Bolt or Path wouldn't really be a huge deal IMO, but I'm in the minority there I'm sure.

I feel like I need to clarify some of your statement. DRS wasn't banned in modern for any interaction with blue decks. it was banned because jund was like 40% of the meta so they axed BBE and deathrite. In legacy I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis - why does UB get a lavamancer + birds of paradise hybrid?

True, it was more because Jund/BG were monsters, but sooo many UB decks ran it too. It was starting to go in as many decks as Goyf when he hit legacy.

Not really wanting to delve into brainstorm discussion, but thats still not necessarily a mulligan because Jace has text, too. Also I can't get behind mentor banning at the moment, though the power level on that card is stupidly high.

Sure, but Jace is turn 4 at best. Making sure your opening 7 is relevant before turn 4 is something I shouldn't need to stress in a format that has decks like SnT and reanimator.

[rlesko]

Sure, but Jace is turn 4 at best. Making sure your opening 7 is relevant before turn 4 is something I shouldn't need to stress in a format that has decks like SnT and reanimator.

I am only saying the presence of a single miracle card is not necessarily an auto mulligan if the rest of your hand is strong (top, stp, etc). If you're getting into the 2+ miracle hands with a brainstorm thats quite a gambit to keep since that hand is already punishable by the current meta, especially if you're not on the play.

[Dice_Box]

Now that's a really bizarre suggestion. Legacy is the format of FoW and Brainstorm, just like Modern is the format of Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile. Banning of Brainstorm would put the whole format upside down, making combo decks overly dominant (due to a huge reduction of amount of blue decks) and almost making it an ANT/BR Reanimator format, this is exactly what I personally wouldn't want to happen

Your new here, so let me give you this one for free. Brainstorm is this threads version of "Who's your political party, the MTG edition." I suggest not getting involved in that talk. It really never goes anywhere pleasent, the same people argue over the same points and nothing of value is gained or lost. Basically people yell for 3 days, someone gets reported and I come in here and nuke half the posts.

If you do want to talk about this though, I honestly do suggest reading the past 25 pages or so. It's actually amusing, we all make fools of ourselves and you will have a decent understanding of what your getting yourself into.

[non-inflammable]

Not piling on, I was practicing restraint earlier.

Banning of Brainstorm would put the whole format upside down,]

And where would all the skill intensive blue mages go to study the brainstorm/fetch technique?

Maybe they could add to the diversity of legacy instead of starting every deck with several islands, blue fetches and 4 brainstorm.
You know... there are other colors in magic...

[taconaut]

I've always wished that the people who post here would say more about what they want legacy to look like - it seems like everything is hated by at least one person, so maybe legacy can reasonably be considered diverse enough?

I mean, I hate chalice and counterbalance as much as (probably even more than...) the next guy, but I feel like getting rid of either of them, or brainstorm, would reduce some of the coolness of the format. I love both brainstorming into the nuts with ANT and using it to set up sweet plays with Miracles, but I also like playing Dredge; also, I get why people enjoy spaghetti-ing people with chalice and locking others down with thalia, even though I personally don't enjoy either. I feel like I have friends who have success doing all of these things, despite the existence of miracles, so I guess my question is, what are the frustrated people missing? Not enough Pox and Goblins or something?

[jimmythegreek]

I've always wished that the people who post here would say more about what they want legacy to look like - it seems like everything is hated by at least one person, so maybe legacy can reasonably be considered diverse enough?

I mean, I hate chalice and counterbalance as much as (probably even more than...) the next guy, but I feel like getting rid of either of them, or brainstorm, would reduce some of the coolness of the format. I love both brainstorming into the nuts with ANT and using it to set up sweet plays with Miracles, but I also like playing Dredge; also, I get why people enjoy spaghetti-ing people with chalice and locking others down with thalia, even though I personally don't enjoy either. I feel like I have friends who have success doing all of these things, despite the existence of miracles, so I guess my question is, what are the frustrated people missing? Not enough Pox and Goblins or something?

I think what frustrates people now more than before is that imho come back scenarios seem fewer and far between. People now have the ability to pull farther ahead (power creep) than before.

[rlesko]

I've always wished that the people who post here would say more about what they want legacy to look like - it seems like everything is hated by at least one person, so maybe legacy can reasonably be considered diverse enough?

I mean, I hate chalice and counterbalance as much as (probably even more than...) the next guy, but I feel like getting rid of either of them, or brainstorm, would reduce some of the coolness of the format. I love both brainstorming into the nuts with ANT and using it to set up sweet plays with Miracles, but I also like playing Dredge; also, I get why people enjoy spaghetti-ing people with chalice and locking others down with thalia, even though I personally don't enjoy either. I feel like I have friends who have success doing all of these things, despite the existence of miracles, so I guess my question is, what are the frustrated people missing? Not enough Pox and Goblins or something?

I agree with this, and it definitely shows you have good perspective. I don't want the format to be only what I like. Getting chalice'd sucks but I don't think it should get banned. I posted on the previous page but I think deathrite is starting to hinder deckbuilding. 4x Deathrite + 4x Decay is starting to become a norm for blue and nonblue decks which play alongside way too many things including but not limited to elves, delvers (bug or grixis) , shardless agents (shardless bug), true name nemeses (true name bug), aluren, or knight of the reliquary (maverick). This core is way too ubiquitous for my tastes. Give shaman the axe then see how the meta evolves.

[Quasim0ff]

First off i don't see shardless running away with the format right now. So even a deck that its most used in isn't outperforming. Furthermore, the utility of DRS is not oppressive like mental misstep. If you want to argue that it reduces format diversity it must rise to a level similar to mental misstep because i think that was the last card banned based on that evaluation, or at least for a similar reason. It increases format diversity by giving green / black the ability to splash other colors. Additionally, there are other cards that decrease format diversity much more than DRS...(see: brainstorm / force of will)

Deathrite definatly reduce format diversity; I am not sure it's for the worse, because the card basically only interacts with opponents. The format is warping around deathrite to a large degree currently. Look at the number of delver decks running around - they all function because of deathrite (4c more than grixis more than bug.)

[rlesko]

Deathrite definatly reduce format diversity; I am not sure it's for the worse, because the card basically only interacts with opponents. The format is warping around deathrite to a large degree currently. Look at the number of delver decks running around - they all function because of deathrite (4c more than grixis more than bug.)

Aside from the 4c variants, I think all of the flavors of delver rely on different cards to function (none of them deathrite). For grixis I think its mainly because of pyromancer / probe / therapy. For BUG delver its more about decay / hymn / tarmogoyf. RUG obviously doesn't rely on deathrite since it doesn't even play it. Thats part of the reason I think its a safe ban.

[taconaut]

I think what frustrates people now more than before is that imho come back scenarios seem fewer and far between. People now have the ability to pull farther ahead (power creep) than before.

I think this could contribute to it, but, at least speaking only for myself, I've had some sweet comebacks with both ANT and Miracles, and I think they are possible in the abstract. Certainly, a G1 against Eldrazi that includes the classic, "sol land, chalice, sol land, TKS" is pretty rough from ANT's perspective, but I have even won games that went that way with good draws.

There definitely is some power creep, but I'm not sure it's the main offender.

(also, I don't want to downplay it too much, as your experience might be different than mine - what decks do you play?)

I agree with this, and it definitely shows you have good perspective.

Thanks, I try to just have fun with it, and if I don't, there's always Draft and EDH.

4x Deathrite + 4x Decay is starting to become a norm for blue and nonblue decks which play alongside way too many things including but not limited to elves, delvers (bug or grixis), shardless agents (shardless bug), true name nemeses (true name bug), aluren, or knight of the reliquary (maverick). This core is way too ubiquitous for my tastes. Give shaman the axe then see how the meta evolves.

I can't speak for anyone else, and I suspect I will be accused of similar sins as the Brainstorm apologists, but I feel that Elves, Delver, Shardless, TNN BUG, Aluren, and Maverick are all wildly different strategies, and each have enough interesting nuaces that I am pretty fine with DRS/AD playing a role in all of them. At some level, you have to play the best cards to compete, and DRS and AD are both fundamentally fair, if powerful, cards. To me, it seems like something has to be really, truly ridiculous in a fundamental way to be worth banning, in the way that Mishra's Workshop or Black Lotus is.

Now, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to play vintage on account of those things being available, so that subset of cards has its own appeal, but I think Legacy wants to be slightly more fair than that.

[Megadeus]

Aside from the 4c variants, I think all of the flavors of delver rely on different cards to function (none of them deathrite). For grixis I think its mainly because of pyromancer / probe / therapy. For BUG delver its more about decay / hymn / tarmogoyf. RUG obviously doesn't rely on deathrite since it doesn't even play it. Thats part of the reason I think its a safe ban.

Disagree. Those decks rely on deathrite just to ramp. Turn 2 after an untap with deathrite allows pyromancer, probe, therapy your best two cards whereas that play is far less absurd on turn 3 because they didn't get a dork. Also deathrite is the enabler for these delver decks being able to be so efficient despite their higher number of 2 mana cards like goyf, decay, hymn, tombstalker. Of course it's all put nearly together by brainstorm, but deathrite is a serious offender in my eyes. It has created the sense to me at least that if I'm on the draw against a deathrite and don't have the removal on turn 1, I'm already too far behind and the game is over.

[rlesko]

Disagree. Those decks rely on deathrite just to ramp. Turn 2 after an untap with deathrite allows pyromancer, probe, therapy your best two cards whereas that play is far less absurd on turn 3 because they didn't get a dork. Also deathrite is the enabler for these delver decks being able to be so efficient despite their higher number of 2 mana cards like goyf, decay, hymn, tombstalker. Of course it's all put nearly together by brainstorm, but deathrite is a serious offender in my eyes. It has created the sense to me at least that if I'm on the draw against a deathrite and don't have the removal on turn 1, I'm already too far behind and the game is over.

Do you mean to say, they don't just rely on deathrite to ramp? I think we agree, actually. Giving grixis birds of paradise in the earlier turns and grim lavamancer in the later turns is pretty busted - but I still think grixis delver is more centered around the pyro - probe - therapy trio, a combination of cards that like you spelled out is absolutely devestating if it gets going a turn ahead of schedule. The bug delver (team america) decks historically have always seemed to be sorcery speed type of decks with a higher curve. They used to run things like sinkhole and goyf without any acceleration.

[Gheizen64]

I agree with this, and it definitely shows you have good perspective. I don't want the format to be only what I like. Getting chalice'd sucks but I don't think it should get banned. I posted on the previous page but I think deathrite is starting to hinder deckbuilding. 4x Deathrite + 4x Decay is starting to become a norm for blue and nonblue decks which play alongside way too many things including but not limited to elves, delvers (bug or grixis) , shardless agents (shardless bug), true name nemeses (true name bug), aluren, or knight of the reliquary (maverick). This core is way too ubiquitous for my tastes. Give shaman the axe then see how the meta evolves.

Is this a joke?

We've had 70%+ meta penetration of BS for the last what, 4 years, and DRS and AD are problematic because they "homogeneize decks" at what, 60% penetration the last 6 months? You know what homogeneize deck? Ancestral recall being legal as a 4-of in this format, cause there's officially no reason to play anything else.

BS + fetches is grossly overpowered and is especially gross at enabling super-greedy multicolor strategies (BUG and 4c shells) and decks with multiple main-hand draws duds (SnT and miracles), which are all super-greedy decks in term of deck constructions that get punished a lot less than they should be. Remove brainstorm and 4C/BUG, miracle and SnT would be much more consistently punishable or would have to run fairer manabases (in the case of 4c/BUG which run WASTELANDS ffs) or less duds/worse way to reshuffle cards in hand (miracle/SnT decks). BS being also one of the major reasons for why combo is so good being gone wouldn't be too bad.

There are literally half a dozen cards that would warp the format nowhere as brainstorm does that are still banned jfc

/r

[Nielsie]

Yeah that is true, but BS is a pillar of the format...

Seriously, if Shaman was printed in Ice Age and Brainstorm in Return to Ravnica. Shaman would have been the pillar and BS was long banned... This is just about nostalgia and fear of losing old toys or newer toys invalidating old toys...

[Zombie]

New toys invalidating old ones, poor Survival. No one plays Necrotic Ooze or Vengevine and Survival is dead :/

[Megadeus]

Do you mean to say, they don't just rely on deathrite to ramp? I think we agree, actually. Giving grixis birds of paradise in the earlier turns and grim lavamancer in the later turns is pretty busted - but I still think grixis delver is more centered around the pyro - probe - therapy trio, a combination of cards that like you spelled out is absolutely devestating if it gets going a turn ahead of schedule. The bug delver (team america) decks historically have always seemed to be sorcery speed type of decks with a higher curve. They used to run things like sinkhole and goyf without any acceleration.

Yes this is true, but the Pyro, Therapy, Probe combo isn't OP. On turn 2 it kinda of is though, and probe is the main offender there. But deathrite is far more important for that deck because without it, the trio is too slow for much of the format. We both agree on the power of Deathrite, but none of these decks would be nearly as viable without it. Of course we're here arguing over probably the worst of the deathrite fueled greedy decks too. TA traditionally has been bigger on two drops, but deathrite giving you a turn 2 push your dude, drop a goyf, or waste you and drop a goyf, or push/ponder/waste on turn 2 is insane. It's just making the format incredibly streamlining and efficient to the point that there's no room to really do much else other than try to draw more deathrites than the opponent

[Teluin]

This is just about nostalgia and fear of losing old toys or newer toys invalidating old toys...

I generally tend to avoid this topic (and thus this thread), as I think there are several issues with the format and they rarely get talked about because of Brainstorm debates/arguments. While I am not saying I am against banning the card, I do think that we should be reminded of how the Vintage community #s dropped after Brainstorm got Restricted. Legacy is not a cheap format, and many people have invested into their one deck because of Brainstorm. I know that doesn't translate to the quality of the format, but a serious drop in player #s and interest can and does affect Wizards' support of it, which isn't exactly stellar as it is.