Elves is one of the easier matchups. They do not like playing the game under chalice, moon, magus, or trinisphere. Additionally, the beatdown versions have 4 firey confluence that they can't ever beat, and the goblin versions can constantly pick off guys once the ball gets rolling. They also don't like getting caught behind an ensnaring bridge.Originally Posted by Karhumies
What do you think is the correct number of bridges in the sideboard? I play 2 currently.
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Budget manabase basic forest elves is a worse MU than "real elves". Most elves players I have run into have been running budget elves as a cheap entry deck into Legacy. Budget players tend to be bad MUs for us in general: budget burn, budget basic forest elves, budget mono u delver. I used to play old school goblin stompy back when elves were maindecking Progenitus as their MD NO target. I guess the old school elf lists were actually worse maychups for us than what Elves are currently running.
Nevertheless, NO elves can even nowadays win the coin flip, t1 fetch basic forest into mana dork, t3 NO. We have very few cards in the 75 which affect this plan at all in time, meaning t1-t2 when they are on the play. Ensnaring Bridge is our out against NO fatty until they can find a Reclamation Sage.
Last weekend I ended 10th (4-2) in a 53 ppl event with the following list:
10th - Dragon Stompy
Maindeck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Sin Prodder
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Fiery Confluence
2 Stone Rain
2 Trinisphere
Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Dead // Gone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Everlasting Torment
1 Mortarpod
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Tormod's Crypt
My wins were: ANT, 2 sneak and show and Burn.
My losses were: Maverick and Shardless BUG
Regarding Sideborard: Mortapod and Everlasting torment are under testing. Mortapod will be out for sure. Another Tormod's will be added just to fight knights of the reliquary and tarmogoyfs. Orbs of warding are good against storm and burn (also have uses against elemental tokens, empty the warrens tokens ) I don't have a lot of time to test so I test some fringe (2) slots in real tournament.
Regarding MD: Was my first time with Sin Prodder and didn't convinced me at all. Our Maindeck CMC average is 1,95 (26 cards with CMC=0) this means few damage in average and if we land prodder early, opponent will cause us issues with mana (happened against Maverick) Also Gaddock + thalia + sactum prelate at 3 were a nightmare. Against BUG Tarmogoyf was a wall.
Stone rain maindeck give me 3 games, toghether with fiery counfuence, trinisphere, and thunderbreak regent are the fastest way to close games. Stone rain to their only forest or stone rain + trinisphere is really broken against some decks.
In this case I think the reach you lack would be found in the goblin build. With it you can shock opposing hatebears, get around prelate with moggcatcher, and still blow up lands with goblin settler.
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Last edited by jandax; 03-17-2017 at 04:45 AM. Reason: Doublepost
Sin Prodder doesn't influence your ability to draw lands at all. If you start the turn with 45 cards in your deck and 15 of them are lands, the odds that your top card is a land is 1/3rd. Your odds that the second card of your deck is also a land is also 1/3rd. Infact, at that moment, the odds of any individual card in your deck is 1/3rd that it is a land. So it doesn't matter if you are drawing the first card (a field without Prodder) or the second card (a field with Prodder) that second card will remain the same card and it will have had the same chance of being a land as the card you flip to Prodder.
well as "AllInRed" or whatever you want to call our deck is built to beat the metagame you have to adapt to be most effective... that said there will be no "correct or best" 60-75 card list in a vacuum...
did you never race a t3 progenitus vs elvs?
you could also start with t1 beater t2 beater t3 beater without disruption and wreck their "playing around chalice" slow hand...
(even if your moon does nothing vs mono green basic lands elvs)
if you play vs burn it also depends on your list if it is hard or easy to beat them and which hands or lets say which start you have... do you think burn beats t1 garrison/rabble/scab-clan berserker t2 garrison/rabble/scab-clan berserker t3 jitte or sword of whatever?
(if burn is on the play your correct plays might change ofc)
you can not beat everything and you have to be ok with that fact if you build your deck or enter a tourney... all you can do is avoid misplays and have a plan for each situation...
this is true... prodder is more about you see more cards in your games = higher potential to draw gas or dealing dmg faster...Sin Prodder doesn't influence your ability to draw lands at all. If you start the turn with 45 cards in your deck and 15 of them are lands, the odds that your top card is a land is 1/3rd. Your odds that the second card of your deck is also a land is also 1/3rd. Infact, at that moment, the odds of any individual card in your deck is 1/3rd that it is a land. So it doesn't matter if you are drawing the first card (a field without Prodder) or the second card (a field with Prodder) that second card will remain the same card and it will have had the same chance of being a land as the card you flip to Prodder.
Last edited by Wichtelman; 03-17-2017 at 11:31 AM.
This isn't true. Once you flip the first card, if it's a land, there are now 44 cards in your deck and only 14 of them are lands. That's a smaller percentage than 1/3. In this instance, Prodder helps you dig for gas because you're seeing more cards.
Once you flip the first card, if it's not a land, there are now 44 cards with 15 lands and the chance is more than 1/3. You are going through your deck faster with Prodder but the odds from natural turn draw effectively do not change because of it.
What changes is that the opponent may choose to not take face damage from extra nonlands to give you extra "business spells" in addition to the turn draw.
ANT is so popular around here that I should probably purchase some copies of Scab-clan berserker and try it out. Cool card. D&T is also very popular, so running a 1of Jitte somewhere in the 75 is probably a good idea as well.
And yes, I agree, there is no one best decklist for the full 75. But the meta can be strongly against this deck if a lot of people have basic land decks. I would rather play something else if that is the case rather than try to struggle with almost dead Moon cards in my MD.
That's correct. I was just responding to the statement that the odds remain 1/3 even if the first card revealed is a land. For the record, I'm in the pro-Prodder camp.
I got to play at EE6 this weekend. The first half of the day was excellent, then I completely fell apart in the afternoon ending 4-4-0.
Based on my pairings, I should have gone 7-1-0 because my opponents were 3 Miracles, 3 BUG (2 Shardless, 1 Delver), 1 4C Delver, and 1 Sneak and Show.
This was the first event I've played with 4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance, previously I've only used 2. Chandra was a huge printing for us. She's the real deal and this deck will likely warp around her in the future. There were several instances where I was behind, resolved a Chandra, and ended up winning.
My build ran 4 Sin Prodder, 4 Fiery Confluence, and 4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Most of the recent lists posted to TCDecks have used this shell, so I figured they were on to something.
Despite my performance, the day was fun. I got to meet a few Source members as well as 3 of the top Legacy players from the east coast.
Moving forward, I believe Ensnaring Bridge deserves consideration as a staple in the sideboard. I find battles against Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge Mystic very difficult to win, and the decks playing those cards have trouble killing a planeswalker without combat damage. I'll have to put my brewing pants on and see what I come up with, but I'm always interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.
Skipped one event but went to 3rd event today and went 4-0-2 (5-1-2) to Top 4 in a 60 player event.
Same decklist.
Round 1: BUG TNN - 2-1
Round 2: 4c Loam - 2-1
Round 3: Burn 2-0
Round 4: B/R Reanimator 2-1
Round 5: Storm - Intentional Draw
Round 6: Aluren - Intentional Draw
Top 8:
B/R Rean - 2-1
Top 4:
Eldrazi 1-2
G1: He went nuts
G2: I went nuts
G3- Had 12 outs to just win facing lethal and at least 25+ to keep the game alive and I drew the bloody land. He hit 3 TKS and Ratchet bomb on 3(killing both blood moons I had, he top decked the bomb right after I played the 2nd one) and oddly he kept in 1 Thorn of Amethyst that slowed down Chandra and made the rolling earthquake take forever. I was all smiles when it was played and all sadness when it oddly slowed me down.
Kinda took a perfect storm of events and I still have outs to just win or keep it alive and I guess thats variance at its best as I beat B/R rean twice and Burn but lose to the good matchup :).
No real notes and would not change any of the cards in the deck yet and especially the main.
Went 1-3 on dice roll and played both top 8 matches on draw as the 8th seed.
The deck is 100% legit and should be considered low end tier 1 at this point and what I feel really is the best Chalice deck right now.
well most tarmo/stoneforge decks have maindeck solutions vs bridge and sb more stuff to also deal with moon... pretty common that they just fetch the needed basics for disenchant or decay etc and slow down after sb... ive tested cards like icy manipulator vs show and tell but that card could tap down their basic under a moon and also a big goyf + it is decay proof... that said if we just talk about little creatures the better solution are probably equipments like jitte or swords... else your board is a lot of the time packed with permanents that do not win the game and your topdecks are similiar or your starting hands are not explosive anymore if you understand what im talking about...Moving forward, I believe Ensnaring Bridge deserves consideration as a staple in the sideboard. I find battles against Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge Mystic very difficult to win, and the decks playing those cards have trouble killing a planeswalker without combat damage. I'll have to put my brewing pants on and see what I come up with, but I'm always interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.
(multiple bridge, trini, chalice, moon, mox)
This isn't me writing, but its the quick math on it
"Short answer: no it does not change the chance of drawing a land
Long answer:
Let's say you want to draw a land, and 33% of your remaining cards in library are lands.
If you don't have Sin Prodder: 33% chance of drawing a land.
If you do have Sin Prodder:
22,11% chance of revealing a land then drawing a non-land (33% * 67%)
10,89% chance of revealing a land then drawing a land (33%*33%)
22,11% chance of revealing a non-land then drawing a land (67%*33%)
44,89% chance of revealing a non-land then drawing a non-land (67%*67%)
So if you add up the two scenarios there you draw a land, you get 10,89% + 22,11% = 33%, exactly the same as if you didn't have a Sin Prodder.
What people need to understand is that yes sometimes Sin Prodder will mill away the land you need from the top, but in other cases Sin Prodder will mill away the non-land you don't need from the top and the two scenarios cancel each other out in the probability of drawing a land."
Unless you manipulate the deck between the trigger and your draw step, the Sin Prodder does nothing to make your chances of drawing a land worse.
Chandra has renewed my interest in this deck. In my list I'm playing Phyrexian Revoker over Sin Prodder. I'm also considering 2 Stormbreath Dragon. Chandra helps ramp to it and its monstrous ability. Also, it's immune to the single-target removal in the format.
There's some tension in the deck between playing big dragons (that can't get past sideboarded Ensnaring Bridge) and thopter creatures (that can but die to Fiery Confluence). Not certain if it can or should be resolved.
My main question for this board is about mulligans. Has anyone written up a mulligan guide for this deck? Is it ever correct to keep a 7 card hand without a first-turn lock piece? How about a 6 card hand without one? And so on.
Thanks for your thoughts.
4 mana is a stretch, 5 is even worst.
Mulligans, I aggressively mulligan for lock pieces + acceleration. The only hands I keep without lock pieces are 5 card hands with threat + acceleration. Else I just take it the rng gods showed me no favour that game.
I play Thunderbreak Regent cause it makes sideboarding easy. Vs fast deck / combo deck? Toss him out for interaction. Not much sideboarding needed vs slower decks except cutting some moon magus for revokers vs miracles.
It's been since Taurean Mauler and Rakdos Pit Dragon that I've played this deck, but with the printing of Chandra 2.0 & Fiery Confluence I'm picking this up again. The excitement of locking someone out on T1 has always tickled my fancy. And this weekend I'm playing a small legacy event with it. I'll post my list in a few minutes.
well try to think about it that way... if you have a lock piece it does not matter that much which creatures u play to kill your opp BUT if you do not have disruption it gets a little bit tricky + you dont want 4 or 5 mana stuff vs combo if it does not wreck them on the spot... more higher cost = your hands get cluncky and daze or mana denial is a pain... that said if you have chandra already in play do you really need a 5 mana dragon?
sure it seems to be strong vs d&t for example but they play judgement and what is their strat with wasteland + port again?
sure it is a big flyer that is sword + decay proof BUT miracles or bug etc can still kill it or just race your slow hand...
mulligans depend on the situation... into the blue in g1 you have to be really agressive... g2 and g3 you could keep hands without disruption to counter your opps strat of basic basic or solutions to moon + chalice hands with like t1 critter t2 critter t3 critter...
actually it is really hard to write a guide for this deck if you have to adapt with like 14-18 cards to be most effecive in a metagame... sideboarding and how matchups play out vary a lot cuz of that...
Last edited by Wichtelman; 03-22-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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