[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Hummingbird TG]

Sorry, no time for German Legacy Champs, because my daughter was born.


Now I took the time to play the "Gaming, Etc. Revised Dual-Constructed" Tournament at PT Berlin.

My list during tournament:

Dark Weenie (60)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold (2 wins)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
1 Figure of Destiny (i had only 1 )
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Vindicate
3 Silver Knight
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ajani Goldmane (Never Seen.)

Sideboard (15)

4 Tidehollow Sculler (Next time maindeck.)
3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

______________

Matchups
UWB Fish Draw
Sui Black Win
Eva Green Win
UGR Threshold Win
Armageddon Stax Win
Dreaded Fish? Lost
UW Landstill Win
Merfolk Win

Congratulations on your daughter!

About the deck though, you may want to go through a few card choices which seem slightly suspect, and perhaps a tournament report to give us an idea how the deck works? For one, I'm not sure what Ajani does in there (I know you said you never saw them, but what was your original intention for them?), nor how this wins other than by Jitte advantage...

Looking forward to a reply!

--Regards,

HummingbirdTG

[Aboroth]

@Hummingbird: Sorry, swaddling our baby is atm more important than writing a detailed report. But you're right, playing ajani was only a test without any results. And I'm convinced that it doesnt work. The effects are not good enough for 4 mana. But actually I think about another Planeswalker: Elspeth, Knight-Errant... My intention with ajani was to use life and the "overrun effect" against aggro and the avatar effect against control.

In the majority of cases you dont need a jitte. 2 Bears ore one Avenger/grunt are enough.

Which card choices seem suspect to you? Please give reasons.

[raharu]

@Hummingbird: Sorry, swaddling our baby is atm more important than writing a detailed report. But you're right, playing ajani was only a test without any results. And I'm convinced that it doesnt work. The effects are not good enough for 4 mana. But actually I think about another Planeswalker: Elspeth, Knight-Errant... My intention with ajani was to use life and the "overrun effect" against aggro and the avatar effect against control.

In the majority of cases you dont need a jitte. 2 Bears ore one Avenger/grunt are enough.

Which card choices seem suspect to you? Please give reasons.

I've always been happy to see Ajani when I've run it. Making Confidants and Mothers into actual threats is always nice. Personally, from that list I'd consider something like this:

-1 Avenger, +1 Mother of Runes (I could never consider playing less than 4. MoR just makes things happen, and the 4th Avenger seems like it could clog your opening hands a lot.)
-3 Silver Knights, -1 Figure of Destiny/ Lynx, +4 Tidehollow Sculler (more disruption can't possibly be a bad thing, with 2/2s it generally doesn't matter if they have first strike, as they typically end up blocking larger creatures, and Knight's better Jitte-wielding is offset by the fact that if you have an active Jitte, it's going to be good wherever you put it. Personally, I'd keep the Lynx and drop the Figure, but I presume that's a personal/ meta call).

Outside of that, I really like the list and if I get back to testing the BW confidant agro archetype I'll prolly start from your list.

[Aboroth]

raharu: Note, you cant have enough avenger. With vial it comes earlier into play. And its one of the most effective creatures in this deck.

I played Silver Knight because of Gobbos. But today I think, I dont need them.

4 Mothers would clog my hand. Its a creature to support the others, but it doesnt kill my opponents. 3 are enough.

Now I nhave this List:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold (2 wins)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Vindicate
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard (15)

3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

There are 4 cards missing in SB. Any ideas?

[ebbitten]

plague?

[Blitzbold]

I would strongly consider Cabal Therapy to strengthen your combo-matchup. Plague might be good, but you have to know for yourself which tribal you're afraid about.

Disenchant seems to be a bit old-school, but there aren't very many alternatives. And why don't you play the 4th Vindicate MD?

[Hummingbird TG]

@Hummingbird: Sorry, swaddling our baby is atm more important than writing a detailed report. But you're right, playing ajani was only a test without any results. And I'm convinced that it doesnt work. The effects are not good enough for 4 mana. But actually I think about another Planeswalker: Elspeth, Knight-Errant... My intention with ajani was to use life and the "overrun effect" against aggro and the avatar effect against control.

In the majority of cases you dont need a jitte. 2 Bears ore one Avenger/grunt are enough.

Which card choices seem suspect to you? Please give reasons.

Well, first, as you mentioned, Ajani. But more importantly I think Figure of Destiny (where'd you get the mana for it to make it good?), 3 Jotun Grunt main (I'm not sure if you have enough graveyard action to feed him...). Also, the bears like Spectral Lynx and Silver Knight seem only good with Jitte (especially Spectral Lynx; else all he is is a wall for Goyf...)

I also don't understand the Duress over Thoughtseize. Is there any special metagame reason or other reason for this?

[Aboroth]

@blitzbold: Plague is an idea. Elves are comming back.^^
I'll never miss disenchant. You need instant speed (stick). And vindicate is too slow for affinity or stiflenought.
The 4th vindicate is in the most cases too expensive for this manabase. Only against slower decks it makes sense.
I like cabal therapy, but duress is more useful in my strategy.
CU @ Rostock next time?

@hummingbird: Figure of Destiny bashed for victory 8/8 against armageddon stax. Earlier I played Savannah Lions and Isamaru. You cant compare them with FoD. Its even better. In Lategame you have 3 white Mana.

3 Jotun Grunt main (I'm not sure if you have enough graveyard action to feed him...) No, but my opponents. Its a metachoice. Over 30% in Germany are Threshold.

Spectral Lynx blocks mongoose and goyf and runs through them and walls. Also the regeneration works well against burn and Deed.

Silver Knight was matchwinner against gobbos. But today there are not much gobbos.

[Tao]

I think this is the wrong thread for the discussion. B/w Deadguy is a Sinkhole/Hymn/Ritual - disruption based heavy black deck with a light W splash for Vindicate and maybe Swords. The deck you are discussing is a White Weenie deck with a B Splash for Confidant and a bit disruption. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticiuzing the lists - I just think they do belong in a different thread.

What do you think about the White Version (compared to Eva Green) in the current Meta? Nearly all decks in the Meta play with Tarmo/Stalker/Dreadnought so StoP and Vindicate are good solutions.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Scrubland
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [R] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

[rsaunder]

The problem with the white version compared to the green one is goyf. Yes, STP and vindicate are amazing, but goyf is just so nuts that it's worth splashing green in a deck like this for him. Any deck that starts off:

4 goyf
4 vindicate
4 STP

Will probably win games.

The other problem is confidant. Tombstalker is amazing, and prevents you from running your him as your draw engine. Adding SDT doesnt fix the problem, I know because I've tried. SDT is a tempo black hole in a tempo deck like this, as is Bob.

[raharu]

The other problem is confidant. Tombstalker is amazing, and prevents you from running your him as your draw engine. Adding SDT doesnt fix the problem, I know because I've tried. SDT is a tempo black hole in a tempo deck like this, as is Bob.

That's explicitly a matter of opinion.

[Tao]

The problem with the white version compared to the green one is goyf. Yes, STP and vindicate are amazing, but goyf is just so nuts that it's worth splashing green in a deck like this for him. Any deck that starts off:

4 goyf
4 vindicate
4 STP

I think making this deck 3-colored has been proven impossible by now. Eva Green would be improved by StoP and Vindicate and this would be improved by Tarmo but the deck concept requires 4 Wasteland which makes splashing 2 colors too unconsistent.

The other problem is confidant. Tombstalker is amazing, and prevents you from running your him as your draw engine. Adding SDT doesnt fix the problem, I know because I've tried. SDT is a tempo black hole in a tempo deck like this, as is Bob.

There is no big problem with Stalker and Confi. The average mana cost is even with Stalker pretty low and chances that you reveal one without Top are very slim and even that won't lose immediately (though it is definetely not good).
I know that SDT is bad for the tempo and I can understand that some people will cut it. But on the other hand it synergizes with the Resource Denial because you often get both players into Top deck mode and Top keeps the pain taken from Bob in check. Top can also change dead draws in midgame like Discard or LD into the the disruption or threat you need.
Another recent advantage of the BW version is being immune against Snuff Out which sees more and more play.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I think this is the wrong thread for the discussion. B/w Deadguy is a Sinkhole/Hymn/Ritual - disruption based heavy black deck with a light W splash for Vindicate and maybe Swords. The deck you are discussing is a White Weenie deck with a B Splash for Confidant and a bit disruption. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticiuzing the lists - I just think they do belong in a different thread.

What do you think about the White Version (compared to Eva Green) in the current Meta? Nearly all decks in the Meta play with Tarmo/Stalker/Dreadnought so StoP and Vindicate are good solutions.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Scrubland
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [R] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

This is pretty much what I was going with with my last crack at deadguy as well. However, I made the changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top

+1 Swords
+3 Smallpox

Top was underwhelming when I was testing it a while ago and the additional utility brought by Smallpox has been very nice.

[raharu]

Sidenote: Deadguy ale isn't a tempo deck, it's a resource denial deck and a board control deck. Calling it tempo is incorrect, so saying that SDT is bad for tempo is irrelevant because the deck isn't trying to produce tempo. SDT is strong in the late game where you're having issues finding what you need to maintain board position, or you need to dig for a threat, or removal, and giving you access to resources 3 turns away, on top of letting you see 6 cards with a shuffle effect (that's one tenth of your starting deck count, in case you somehow think 6 cards isn't a fuckton of cards) is a huge boon to a deck such as this.

[Aboroth]

I think this is the wrong thread for the discussion. B/w Deadguy is a Sinkhole/Hymn/Ritual - disruption based heavy black deck with a light W splash for Vindicate and maybe Swords. The deck you are discussing is a White Weenie deck with a B Splash for Confidant and a bit disruption. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticiuzing the lists - I just think they do belong in a different thread.

It's OK. You're absolutly right. But thanks for your input.^^

I moved to this Thread

[ToxicToast]

So, Tidehollow Sculler. Amazing or what? The list I've been working with is much more similar to the earlier builds that were heavy black and heavier resource denial instead of the more modern white heavy aggro-ish builds.

I think I need help with the sideboard, as it stands it's kind of weak and I never know what to board out.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Scrubland
7 [SHM] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[Valarne]

So, Tidehollow Sculler. Amazing or what? The list I've been working with is much more similar to the earlier builds that were heavy black and heavier resource denial instead of the more modern white heavy aggro-ish builds.

I think I need help with the sideboard, as it stands it's kind of weak and I never know what to board out.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Scrubland
7 [SHM] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Is your creature setup working for you? I would think that, besides Confidant, all your beaters are a bit conditional. I run a couple of Specters, Scullers, playsets of Exalted Angels and Confidants (and 1 Tombstalker). Angels for good beats.
Sideboard: I understand Jitte, since you're not running Angel, needing to consider lifegain. Leyline and Plague are good all-round answers as well.
Disenchant I'm not convinced about though. For what use?
I use Engineered Explosives, as an extra SB-permanent-removal besides Vindicate, I find it much more useful.

Siding out: This is hard to answer. Besides the games where we have obviously bad cards, such as discard against Ichorid, then I think it can be useful thinking through your decks gameplan, against your opponents. Early disrupting power that we do have, shouldnt be compromised in sideboarding, if it theoretically damages the opponent. Only insert really key sideboard cards, and remove only cards that either aren't central in your own strategy, or are unimportant in the match-up.

[rsaunder]

Sidenote: Deadguy ale isn't a tempo deck, it's a resource denial deck and a board control deck. Calling it tempo is incorrect, so saying that SDT is bad for tempo is irrelevant because the deck isn't trying to produce tempo. SDT is strong in the late game where you're having issues finding what you need to maintain board position, or you need to dig for a threat, or removal, and giving you access to resources 3 turns away, on top of letting you see 6 cards with a shuffle effect (that's one tenth of your starting deck count, in case you somehow think 6 cards isn't a fuckton of cards) is a huge boon to a deck such as this.

Quite honestly, I don't think classic resource denial works now. Destroying lands and hands isn't all that effective since almost every deck in the format runs enough cantrips to use your discard as simply tempo against you and fetchlands to play around sinkhole. This deck likes to disrupt its opponent enough to land a creature or two and then remove the opponent's creatures and try to prevent them from stabilizing. If this isn't how the deck works anymore I guess it's been a while, but to me that's tempo in its most basic form.

If the deck was really purely resource denial like that, I'd suggest smokestack and crucible of worlds.

[Hummingbird TG]

@Valarne, what's your latest list? The previous one posted don't use Tidehollow Scullers, it seems...are they useful? It seems to me that the opponent can just kill them and instantly they have their best card back, so it's just a removal magnet, and you can hardly even use it to block for fear it dies and you give your opponent back their card...

@ToxicToast: Do you have a problem hitting white mana with so many sources that only produce black (especially against an opponent playing Wasteland to deter fetching Scrubland), seeing as you run 8 creatures which need white, 4 of which want to come out early, and total of 15 cards white? (If so, consider white fetches and a single plains?)

[Valarne]

@Valarne, what's your latest list? The previous one posted don't use Tidehollow Scullers, it seems...are they useful? It seems to me that the opponent can just kill them and instantly they have their best card back, so it's just a removal magnet, and you can hardly even use it to block for fear it dies and you give your opponent back their card...

@ToxicToast: Do you have a problem hitting white mana with so many sources that only produce black (especially against an opponent playing Wasteland to deter fetching Scrubland), seeing as you run 8 creatures which need white, 4 of which want to come out early, and total of 15 cards white? (If so, consider white fetches and a single plains?)

Hi Hummingbird. Well I'm tweaking in different ways these days. Trying to tune-up before going to an approx 100 people tournament next weekend. I'm expecting a lot of ANT, 3c Zoo/Sligh, StifleNought and a decent amount of Thresh, Ichorid and Goblins, as they always seem to show up. Besides that, I'm kinda anticipating a lot of semi-rogue stuff and burn, so in short I want to be maindeck prepared for stuff that usually hurts; combo, swarms of critters and Thresh. StifleNought I usually have spot-removal enough for, as it is. Sideboard is right now:
4 Chalice, 4 Engineered Plague (these ones pretty much carved in stone)
2 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate (!)

Maindeck notes: I tested Sculler for some weeks, but because of my high artifact-count in the SB, I became a bit tired of the dissynergy between Chrome Mox and Sculler. I do believe it can be viable though. Cut for now. This leads to my current, and not-so-tested oldschool tech of running 3 Gerrards Verdict. These are thought of as Mox fodder early-game, and midgame forcing opponent to go topdeckmode, plus with these as manafix, I allow myself to run 17 lands. I think its gonna be good. I'm trying out no Tombstalker at all, and instead 2 Jotun Grunt for beats alongside the playset of Angels, trying to improve Thresh MU, and lowering the CC of the deck, so that SDT might be boarded out in some matches, with less peril. Last tweak-in-progress: Running 2 Engineered Explosives main - this is to ward of hordes especially. Not sure about 1 or 2 though. I tested 1 and 2 Extirpate main-deck, with default use as taking fetches and duals. I am unsure wether I should test more. What is your experience with this? The 1 Extirpate in the SB is gonna be either 2 or 0, dont know yet.

List:
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox
2 Engineered Explosives