Chinese fakes

[[SLAYER]chaos]

The only real card is the leftmost Goblin Piledriver.

[prateta]

Well here is the solution for all who participated in guessing. The two cards on the left are fake. More pictures to come today! I hope.

Scans on saturday. Review sunday/monday (tests).

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[majikal]

That Goblin Lackey seems completely indistinguishable from the real thing. :\

Piledriver seems to have a bold font for creature type and copyright, but that may be normal ink variance.

Can you post the Onslaught fetch lands side by side with real ones? Those are the ones that seem the most sinister if dumped onto the market.

[prateta]

Sorry, dont have fake ons fetches :-/

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[majikal]

Ah, so they only sent you a small portion of the cards in the list?

[Guie]

If that's the case I'm not too worried about people who purchase them for their personal use and risk getting game losses due to deck checks. As long as I can trade and purchase in confidence and the flood of counterfeits doesn't crash the market I'm fine with it.

Oh and my guess is, the rightmost Lackey is a fake. I'm not too sure about the leftmost Piledriver. I've seen so much color difference on older cards, it's hard to judge.

I wish people would either be for or against counterfeiting, rather than being ok with acceptable levels of attempting to bootleg copyrighted and trademarked material, or only if it is a large corporation, or only if the company is no longer making/losing money on a product (consider R&D needs to consider every card ever printed when designing a card). We live in a civilized society (right?), and we accept (for the most part) the laws put into place even if we disagree at times, as we understand why they are in place. I also don't care for any questionable practice that contributes to deceptive or fraudulent acts, but that's another argument.

Your second sentence shows the difficulty in analyzing these counterfeits and someone will eventually get screwed trading or buying a card they believe to be authentic. eBay doesn't always side with the buyer and sometimes require an "expert" to prove the item is counterfeit. Lastly, you are probably not getting these cheaply unless you purchase directly from this company. The "small blacket market dealer" isn't Robin Hood of Dominaria. He or she isn't taking legal risks to sell Dual Lands for $5 a playset.

I'm trying to be reasonable and consider both sides, though I ultimately end up on the "no thank you" side of the argument. Still, everywhere I look the argument ends in self-righteousness and logical fallacies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since I've encountered a lot of people not knowing this, real Magic cards not only pass the bend test but will do so a staggeringly large number of times if you just don't crimp them. So don't be afraid to test a card out this way.

(This doesn't apply to foils of course.)

I wish people would either be for or against counterfeiting, rather than being ok with acceptable levels of attempting to bootleg copyrighted and trademarked material, or only if it is a large corporation, or only if the company is no longer making/losing money on a product (consider R&D needs to consider every card ever printed when designing a card). We live in a civilized society (right?), and we accept (for the most part) the laws put into place even if we disagree at times, as we understand why they are in place. I also don't care for any questionable pratice that contributes to deceptive or fraudulent acts, but that's another argument.

People in the science of government have known and accepted that people will only accept laws they perceive as just and fair for thousands of years.

[prateta]

Ah, so they only sent you a small portion of the cards in the list?

Yeah, 9 cards only. Allready started a Paypal dispute because he promised 40. I even have invoice. Well for testing it should be enough.

It would be better to have them all though. Because the quality is very variable.
Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ad Hominem much?

There are three questions you must answer "yes" to before you can describe something as an ad hominem fallacy. Well, four, but the first is just, "is it an attack," which I think is less confusing, usually, so we'll skip to the three that make an attack into an ad hominem fallacy.

1) Is there an actual argument? You'd think this would be obvious but I encounter this mistake probably the most frequently. In order for anything to qualify as a logical fallacy it has to be part of a logical argument. "Logical" here does not mean "reasonable" or "fair" or anything like that, it means having to do with logic; the study, science, or math of propositions, or in another sense how ideas with potential truth values relate to one another in an argument. The logic of an argument refers to its structure. An argument can be logically sound and completely unreasonable, spurious nonsense; or logically unsound but with a very sound conclusion. At any rate, the point is, if there is no logical structure, there is no fallacy to point out.

2) Alright, but is the purported ad hominem actually doing any work in the argument? In other words, do any of the claims rest on the insult, or is the insult just sort of thrown in or irrelevant? If it's the latter, it's not an ad hominem fallacy. "X because of Y" is just as valid as, "X because of Y, fuckface." It doesn't matter if one is politer than the other.

3) Lastly, if yes to the previous two, is the attack irrelevant? If, for instance, we are arguing over whether or not you should be a small town mayor, many of the residents might be concerned if you do in fact go around fucking their dogs at night, if you are the notorious dog-fucker (the truth or falsity of the accusation is a separate issue from whether it is an ad hominem fallacy, of course.)

That was a bit of an aside but I see this term misused so often that I like to step out and correct it.

In this case:

Arguably, yes, yes, and no. You might certainly feel insulted by my dismissing your arguments and contradictions as mere status quo bias; it is an implicit argument that your opinion can be ignored; the reason it can be ignored is because it is status quo bias. However, the suggestion that you are merely defending your status quo bias is quite relevant to whether or not anyone should listen to you. Because an appeal to the status quo is itself fallacious.

So, to answer your question, no, not so much.

I hope this little lesson has been embiggening for you.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I believe the left most Goblin Piledriver and Goblin Lackey are the fakes.

Sweet! What did I win?

[Higgs]

I wish people would either be for or against counterfeiting, rather than being ok with acceptable levels

True. If you take a look at my posts you can see that Im against the counterfeits. I was just trying to be realistic with the level of shit that hit the fan. I agree with the rest of your post.

[Tormod]

I wish for world hunger to end. Don't waste your wishes.

[lordofthepit]

I'm more suprised that this actually suprises people. I mainly posted it because I think it's amusing that Ben is getting salty about being exposed this time. It totally isn't obvious that shady shit is going on when Cabal Therapy suddenly spikes in price out of nowhere with no demand supporting the price increase.

I can tell you for sure that the Cabal Therapy spike is not on SCG. (I'm not the one who bought them out, but I know it's not initially SCG.)

[Barook]

Other people on 4chan also claim that the fakes are a bit blurrier, just like the prateta's Lackey and Piledriver. So the sky isn't falling yet.

I can tell you for sure that the Cabal Therapy spike is not on SCG. (I'm not the one who bought them out, but I know it's not initially SCG.)

Cabal Therapy is "out of stock" for days now. It's a common tactic of SCG to pull cards from their shop when they smell a price increase. Wait for the inevitable return when they decide to put up Cabal Thearpy again - at a higher price.

Whether or not SCG is involved in this market manipulation is another question, but everything points at somebody playing the market right now. See my post here:

The rise of Cabal Therapy was market manipulation at its finest. I blame SCG (and maybe other big players in the secondary market, who knows).

There's a pretty easy way to tell whether there's actual demand or just some assholes messing with the market: Comparing the price between MODO and Paper. If prices in both spike, it's demand, if only Paper spikes for no appearent reason, it's market manipulation. It is that easy and we do have the tools now to call speculators out on their bullshit:

I don't know what caused the rise of Summoner's Egg, but there's clearly demand for it in both Paper and MODO :

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Fist+of+Suns+%5B5DN%5D --> demand

Both Griselbrand and Fist of Suns had a price spike due to the new Tin Fists deck in the latest Modern GP:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Griselbrand+%5BAVR%5D --> demand

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Fist+of+Suns+%5B5DN%5D --> demand

Stoneforge Mythic recently trippled in price as well. While this increase in price might have been fueled by speculators as well, the timeline clearly indicates a clear increase in demand ever since TNN was unleashed onto the format:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Ston...stic+%5BWWK%5D --> demand

As for Cabal Therapy: While there has been a steady increase in price the last few months, the recent price spike is completely unaccounted for. There's no new hot deck using it and MODO hasn't shown any price spike either to indicate increased demand:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Cabal+Therapy+%5BJUD%5D --> market manipulation

Edit: Disrupting Shoal is also met by market demand:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Disr...hoal+%5BBOK%5D --> demand

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I thought there was an understanding that we're a while yet from undetectable counterfeits.

But it will happen. At least as long as Wizards does nothing about the soaring prices on the secondary market.

And then it won't really matter what anyone on here thinks, it'll be a fait accompli.

[the Thin White Duke]

So, allegedly -- Godbooks are used to respond to demand before the demand exists. If it were true, I believe it's about as morally defensible as creating demand for antivirus software by writing your own viruses (cough McAfee cough, allegedly cough hack wheeze). But what the fuck do I actually know about any of that; I'm just another Google-all-the-things armchair-expert schmuck. Allegedly.

+1
Call me cynical, but SCG can also use the "treat of impending counterfeit " to cause a rush on legitimate cards. "Get 'em while you can people! Last chance to get legit cards! Those f'n Chinese are going to start flooding the market with fake cards and we're powerless to stop it! BUY NOW!!!"

[Barook]

+1
Call me cynical, but SCG can also use the "treat of impending counterfeit " to cause a rush on legitimate cards. "Get 'em while you can people! Last chance to get legit cards! Those f'n Chinese are going to start flooding the market with fake cards and we're powerless to stop it! BUY NOW!!!"

Or "Quick, sell your collection under value to us before it tanks into worthlessness!"

The article about the counterfeits on SCG read like fear mongering to me.

[HonorBasquiat]

Yeah, 9 cards only. Allready started a Paypal dispute because he promised 40. I even have invoice. Well for testing it should be enough.

It would be better to have them all though. Because the quality is very variable.
Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

When you say he only sent you 9 cards, you mean 36 I'm assuming? 4 copies of 9 different cards. Anyway, It's really too bad he didn't send out what he promised, hopefully the rest are coming soon or something. Anyway, can't wait for more pictures, reviews, tests, etc. This is all very interesting. I'm especially curious about this variance of quality you've expressed.

[prateta]

When you say he only sent you 9 cards, you mean 36 I'm assuming? 4 copies of 9 different cards. Anyway, It's really too bad he didn't send out what he promised, hopefully the rest are coming soon or something. Anyway, can't wait for more pictures, reviews, tests, etc. This is all very interesting. I'm especially curious about this variance of quality you've expressed.

No, 9 cards, 1 copy of each. Sorry, it's night in my country now. Here is another lousy quality picture. Tomorrow when I get to some well lighted area (my flat is kind of a hole), I will make proper pictures of all 9. And as promised before, scans on saturday and review sunday/monday.

Can you guess what's original and what's fake on this picture? :-)

[Dzra]

I hope this little lesson has been embiggening for you.

I made the following arguments:

Magic product has legitimacy when people believe they can buy Magic product and it will be actual Magic product.
Counterfeiting releases fake cards into the market.
Therefore, counterfeiting hurts the legitimacy of real Magic product.

LGSs are good.
LGSs rely on the legitimacy of Magic product in order to make profits.
Therefore, counterfeiting hurts LGSs.
Therefore, counterfeiting is bad.

Magic cards are expensive.
More people would be able to play if Magic if cards were cheaper.
More players would be good.
Therefore, Magic cards should be cheaper.

Magic cards should be cheaper.
Counterfeiting is bad.
Wizards is the only entity that can alleviate cost without reducing legitimacy.
Therefore, Wizards should make a strategy for abolishing the reserved list and/or alleviating the secondary market.

In response to these arguments, you make the following statement:

Man the status quo bias is fucking reeking off of my screen, how do you fucking stay conscious through that.

Implicitly arguing:

The status quo is bad.
Dzra likes the status quo.
Therefore, Dzra's arguments may be dismissed.

Firstly, you have neither shown that the status quo is bad, nor that I actually like it. Secondly, even if I did like the status quo (which I don't), that still has nothing to do with the arguments against counterfeiting that I made.