@caenel
Pretty much all you need to know, just one page back.Hulk revelark explained
The lark kill doesn't need Body Snatcher, although I think it still might be useful for the situation where a combo piece gets stuck in your hand.
Kill Package:
1 Lark
1 Body Double
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Reveillark
Optional:
1 Body Snatcher (combo pieces in hand)
1 Benevolent Bodyguard (beats multiple removal spells)
1 Body Double (2 total) (also beats multiple non-STP/PtE removal spells, is insurance against pitching the first Body Double to Force of Will)
Steps:
1) Hulk trigger #1: Body Double (copies Hulk) + Carrion Feeder
2) Sac Body Double to Carrion Feeder
3) If your opponent kills Feeder here, you get Lark + Feeder. If your opponent doesn't kill Feeder you get Lark + Benevolent Bodyguard. Alternately, you could get Lark + another Feeder anyway forcing your opponent to just remove both Feeders. Alternately, you can grab another Body Double here. (If you get another Body Double Repeat this step again.)
4) Sac the Lark to Carrion Feeder. If they remove your Carrion Feeder with the Lark trigger on the stack (i.e. after you have chosen targets), you should be able to do one of the following:
a) Sac Benevolent Bodyguard to prevent the removal spell
b) Ignore it because you have 2 Carrion Feeder
c) Ignore it because you targeted two Body Doubles and the removal spell isn't an RFG effect (STP, PtE, etc). In this case one Body Double will enter play as Lark, the other will enter play as Carrion Feeder.
5) Body Double will return as Lark and you'll either be able to use the Lark triggers to never run out of Mogg Fanatics, Carrion Feeders, and/or Benevolent Bodyguards.
-----------------
Your hulk grabs Body Snatcher, Benevolent Bodyguard/Sylvan Safekeeper, and Carrion Feeder. With the Body Snatcher CIPT ability on the stack, you sac Body Snatcher to return Protean Hulk. You then sac Protean Hulk to find Body Double (copies Hulk). You sac your Body Double to find Reveilark and your win condition. You sac the Lark to return Body Double (which copies Lark) and proceed to loop your win condition.
Body Snatcher isn't really needed for this part of the combo. It costs 1 less than Body Double so you can grab both a sac outlet (Feeder) and a protection piece (bodyguard or safekeeper). It'salso there so you can get a combo piece out of your hand if it's stuck there (like Lark or Body Double). You really should be playing some sort of protection (probably Safekeeper since there is no penalty do using its ability with the Lark kill) to make this shine.
Is 18 land really enough? It would seem like 20 would be the minimum when you want to resolve a 3cc on turn 3. I've had a few situations where Im looking for the 3rd land with the win in hand.
I really like the deck, but be warned, it will be a tough fight in a developed meta. The main thing going for it is that people won't know the best way to fight it.
Tusk up.
Originally Posted by Finn
Personally i think Chapin did an excellent job with the maindeck.
So i will concentrate on the board for now, what stragety and what colours could be used. I am just brainstorming here.
The first question should be, what kind of strategy are we aiming at?
While i dont think a "complete" transformation would be good / doable (e.g. -combo +mostly graveyard independentbeaters), going for a classic reanimation strategy by bringing in a single Empyrial Archangel / Iona, Shield of Emeria could be viable.
Also is there input on Dark Confidant from the board? Someone stated he isnt that hot for whatever reason. Unanswered he would allow us to quickly overpower the opponent and he absorbs creature removal aswell.
If we try to defend the combo against hate, the biggest threats should be named:
- GY hate in general
- COTV
- CB lock
- Excessive amount of creature removal
It should be noted that the opponent wont bring in artifact / enchantment hate, so something like EE or Deed could be decent, but maybe too slow. Especially EE looks nice in my opinion, besides it cant be tutored up.
From this point of view i would start with both
Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle
Most of the following slots depend on the splash colour(s). What choices each colour offers should be clear. Because it wasnt mentioned i add Reverent Silence for the green splash.
While a second splash (4c) would bring greater flexibility in sb choices, it also weakens the mana base, which in turn could make it difficult to reach the critical three mana / lands.
Another point is the viability of adding redundant combo pieces and protection creatures. Like a second Hulk / Feeder (or even Body Double) and either Bodyguard or Safekeeper. I dont know if this is the right path, with the maindeck configuration i already see unwanted pieces more than i would like. Thoughts?
BBB
Why not? I had Krosan Grip boarded against me to nail Necromancy before it grabs Hulk. Although Grip can still be Thoughseized or Therapied (the B cost, not the flashback), it can't be countered, and it requires the Hulk player to find a Thoughtseize, a Therapy, or another Footsteps/Necromancy.
Many decks have Grip available, so it's likely that you will see them at some point (especially if that deck is skimping on Ichorid hate).
InfoNinjas
My bad on the mirror entity. Are there any other options to fill an alternate slot for carion feeder that can be Hulked up with body double?
Pithing needle on either Carion feeder or bile Urchin/Fanatic has led me to want diversify sac outlets and win conditions for games 2/3.
Adding Rituals may be overkill, but an additional land or two should be added. I was just mulighaning too much. Cutting the single Rit for another land is an option.
As far as the SB, I like having the option to run the additional hulk/Bodyguard/fanatic, but you have to weigh the costs of diluting your deck as well.
I prefer going answers to hate that can be tutored by either mysticla or entomb. I wouldn't run more than 1 chain of vapor though because of chalice at 1. Echoing Truth, Hurkyl's Recall, Wipe Away, Krosan Grip, and Ancient Grudge are my top answers.
I tried Bobs and they seemed unneccasary in most matchups. The problem is what do you cut? Brainstorm, Ponder and Mystical take precadance over Bob, and the deck is fairly tight as it is. Possibly as a sideboard option against control, but the main issue against most control is counterbalance not card advantage.
The single Deep Analysis seems random, but it has actually been amazing as a second entomb target when needed.
What are peoples thoughts on adding Intuition as a non 1 casting cost way to tutor win conditions/counterspelss, and even entomb the 3x Hulks post sideboard?
The turn three kill with counter back up happen frequently, but post sideboard it's usually better to slow roll the hate and scult the perfect hand full of disruption.
I'll do some more testing and I'll come back giving my feedback.
Sadly, I haven't had much of a chance to test the deck yet, but after goldfishing Chapin's list a fair amount I really like the potential Game 1 percentage. A field (or player) unprepared for the deck should be fairly vulnerable, and find themselves quickly down a game. I think that people unfamiliar with the combo will also struggle with how to disrupt it.
So, it seems like a lot of the talk is about sideboard strategy:
-I don't like redundant copies of combo pieces. One Sylvan Safekeeper should do the job of protecting your combo if they have StP/Path. On this note, I prefer the Safekeeper to Bodyguard. If you're "going off" and their answer is to kill one of your creatures having redundant protection seems better than a 1-shot.
-Lots of 1-of's. Being able to Mystical up whatever relevant card you need for situation X is good.
-Alternate "win" condition (Fanatic/Urhcin). I'm on the fence about this. I think I'd generally rather just have another spell that can bounce or destroy their needle.
Potential SB:
1x Pyroclasm
1x Perish
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Echoing Truth
1x Reverent Silence
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Krosan Grip
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Leyline of the Void
Wasnt aware that there is a triggered ability, my bad. So every single piece of hate / answer is good versus this deck -what a shameWhy not? I had Krosan Grip boarded against me to nail Necromancy before it grabs Hulk.
@centurion8
I dont see the point in playing these, it neither defends the main strategy nor doesnt it present an alternate win condition....
4x Leyline of the Void
BBB
Neither of these work, since good players will Swords the Hulk and needle Carrion Feeder anyway.
if you know your opponent plays StP, wait til you have cabal to the grave so you don't give him priority...
Was testing against Ugr Dreadstill, while G1 is quite winnable - i see no way with Chapins list for G2/3. Maybe a proper SB will help, the problem i see here is that the decks needs staying power for the sideboarded games and it cant use the "Ichorid template" (4 Chain / 4 Needle), because its vunerable against additional cards like Chalice for 1 and CB. I know that basing decisions on games against a deck, which has one of the strongest anti combo packages available isnt representative, but the question remains why play this over anything other?
Till somebody figures out a good sideboard, i will try something more like the orginal GP: Flash winning list:
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Island (6)
1 [DDC] Swamp (1)
2 [B] Tropical Island
// Creatures
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [UD] Body Snatcher
1 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [BOK] Bile Urchin
1 [PLC] Body Double
1 [MOR] Reveillark
// Spells
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
3 [VI] Necromancy
1 [SOK] Footsteps of the Goryo
1 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [NE] Daze
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
// Sideboard something like:
- Man plan:
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
- Making Entomb and Necro not completely dead:
SB: 2 Fat creatures (e.g. Archangel and Inkwell)
SB: 1 Exhume (Footsteps doesnt work)
- Rest:
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
+2 other
The list looks promising imo, it lacks the explosive power in game 1 compared to Chapins list, but should have a better time after boarding. I am not sure about the Moxen - they allow a 1st turn Confidant / CB and a second turn combo, dont know if that is needed though. This version is quite cmc 1 heavy, but the Mysticals allow to put a cmc 2 on top. It gets better after boarding too.
The idea behind the sb is to obviously going for a man plan and reducing graveyard dependency. The problem here is that Tarmo stil gets hit by Relic - its not as bad as with the Hulk combo though. Another thing i see here is that squeezing in CB/Top and Confidant could be a little too much for a deck with such a 'large' combo like Entomb-Hulk, which would mean that the deck has to be build as a one-trick-pony / all-in approach.
EDIT: A couple of observations, i was testing the Chapin list against Zoo preboard. While having clearly the edge, two points (the first one is quite obvious, but good to keep in mind) - please correct me if i am wrong:
- Zoo has Grim Lavamancer / any number of none rfg intstant spells (Bolt / Blast etc) that can kill Feeder. Each Cabal Therapy in your graveyard negates one of these effects spells.
- I ran into the huge problem of having Feeder in hand and i couldnt figure out what to do. One option is to hardcast the Feeder - a single burn spell will ruin your day in this case no matter how many Cabal Therapys you might have. The only other way was to shuffle away the Feeder via Brainstorm (keep in mind 1 Feeder maindeck). Any ideas for this scenario / do i overlook something?
Last edited by deadlock; 10-18-2009 at 03:04 PM.
BBB
If you only play 1 Feeder and have it in hand, the best option is, as mentioned, shuffle it away via brainstorm. Next best is hard cast it and hope it sticks around. If it gets destroyed or you're forced to sac it because of StP or the like, you're down to 2 options:
1) with 2 Therapies, you can still go off: Necro>Hulk; fetch Bile Urchin + Body Double (Hulk) and sac to Therapy #1; fetch Lark and sac to Therapy #2 (select Feeder + BD) and you're back in business
2) with an extra Necro, you can do it over 2 turns: Necro #1>Hulk; fetch Bile Urchin + Body Double (naming nothing and going to GY and fizzle). Next turn, Necro #2 > Lark (select Feeder + BD) and go off.
Yeah, I know, not great options / not so likely. I think that's another reason to play 2x Feeders (besides dodging removal). I currently play 1x, but might rethink, too.
Why doesn't the Chapin list run Reanimate, not even as a tutor target? And what's up with the Deep Analysis? I like D.A. when it's in the yard, but without discard outlets I think I'd rather run Force of Will or something like that.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Reanimate doesnt kill Hulk on its own, it would require something like Cabal Therapy, at that point you have a three-card-combo instead of two.
@DA isnt it obvious? If you need to refill your hand / have a second Entomb, you grab DA with it. His list runs 4 FoW btw.
I am thinking about Repeal in the board, it bounces graveyard hate effectivly and maybe even CB, too bad it doesnt handle Chalice @ 1.
BBB
Because there are GY based decks that win faster than this deck does. Dropping a Leyline on turn 0 and then going off at my leisure is a better plan than fighting to race with dredge.
@herbig
Hence, the board I made has no alternate win condition.
The safekeeper can protect your feeder from fire, bolt, etc. Canadian thresh (for example) plays these cards and will try to disrupt your combo in that way in lieu of StP.
I agree that a "good" player will StP/Path your Hulk given the option, that's why the deck plays 6+ discard spells and 7 free counterspells. If you attempt to "go off" while you know your opponent is playing these cards, have W-mana up, and have not ripped their hand apart you shouldn't be playing this deck.
Any further developments on this deck? I still think it has considerable promise, but post-SB games are clearly an issue...
I did another tournament last week with the exact same list I had (Chapin's list...but I changed the board a little) I finished 8th out of 24 players. Only loosing to 3 Stifle round 1 (#1 on Fetch, #2 on Fetch and #3 on Fetch again...no lands into play!!) and to Landstill (4 swords + 4 Path, 2 Crypt and 2 Trap post board...) in the Top8.
SB:
1 Protean hulk (Key tech; amazing to bring in G2 - G3; gives you another Go!)
3 Pithing Needle (never sided in but 3 looks perfect to fight Relic/Tormod's/Lavamancer)
2 Chain of vapor (Good vs Leyline, Lavamancer, Pridemage, Meddling Mage...)
1 Echoing Truth (I would add the second one to go with Chain...espacially good vs Chalice)
3 Ancient Grudge (never sided in)
1 Mindbreak Trap (I did like this card a lot vs TES/combo deck)
2 Pyroblast (Extra protection that cost mana. NO! Not needed at all)
1 Ravenous trap (I did like this card a lot vs Dredge)
1 Pact of Negation (I want this card to be Main Deck...Always sided in)
The biggest issue we have with the deck is to fight against:
1- Swords to Plowshares & Path to Exile
2- Graveyard Hate;
Ravenous Trap (easy to deal with, just counter/discard it)
Tormod's Crypt (Bounce/destroy it)
Relic of Progenitus (Bounce/destroy it)
Leyline (Bounce it)
3- Counter magic...
Basically, I'm really not afraid of graveyard hate anymore...and we should know how to handle counter war!!!
We have to come up with something to deal with Swords & Path. That's why Hulk #2 is really important post board. Safekeeper can't do shit to help us... Maybe if we put 4x Cabal Therapy it will help us NOT passing prioriy while going off.
So maybe I could switch 2x Pyroblast from the board for 2x Therapy because I can't figure out what to cut to include them main deck. I don't even know what to take out to put Pact #4. I really like the lonely Dark Ritual and Deep Analysis...and I would want 4x Mystical and 4x Pact...Also, 18 lands are more than enough for me, mulliganning is part of the game when you're playing a combo deck.
I have had moderate success using Chapin's build, making top4 at a 30 man. I learned a few things though.
His maindeck is close to ideal and I shouldn't have deveated fro it. I cut the Therapies and the single ritual and regretted it.
I lost a game to stax where I could have mysticaled for ritual to win after an Armageddon, and ther were times when I needed the therapy as a sac outlet.
The sideboard is where I think most of the development is needed.
I liked your idea of adding counterbalance/top as a way to stop hate post SB but I don't think it should be maindeck. The problem is you also need to add removal and then you run into to much SB hate diluting the deck. If you can come up with a combination that can fit in the Counter top lock with removal then it shoul dbe good.
Here is the board I'm thinkin of:
6 Countertop
3 Hulk/Fanatic/Sylvan safekeeper
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing TRuth
2 Extirpate
how relevent were the trap cards? i can see why youd want to have access to them, but playing from the standpoint of a combo deck against combo shouldnt you just try and race instead of disrupting them?
as far as swords/path, how much of a problem have these cards posed for other players of the deck? i recently played a list at our local tourney and even though swords/path were there it never seemed like a problem. If they have a W open its easy enough for the deck to aquire hand disruption to check for a swords/path or outright counter it.
also, im not sure i like p.needle in the board. i play hurkyls recall and 3 ancient grudge side which handles most forms of graveyard hate and chalice etc. i also have bounce and reverant silence for leylines. even though i have yet to use them, i still cant bring myself to remove them because they answer deed, EE, pridemage and thier ilk...but bounce can do the same if your planning to combo. anyone else have similar thoughts?
if your offended by what i say go fuck yourself
I've started testing a variant of this list:
4 Delta
4 Rainforest
1 Strand
3 Sea
2 Trop
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Rit
1 Hulk
1 Feeder
1 Snatchers
1 BDouble
1 Lark
1 Urchin
1 Safekeeper
4 Mystical
4 Entomb
4 Necro
1 Footsteps
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT
3 Ponder
4 Force
4 Spell Pierce
3 CB
SB has been a combination of these singletons:
Ravenous Trap
Mindbreak Trap
Pact of Negation
Echoing Truth
Baneslayer Angel
Protean Hulk #2
Carrion Feeder #2
and these cards that I've had multiples of:
Leyline of the Void
Krosan Grip
Pernicious Deed
I started out with Daze in the deck, but Daze was awful. Spell Pierce is kinda bad against control, where Thoughtseize would be infy better. Pierce is a lot better vs Zoo, Burn, and aggro-discard strategies though.
So far, my testing has gone like this:
Tempo Thresh 18-12 preboard (this matchup seems to be 50/50ish, maybe slightly in my favor)
Tempo Thresh 15-17 postboard (this matchup seemed to still be 50/50ish when they brought in spell pierce and rebs)
Merfolk/g 21-8 preboard (this matchup is almost a joke. I can't imagine mono blue being any better)
Merfolk/g 4-1 postboard (I need more testing here)
Eva Green 8-5 preboard (I won 5 games entirely due to Sensei's Divining Top)
Eva Green 3-9 postboard (leyline + discard is bad)
Bloodghast Dredge 2-7 preboard (this matchup doesn't even feel 2-7 close preboard)
Bloodghast Dredge 15-1 postboard (4 Leyline + 1 Rav Trap + 4 Mystical Tutor + a turn 3-4 clock...)
TES 7-1 preboard (combo vs combo-control tends to favor combo-control)
TES 2-0 postboard
ANT-DD Hybrid 2-0 preboard
ANT-DD Hybrid 2-0 postboard
Bant CB - 8-9 preboard (VClique accounts for roughly 7 losses...)
Bant CB - 5-2 postboard
Zoo 20-2 preboard (2 losses were to Pridgemage blowing up Necromancy)
Zoo 17-8 postboard (the matchup is more interesting when they bring in yard hate and kgrips)
I want to do some more testing against Merfolk, Bant, and Tempo Thresh. I'd also like to work in some matches against Landstill and Dreadstill at some point in time, but I'm lacking in knowledgeable pilots who are comfortable playing the decks and have free time. I'll post more matchups as I get to them.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I had some success running all 4 Carrion Feeder. They give you plenty of creatures to have in play to sacrifice to Cabal Therapy, and it ups the chances of having one in play to go off through StP on Hulk using Necromancy.
Magic Level 3 Judge
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