Just want to say: I regularly have trouble even resolving 2-3 drops or zenithing for x= 4 vs most of the format, even with 23 lands. Make of that what you will...
What's everyone's thoughts on the flex land spots.
I've been running the dark depth combo ever since I've been playing with the deck, which I've enjoyed a lot as it can get you out of many tight spots.
As others have remarked though, it can mess with the consistency of the deck so I've been toying with the idea of trying other lands instead.
Other lands I've seen in similar spots:
- Cradle
- Cavern of Souls
- Horizon Canopy
- Maze of Ith (Great effect, doesn't tap for mana - similar to Dark Depths in that regard)
I'm probably missing a few (not including Karakas here, as I'm already running it).
Does any one have comments on which of these or others they like best? I can see a case for each of those, and downsides. Is this purely a meta call or are there objectively better things to be doing? (If it helps, I play most often vs Miracles, Elves, Show and Tell, Eldrazi, Maverick, 4c Loam).
I started tinkering with Ironclad's list. The Horizon Canopy has been good as another GW land, and real nice once or twice as a card draw. I found in tight games where it went kinda long and stalled a bit, having an extra draw was nice to get through the deck faster... ESPECIALLY in sideboard games.Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
Ironclad also runs a Cradle, which I loved in a game. I was a little tight on mana and being able to drop a SFM and a Jitte against Elves in the same turn was real nice. I also run a 1 of Batterskull and have loved Cradle with that just to ramp a bit more. It def. has led to some explosive plays; possible GSZ, Batterskull + bounce mana, etc.
Maze is meh. I used to run Maze but it's becoming less and less effective IMHO. Elves kill you with an army, Show and Tell decks don't care about lands unless it's a Karakas, Miracles flood you with minions, Delver it's ok against but I feel that match is already good, Stoneblade laughs cus TNN. I think the way the format has shifted Maze has become less important. Yes it allows some cheeky plays with KotR but I feel like it's better suited being a potential mana land instead of a utility card.
Cavern is decent but the creature base is split a lot more then it used to be. Human used to be the go to, but that no longer can be dropped on turn 1 for a mana dork, into an uncounterable Knight t2 unless you run NH. Having land that can't cast Teegfather most of the time makes me sad.
Ghost Quarter. It's nice to have another Wasteland style effect, esp. if you run Life from the Loam, nice being able to get around Pithing Needle on Wasteland in those cases. Also can be used to filter your own land if you REALLY need it.
Bojuka Bog in the board still seems ok in spots, but I have preferred going with the "free" and potential game winning Surgical Extraction for my grave hate seeing as how it can impact more matchups then just "graveyard" decks.
Urborg. I had an opponent play Urborg against me and it saved my mana. It's an odd one since it can potentially save your enemy but it was nice being able to get black mana out of all the random utility lands.
After getting back into it, I am leaning on Ironclad's choices of Cradle/Canopy. If I had to bring in a 3rd I'd maybe find space for Loam and a Ghost Quarter.
I dropped canopy and play Rogues Passage, Gaea's Cradle, and Karakas as one of utility lands. Passage has won me many many games
I find Maze of Ith to be fantastic. Against damn near all matchups.
Even vs combo and Miracles I use Maze of Ith plus Deathrite Shaman as 3 damage a turn game 1 off of 1 creature as early as the 2nd turn. (attack with DRS, untap DRS, then burn with DRS)
Its my go to vs Eldrazi, its my go to vs Delver, it even forces my shardless opponents to have to over commit because they have such few threats a maze + mom really shuts them down.
And since I run Maze + Depths Combo I've won many games copying Maze with Stage and a lot of creature matchups just get turned off when that happens.
That's definitely an interesting approach. I think these choices all have their validations, and there is no real way of knowing which one is the best period, just which one works best for each player's style. Maze has saved my butt a few times in the past, and giving knights pseudo-vigilance is awesome. I just don't know what I would cut for it, probably a spell to keep my mana consistent. Same with DD/Stage combo. I like having the 22 "immediate" mana producers. Also having to sac one of your 2-3 lands to grab a maze can get awkward at times.
I had to cut so many cool creatures when I added depth/stage and maze. My creature list is super bare bones to make up for it. 22 lands, depths, maze, 3 equipment, 4 plow leaves very little in the forms of "try out this guy?"
I haven't played in months, but I'm on-and-off lurking.
My flex lands are:
1 Cradle
1 Karakas
1 DD
1 Stage
1 Forest #2 (making 4 basics) or fetch #7
I haven't found the need for Maze in a long while and I greatly dislike Horizon Canopy.
Given the delver-heavy meta I was playing in, Forest #2 was solid quite often. It also protected me against DnT, Nic Fit, and anything running Blood Moon.
Cradle is insane. If you have one, it's auto-include for me IMO. Viciano's vial Maverick and Herzog throughout the years demonstrate why this card is dope. Cradle also helps immensely with curving/zenithing/making mana with few lands.
As a side note, I haven't seen the meta shift since I've gone on hiatus. MTG not really a force in my life rn. Upcoming set looks boring.
Are you on hiatus for any particular reason, or just taking a break? The world needs more M@vericks ;)
Thanks for the input, plenty of food for thought.
I tried something else last night, with a one of ghost quarter and life from the loam. That felt really good, played a long grindy game vs Miracles that I ended up winning by keeping him of of white mana, recurring wastelands for the tundras, and ghost quartering plains repeatedly until he ran out. Might keep playing with that for a bit, the second "free" land slot is up for discussion though ;)
I'd like to try cradle, I don't own one so it's a bit of an investment, but nothing stopping me from proxying one to see how it feels.
Cradle plus equipment feels like cheating. It's pretty insane.
I played this "Stock" list in a challenge at the GP: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/540138#online
Except I had to swap in DD combo for Canopy/Cradle and tossed in Bind as #61.
Not so much to report, I got to beat DnT with a Bind on Mother of Runes to swing combat in my favor, and Scryb Ranger to get extra uses from Mother to nullify their Jitte and force my Jitte through. Was beat by Burn when I couldn't stick a Jitte, although I did manage to punt it a bit by not taking out Eidolons early, and made the mistake of siding out the DD combo which would have won game 2. Was beat by BR Reanimator in 3 when I couldn't answer a T1 Sire (although I did get to Bind a Griselbrand activation). Beat UR Bedlam Delver with just typical Maverick play.
Deck felt fairly well positioned, no super fast combo is out there other than Reanimator.
I agree with RobNC on this one and am only responding now because (1) you say you are a legacy noob and I want you to feel like people are paying attention to your concerns and (2) you might be a little confused about what Maverick and Nic Fit do. Let's get you to where you want to go.
Mother of Runes and dorks are a notable omission in your list. Really, we’re a GSZ/MoR/dork/KoTR/Wasteland deck with the ability to run various utility packages (typically SFM+equipment, but also P-Fire+Grove, DD+Stage, etc) and utility lands (Maze of Ith, Karakas, Grove of the Burnwillows, DD+Stage) depending on the build. Once you start to get away from those elements, you’re talking about a deck that is fundamentally different from a Maverick deck. In other words, it ain't just the GSZ, which is why I say we're a GSZ/MoR/dork/KoTR/Wasteland deck. They all work together to make the deck viable. As such, Maverick has a high number of core cards and very few flex spots. What flex we do have tends to be in the aforementioned utility package and land slots, but it appears that there is consensus on 2-3 SFM and 2-3 equipmunk (Jitte for sure, but also Batterskull and some number of the swords) and the P-Fire+Grove combo being worse than Thalia. (FWIW P-Fire til I die.)
It looks like you like to do some radical stuff in your deck building. Nic Fit is far less restrictive than Maverick in this regard. Beyond the few core cards (play sets of Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer, some number of Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed) and the B/G/x land base, basically the feckin sky is the limit. You always read about how Nic Fit is a legacy commander deck since people just run seemingly random but very powerful cards in it. (I mean, I’ve seen Sorin, Grim Nemesis in some builds.) The Veteran Explorer ramp helps you do that and I don't think there's really anyway to port that to Maverick without cutting key cards. I find the flexibility Nic Fit affords appealing because it helps you adapt to different meta games… and I guess I like the idea of playing Sorin, Grim Nemesis in legacy.
All that said, your deck has more in common with a Nic Fit deck than a Maverick deck. I want you to get constructive responses to your post and, unless you want the obligatory "+4 Mother of Runes, +2 Knight of the Reliquary, -4 Cabal Therapy" posts, you really should try the nice degenerates over in the Nic Fit thread.
Your first post referred to how you wanted to strip your opponent of hope. Well Cabal Therapy taking a look at your opponent's hand followed by Veteran Explorer followed by flashbacked Cabal Therapy is pretty a pretty good way to do that. Plus you get two basics off it and your opponent could get none depending on what they're playing.
Gotta say, the absolute kewelest creature is a 20/20 black Avatar creature token with flying and indestructible named Marit Lage.
Got engaged several months back. Haven't enjoyed the format as much during 2016. CNY meta is also ridiculous lol.
^^This. Maverick revolves around Mom/Thalia/Wasteland/Reliquary backed by GSZ and the best GW supporting cast you can muster.
@Claymore: You still finding value in dual sylvans? When they stick, they're strong as all hell. But 2016 was not kind to them in my experiences. Often I'd rather go for the tutor effect in SFM or Recruiter. Wondering your thoughts here.
Quite right. On another level, I love Maverick because KotR enables all of these extremely effective packages that might not fit well together in other decks. Punishing Fire and Dark Depths have a place in the deck because you can reliably tutor for the lands you need. And chomping a couple of lands to make you a new bestest bud, Marit Lage, is a fun thing to do to people.^^This. Maverick revolves around Mom/Thalia/Wasteland/Reliquary backed by GSZ and the best GW supporting cast you can muster.
That's in addition to the SFM package in the main and the Enlightened Tutor package out of the side. Sometimes one of the mainboard packages ain't great, so it's easy to side it out entirely and slot in various Tutor pieces depending on what you're playing against.
This goes back to the earlier discussion about land. I run (a pretty standard for Punishing Maverick) 26 lands main, including Maze of Ith, x3 Wasteland, x3 Grove of the Burnwillows, Dark Depths, Karakas, and Thespian's Stage. I run x1 Bojuka Bog in the side. I replaced Horizon Canopy with a basic Plains because there were a lot of games where I wanted x2 basics (think I got my ass et up by Blood Moon a lot that week) and because I wanted to increase the cost of my modern G/W Elves deck by $80. I am not sure what creatures, other than Thalia, who is a non-bo with me anyway, I miss as a result of running so many lands, but I do very much appreciate the powerful effects of my utility lands. They just make KotR better.
So, for those not playing P-Fire, I do think the DD+Stage and Maze of Ith mainboard and Bojuka Bog sideboard are worth considering because they are additional tutorable effects. Yer Surgicals, for instance, are good, but not tutorable. Like some of our creatures, these lands may look rinky-dink, and sometimes they suck to draw, but they all have applications and can definitely tilt, if not break, certain match ups. Think of the slots they occupy as spell slots and they start to look a lot cooler.
1-3 drop in today's league.
Miracles: 2-1:
Grixis Control: 1-2
Eldrazi: 1-2
Omnishow: 0-2
I only played in the single Challenge and haven't played the deck much else recently, but in the past I always felt Sylan is one of the most powerful cards in the deck. Being able to dig for removal (Swords), GSZ, or sideboard pieces always felt very strong. Cradle may help, but I don't know if the deck can take the turns off in expending most of its mana on tutor effects.@Claymore: You still finding value in dual sylvans? When they stick, they're strong as all hell. But 2016 was not kind to them in my experiences. Often I'd rather go for the tutor effect in SFM or Recruiter. Wondering your thoughts here.
The reason I like Surgical is a little different to what I like Bog for. Bog is killer against all in graveyard style decks like Dredge and Reanimator, being able to attack multiple pieces at once is what shines there. Surgical shines in matchups where I need to deal with one problem card. For example, I was playing against 12 post in a game 2. He dropped a Cloudpost turn 1 and passed. My turn 1 I Wasteland his Cloudpost, then Surgical it. He scooped on the spot. Not saying this is the case in everything, but being able to remove 3x+ is sometimes backbreaking. Oh your opponent is all in on his Show & Tells and probably took out counterspells since you aren't playing blue? Thoughtseize one and Surgical it for a fun time. Elves combo, find a way to kill a problem elf or stop a N.O. and negate that part of their deck. Taking an entire chunk of a Legacy deck away is very strong IMHO.
TLDR: I run 2 Surgical and no Bog, but as Reanimator keeps growing I may squeeze in a Bog and maybe a Crop Rotation for a quick instant speed graveyard wipe.
I second this. After playing a few games with Cradle I am in love. I liked having Batterskull already since it just wins games on the spot, but having Cradle in there makes the deck so much more aggressive. I was able to squeeze in a win vs. Enchantress by just throwing creatures on the table and turning them all sideways.
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