[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

[lorddotm]

funny thing is those two were talking crap to each other a day before tournament:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20341-Los-Angeles-Legacy-GPT-for-Mox-Sapphire-4-9-11&p=532040&viewfull=1#post532040

Haha, we were actually talking about that.


Does anyone have an FBB Sea and 2 MM Foil Brainstorms for sale?

Just wondering... PM me.

[PanderAlexander]

Any crap I talk to Liam, I still respect his play, great great TES player and congrats on the nice finish and representing L.A., I was almost done building ANT only missing the two Grim Tutors, but you proved right what you told me, that TES is better and you don't need Grim Tutors.

[The Big Ragu]

Congrats!

[lorddotm]

As promised, enjoy. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20406-%5BTES-3rd%5D-Starcitygames-com-Open-Los-Angeles)

[median]

Quick question, I sold my seas (don't ask) is there a viable replacement for around $25? I have 4 gemstone mines and 4 cities, any idea for the last five slots?

Edit: just realized I have a forbidden orchard, so four slots.

[ComboMan]

Quick question, I sold my seas (don't ask)


OMG...
Why?

O.o

Pain lands?

[ComboMan]

BTW....
Congratz lorddotm, for the finish...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The only card that can marginally compare is Watery Grave, but it's gonna knock off 1-2 flips off ad nauseam. The very best answer I can give you is this: Buy more. Soon.

--ABC

[OurSerratedDust]

It certainly isn't optimal, but you can use other gold lands to fill in those slots. If you're doing 13 lands, you can do

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Rainbow Vale (?)

But you lose the shuffling effects for brainstorm.

[Dark Ritual]

Best I can think of for replacements for sea is undiscovered paradise. Orchard is too taxing. Tarnished citadel is horrid. Rainbow vale is horrid for setting up; you might never get it back or worst case scenario you play it turn 1, cantrip, hand it over, then the opponent plays counterbalance and says go. Or they might never tap it for mana and psuedo sinkhole you for 0 mana. Undiscovered paradise is the best replacement. Without fetches I would replace brainstorm with preordain though since preordain is good without shuffle effects/fetches.

I highly suggest you get 2 sea's though; they are integral to TES. And they are only going up and right now they're at $120 a pop for revised ones. Seriously.

[TUMBLES]

I want to take this to a couple GPTs, despite still being new to the deck. Hard to make myself buy Seas and LEDs to almost certainly scrub out though lol. If I were him I wouldn't play the deck without Seas, they're pretty integral. And at least with those you can be reasonably certain they won't lose much value... and 2 Seas isn't that much of a backbreaker, played ones are still easily available for $80-$90.

I'm not sure about replacing Brainstorm with Preordains though, just for lack of a shuffle effect. It's not that often I'll end up having both Brainstorm and a fetch that can actually shuffle away the stuff I don't want. Also, I think Brainstorm's draw 3 cards is important for comboing off that turn; I don't see Preordain having that same power. It doesn't seem to me that not being able to occasionally shuffle off cards you don't want is enough of a difference to run Preordain instead. Just my relatively novice impression though.

[practical joke]

I want to take this to a couple GPTs, despite still being new to the deck. Hard to make myself buy Seas and LEDs to almost certainly scrub out though lol. If I were him I wouldn't play the deck without Seas, they're pretty integral. And at least with those you can be reasonably certain they won't lose much value... and 2 Seas isn't that much of a backbreaker, played ones are still easily available for $80-$90.

I'm not sure about replacing Brainstorm with Preordains though, just for lack of a shuffle effect. It's not that often I'll end up having both Brainstorm and a fetch that can actually shuffle away the stuff I don't want. Also, I think Brainstorm's draw 3 cards is important for comboing off that turn; I don't see Preordain having that same power. It doesn't seem to me that not being able to occasionally shuffle off cards you don't want is enough of a difference to run Preordain instead. Just my relatively novice impression though.



my anus cringed at that sentence.

brainstorm is not only good at, draw 3. It also removes crap from your hand.

brainstorm isn't called the best card of the format for nothing, it's because it is that awesome and preordain is not even close!

[lorddotm]

Why are we wasting time discussing a manabase that's just straight worse than what the industry standard is. If you don't have Seas, quite frankly, you should play another deck until you can afford Seas, its that simple.

[TUMBLES]

my anus cringed at that sentence.

brainstorm is not only good at, draw 3. It also removes crap from your hand.

brainstorm isn't called the best card of the format for nothing, it's because it is that awesome and preordain is not even close!

Bro, watch some more reading rainbow bro.

[menace13]

Bro, watch some more reading rainbow bro.
What Practical said is just incase you weren't sure on the Brainstorm to Preordain comparision, here are the facts.

Now, back on topic. Is Reading Rainbow even on air anymore and if so is that blind Star Trek guy(the irony of his only 2 roles on TV) still the host?

[Pulp_Fiction]

You could always play this but its still inferior without 2 Seas, but close to as effective as it could be:

4x City
4x Gemstone
1x Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Delta
1x Tarn
1x Mire

I used to run a similar manabase in versions w 14-15 lands but ... that was when MT was still legal. And if you only have 1 Sea, this is pretty much as cheap as it can go and still be effective.

[Pich]

Fuck bad rainbow lands, just play damn shocklands and cities and mines.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Fuck bad rainbow lands, just play damn shocklands and cities and mines.

Pich knows what he's talking about!

I played Watery Graves in TES before I picked up my Underground Seas. The 2 life won't matter most of the time you don't lose. Just win with Iggyloops more.

[median]

I'll probably just play one island, one watery grave, and four deltas.
Thanks,
John.

[lorddotm]

I hope this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21580_TES_The_Epic_Storm_Primer_Article.html) helps a few people out.

[Derayler]

Primer was sweet. I've been testing this deck a little and the only thing I had trouble with was knowing how to build the SB and exactly what was good against what. Nice.

[TUMBLES]

Nice primer, good summary of what's in the the thread with a little extra here and there.


I ran into a situation, was curious how you guys would have handled it:

Opponent is at 19 life, I'm at 9. He's playing burn, has 3 mountains untapped, 2 Lightning Bolt in graveyard, a fetchland, and a Rift Bolt. Goblin Guide on the board.

I forget the exact combination, but my options ended up being IGG for the win if he doesn't have a Bolt or Fireblast (I was pretty sure there's no other instant speed burn; Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, are sorcery and Price of Progress wouldn't have killed me unless he already had a Fireblast to go with it) in hand, or I could end up Tendrils for a couple life points under his life total. I also could have ETW, but with my life total I was pretty confident that it wouldn't get there in time.

I went for IGG and he had the Fireblast, burning me for 10 before I could get Tendrils for the kill. In retrospect, Tendrils for 16 or 18 (can't remember which) might have been the better choice. With him having 2 cards in hand and the Goblin Guide more or less meaning I only draw spells, I think it would have been smarter to buy the time and possibly draw into what I needed. What do you guys think? I wish I remembered my exact hand so I could have it pointed out if I missed another way too, but I wasn't feeling well and was playing badly/can hardly remember anything.

[lorddotm]

I would've mini-Tendrils'd him. This makes the game much harder for him, buys you a ton of time, and its funny to bust your load twice.

[Deviruchi]

I faced that kind of situation few times vs burn. You just can't accept the % that they don't have an instant. Just go for the almost kill and then find Ad Nauseam or BW/IT for the second ToA or even Grapeshot.

[GGoober]

my anus cringed at that sentence.

brainstorm is not only good at, draw 3. It also removes crap from your hand.

brainstorm isn't called the best card of the format for nothing, it's because it is that awesome and preordain is not even close!

To be fair, there are no 'crap' spells in Legacy tier decks, they're just cards that aren't as good as others :P

[Jonathan Alexander]

To be fair, there are no 'crap' spells in Legacy tier decks, they're just cards that aren't as good as others :P

That's right, the spells are strong, but lands suck. I hate drawing lands when playing this deck. Also, most of the time drawing Tendrils is rather bad and Chrome Mox can be bad at times as well.

[Shax]

I ran this in SCG Atlanta during the Standard Open and did quite well. In a box event I scrubed out to merfolk. Later on that day though I did the legacy open and went a perfect 4-0 to recoup my spending that day. The next day was the Legacy event and I went a dismal 3-3 drop. Lost to a first round Threshold using white for Meddling Mage, a Goblin Charbelcher deck, and Zoo. Pretty much I scrubed out of the Legacy Open too though. Playmistakes in all three of those matches led to game loss. If I can make an excuse it was the first Legacy tourney I had participated in for about two years. Still did not get it done. The cream rose to the top. I ran the list off the first page since Bryant tops and has had success with the deck. I felt confident and all its just my own play errors literally lost a 6-0 record to probably finish out great.

[Klazam]

Played this list in a small local tournament (3 rounds, no top 8)

-----
Land
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 City of Brass
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island

Disruption
4 Duress
3 Silence

Artifact Mana/Rituals
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual

Draw/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Ponder

Engine
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam

Win-Con
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
--
Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree
1 Eye of Nowhere
-----------------------------------

I went 2-1, beating a casual vampire deck (woo, goldfish time), and an Affinity deck (highlight: Me BWish for pyroclasm, sweeping the board of 5 artifact creatures and winning easily after that), then losing in the final round against CounterTop.

How do i improve my chances aganist countertop? I feel the Pyroblasts was realllly weak.Would it be better to have Xanthid Swarms?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

report

Play Wipe Away.

SCG's tournament coverage is finally referring to this deck as TES. Pretty noteworthy, I think.

[Klazam]

It's an instant, so as a singleton, it doesn't really help.

[lorddotm]

It's an instant, so as a singleton, it doesn't really help.

El wrongo. It is very good.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

And Wipe Away is almost always better than Krosan Grip #2.

[Klazam]

Fine, why is it good?

[mario91234]

"Remove target hindrance from the board, play this at the end of your opponents turn or if you have enough mana this turn, then proceed to kill your opponent. This spell cannot be countered."

That is why.

[bob2008]

Short report - sorry, but English is not my first language.
I have been on a 58 men tourney yesterday and finished 15th with the “standard”TES list. The first 12 got a dual so I was kinda pissed as I due to bad statistics ended out of the prices:-(
Its been a long time since I played storm but the deck was was a bust to play an I will definitively pick it up more often in the future! I lost to M.folk and Zoo and won against Dredge, Bant, Combo elves and Zoo.
I did not make detailed notes so here is what I remember:

1.round - Dredge
dice – opponent
His first land drop makes it clear he is on dredge and I go for DR (with U,B floating) on my second turn. This was maybe a bit hasty but I was afraid of loosing my key cards to his Therapies. My fresh 7 enable Ad Nauseam from high life, shortly after Burning Wish seals the deal.

In: 2 Echoing Truth, out: 2 Duress

His first turn was land Cabal Therapie naming Infernal (I had 2 B.Wish – puh!). My first turn get me 10 Gobos. He plays 2 Careful Study – looks very unsatisfied and passes. Swing – down to ten.
He eventually drops a discard outlet but my eot Brainstorm finds me the bounce spell and the Tokens take it home.

2.round – Fish
dice - opponent
I can not remember much about this game, maybe I suppressed the details of this frustrating match over night...
Although recent testing gave me new optimism regarding this MU there is unfortunately not much to say here except that I had to take five mulligans in the two matches and still got shitty hands. This combined with his 1st turn Vial 2nd turn Standstill did not make it any better to me. In the second match he started with Cursecatcher instead of Vial.
Too bad it was one of “those”games - it would have been interesting to face one of the harder Matchups with a decent draw...
I boarded out 2 Duress and a Ponder for the 3 Blasts.

3.round – Bant
dice- opponent
He is a friend of mine and we both know the others deck. Me: first turn duress , he Brainstorms and reveals Lands and one lonely Tarmogoyf! I was kinda surprised because I really expected his hand to be more disruptive. He draws and plays Goyf. Me: land go. He draws and plays a creature – all right, so just one unknown card, good for me. My 3rd turn Chant protected Ad Nauseam gets there.

In: 2 Echoing Truth 1 Thoughtseise, out: 2 Duress, 1 Chrome Mox (he had no wastelands)
I knew that he would definitively bring in some Hatebears – I also wanted the Blasts but could not find place for them.

I had to go to six while he goes to five. My hand consists of a cantrips and fast mana. I topdeck Ad Nauseam in turn five, protect it with Orims Chant, drop three LEDs, cast Ad Nauseam... Good times!

4.round – Zoo
dice – opponent (off course!)
In the first game I kill him with Ad Nauseam on turn two. It was just in time, as his board consisted of 2 Lynx one Nacatl and his grip was full of fire. He revealed his hand – he would have killed me the next turn.

In: 2 Echoing Truth, 1 Thoughtseise, out: 2 Duress, 1 Chrome Mox
(I consider Zoo to be a good MU, but as I saw him boarding 12 cards I got a bit uncertain...)

He drops turn Canonist on turn two, which nullifies my chances for going off the next turn. I could not find a solution and got violated by the cats...
I start the third game with Fetch, Thoughtseize taking a bear (I saw a LOT of burn on his hand). He goes Nacatl, pass. I play City and Brainstorm to get a hand that can make a bunch of tokens next turn. He bolts me and his cat drops me to 11. As far as I can remember he had Bolt,Price and Fireblast at that time. So making tokens would have brought me in his burn range, so I tried to topdeck the needed miracle – but anyway, the game over shortly after. So much about the good Matchup...

5.round – Combo Elves
dice – me (unbelievable!)
In this round TES showed how EPIC it can be and why it is such a bust to play this deck (at least when you know the rules and avoid stupid mistakes) !
My opponent used to play goblins but his first turn Lanowar Elf telegraphs something else. Like in my first match against dredge I feel pressed to go off on my second turn because he would definitively go for his glimpse-turn after dropping some combo pieces on his second turn. I played DR with BBUR floating(!), got an hand consisting of rituals, more mana and Ad Nauseam. From 20 to 3 revealing ETW (I thought it was useless in the given Situation – this could have been a mistake after all), DR(which should not have been there) and no LEDs... I stoped at 3 life played 2 cantrips without finding either LED, B.Wish or Tendrils. Eventually I conceded with a ton of mana and a huge storm count. Maybe I should have played ETW and see whether they could battle his army... I really fucked that one up! So I learned (by the hard way) that you do NOT shuffle back the DR in your deck before you start removing and drawing your fresh hand. Very stupid not to make sure about such an important rule when playing this deck...

In: 2 echoing Truth, out: Duress, Chrome Mox

I try to focus again on the game after my great performance in the previous game. My first turn gets me14 tokens – too fast for him.
Third game was second turn Ad Nauseam, B.Wish, kill.

6.round – Zoo
dice – me
I can not remember much about the first game. I played Ad Nauseam on turn three.

In: 2 Echoing Truth,1 TS - out: 2 Chant,1 Duress

Unfortunately I am lacking some details but this was very exciting match! He starts with Noble Hiearch and second turn GSZ for Gadock Teeg. I play my second land, ponder and find the bounce spell after shuffling. I play a Lotus Petal while complaining about the Ponder. He plays land, go. Eot I bounce Gaddock. then make 12 tokens during my next turn. Eot he bolts one of my tokens. Gaddock joins the party again. When I declare the swing, he bolts another, then blocks three loosing his Hierarch and his Dryad. Next turn the remaining 7 tokens swing again and Gaddock blocks one of them. As far as I remember he drops another creature but it is not enough to stop the green men. A very close match and a great opponent!

I feel quiet uncertain about the right SB-strategies and would like to get some feedback whether you would have boarded differently. Especially in the matches against blue decks I was uncertain about how much cards I can bring in without loosing too much consistency in my draws.

My SB was:
3 P.Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wipe Away
1 Grip
2 Echoing Truth
1 DR
1 Tendrils
1 ETW
1 Grapeshot
1 IGGY
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree

The Pyroclasm will be a Deathmark next time. I will try to squeeze one more in the SB because I had some troubles with Canonist & friends.

Best regards,

Bob

[Klazam]

Have anybody tried 4 xanthid swarm maindeck with three chant effects in sideboard? Pros and cons of this?

[ninja_attack]

Have anybody tried 4 xanthid swarm maindeck with three chant effects in sideboard? Pros and cons of this?

From my experiences, its probably better to board into xantids because in game 1, the removal spells are dead, when you enter game 2, they board out removal and you board into xantids, they sit on their thumbs while you combo them out....

[Pulp_Fiction]

@everyone: Please don't respond to Klazam.

@Klazam: .................. read a few pages of the thread before posting.

[Klazam]

Thanks for the quick answers.

Recently picked up the deck, still figuring out some things in the deck.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been running Molten Psyche (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Molten+Psyche&v=card&s=cname) as a wish target with much success. It's a very dangerous card, and single-handedly has won me games. The Metalcraft ability is highly relevant and makes a mini-tendrils even more useful. It's great off of a fizzled Ad Nauseam and if you use it after an AdN, you are almost guaranteed to meet the Metalcraft condition. It's a little bit of a pain because it's hella-terrible with Lion's Eye Diamond, but that's not a huge concern with this list as 4x Mox, 4x Petal, 4x LED (in response to Ad Nauseam pop for RRR), and rainbow lands/fetches etc. I love it and you should test it. I don't know if it's a replacement for Diminishing Returns, but so far it's been a target for me over D. Returns every time, no exceptions.

--ABC

[TUMBLES]

I'm not sure I agree with running a card with the main selling point of it being great after Ad Naus - where if you have the mana to wish/cast it you can just win instead.

And being great off a fizzled Ad Naus just seems negligible - how often are you both fizzling with Ad Naus *and* able to produce the mana to wish/play it?

Diminishing Returns is great because you get 7 new cards - period. I really can't think of many common situations that Molten Psyche would be better than other options.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

lol how long have you played the deck? People constantly complain of fizzling off of an ad nauseam. Also, it allows you to not go down to 2-4 life, but rather stop at a comfortable 8 life, play out some rits/artifacts, get 2rrr in your mana pool and "brainstorm" away all of the crap you flipped, draw that many cards again and win. Also, I've been *playtesting* it, whereas you are "not sure", and think it "seems negligible", wondering "how often you are fizzling and still able to wish and cast it". It's also just recently discussed that Diminishing returns is hit or miss with removing 10 cards and only drawing you seven whereas this draws x where x is next to never < 8, and that's not even mentioning that it can act as a better etw and gets around Teeg.

Please playtest it before simply disagreeing. I don't mind if you don't like it or think it is less efficient and say so after playtesting, but to say so without so much as a single goldfish to test your theories is ignorant, arrogant, and flat-out rediculous.

--ABC

[lorddotm]

lol how long have you played the deck? People constantly complain of fizzling off of an ad nauseam. Also, it allows you to not go down to 2-4 life, but rather stop at a comfortable 8 life, play out some rits/artifacts, get 2rrr in your mana pool and "brainstorm" away all of the crap you flipped, draw that many cards again and win. Also, I've been *playtesting* it, whereas you are "not sure", and think it "seems negligible", wondering "how often you are fizzling and still able to wish and cast it". It's also just recently discussed that Diminishing returns is hit or miss with removing 10 cards and only drawing you seven whereas this draws x where x is next to never < 8, and that's not even mentioning that it can act as a better etw and gets around Teeg.

Please playtest it before simply disagreeing. I don't mind if you don't like it or think it is less efficient and say so after playtesting, but to say so without so much as a single goldfish to test your theories is ignorant, arrogant, and flat-out rediculous.

--ABC

I tried it. It's terrible. You almost always want to use your Burning Wishes to get Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils, or Grapeshot, if that doesn't work go for Empty and Chant them, if that doesn't work, Diminishing Returns, and if that doesn't work, you've lost, not much else to say. Of course, you also need to dump out your hand in a Storm deck, so its only good post-Ad Nauseam which is a situation that usually solves itself with the aforementioned Wish plans. This is why Bryant, and most other good players don't post on this site anymore, some of you people come up with the stupidest cards.

[TUMBLES]

lol how long have you played the deck? People constantly complain of fizzling off of an ad nauseam. Also, it allows you to not go down to 2-4 life, but rather stop at a comfortable 8 life, play out some rits/artifacts, get 2rrr in your mana pool and "brainstorm" away all of the crap you flipped, draw that many cards again and win. Also, I've been *playtesting* it, whereas you are "not sure", and think it "seems negligible", wondering "how often you are fizzling and still able to wish and cast it". It's also just recently discussed that Diminishing returns is hit or miss with removing 10 cards and only drawing you seven whereas this draws x where x is next to never < 8, and that's not even mentioning that it can act as a better etw and gets around Teeg.

Please playtest it before simply disagreeing. I don't mind if you don't like it or think it is less efficient and say so after playtesting, but to say so without so much as a single goldfish to test your theories is ignorant, arrogant, and flat-out rediculous.

--ABC

Way to be incredibly rude.

I provided reasons I didn't think it was a good choice; you haven't done much to address them, and indeed misrepresented me in your 2nd sentence. Maybe I should go playtest Hunting Pack as well - someone suggested that a few pages ago!

[Wave]

lol how long have you played the deck? People constantly complain of fizzling off of an ad nauseam. Also, it allows you to not go down to 2-4 life, but rather stop at a comfortable 8 life, play out some rits/artifacts, get 2rrr in your mana pool and "brainstorm" away all of the crap you flipped, draw that many cards again and win. Also, I've been *playtesting* it, whereas you are "not sure", and think it "seems negligible", wondering "how often you are fizzling and still able to wish and cast it". It's also just recently discussed that Diminishing returns is hit or miss with removing 10 cards and only drawing you seven whereas this draws x where x is next to never < 8, and that's not even mentioning that it can act as a better etw and gets around Teeg.

Please playtest it before simply disagreeing. I don't mind if you don't like it or think it is less efficient and say so after playtesting, but to say so without so much as a single goldfish to test your theories is ignorant, arrogant, and flat-out rediculous.

--ABC

I´d rather play Warrior's Oath in that case, it´s cheaper and give you another try at your cards. however neither of them is that good since fizzling with Ad Nauseam in that manner won´t come up that often, and when it does, well grapeshot or chantwalk and hope for the best.

And lorddotm give him a break if Bryant and the rest is not posting anymore that is their choice complaining on someone trying to innovate is just not constructive for the discussion enviroment and blaming them for others lack of posting is not constructive, However I agree on the rest of your post, well written.

[lorddotm]

And lorddotm give him a break if Bryant and the rest is not posting anymore that is their choice complaining on someone trying to innovate is just not constructive for the discussion enviroment and blaming them for others lack of posting is not constructive, However I agree on the rest of your post, well written.

Adding bad cards to the deck is not trying to innovate, he literally added a card to the deck to help if we are winning. Plus, if we were looking for that kind of effect, wouldn't Winds of Change (I believe that is what it is called) be better?

Also, Bryant, pulp_fiction, and others, including myself, have commented on how this forum has gone to shit. It is unfortunate, but what can be done?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Because you know I'm JUST waiting for another Orim's Chant vs Xantid Swarm vs Thoughtseize vs Duress argument :rolleyes:

[Admiral_Arzar]

Because you know I'm JUST waiting for another Orim's Chant vs Xantid Swarm vs Thoughtseize vs Duress argument :rolleyes:

SPARE ME ARGH. Seriously, I can't deal with that again, especially after seeing somebody actually suggest Molten Psyche. I think my brain is undergoing nuclear meltdown...Time to go back to the storm boards.

[Dia_Bot]

I'm actually convinced that at this point there is very little left to talk about.
Everything that should be discussed has already been discussed and thoroughly tested and all the info is already available.
This thread has really helped me out when I started playing TES a long time ago and I can only advice newer players to:
1) read this thread instead of just asking everything over and over and over again...
2) (and pay attention because this one is crucial) Actually playtest to figure things out for yourself!

/end rant

[Wave]

Adding bad cards to the deck is not trying to innovate, he literally added a card to the deck to help if we are winning. Plus, if we were looking for that kind of effect, wouldn't Winds of Change (I believe that is what it is called) be better?

Also, Bryant, pulp_fiction, and others, including myself, have commented on how this forum has gone to shit. It is unfortunate, but what can be done?

Yup that would be better :)

Well I agree that the forums might not be what they used to be but to be honest there is not much else to say about the deck, Dia bot was spot on, everything that needs to be said about this deck has been said. The deck is probably optimized to it's maximum potential with the current cardpool and and the sideboard is dependant on the metagame. The only interesting thing left to post about the deck is tournament reports (that's what I always look for in this thread anyway). And this is probably true for alot of the decks in the Deck to beat section. That's probably the reason why so few post good posts these days.

[Bryant Cook]

1.) Molten Psyche or whateverthecardthatsterribleiscalled, is bad. Don't play cards that are only good after Ad Nauseam, ever. You've already won.

2.) Read the opening post people. Cards and topics are in there, it's organized and will stop repetitive questions.

3.) Xantid vs. Chant, they both get the job done.

4.) I don't post because I'm too busy in my last semester, It'll pick up after graduation. Slightly too because I've argued against dumb ideas for too long. If people want to stray away from my winning list, let 'em.

5.) Stop ruining my thread people.

[lorddotm]

How was everyone's Spring Break?

Mine involved the following: Legalizing myself to smoke weed. Waking up in an unknown part of town. Staying up till 4am with women. Smoking weed.

Also, I think everyone is aware that cards that are only good after Ad Nauseam are bad (well, most of the world...).

Bryant, do you still play? I haven't been seeing you in any Top 8s, I personally always enjoy your reports, so get back to winning. Also, put my report for SCG LA n the opening post. Maybe even my primer.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, do you still play? I haven't been seeing you in any Top 8s, I personally always enjoy your reports, so get back to winning. Also, put my report for SCG LA n the opening post. Maybe even my primer.

Not really when school is in session. I've played in three events since last summer, two top 16's and a scrub.

Your stuff was already in the opening post. READ THE OPENING POST!

[lorddotm]

Not really when school is in session. I've played in three events since last summer, two top 16's and a scrub.

Your stuff was already in the opening post. READ THE OPENING POST!

Are you going to Providence?

And I failed. My bad.

[TUMBLES]

I'm actually convinced that at this point there is very little left to talk about.
Everything that should be discussed has already been discussed and thoroughly tested and all the info is already available.
This thread has really helped me out when I started playing TES a long time ago and I can only advice newer players to:
1) read this thread instead of just asking everything over and over and over again...
2) (and pay attention because this one is crucial) Actually playtest to figure things out for yourself!

/end rant

Truth, this is actually a pretty good thread for the first 50 pages or so (until it ended up in Decks to Beat, from what I gather). Tons of info; reading it all + playtesting = you will actually know the reason behind card choices and won't make horrible suggestions! There really isn't much left to say at this point though... list is very tight with some meta flex in the sideboard.

People have been helpful in answering my situation specific questions at least :)

I'm bringing TES to a GPT on Sunday - in for disaster. I'll make sure to take notes so I can ask good questions and have it pointed out where I went wrong. Maybe I'll get to play against Zoo all day!


PS: late nights and weed = a good spring break

[Tammit67]

4.) I don't post because I'm too busy in my last semester, It'll pick up after graduation. Slightly too because I've argued against dumb ideas for too long. If people want to stray away from my winning list, let 'em.



Eh, not finding the pyroblasts as necessary these days. Swarms are back in vogue.

[TUMBLES]

Best tourney ever.

I stepped in a pile of dog shit walking to the site - pretty much an omen for the rest of the day. Only 8 people showed up = cut to top 8. I lost round 1. Fun times.

[Tammit67]

I'm bringing TES to a GPT on Sunday - in for disaster. I'll make sure to take notes so I can ask good questions and have it pointed out where I went wrong.



Best tourney ever.

I stepped in a pile of dog shit walking to the site - pretty much an omen for the rest of the day. Only 8 people showed up = cut to top 8. I lost round 1. Fun times.

Good notes :/

[TUMBLES]

Don't hate bro :-/



In seriousness, was a lot harder to take notes than I thought. Got distracted with playing and stayed up all night before to finish a paper, was all I could do to focus on the game.

Pretty much looked like:

Game 1: Duress ---> take relevant counter magic since I plan to go off next turn ---> he drew a Force and appropriately counters my mana, I don't recover before I die.

Game 2: Swarm on board, Ad Naus from 20 + land drop in hand, in response to attack trigger he Cliques ---> grabs my Ad Nauseam (Was not Rit/Rit, so I couldn't cast it with the bugger on the stack) ---> I draw dead until I die to Clique beatdown.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys,

I went to a 23-man GP Trial yesterday and decided to play this deck last second when I saw that the metagame was awful for my Lands deck. It was 5 rounds with a cut to top 8. I didn't drop a single game, and I now have 3 byes! My only difference between this and the stock list is that I run 4 Xantid Swarm instead of 4 Pyroblast in the SB. I really feel like this tilts the Fish matchup to being relatively favorable while sacrificing a lot vs. Countertop, which I feel is on a significant decline in competitive tournaments.

Some of the good plays I noticed myself making were:
-Not being afraid to mulligan and not being afraid to use Diminishing Returns when needed. I went off easily on a critical turn 2 on a mull to 5 against combo Elves.
-Adding mana for no reason off of Gemstone Mines so I could bust them in response to a timely Price of Progress. I had 10 gobbos in play already against Burn, and it was a good play considering the situation.
-Not boarding out Empty the Warrens against Cephalid Breakfast even though he was convinced I should have. He named Ad Nauseum with a turn 2 Meddling Mage (which I thought should have been Infernal Tutor), and I simply destroyed him with Goblins while using Chants proactively to keep him from possibly laying down his combo dudes (no Vial in play obv.). I thought it was strange that he thought I should have boarded it out, as he essentially tries to play as the control player post-SB, and 12+ Goblins early is essentially game.

I'm sure I made some questionable decisions as well, but it is not easy to notice what they were when I wasn't punished for them.

I have never played this deck before in a tournament, but I playtest it a lot. I have a couple questions for experienced players, so please only answer if you are quite certain in your response.

The situations:
When going for Ad Nauseum off of Infernal, let's say I have one additional mana of my choice for Ad Nauseum. Let's also assume that I have already made a land drop.

1) I have not seen Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, or Rite of Flame.
2) I have not seen Burning Wish, Rite of Flame, but I have seen a Dark Ritual.
3) I have not seen Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, but I have seen a Rite of Flame.
4) I have not seen Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, but I have seen a Burning Wish.

To simplify, here is what is left in my deck when I am planning to Ad Nauseum:

1) 3 Infernals, 4 Wishes, 4 Dark Rits, 4 Rite of Flames
2) 3 Infernals, 4 Wishes, 3 Dark Rits, 4 Rite of Flames
3) 3 Infernals, 4 Wishes, 4 Dark Rits, 3 Rite of Flames
4) 3 Infernals, 3 Wishes, 4 Dark Rits, 4 Rite of Flames

Obviously the numbers will often be skewed even more than here, but this is a good place to start. Would you float a black or a red mana in these situations? Would the number of Lotus Petals or Lion's Eye Diamonds affect your decision? Would the deck you are playing against (and hence the effectiveness of Empty the Warrens as a possible win) affect your decision?

There are so many things to consider here. The fact that there are more black sources in the deck for Chrome Mox is even something to consider. These are very basic situations that I really need to make confident plans for before I bring this to the next tournament.

Thanks in advance. If anyone could answer this with a level of confidence and reasoning behind it, I would be grateful.

[Zamussels]

@patrunkenphat : Good report with cool plays, thanks for posting. I don't have enough experience with the deck to answer your questions (you could possibly use the float % for Diminishing Returns in the OP as guideline though) but have some of my own.

For people playing Xantid Swarm in the SB, I have noticed some run a Tropical Island and some don't.. If you don't run it, would you side it in for a Volcanic Island or a Chrome Mox (or else?) if you had it, but prefer to have more space in the SB? Or do you not run it as you don't think it is useful? Does it depend on the number of decks you intend to side in Swarm against? Would you side it in against anything with Force of Will, or Force+Daze, Force+Spell Pierce, etc? For reference, the usual lists have 10 ways to make G in the maindeck (4 gemstone, 4 petal, 2 city), and with a Trop it goes up to 15. I'm not counting LED for GGG and Chrome Mox imprinting Swarm or Krosan Grip here...

[bennotsi]

Obviously the numbers will often be skewed even more than here, but this is a good place to start. Would you float a black or a red mana in these situations? Would the number of Lotus Petals or Lion's Eye Diamonds affect your decision? Would the deck you are playing against (and hence the effectiveness of Empty the Warrens as a possible win) affect your decision?


I prefer to keep red mana floating for burning wish, especially if you have seen 2 LED's already. The point is that Infernal Tutor requires hellbent, which after Ad Nauseam usually means that you need to also find a LED.
When you keep red mana floating, you only need to find one initial mana source to generate a lot of black mana of your dark rituals.

It's situational off course, but I would certainly take the number of LED's you've seen into the equation.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I prefer to keep red mana floating for burning wish, especially if you have seen 2 LED's already. The point is that Infernal Tutor requires hellbent, which after Ad Nauseam usually means that you need to also find a LED.
When you keep red mana floating, you only need to find one initial mana source to generate a lot of black mana of your dark rituals.

It's situational off course, but I would certainly take the number of LED's you've seen into the equation.

It is true that you will likely be casting Burning Wish if you have seen a couple LED's, however you would only need one initial red mana source as well for the Burning Wish, and you still need 2 black for the Tendrils, leading me to believe that the number of Rituals and Rites would be important at that point. If you assuming that you are not going to find LED, the next step is deciding what accel is more likely to pop up based off what you have already seen. The only real benefit to floating red over black in that situation would be the possibility of imprinting Duress onto Chrome Mox, which I suppose is legitimate; however, you must also take into account the possibility of flipping a Tendrils. Also depending on the number of Rites you have seen, future Rites have the possibility of producing less, more, or equal many than Ritual.

This is very complicated, and I am trying to find a concrete method for determining what mana should be floating. People might have a 'feeling', just like me, but I am wondering if anyone knows for certain which is better.

[Dark Ritual]

It depends on whether you have made a land drop prior to casting ad nauseam, along with how many chrome mox and petal's are left in the deck. I find that after I resolve ad nauseam at a safe life total which is 14 or more typically I find everything I need to combo off because this deck is so well equipped to win after resolving AdN at a safe life total. If I had to choose between a black or red mana floating though it's situational depending on how many LED's are left and how many infernal tutors and burning wishes are left to be revealed. If I only have 2 LEDs left in deck I would float red for burning wish since it doesn't rely on you being hellbent. This is especially true if only 1 LED if left in deck. If 0 are left in deck, I think you should straight win probably lol.

[Andy_V]

Not that TES needs more ways to win, but does Phyrexian Unlife (or whatever that card will be called in English) deserve a spot?

It essentially reads, play Ad Nauseam and draw your whole deck without consequence, for 2 extra mana (as the two life initial investment will be inconsequential).

That said, it also works against Tendrils, requiring a Tendrils for 20 and a Grapeshot kicker (sorry UB ANT).

This should also get around 3-sphere as the phyrexian mana should count for CMC.

Additionally, it will buy you 8 extra life (-2 initial life +10 poison) against aggro decks that can't deal with it. This could be beneficial against something like Pyrostatic Pillar.

Just a thought...

[Esper3k]

This should also get around 3-sphere as the phyrexian mana should count for CMC.
.

I don't believe Phyrexian Unlife uses Phyrexian Mana in its casting cost.

However, even if it did, you would still have to pay 3 total mana for it under a Trinisphere. Trinisphere only cares about how much mana was paid to cast a spell, not the spell's cmc (thus, FoW still costs minimally 3 mana even if you use its alternate cost).

[Andy_V]

Oh, sorry for that... got too excited for a minute. It doesn't use phyrexian mana (at least based on the JP pictures), so now is a much less interesting choice. Lame.

There will likely not be anything for TES then out of NPH... Guess we'll just have to keep winning the "old-fashioned" way.

[Jason]

For people playing Xantid Swarm in the SB, I have noticed some run a Tropical Island and some don't.. If you don't run it, would you side it in for a Volcanic Island or a Chrome Mox (or else?) if you had it, but prefer to have more space in the SB? Or do you not run it as you don't think it is useful?

I actually tried a singleton Tropical Island strategy and boarded it in against decks like Merfolk, where I wanted both the extra land to help fight against Wasteland and the green mana to cast Xantid Swarm. Unfortunately, I was seeing the Trop in opening hands without Xantid Swarm or I was seeing Xantid Swarms in hands full of rainbow mana (so the Trop was still unnecessary). It wasn't that it was bad most of the time; it was that it just wasn't needed. So I cut it for a relevant sideboard card but am still running Xantid Swarms. With Lotus Petals and rainbow lands, I haven't had an issue casting it when I need to.

[Shax]

What do you players think about the new Mental Misstep card in TES/ against TES? We essentially get to use Duress but see it countered for 2 life now and let them have Spell Peirce mana open on a on the draw situation. This card is busted nuts against most of our answers though. Is it wise to use a card that cost us 2 life when we run Ad Nauseam? Only City of Brass does this and it is a 2-of in Kobe Bryant's list. Aside from our fetches anyway.

I think this card is good and deserves discussion on how it will effect TES's line of plays.

[AriLax]

Counterspell + Lion's Eye Diamond = no.

As for fighting it, I think the correct plan is just don't give a fuck and play some disruption, just like how you fight Force of Will.

[Lego]

I haven't seen any discussion of Gitaxian Probe.

Gitaxian Probe
[U/p] Sorcery
Look at target player's hand.
Draw a card.
([U/p] may be payed with U or 2 life)

It's pretty similar to Street Wraith (not that you would ever play Street Wraith with Ad Nauseum in the deck)... it shows your opponent's hand and generates additional storm, but it makes Ad Nauseum slightly worse by costing 2 life, and it makes mulligan decisions worse.

Off the bat, it doesn't seem like it does enough, but I suppose you could at least justify testing it.

[GexxX]

I haven't seen any discussion of Gitaxian Probe.

Gitaxian Probe
[U/p] Sorcery
Look at target player's hand.
Draw a card.
([U/p] may be payed with U or 2 life)

It's pretty similar to Street Wraith (not that you would ever play Street Wraith with Ad Nauseum in the deck)... it shows your opponent's hand and generates additional storm, but it makes Ad Nauseum slightly worse by costing 2 life, and it makes mulligan decisions worse.

Off the bat, it doesn't seem like it does enough, but I suppose you could at least justify testing it.

I think we do not have any room to test it. What will you cut to pack one in? I mean I really don't care to often what my opponents hand is. You have to either stop him from countering (silence, chant and duress are in the deck for that purpose) or you have to play some bait for their counters (pretty much any spell that is broken). The information does not really do anything and drawing a card for 2life is not the best plan.

I do admit though. Adding storm for zero mana is strong, I just doubt it's strong enough to make it in TES. I also feel Mental Misstep and Surgial Extraction do more for basically the same mana cost. Drawing a card CAN make a big difference, but that's pretty much gambling and having at least some protection from duress, toughtseize, spell snare, spell pierce OR removing keycards from you opponents Hand/GY/Lib is less of a luck-factor.

Edit:
I think with mystical tutor still unbanned the card would be pretty cool! For ANT...^^

[Kyle Hyde]

How does tutor chaining work?

[lorddotm]

How does tutor chaining work?

If you have lots of mana, you can cast Infernal into Infernal, etc to get more storm before you grab Tendrils of Agony.

[Kyle Hyde]

If you have lots of mana, you can cast Infernal into Infernal, etc to get more storm before you grab Tendrils of Agony.

Ok. I thought that was what it was. I was hoping there was a trick I wasn't seeing.

[TossUsToLions]

Hey everyone, just started playing TES. This is undoubtedly the cockiest thread I have ever seen in my life. I think I'll love it here...

Anyways, I would also like to hear what people think about Mental Misstep? How will it affect us, and is there any merit to testing it against cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Stifle, Spell Pierce, etc.

Honestly, I don't see it being game-breaking against us. It only hits our protection spells, cantrips, and rituals, but none of our bombs. But I think only time will tell how this card fits into legacy.

[Tammit67]

Counterspell + Lion's Eye Diamond = no.

As for fighting it, I think the correct plan is just don't give a fuck and play some disruption, just like how you fight Force of Will.

[ryl417]

Hey everyone, just started playing TES. This is undoubtedly the cockiest thread I have ever seen in my life. I think I'll love it here...

Anyways, I would also like to hear what people think about Mental Misstep? How will it affect us, and is there any merit to testing it against cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Stifle, Spell Pierce, etc.

Honestly, I don't see it being game-breaking against us. It only hits our protection spells, cantrips, and rituals, but none of our bombs. But I think only time will tell how this card fits into legacy.

Humbly, fuck mental misstep. This deck powers through Merfolk if and when played correctly, which packs quite the heavy counter suite. You've got chants / silences, plus what are you going to cut?

[Andy_V]

Humbly, fuck mental misstep. This deck powers through Merfolk if and when played correctly, which packs quite the heavy counter suite. You've got chants / silences, plus what are you going to cut?

Well said... frankly, i'd prefer them to cut Spell Snare for MM and stop leaving mana untapped trying to bait me to forget about MM. It's just another fuckin counterspell (dazing a petal could be bad for us). Either they cut other/better counters for it (wash) or or they cut pressure (++). Storm tends to have inevitability, if not locked out (chalice/crucible+waste/3sphere) and few decks can really lock you out.

Yes, it's good against storm if the storm player doesn't put you on it and doesn't try to play around it, but paying phyrexian for it means I have to get to 9, not 10.

If I played folk and had to win against goblins, i'd play it, but I don't have to worry about either deck, because I play TES.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I agree. The Merfolk matchup might become sligthly harder since you can't just go for Xantid Swarm and win anymore if they pack Mental Misstep, but if people are cutting Spell Snare from their decks for this. Well, thanks. Also, I'm pretty sure most people won't use Mental Misstep to counter the right spells anyway. I'm not afraid of it at all, at least not when playing TES.

[GexxX]

MM will affect us way less than other Decks. (DD and ANT for instance) since we basically rely on different cards(edit: what I am trying to say is that we play less cantrips and more tutors). Decks that Pack MM in addition to their usual counters are less likely to put us on a fast clock. That means we have time to find a way to beat them to pieces regardless what they counter. In case they switch their counterpack and exchange I predict our chances of winning are even higher. Spell Snare hits all of our tutors I'd love them to not play it.
Merfolk can pack MM to fight Xantid, but I doubt that it's going to be more played than Daze. And for those worried about them countering silence/chant/duress -> we often play some counterbait. so what exactly is the difference? They make the storm +1 and in most cases even lower it by 1 for paying two life(theoretically) ...

Personally I am not convinced the card will be such a beast, but time will tell ;)

[ninja_attack]

Hey everyone, just started playing TES. This is undoubtedly the cockiest thread I have ever seen in my life. I think I'll love it here...

Anyways, I would also like to hear what people think about Mental Misstep? How will it affect us, and is there any merit to testing it against cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Stifle, Spell Pierce, etc.

Honestly, I don't see it being game-breaking against us. It only hits our protection spells, cantrips, and rituals, but none of our bombs. But I think only time will tell how this card fits into legacy.

There are ways to win around mental misstep, It also depends on the way they evaluate their hand, almost the same way they evaluate their hand based on force, most of the decks our team has been testing with misstep have been advocating cutting Daze, so that means we only have to worry about force and misstep.

Like I was saying, we can win through misstep with hands like LED, LED, Land, Mox, Card to inprint, Tutor.

[kilukru]

This is what I wrote in the MM thread :

A curious thing about MM is that one of the archetype it will affect the less is actully combo. Control deck that will play MM will either remove daze, spell pierce of spell snare for it, so the disruption density remain the same and that disruption density is the main thing you worry about when playing combo.

For non-blue deck non black deck, if the play 4 MM, fine, thats really thin protection against combo, if they run nothing else against it (Teg, etc...) it wont matter

For black deck, chance are that black deck that will run MM will cut some kind of hand disruption for it, so once again, the disruption density remain the same. If they do run the fulll suit of hand disruption and MM, then the rest of the deck will be real thin, so a slow clock, unless they get that Tombstalker real fast!

So I dont beleive we need to worry about this card

[leegoo]

I almost want to switch decks from DDFT to TES, not for any rational reason, but just because this is the only combo thread on the source that isn't preaching doom and gloom since the spoiling of MM.

[LostButSeeking]

I almost want to switch decks from DDFT to TES, not for any rational reason, but just because this is the only combo thread on the source that isn't preaching doom and gloom since the spoiling of MM.

At least part of that is the nature of the deck. Most of the other storm decks (and I've only played Rev314, but I think this is applicable to other versions as well) run more cantrips (Brainstorm+Ponder+Sensei's Top+Preordain) and fewer actual tutors, so they have to dig harder. Since we run both infernal tutor and burning wish, we're less vulnerable to that sort of disruption (although it does affect us to some extent).

I'm pretty sure it will make things (at least a little) uglier. If, say, a zoo player (if zoo decides to run it), plays a first turn Wild Nactl followed by a misstep on our ponder it will be irksome as hell. I'm also anticipating the merfolk matchup getting worse because they have a (free) answer to our protection spells, Silence, Chant and Duress. Ugh. However, realize that doing that (while not costing them mana) does cost them a card. This is super relevent in the zoo matchup, as they rely on being pretty balls to the walls with the burn spells and the hate bears to get to us before we combo off. Even one fewer burn spell could be the difference between victory and defeat for them, and they have to cut something to fit in the missteps. . .

Still, the deck is pretty silly, and we've all seen the deck fight through hate before, or we wouldn't be here. Is anyone excited about comboing off for 9 storm and doing 18 damage, looking at their faces when they realize their misstep killed them? Because I am.

[x8eikdls]

Mental Misstep won't do much to this deck.

First off, what does it counter?

Ponder? I have 3 other Ponders and 4 Brainstorms.
Duress? I have 3 other Duress and 4 Chants.
Dark Ritual? I have 3 other Dark Ritual, 4 Rite of Flames, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 LED, and 4 Chrome Mox.

What doesn't it counter?

Infernal Tutor. Burning Wish. Ad Nauseam.

Basically, everything Misstep counters is a redundant spell. The reason this card completely rapes High Tide is because it counters the actual card High Tide, and there is no other card in that deck that does what High Tide does. However, anything MM can counter in TES is in the deck in at least 8 copies.

The biggest impact MM will have is post-board, when Xantid Swarm is brought in. Control decks now have 8 cards that can counter a turn 1 Xantid Swarm when they are on the draw. That's huge. And that is the only real negative impact MM will have on this deck.

Second, what cards are being cut for MM? Most decks are cutting Daze, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare. They aren't adding 4 MM to their deck while keeping their disruption/counters consistent, so opposing decks will still have roughly the same number of interactive cards. Here's the upside, though: Spell Pierce and Spell Snare are both better than MM vs TES. Spell Pierce can hit everything MM can (minus Swarm), in addition to the non-replaceable cards like Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish. Dropping Spell Snare is a HUGE upside. Spell Snare counters the most important cards in the deck (IT and BW) for 1 mana. Furthermore, a Spell Snare countering a Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor is generally going to be more harmful because you're more "all-in" at the point you cast those spells. Rituals are generally cast at that point, not to mention LEDs being cracked in response, so countering your spell at that point is going to be more impactfull than countering the Dark Ritual at the start of the turn.

Third, people are talking about adding MM to every deck. Literally, every deck. Zoo, Goblins, Dredge, everything. That's awful. If you're playing an aggro deck and the only way you feel you can compete is to play MM to counter their MM, you should probably be looking for a new deck. If those decks do add MM to their decks, or even the sideboard, I feel they will cut anti-Storm cards to fit them. I feel like they would replace Mindbreak Traps and Thorn of Amethyst with MM, under the impression that MM will fight Storm just as well. And well, that's a huge, huge bonus for TES.

On Gataxian Probe: it's trash. Don't play it in this deck. It isn't free, as the 2 life you pay means 2 less cards you can draw off Ad Nauseam. The info you gain is awesome, but if you really want another card to look at their hand, add Thoughtseize before Probe. Now you get to look at their hand AND take that Force of Will.

On Surgical Extraction: Why is this even being mentioned? If this deck doesn't even want Extirpate, why would you consider adding a worse Extirpate to the deck?

[ninja_attack]

Mental Misstep won't do much to this deck.

First off, what does it counter?

Ponder? I have 3 other Ponders and 4 Brainstorms.
Duress? I have 3 other Duress and 4 Chants.
Dark Ritual? I have 3 other Dark Ritual, 4 Rite of Flames, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 LED, and 4 Chrome Mox.

What doesn't it counter?

Infernal Tutor. Burning Wish. Ad Nauseam.

Basically, everything Misstep counters is a redundant spell. The reason this card completely rapes High Tide is because it counters the actual card High Tide, and there is no other card in that deck that does what High Tide does. However, anything MM can counter in TES is in the deck in at least 8 copies.

The biggest impact MM will have is post-board, when Xantid Swarm is brought in. Control decks now have 8 cards that can counter a turn 1 Xantid Swarm when they are on the draw. That's huge. And that is the only real negative impact MM will have on this deck.

Second, what cards are being cut for MM? Most decks are cutting Daze, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare. They aren't adding 4 MM to their deck while keeping their disruption/counters consistent, so opposing decks will still have roughly the same number of interactive cards. Here's the upside, though: Spell Pierce and Spell Snare are both better than MM vs TES. Spell Pierce can hit everything MM can (minus Swarm), in addition to the non-replaceable cards like Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish. Dropping Spell Snare is a HUGE upside. Spell Snare counters the most important cards in the deck (IT and BW) for 1 mana. Furthermore, a Spell Snare countering a Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor is generally going to be more harmful because you're more "all-in" at the point you cast those spells. Rituals are generally cast at that point, not to mention LEDs being cracked in response, so countering your spell at that point is going to be more impactfull than countering the Dark Ritual at the start of the turn.

Third, people are talking about adding MM to every deck. Literally, every deck. Zoo, Goblins, Dredge, everything. That's awful. If you're playing an aggro deck and the only way you feel you can compete is to play MM to counter their MM, you should probably be looking for a new deck. If those decks do add MM to their decks, or even the sideboard, I feel they will cut anti-Storm cards to fit them. I feel like they would replace Mindbreak Traps and Thorn of Amethyst with MM, under the impression that MM will fight Storm just as well. And well, that's a huge, huge bonus for TES.

On Gataxian Probe: it's trash. Don't play it in this deck. It isn't free, as the 2 life you pay means 2 less cards you can draw off Ad Nauseam. The info you gain is awesome, but if you really want another card to look at their hand, add Thoughtseize before Probe. Now you get to look at their hand AND take that Force of Will.

Well said sir.

[lorddotm]

What do you guys think of Last Chance? It is probably terrible, but part of me wants to try it. Then again, I am not really in a mental state to be evaluating cards.

[Diprivan]

What do you guys think of Last Chance? It is probably terrible, but part of me wants to try it. Then again, I am not really in a mental state to be evaluating cards.

Honestly, I think it's terrible. :confused:

RR is not allways easily castable and it gives us:
- 1 extra draw (brainstorm and ponder both do this much better)
- untap (not really relevant, unless it allows us to drop another land)
- random etw race wins. (etw shouldn't be played when opponent has a reasonable chance of racing it + etw usually requires LED, so your hoping that one of your next 2 draws is a burning wish -> last chance + mana to cast it)

Though I don't really care about the lose the game part (when you go for your big turn, you win now or lose now most of the time), I don't believe this card merits a spot in an already really tight wishboard.

[lorddotm]

Honestly, I think it's terrible. :confused:

RR is not allways easily castable and it gives us:
- 1 extra draw (brainstorm and ponder both do this much better)
- untap (not really relevant, unless it allows us to drop another land)
- random etw race wins. (etw shouldn't be played when opponent has a reasonable chance of racing it + etw usually requires LED, so your hoping that one of your next 2 draws is a burning wish -> last chance + mana to cast it)

Though I don't really care about the lose the game part (when you go for your big turn, you win now or lose now most of the time), I don't believe this card merits a spot in an already really tight wishboard.

Your Wishboard is tight? I have a flexslot right now occupied by Hurkyl's Recall, and there have definitely been time where I think an extra turn would be exactly what I need, that being said, RR is a harsh cost to pay.

Once again, a disclaimer, I don't have class tomorrow, so I am not in a position to be seriously making any sort of suggestions.

[GexxX]

I don't believe this card merits a spot in an already really tight wishboard.

That's what I think. There might be situations where the card can be really cool, but let's be honest it's a minimum of cases.
Let's say we need it for a Landdrop we have to trade BW for it and recieve a random card in exchange. PLUS we lose the game. After that turn.
That means we have to be absolutely sure to win after the turn and can't wait for them to untap/attack/do whatsoever. I feel like the percentage of that case is lower 2% and I bet there are better Lines of play.
It looks quite cool to have the chance of "Timewalking" into the ETW win, BUT you have to draw into BW PLUS you have to havethe mana to cast it on the table, unless you did not use LED to cast it and have the BW in hand. And still you have to have the mana (1RRR). Lets make it 1% of the games.

Rounding it up to 3% making it every ~34th match that means at best you'll have a benefit of it once in a tournament playing 7swiss rounds and reaching the finals.
Now think about a Card in your SB that makes games less likely to win with. In mine there's none. -> I won't play it and I don't feel like it makes any matchup better.

[leegoo]

Last Chance seems *Meh* in the same vein as Diminishing Returns. That isn't to say it's horrible or anything, but I can't imagine there being enough times it's relevant to justify it's slot. That said, I'm not sure Hurkyl's Recall is that amazing either. (And honestly, I'd rather have Rebuild over Hurkyl's anyway... sometimes chalice @ 2 happens...)

That said, I'm not sure I have any amazing suggestions either.

[Diprivan]

Your Wishboard is tight? I have a flexslot right now occupied by Hurkyl's Recall, and there have definitely been time where I think an extra turn would be exactly what I need, that being said, RR is a harsh cost to pay.

Once again, a disclaimer, I don't have class tomorrow, so I am not in a position to be seriously making any sort of suggestions.

Hurkyl's recall is just meh. Can you post your current SB please?

PS: my SB is tighter than Rihanna's ass :confused:

[TUMBLES]

Last Chance doesn't seem that good. I could see it being used if for whatever reason you need to untap after Ad Naus or something to kill, but how often are you unable to kill while being able to get that Last Chance. Seems Meh for supporting ETW strikes too.

Regarding Mental Misstep, the 'problem' it could theoretically cause for TES is by making Counterbalance decks more viable by providing them an additional method to stop Aether Vial. Not sure how realistic this is though; otherwise it's just another counter to play around - and if they're cutting other counters to run them it's probably less effective than what it's replacing against us.

[Bryant Cook]

Your Wishboard is tight? I have a flexslot right now occupied by Hurkyl's Recall, and there have definitely been time where I think an extra turn would be exactly what I need, that being said, RR is a harsh cost to pay.

Once again, a disclaimer, I don't have class tomorrow, so I am not in a position to be seriously making any sort of suggestions.

I'm playing Meltdown at the moment, with the raise of Affinity and artifact base decks it's not a poor choice.

[lorddotm]

I'm playing Meltdown at the moment, with the raise of Affinity and artifact base decks it's not a poor choice.

That's interesting, we both came to similar conclusions, you have both Spree and Meltdown and I have Spree and Recall. Do you really think Meltdown is better to wish for than Spree or better to draw than Recall?

My sideboard is the same as my Top 4 list, -1 Seize +1 Recall. I don't think I've ever wished for Seize. Against decks that I would do that, I just grab EtW.

[Diprivan]

That's interesting, we both came to similar conclusions, you have both Spree and Meltdown and I have Spree and Recall. Do you really think Meltdown is better to wish for than Spree or better to draw than Recall?

My sideboard is the same as my Top 4 list, -1 Seize +1 Recall. I don't think I've ever wished for Seize. Against decks that I would do that, I just grab EtW.

I prefer meltdown, because being able to wish for it > just hoping to draw it and hurkyl's recall still loses to chalice @ 2.

1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Wipeaway
1 Krosan Grip
2 Echoing Truth
4 Xantid Swarm

1 Hurkyl's recall

So this is your current SB?

For now, I'm testing: - 1 hurkyl's recall, -2 echoing truth, -1 wipe away; + 1 meltdown, +3 chain of vapor

note: I just skipped on counterbalance hate for now, as nobody plays it. However, since everybody thinks mental misstep will make EVERY deck better, I expect some metagame shifts and a possible return of counterbalance to the scene, forcing us to play hate for it again.

So, if counterbalance returns... what should we play?

Pyroblast?
I never really liked the pyroblast approach, since when balance hit play, you just had to hope for your opponent to make a mistake to take it out.

Doomsday package?
Though an excellent answer to counterbalance decks, I think ANT is better suited to play the DD game post SB. Besides, it takes much space in our crammed wish SB.

Some combination of krosan grip/wipe away?
Maybe our best pick, though I personally still believe there has to be something better for us.

Empty the warrens plan?
I just want to mention it (again): some years ago I tested an approach in which I boarded to 3-4 copies of empty the warrens post SB against CB. (credit goes to the Dutch team of team Nijmegen, as I think they developed it first)
Etw is just able to storm through a resolved counterbalance and with that much copies of it, we are able to consistly create some goblins turn 1/2 and again and again if necessary. As another plus, it only requires 2-3 spots in our SB. What do you think, fellow combo players? Is it still a viable plan?

To clarify, from my latest tournament report:

Round 4: Countertop bant

G1: He leads tropical island, top. I duress, he fows, pitching brainstorm. Turn 2, he plays counterbalance. Hooray. I burning wish for empty the warrens. He plays tarmogoyf and starts beating for 3 a turn. I build up to 4 lands. When He taps 3 of his 4 lands for a KOTR, I get my chance: I chant, he activates top in response, in response I play another chant, he taps top in response, I respond with dark ritual (fow), dark ritual. Dark ritual resolves, counterbalance counters my chants. I play lotus petal, lotus petal, empty the warrens for 16. The tokens get there.

So, I just hope to create some new discussion in this thread, which really has gone to shit lately. :frown:

[leegoo]

I really don't hate the empty the warrens plan. I certainly like it better than Blast. A considerable number of the games I won with ANT vs. CB (before DD/Emrakul was tech) involved boarding in extra Tendrils and just forcing through copies.

In some of the *other* storm threads, City of Solitude has been mentioned a couple of times.

While it seems expensive, completely turning off top tricks would certainly make life easier, and it fits a similar role as swarm (though obviously infinitely slower)

- there is also Bound//Determined if it comes to replacing chant effects. It's interesting in that it has the side effect of completely nullifying Chalice on 1 (for the turn anyways)

[LostButSeeking]

Pyroblast?
I never really liked the pyroblast approach, since when balance hit play, you just had to hope for your opponent to make a mistake to take it out.


While I can't say I ever really LIKED the pyroblast plan (Sitting there with an infernal tutor, two leds and a pyroblast, staring at an opponent with the I-have-a-force-smile on his face is horrible), I have to say that simply countering the CB has worked wonders for me a couple of times.



Doomsday package?
Though an excellent answer to counterbalance decks, I think ANT is better suited to play the DD game post SB. Besides, it takes much space in our crammed wish SB.


I traded for all of the cards to play Emidln's Doomsday Emrakul list (Rev314) . . . and I hated it. A lot. I felt like games would go like this. t1. Brainstorm. T2. Ponder. T3 Top + Spin. T4. I die. I would simply cantrip cantrip cantrip cantrip and never do anything. Theoretically the deck was stronger against wasteland (because it ran basics) but I found that, because of the fewer mana sources (chromes, rituals, etc.) the deck was often mana light--you have to cut things for the cantrips and lands, after all. Not to mention the fact that the alternative win condition involves a nonbasic land. I tested the deck, and it did win--don't let my unhappiness with the deck make you think that it didn't win--but I felt that it won despite the DD plan, more often than because of it. However, this was during a lull in countertop--maybe I should resleave it and do some more testing.



Some combination of krosan grip/wipe away?
Maybe our best pick, though I personally still believe there has to be something better for us.


I love Grip. Love that stupid card, but I loathe Wipe Away. I've taken it out of my sideboard and have never looked back. I realize it's flexible, and deals with CB AND hatebears, but I find it a really bad way of dealing with both, as you HAVE to be able to win on the next turn after doing it. Additionally, the 1UU cost has been backbreaking on more than one occasion. When Wipe Away lost me three games in a tournament--two games when it should have been grip and another game--when it should have been deathmark--I pulled it and haven't looked back. Anyone else have feelings about this card?



Empty the warrens plan?
I just want to mention it (again): some years ago I tested an approach in which I boarded to 3-4 copies of empty the warrens post SB against CB. (credit goes to the Dutch team of team Nijmegen, as I think they developed it first)
Etw is just able to storm through a resolved counterbalance and with that much copies of it, we are able to consistly create some goblins turn 1/2 and again and again if necessary. As another plus, it only requires 2-3 spots in our SB. What do you think, fellow combo players? Is it still a viable plan?


Do you guys see Bant CB? Mine's always Thopters, which runs EE.

[sclabman]

Got second at a small 8-man, 3 round tournament up here in Davis. I ran the standard list with this sb:

1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pyroclasm
1x Deathmark
1x Thoughtseize
1x Krosan Grip
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
3x Pyroblast


I wanted to play this deck a little more before Mental Misstep throws a wrench into the metagame and I probably move over to Doomsday builds. I was trying to work out a Canadian Thresh variant of my own but couldn't get ahold of submerges or Fire//Ice for the tournament so I just decided to go in with what I know best and wouldn't be too hard to pilot (counter-intuitive haha, but I hate creature combat math and all the bullshit that goes into winning with creatures. Sometimes it's just more relaxing to play some Dark Rituals).

R1 Sean with Burn
I knew he was probably playing burn since he played it at the last tournament and he told me prior that he wasn't playing the combo deck he was working on. He probably knew I was playing TES though since we had tested a few games before and I usually play it up here. Anyway, I'm not too sure about how this matchup goes, though I imagine it's quite good due to TES's ability to go off faster than burn can kill, though Ad Nauseam is risky.
G1: Went off to a good start. He put down a bunch of Goblin Guides which whiffed on their land-giving ability and put me down to 12 or so. I then made a bunch of goblins, and then was able to mini-tendrils and take home the win.
G2: Was forced to do a mini tendrils to stay alive, but was still on a clock from 18 with a Pyrostatic Pillar out and his Hellsparks and Fireblasts. I wished for IGG as a last ditch to get back 2x Dark ritual and Tendrils to kill him at what I thought was 6 but turned out I wasn't keeping track of his life-loss from the pillar and had I wished for a single Tendrils I may have won. Though it was close.
G3: I tendrils him down to 8 or so on the first couple turns and then wait around to build my hand up while sitting at a cool 27. He had a bunch of burn but I ended up doing another Tendrils a couple turns later.
These were good matches against a great player and cool guy.

R2 Matt (I think) with Combo elves
G1: I keep a slower hand and he goes off T3 with Burning Wish into Tendrils after playing six million spells. That's what my deck is supposed to do!
G2: I keep a slower hand but with Chants and Duresses to kill off his Glimpses and Thorns. I end up getting aggro-ed out when I draw into nothing.

R3 Alexi with Bant (with Zenith and Stoneforge)
G1: I had the Ad Nauseam T2 but decided to wait for some protection since I wasn't really under a clock. He gets me down to 10 where I decide I should just go for it with the backup option of a mini Tendrils to buy time. My ADN resolves and I IGG loop to get there with exactly the right amount of mana and ending at 4 life.
G2: I try to do a quick Ad nauseam (I drew it both games). I had to resolve a Lotus Petal for the right mana, but in response to me casting it he Cliques me, taking the ADN. I draw into a Rite of Flame, giving me more mana to BW for Empty for 16 goblins. He had out a Knight and a SFM. He scooped when he couldn't find an answer.

The elf player ended up getting first, and he was the only 3-0 player so I ended up second place with $20 in store credit. Overall a good tournament, and I'm glad that the scene is being built up more and more! Next time I'm hoping to bring something else!

[Diprivan]

While I can't say I ever really LIKED the pyroblast plan (Sitting there with an infernal tutor, two leds and a pyroblast, staring at an opponent with the I-have-a-force-smile on his face is horrible), I have to say that simply countering the CB has worked wonders for me a couple of times.



I traded for all of the cards to play Emidln's Doomsday Emrakul list (Rev314) . . . and I hated it. A lot. I felt like games would go like this. t1. Brainstorm. T2. Ponder. T3 Top + Spin. T4. I die. I would simply cantrip cantrip cantrip cantrip and never do anything. Theoretically the deck was stronger against wasteland (because it ran basics) but I found that, because of the fewer mana sources (chromes, rituals, etc.) the deck was often mana light--you have to cut things for the cantrips and lands, after all. Not to mention the fact that the alternative win condition involves a nonbasic land. I tested the deck, and it did win--don't let my unhappiness with the deck make you think that it didn't win--but I felt that it won despite the DD plan, more often than because of it. However, this was during a lull in countertop--maybe I should resleave it and do some more testing.



I love Grip. Love that stupid card, but I loathe Wipe Away. I've taken it out of my sideboard and have never looked back. I realize it's flexible, and deals with CB AND hatebears, but I find it a really bad way of dealing with both, as you HAVE to be able to win on the next turn after doing it. Additionally, the 1UU cost has been backbreaking on more than one occasion. When Wipe Away lost me three games in a tournament--two games when it should have been grip and another game--when it should have been deathmark--I pulled it and haven't looked back. Anyone else have feelings about this card?



Do you guys see Bant CB? Mine's always Thopters, which runs EE.

EE thopters: I agree the goblins plan is much less appealing against them. However, in Belgium, it's a very rare deck to encounter, so I don't mind.

Pyroblast: Sitting there with an infernal tutor, two leds and a pyroblast, staring at an opponent with the I-have-a-force-smile on his face is horrible = Exactly my opinion on the matter.

Wipe away: It's not the best answer to something, but it's an answer to everything. This being said, I don't like the card myself too, for the reasons you stated and don't play it anymore in my SB.
For 'general bounce' aka bouncing hatebears, thorns etc I stronly advocate chain of vapor. For U, you get bounce AND a storm engine.

Krosan grip: I understand you love the card. It's our best answer to a resolved counterbalance and is able to deal with loads of other troublesome permanents like cotv, spheres, canonist etc.

However... the more I play against counterbalance decks, the more I believe our best answer to counterbalance is winning before they can play it...

They resolve counterbalance. You have 2 grips in your 60, counterbalance shuts off your cantrips. You are just hoping to get lucky and draw it in time. (note: in time isn't the moment they kill you, it's the moment they have sealed the deal, by letting them build an insane grip. A thing at which they're much better now with mental misstep. Pre-MM they would find 1-2 fow, some snares and/or dazes. Enough lands and 2 chants still win you this game, but MM made this impossible)

To advocate my views: I believe empty the warrens may best our best bet against tempo decks too... For 2 extra slots (we already have 1 MD and 1 SB empty), you load up to 3 MD empty, 1 SB wishtarget post SB.

Tempo ********: has no real way of dealing with empty the warrens.
Team america: most play 1 EE MD, but without a way to tutor for it (trinket mage), I'm willing to take my chances.

Last weekend I playtested extensively with one of my team members. He played UGB tempo *****.

His build featured:
4 fow
4 stifle
4 mental misstep
4 daze
3 spell snare

4 wasteland
4 dark confidant

Streamlined with 8 cantrips, this really is a challenge for us.

After side: he boarded 2 thoughtseize.

NOTE: I realise tempo decks are among the most difficult to play. Therefore, comparing test results against them can be really depending our your opponent's experience with the deck (next to your own talent ofc).
My friend is top 5 ranked in the Belgian eternal ranking and has been playing (and winning) tournaments with tempo decks for quite some time now, so no comments on this matter please.

I played the usual TES list (can be found in my tournament reports).
I boarded: 1 tropical island, 3 xantid swarm, 2 empty the warrens.

We played 20 games, 10 preside, 10 postside. We both were on the play 10 times.

Results:
preside: TES 4 - Tempo ***** 6
postside: TES 6 - Tempo ***** 4

Some notes:

1. Postside could have been 7-3; 8-2, but I mulliganed a lot those games and never had a really good hand.
2. Empty the warrens is a house against them. With so many copies, I can almost every game create a decent amount of goblins turn 1-2. Most of the time without really spening my entire hand, letting a turn 4-5 mini Tendrils finish him off.
3. Empty the warrens played a much bigger role in winning 6 postSB games than xantid swarm did. Empty the warrens forced my opponent to block my combo attempt much earlier. (as allowing me to reach 4-5 storm with 4 mana floating = goblins) This forced him to use his missteps on my first ritual, rather than my second or third and gave me more ‘expandable’ spells to punch through his counterwall, thereby changing our interaction not only on a tactical level, but on a strategical level too.

Thanks for making it all the way through this long post.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

That's interesting, we both came to similar conclusions, you have both Spree and Meltdown and I have Spree and Recall. Do you really think Meltdown is better to wish for than Spree or better to draw than Recall?

My sideboard is the same as my Top 4 list, -1 Seize +1 Recall. I don't think I've ever wished for Seize. Against decks that I would do that, I just grab EtW.

Anytime I've wished for Thoughseize, I was already winning.

[tride]

ETW-plan

Could you tell me what you boarded out? The idea is very interesteing now that there are many different tempo decks and few cb-decks appearing. Ponder, brainstorm, duress, silence? What else?

[Diprivan]

Could you tell me what you boarded out? The idea is very interesteing now that there are many different tempo decks and few cb-decks appearing. Ponder, brainstorm, duress, silence? What else?

I boarded 4 duress, 1 ponder, 1 infernal tutor.

My reasoning: after boarding I play the deck as a sort of Belcher deck (1/2 turn slower, but more consistent and protected). Therefore I think you shouldn't cut fast mana, as you really want 4 mana ASAP. (normally boarding 1 chrome mox is a no brainer, but I kept it in for now) This also explains why I don't board the deck into more protection spells, as even keeping in all duresses gives me 11 protection spells (4 duress, 3 xantid, 3 chant, 1 silence) against their 20 ish counterspells. Just going for the throat now (turn 1/2) with a semi non counterable engine before they establish a mana base that allow them to snare, stifle you out of the games, looks appealing to me from this view.

Duress: I cut them because against tempo decks aka "I play many conditional counters like stifle and spell snare.dec" duress is just meh. Duress has 2 functions:
1. take a counter (obviously), however they play 20ish counters. If you play a duress turn 2-3, they have >1 counter everytime, reducing its effectiveness to 0.
2. take a permanent you really don't want them to resolve, however they don't have troublesome non-creature permanents we want to get rid off proactively (counterbalance, top,....)

Xantid swarm and chant both dodge problem number 1 (number 2 is a non-issue against these decks). They only have MM en FOW to stop it and if I stick my chant their hand of 2 stifle, 2 snare just became worthless.
This creates a balance of my 7 (3 xantid, 3 chant, 1 silence) against their 8 (4 fow, 4 mm). However by boarding into the empty the warrens, dark ritual and rite of flame become a "must counter" too for them. Balancing the odds in our favor.

For example: (and this happens a lot when playing it like this)
turn 1: land, cantrip
turn 2: land, dank ritual (resolves, people wait for the big spell (adn of iggy of tutor saccing led). lotus petal, chrome mox (notice that once they let dark ritual resolve, MM becomes useless against this play), empty the warrens from hand.

You'll steal many games against MM.dec this way, besides even if they grasp your masterplan and start countering every ritual you play, you're still in great shape, because they just get overwhelmed by a plethora a must counters.

This is what I mean with changing the strategical interaction between our deck and Tempo decks.

However, I'm still trying out this sideboard strategy and I'm not sure about cutting the infernal. Maybe cutting Adn is a better idea. I know the power level of the card, but getting to 5 mana against daze, spell pierce and waste can be a real pain if they MM your dark rituals. (note: empty the warrens in a sort of way doesn't need to get to 4 mana as it has storm, as in let me reach 4 mana (most opponents will allow you to get to 4 mana, because they want to blow you out by countering your final infernal tutor or adn) and you can't stop me anymore unless you have stifle.)

PS: I never board out my brainstorms (and I think you shouldn't do it either), it remains the best blue card in the format.

[TUMBLES]

I like the ETW idea, going to play around with it.

I was also thinking that cutting Ad N might make sense for that configuration, but can never be sure until you try it, the idea of taking out Ad N feels absurd

[Diprivan]

I like the ETW idea, going to play around with it.

I was also thinking that cutting Ad N might make sense for that configuration, but can never be sure until you try it, the idea of taking out Ad N feels absurd

Thanks, I really like it till now.

On cutting Adn: During the 10 postSB games I never wanted it. My 6 wins involved 4 empty the warrens, 1 tendrils from hand after counterwar, 1 diminishing returns -> empty the warrens. Another thing to consider is the increased risk of going Adn with 4 4CC spells in your deck.
However this ofc is just a really small sample and as you said, we should test this out some more before we jump to conclusions. If you reach some interesting test results, please share them.

[tride]

What about boarding in IGG in place of Adn against Merfolk? If you get the Xantid Swarm stick you'll propably have enough time to set up IGG. And if you get a fast hand you can probably get 8-14 tokens t1-2 which is enough if they don't have Echoing Truth. I played about 15 games against Team America and Merfolk yesterday and cast Adn twice. Most of the games I won was with EtW (with normal 75 including 1 EtW md and 1 sb).
The boarding plan would look like this:
+3 Xantid Swarm
+2 EtW
+1 IGG
-1 Ad Nauseam
-2 Duress (With IGG I'd like to have more than 7 protection spells to get the Swarm on the board.)
-2 Cantrips
-1 other card.

Cutting Tutor with IGG isn't very good idea. I'll try with Burning Wish first. Too bad I have exams coming so I can't test much. I know the plan seems pretty strange and IGG might not be very good call. I just got excited of the EtW plan and it makes your Ad Nauseams seem pretty awkward.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't really think that you can rely on Xantid Swarm that much anymore in the near future; i.e. in two weeks. Mental Misstep will be everywhere, and that thing just doubles Merfolk's chances of countering Xantid Swarm. I think going for Empty The Warrens is a pretty good idea right now, though I'm not entirely sure what to cut from my current sideboard. Neither do I know what to board out for them, though I'm playing the UBRg list. Every card I'm running has proven to be worth running. I think I'm going to do some testing with some Empty The Warrens instead of Xantid Swarms or something similar.

[Dia_Bot]

I don't really think that you can rely on Xantid Swarm that much anymore in the near future; i.e. in two weeks. Mental Misstep will be everywhere, and that thing just doubles Merfolk's chances of countering Xantid Swarm. I think going for Empty The Warrens is a pretty good idea right now, though I'm not entirely sure what to cut from my current sideboard. Neither do I know what to board out for them, though I'm playing the UBRg list. Every card I'm running has proven to be worth running. I think I'm going to do some testing with some Empty The Warrens instead of Xantid Swarms or something similar.

So you would cut Xantid swarms because they can be countered? This is rediculous, xantid swarm is still by far the best protection against merfolks . Let's put it this way: would you rather have a duress/chant or a xantid swarm in your hand against merfolks?
There are many reasons why xantid swarm could be left out of your sideboard but "because people have acces to MM" isn't one of them.

[Jonathan Alexander]

No, I would cut them because Empty The Warrens will be harder to handle for them. It's pretty easy to reach four mana, with two lands or one land and a Chrome Mox / Lotus Petal you only need to resolve one single Dark Ritual to be able to cast it, and you don't really need protection in this case, so Empty The Warrens doubles as protection and win condition in a way.
This is comparable to Nimble Mongoose in Threshold decks, they're running the threats that are the hardest to disrupt.

[leegoo]

I REALLY don't think you can afford to cut Xantid Swarm. 1 mana "I win" cards vs. decks that otherwise have a fair game against you are generally hard NOT to find room for.

[lorddotm]

The only Tempo decks around these parts have Stifle. Also, it is not impossible for Merfolk to race Empty the Warrens when they get Reejery. Xantid is a beating for them though.

[Jonathan Alexander]

A resolved Xantid Swarm is basically impossible to beat for them, that's true. Also, they don't have the fastest clock of all time, so it's not too bad if you only resolve it on turn three on the play, on the draw it becomes way harder since you most likely won't be able to win via Ad Nauseam anymore plus they actually just might kill you by then, though this is pretty unlikely.
In my eyes it's important to find out whether they're more likely to deal with Empty The Warrens or with Xantid Swarm. The issue I see with Xantid Swarm is that it's basically protection that must be protected, at least by now, when they have eight hardcounters and eight softcounters. I'm definitely going to do some testing with both cards and perhaps even with a split.

Also, I don't really get your first sentence; would you like to explain? Thanks.

[lorddotm]

Thats just a comment on the LA metagame, where the EtW plan is terrible.

[Koby]

Thats just a comment on the LA metagame, where the EtW plan is terrible.

Yep, attacking for 2-3 turns isn't viable when you're dead to a slower combo deck.

[Diprivan]

So, did some more testing today against countertop.

List:
3 top
4 counterbalance

4 fow
4 mental misstep
2 counterspell

3 firespout

4 goyf
2 clique
4 lavamancer

+ the usual stp, brainstorm, etc

He boarded 2 spell pierce, 2 reb

Same principle as last testing session against UGB tempo *****.

Results:
preside: TES 4 - Countertop 6
postside: TES 7 - Countertop 3

Comments:
1. preside is a coinflip. It really depends on their hand.
2. Empty the warrens from hand destroys them. Creating 10 goblins turn 1 is very easy with this build, usually without playing a blue spell (no reb), none of few 1cc spells (which can be played in the beginning of your chain, so even if they counter it, you'll just lose 1 card.)
3. postside first 4 games results: TES 4 - Countertop 0. Opponents won't realise until it's too late that your on a etw plan and act accordingly (ie preventing you from reaching 4 mana instead of waiting for the big spell)
4. Creating 10+ goblins on the play invalidates firespout. (happened at least 2 games where he had it in hand, but couldn't cast it in time) Of his 3 postsb wins, 1 involved a crazy top, cb, mm, fow, brainstorm, 2 land hand, the other 2 involved firespouting my tokens. He did firespout my tokens 4 times postsb, however since they already attacked him down to 10ish life 1 time mini tendrils, 1 time another 6 tokens from hand finished the deal.

I don't get the point about stifle invalidating etw. Tendrils requires storm too to win the game.
I agree the etw plan is just meh against merfolk, as they have a reliable way to race it if you don't cast it turn 1.

On cutting xantids:
I don't think this is a good idea. Xantid remains our number 1 against merfolk and certainly has its merits in the tempodeck matchup.
I believe we need the protection.
I'm advocating a very agressive approach against counterbalance and tempodecks, but I do believe we should try to do this as safe as possible. If I can chant them before I resolve my empty/Adn/Iggy/returns, I chant them. Therefore, I fail to see why stifle would be more devastating to the goblins than it is towards tendrils self?
Besides:
1. If you're on the play, they can't stifle a turn 1 attempt (happens quite a lot) Don't forget even just (6-)8 goblins get the job done against them turn 1 on the play.
2. If you're on the draw (and they didn't cast ponder or top) you changed the dynamic from 'having the force' to 'having the stifle'

We just can't allow them to develop. Even if you board to 12 protection spells, you'll lose to a resolved counterbalance (countertop) or 20ish counters + wasteland + hymn/confidant card advantage (tempodecks)

[lorddotm]

Stifle is good against Empty the Warrens because you usually don't go for too much protection when playing Empty from hand. This allows them to Stifle it very easily. Typically, 1 Chant is not enough to cold them, especially since they have Mental Misstep to just ignore it.

I'm not saying that your approach is incorrect, but be aware that Stifle is still a big game against it (but I think Stifle is going to leave for a little bit while Mental Misstep is as hyped as it is right now).

[Andy_V]

I still don't understand why people are dodging Mental Misstep in any way different than Force of Will...

If it's 3Top-Counterbalance with Mental Misstep, you should already have an advantage over 4Top-Counterbalance like an Adam Prosak CTJace list (in my opinion one of the hardest pure control CT lists to beat because of MD Spell Snare), because it's stupid not to run 4of.

Without proactively stripping counterbalance (say more thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek, perhaps) it's tough to win with or without Mental Misstep. Essentially, all your opponent needs to be able to do is hold the counter or, better yet, stifle and be able to count. Dazing or piercing a Petal, Dark Rit, or Chome Mox (almost worse would be stifling the imprint on Mox...ugh) would be embarrassing when your goal is to get around an inferior counter by getting to 4, you reward the bad general decision.

A turn 1 Xantid Swarm against Counterbalance is likely going to be enough to get you to a decent storm count and 4 mana before they have access to 0,1,2,3, and 4 near the top of their library and a way to kill you. Firespout, Pyroclasm, Caltrops (yeah, I know), Moat, Propaganda, etc. all stop the ETW plan. It's interesting, because ETW is a good plan against CT, but sometimes you can just win.


If you do have 3 ETW in the board to bring in, I don't think you can run Ad Nauseam profitably anymore, due to the higher density of 4s. CT Goyf puts a decent enough clock on many times that a stifled fetch can be enough to lose.

Just my 2 cents.

[Diprivan]

Stifle is good against Empty the Warrens because you usually don't go for too much protection when playing Empty from hand. This allows them to Stifle it very easily. Typically, 1 Chant is not enough to cold them, especially since they have Mental Misstep to just ignore it.

I'm not saying that your approach is incorrect, but be aware that Stifle is still a big game against it (but I think Stifle is going to leave for a little bit while Mental Misstep is as hyped as it is right now).

I fully agree: stifle is troublesome for this approach. However, they have a 40% chance to have it in their opening 7, 50% they are on the draw => 20% chance of them having it on my T1 attempt. If they are on the play and didn't tap out, it's a liability, but it doesn't have to be devastating to your hand.

Etw MD allows us to play it reliably from hand (ie not needing burning wish and led mana (most of the time) to cast it), preserving part of our hand and allowing for another combo attempt (etw/tendrils) soon.

The fundamental change MM brings to our interaction with tempo decks, in my opinion, is that we can't 'wait and see' any longer against them.
When playing against countertop you allways feared the moment when they tapped UU en cast cb. MM forces us to play against tempodecks like we did against counterbalance: win before it lands -> win before they build a grip with that many relevant* counters, we just can't get through it.

*: MM + fow gives them 8 ways to answer our 4 chants. And even if we get to 2-3 chants, their wastelands/stifle can stop us from getting enough W mana.
PS: Them playing bob forces us to win earlier too in my opinion. When playing against UGB tempo *****, I don't think I won a single game if he sticked a bob more than 2 turns.


I still don't understand why people are dodging Mental Misstep in any way different than Force of Will...

1. If it's 3Top-Counterbalance with Mental Misstep, you should already have an advantage over 4Top-Counterbalance like an Adam Prosak CTJace list (in my opinion one of the hardest pure control CT lists to beat because of MD Spell Snare), because it's stupid not to run 4of.

2. Without proactively stripping counterbalance (say more thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek, perhaps) it's tough to win with or without Mental Misstep. Essentially, all your opponent needs to be able to do is hold the counter or, better yet, stifle and be able to count. Dazing or piercing a Petal, Dark Rit, or Chome Mox (almost worse would be stifling the imprint on Mox...ugh) would be embarrassing when your goal is to get around an inferior counter by getting to 4, you reward the bad general decision.

3. A turn 1 Xantid Swarm against Counterbalance is likely going to be enough to get you to a decent storm count and 4 mana before they have access to 0,1,2,3, and 4 near the top of their library and a way to kill you. Firespout, Pyroclasm, Caltrops (yeah, I know), Moat, Propaganda, etc. all stop the ETW plan. It's interesting, because ETW is a good plan against CT, but sometimes you can just win.


4. If you do have 3 ETW in the board to bring in, I don't think you can run Ad Nauseam profitably anymore, due to the higher density of 4s. CT Goyf puts a decent enough clock on many times that a stifled fetch can be enough to lose.

Just my 2 cents.

1. I agree not playing 4 top in a countertopdeck is a mistake. MB etw invalidates spell snare as you don't need to resolve a 2cc spell for your etw.

2. Proactively stripping counterbalance from their hand. I never liked this approach.
- they don't have balance in hand (well, not that bad for us :rolleyes:), but doesn't prevent them from topdecking it ftw.
- they have balance and brainstorm it away (faced this sequence too many times) Also note, that this play allows them to immediately have a 'good casting' cost on top even if they tap out turn 2 to play counterbalance.
- they have counterbalance and a counter (fow, MM): they just counter the discard spell and proceed to kill us.
- they have 2 counterbalances in hand and just smile a my discard spell

=> The way I see it, discard only really shines in the situation where they have 1 counterbalance in hand, 0 brainstorm, 0 fow and 0 mm. Mediocre to say the least.

Countering our spell chain is a pain, but this applies to every combo attempt we make. I understand your reasoning completely, but I don't see a better solution for this problem than going for it before they sculpt their hand.

Besides, I think we shouldn't underestimate the surprise effect of this plan. People expect every chain to end with Adn/tutor/wish into kill spell and wait accordingly with their counters hoping for the blowout.

For example, you have a MM or fow in your opening grip.
Opponent leads with underground sea, dark ritual.
Do you counter the ritual? I think most people expect this sequence will be followed by some other spells into a key spell to counter.
Ritual resolves, lotus petal, lotus petal, empty the warrens from hand (hey wait, I can't use my mm anymore)

3. I didn't like xantid against counterbalance decks. They generally only have 4 fow and 3/4 spell snare or daze as countersuite. (ie only 4 ways to stop chant/duress) Duress has the added benefit of grabbing counterbalance if you're lucky. MM doubled their answers to chant and makes xantid necessary against them.

I think you look at their balance the wrong way: they don't need to have a 0,1,2,3 on top to kill us. They just need 0 and 1 to stop us 99% of the time. Their deck is build that way, that once they untap with balance in play, they will have a 0 and 1 floating. This way you don't really have much time to develop your hand.

4. Fully agree on this one. If we get to late game and etw loses its power, we still have tutor chains/iggy loop to kill them without tapping tokens sideways.
CT goyf doesn't play stifle, I think you meant tempodecks. Stifling our fetch indeed is troublesome sometimes (but the only answer we have to this is playing without fetchlands), other times I let them stifle my first land to draw a stifle and my second turn involves creating some goblins.

[x8eikdls]

For example, you have a MM or fow in your opening grip.
Opponent leads with underground sea, dark ritual.
Do you counter the ritual? I think most people expect this sequence will be followed by some other spells into a key spell to counter.
Ritual resolves, lotus petal, lotus petal, empty the warrens from hand (hey wait, I can't use my mm anymore)


Are people really this bad? You see them lead with Underground Sea -> Dark Rit, and you DON'T Misstep the Dark Rit? Really? What's more important than that Dark Rit this turn?

[Diprivan]

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: People expect every chain to end with Adn/tutor/wish into kill spell and wait accordingly with their counters hoping for the blowout.
If they MM the first ritual effect, they face another attempt next turn and another turn 3 etc.

If I open with volcanic island, rite of flame. Do you counter the rite of flame?
If you don't, you open yourself to 8-10 goblins turn 1
If you do, your MM will not buy you much time when you try to counter every chant/duress/dark ritual/rite of flame I play.

[akabane]

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: People expect every chain to end with Adn/tutor/wish into kill spell and wait accordingly with their counters hoping for the blowout.
If they MM the first ritual effect, they face another attempt next turn and another turn 3 etc.

If I open with volcanic island, rite of flame. Do you counter the rite of flame?
If you don't, you open yourself to 8-10 goblins turn 1
If you do, your MM will not buy you much time when you try to counter every chant/duress/dark ritual/rite of flame I play.

Short answer:
"People expect every chain to end with Adn/tutor/wish into kill spell and wait accordingly with their counters hoping for the blowout."
Yeah, because MM counters adn/tutor/wish/killSpell.

Long answer:
I seriously doubt that.
Having mental misstep IS the reason why they would counter (or try to counter) almost any cc1 drop you can play.
Any decent (not pro, just decent) player knows A LITTLE which are the cards your deck plays, you don't have to know the list, just a guess if more than enough.
We do NOT have cc1 threats. Almost everything we can propose cc1 are cantrips and ramps.

Your example: I play turn1 darkrit, do you counter it GIVEN the fact that they have misstep and not any other counter? Yes you do.
Because MM becomes highly ineffective for any other threat we can throw at them (be it burning, infernal, bunch of leds, adn, tendrils, etw, igg).
And anyway, against our specific deck, using misstep to buy some tempo (albeit just 1 turn, it CAN be enough to compromise the game) is exactly the reason why they would play it against any of our cantrips/rits/chant.

[Diprivan]

You're missing the point completely. MM makes up 20% of the countersuite of tempo *****.

I suggest you read my previous posts, instead of just reading the last one and adressing things I already went through.

I'm done with this. I suggest a new sideboard strategy. Have you tested it? Try it first, post me your results and we'll talk.
I'm merely suggesting a new tech, tried it out and got some decent test results with it. 60% postsb against tt and 70% against countertop. Albeit low sample sizes may give a wrong image, this are results which suggest the etwplan may be viable.
So don't dismiss my ideas, based on a theoretic scheme.

[ninja_attack]

You're missing the point completely. MM makes up 20% of the countersuite of tempo *****.

I suggest you read my previous posts, instead of just reading the last one and adressing things I already went through.

I'm done with this. I suggest a new sideboard strategy. Have you tested it? Try it first, post me your results and we'll talk.
I'm merely suggesting a new tech, tried it out and got some decent test results with it. 60% postsb against tt and 70% against countertop. Albeit low sample sizes may give a wrong image, this are results which suggest the etwplan may be viable.
So don't dismiss my ideas, based on a theoretic scheme.

Thank you for wanting to advance some discussion in the thread.

On Etw: I think we need to evolve in order to combat the hype and the return of counterbalance, and i think this is an excellent way to start. I would just like to get an exact way your board looks, and how you board against tempo and counterbalance.

I also think that the reactive answers (pryoblast) to counterbalance are a necessary evil.
Another way i see playing against tempo is using them to jack your storm count. It has happened numerous times, and with empty the warrens, it could be even better.

[Tivon]

You don't have to hit the first ritual... It would make more sense to hit whatever protection that they try to throw at you, or counter the second ritual. If the only protection in their hand is MM, then yeah, they should probably hit the first ritual (they also kept a shitty hand against storm IMO). If they have other counters as well, it is better to save the MM for stuff like brainstorm, ponder and protection spells, and hit the other key spells after their hands are empty.

If your opponent doesn't know that you are running 4x ETW post board, you are probably going to need at least 1 other spell at 1 cmc in order to go off in their eyes. They effectively negate both pieces of acceleration if they can keep you from going off after countering the second.

As far as I'm concerned, it is quite possibly the right play to not counter the ritual - especially if they just lead with Underground sea-> ritual


Are people really this bad? You see them lead with Underground Sea -> Dark Rit, and you DON'T Misstep the Dark Rit? Really? What's more important than that Dark Rit this turn?
the second dark ritual?

[x8eikdls]

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Duress -> Business

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal -> Moxes/LED -> EtW

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal/Moxes x2 -> Ad Nauseam

If your only disruption is the MM, you counter the first Dark Ritual. The only reason not to is because you're greedy and hoping they plan to go Dark Rit -> Dark Rit -> Ad Nauseam, or Dark Rit -> Petal -> Rite of Flame -> Ad Nauseam.

If you counter the first Dark Rit, you most likely shut them down for that turn, and possibly the next few turns if they needed that Ritual to resolve. You buy yourself a land drop, which gives you access to Brainstorm/Pierce/Daze/etcetcetc.

[stasis]

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Duress -> Business

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal -> Moxes/LED -> EtW

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal/Moxes x2 -> Ad Nauseam

If your only disruption is the MM, you counter the first Dark Ritual. The only reason not to is because you're greedy and hoping they plan to go Dark Rit -> Dark Rit -> Ad Nauseam, or Dark Rit -> Petal -> Rite of Flame -> Ad Nauseam.

If you counter the first Dark Rit, you most likely shut them down for that turn, and possibly the next few turns if they needed that Ritual to resolve. You buy yourself a land drop, which gives you access to Brainstorm/Pierce/Daze/etcetcetc.

+1 i agree, MM is only there to buy time until you get mana and able to counter with other hard counters.

with out our acceleration it feel like ages before we can go off

[stasis]

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Duress -> Business

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal -> Moxes/LED -> EtW

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal/Moxes x2 -> Ad Nauseam

If your only disruption is the MM, you counter the first Dark Ritual. The only reason not to is because you're greedy and hoping they plan to go Dark Rit -> Dark Rit -> Ad Nauseam, or Dark Rit -> Petal -> Rite of Flame -> Ad Nauseam.

If you counter the first Dark Rit, you most likely shut them down for that turn, and possibly the next few turns if they needed that Ritual to resolve. You buy yourself a land drop, which gives you access to Brainstorm/Pierce/Daze/etcetcetc.

+1 i agree, MM is only there to buy time until they get mana and able to counter with other hard counters.

with out our acceleration it feel like ages before we can go off

[akabane]

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Duress -> Business

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal -> Moxes/LED -> EtW

Underground Sea -> Dark Ritual -> Lotus Petal/Moxes x2 -> Ad Nauseam

If your only disruption is the MM, you counter the first Dark Ritual. The only reason not to is because you're greedy and hoping they plan to go Dark Rit -> Dark Rit -> Ad Nauseam, or Dark Rit -> Petal -> Rite of Flame -> Ad Nauseam.

If you counter the first Dark Rit, you most likely shut them down for that turn, and possibly the next few turns if they needed that Ritual to resolve. You buy yourself a land drop, which gives you access to Brainstorm/Pierce/Daze/etcetcetc.

Exactly :)
Against T1 darkrit if you have MM as only counter there is no reason not to stop it.
Different thing is if everything happens on t2 and maybe you have both MM and fow, where you can choose NOT to counter the first rit as it could be a good bait for your counters and it follows with duress (in which case you should wait to MM the duress/orim given a fow in hand, otherwise it'll destroy your handcounters and go off t3) - but then we're talking about completely different situations.

Anyway going back to the multiple ETW board, I'm liking it- for now I'm going with 2x ETW main and 1sb to wish for postboard, further testing will see if MD 3x postboard will be needed.

[Diprivan]

Agreed.

I should have been more cleare with my example. If your only counter is MM, you use it ofc. I was speaking more generally i.e. "a deck with counters" aka any combination of counters in their opening 7.

I'm glad some people are testing the etw plan atm. Due to examens I don't have much time right now, but I'm interested in your findings. I suggest you figure out your own boarding strategy, however I'm willing to give mine if you are really doubting some choices. Please share your findings with us, that way we can see whether this idea holds some potential value.

[r3dd09]

So I finally got a spark going on amongst my community to where we are going to have weekly legacy. * probably just 6-8 people each week till it gets noticed*

I will start keeping reports as I have tes built, but haven't played anything outside of proxied decks of dredge and junk. Hopefully i can eventually give my input on countertop and other decks as i know one person will be playing dreadtop.

Have we come to conclusion on what the sb should be?

[Diprivan]

So I finally got a spark going on amongst my community to where we are going to have weekly legacy. * probably just 6-8 people each week till it gets noticed*

I will start keeping reports as I have tes built, but haven't played anything outside of proxied decks of dredge and junk. Hopefully i can eventually give my input on countertop and other decks as i know one person will be playing dreadtop.

Have we come to conclusion on what the sb should be?

No :confused:

And I believe we just CAN'T till the new metagame starts to show.

You can play the standard SB for now, it has proven its value.
For now, I'm testing the etw plan

1 TOA
1 D returns
1 iggy
3 etw
1 grapeshot
1 tropical island
3 xantid swarm
1 meltdown
1 deathmark
2 chain of vapor

I like it for the moment. More testing is necessary however.
Though with such a small metagame, you should adjust accordingly: i.e. if 2 of them play MUD more artifact hate/bounce is necessary etc

[x8eikdls]

I'd recommend varying your bounce spells again. I've been running 3 Chain of Vapor to deal with hate bears and random things like Thorns/Pillar/etc, but once New Phyrexia is legal I'll be running the 1-1-1 split of Chain / Echoing Truth / Wipe Away. Or possibly even 2 Echoing Truth and 1 Wipe Away. The hype around Mental Misstep is huge, and I'd expect a lot of baddies running aggro decks to side them vs TES along with Hate bears and such. No need to lose to Misstep when you try to bounce Canonist with a Chain of Vapor when it can just be an Echoing Truth instead. Just something to take note of.

[Diprivan]

I'd recommend varying your bounce spells again. I've been running 3 Chain of Vapor to deal with hate bears and random things like Thorns/Pillar/etc, but once New Phyrexia is legal I'll be running the 1-1-1 split of Chain / Echoing Truth / Wipe Away. Or possibly even 2 Echoing Truth and 1 Wipe Away. The hype around Mental Misstep is huge, and I'd expect a lot of baddies running aggro decks to side them vs TES along with Hate bears and such. No need to lose to Misstep when you try to bounce Canonist with a Chain of Vapor when it can just be an Echoing Truth instead. Just something to take note of.

Seems logical, but is this really true?

They don't have MM => chain >>> truth
They have MM:
I: chain, MM, bummer
You: truth, proceed to combo, dark ritual, MM, bummer.

Truth has the advantage that when you bounced canonist, you can chant them (and blank their MM), but this advantage doesn't apply to teeg, where you can chant them no matter what.
I understand your reasoning and will test it out, though I'm still very attached to my chains.

[r3dd09]

one thing is that i'm not running xantid :/ if i do, i'd have to invest in different fetches and the Trop.

I will see how my meta is before i invest, but i do plan on getting a playset of each dual and fetch kinda soon. so this might get the ball rolling.

[lorddotm]

one thing is that i'm not running xantid :/ if i do, i'd have to invest in different fetches and the Trop.

I will see how my meta is before i invest, but i do plan on getting a playset of each dual and fetch kinda soon. so this might get the ball rolling.

Diprivan is wrong. You only need the normal main deck to run Xantids, no Tropical needed.

Also, Echoing Truth is just better than Chain of Vapour. When you have Chain in your hand and they play Chalice at one, you will want to shoot yourself. Or if they have two Meddling Mages or something weird like that, Echoing Truth has been awesome for me, and in TES I have never wanted anything else.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Diprivan is wrong. You only need the normal main deck to run Xantids, no Tropical needed.

Also, Echoing Truth is just better than Chain of Vapour. When you have Chain in your hand and they play Chalice at one, you will want to shoot yourself. Or if they have two Meddling Mages or something weird like that, Echoing Truth has been awesome for me, and in TES I have never wanted anything else.

The only time I ever wanted anything else was when Zoo Pyroblasted my Echoing Truth and beat me down with hatebears. I switched to Wipe Away, and then promptly lost to Null Rod + Wasteland when I was unable to hit three mana. I agree that Truth is definitely better after that experience.

[Diprivan]

Tropical isn't there to cast xantid. It's there against wasteland. I board it in against landdestruction.dec and really like the 14th land there. Since it's convenient to not have to blow a petal on it, it being green does help cast xantid swarm in those matchups, where the chance of you having a 5c land in play are not that super.

On truth vs chain: both have their merits. Chain is vulnerable to MM and cotv, but truth has it's own weaknesses: 2 mana, spell snare, daze/pierce more relevant against it, 1 damage more of Adn, etc.
But erh, if they play cotv on 1 and I don't have burning wish, well yeah, I'll lose that one. But if they play thorn/golem/sphere and I only have 2 lands, I'll laugh and you'll die with truth in your hand.

It's like your right hand and a prostitute:
both serve the same purpose, one is cheaper though less able to pull it off everytime, the other is more expensive, but gets the job done almost everytime.

[r3dd09]

i just imagine my meta being inexpensive decks in the beginning, i'm going to be loaning out dredge and affinity, there will probably be 2x gobos, and most likely another dredge plus the dreadtop. I should be able to do good against everything so far, i played against a junk player and still rocked him when he's wastelanding me.

expect weekly updates on my deck/ matchups

[Diprivan]

Thanks in advance for the input.

Dredge, affinity and goblins all are excellent matchups, so with normal SB hate they should be a walk in the park. But beware, once they'll know you win the small tournament everytime, you'll face a SB of 15 anti combo cards and you'll need to adapt.

[lorddotm]

Tropical isn't there to cast xantid. It's there against wasteland. I board it in against landdestruction.dec and really like the 14th land there. Since it's convenient to not have to blow a petal on it, it being green does help cast xantid swarm in those matchups, where the chance of you having a 5c land in play are not that super.


I've only lost to being Wasted out once. That was when they drew three Wastelands, and they were blue. I don't expect that to happen too often. However, if you are concerned about Wasteland and want another land to help, just use another City of Brass, it produces every colour.


On truth vs chain: both have their merits. Chain is vulnerable to MM and cotv, but truth has it's own weaknesses: 2 mana, spell snare, daze/pierce more relevant against it, 1 damage more of Adn, etc.
But erh, if they play cotv on 1 and I don't have burning wish, well yeah, I'll lose that one. But if they play thorn/golem/sphere and I only have 2 lands, I'll laugh and you'll die with truth in your hand.


The thing is, you're going to lose a lot more due to Chain being shitty than Echoing Truth being an issue. Maybe you live in a world where people never have two hate cards out, but I sure do. I don't play against Sphere effects too often, they are almost always too slow to affect us too, or they are coming from a deck I expect it to come from, and I will be playing out my Artifact mana. I used to use Chain, and then I realized that it was just needed when I was playing badly, and when I was being a good Magic player, Echoing Truth was always better.

Also, with the whole Burning Wish being an out, that is two whole turns you are giving up to answer one spell. I get that we rely on Burning Wish to get us out of a lot of things, but it is slow, and it takes away a business spell.



both serve the same purpose, one is cheaper though less able to pull it off everytime, the other is more expensive, but gets the job done almost everytime.

That is a horrible analogy. If you can't finish when you beat it go to a doctor, watch less fucked up porn, or beat it less.

[Diprivan]

I've only lost to being Wasted out once. That was when they drew three Wastelands, and they were blue. I don't expect that to happen too often. However, if you are concerned about Wasteland and want another land to help, just use another City of Brass, it produces every colour.



The thing is, you're going to lose a lot more due to Chain being shitty than Echoing Truth being an issue. Maybe you live in a world where people never have two hate cards out, but I sure do. I don't play against Sphere effects too often, they are almost always too slow to affect us too, or they are coming from a deck I expect it to come from, and I will be playing out my Artifact mana. I used to use Chain, and then I realized that it was just needed when I was playing badly, and when I was being a good Magic player, Echoing Truth was always better.

Also, with the whole Burning Wish being an out, that is two whole turns you are giving up to answer one spell. I get that we rely on Burning Wish to get us out of a lot of things, but it is slow, and it takes away a business spell.



That is a horrible analogy. If you can't finish when you beat it go to a doctor, watch less fucked up porn, or beat it less.

The only decks I face with cotv also play sphere/golem/thorn (ie MUD), so I kinda like the chains there. Though if everybody and his cousin starts playing MM or cotv 'cause OMFG it stops MM!!!!!1!!!1 COMBO", I'll switch to truth.

Relax, just joking. We're discussing 2 slots in a SB of a magic deck and both cards are - let's face it - not that different.

[lorddotm]

Relax, just joking. We're discussing 2 slots in a SB of a magic deck and both cards are - let's face it - not that different.

I'm celebrating Bob Marley's life, I'm very relaxed.

I was just offering sound medical advice.

Also, Distress and Thoughtseize aren't too different, but one is clearly better. The same is with Echoing Truth and Chain (although if we are going by mana cost, it would be reversed).

[Diprivan]

I'm celebrating Bob Marley's life, I'm very relaxed.

I was just offering sound medical advice.

Also, Distress and Thoughtseize aren't too different, but one is clearly better. The same is with Echoing Truth and Chain (although if we are going by mana cost, it would be reversed).

As long as we celebrate Bob Marley, we make this world a better place.

[TUMBLES]

i just imagine my meta being inexpensive decks in the beginning, i'm going to be loaning out dredge and affinity, there will probably be 2x gobos, and most likely another dredge plus the dreadtop. I should be able to do good against everything so far, i played against a junk player and still rocked him when he's wastelanding me.

expect weekly updates on my deck/ matchups


I don't know why I find it funny that you're loaning out decks like goblins and affinity to jumpstart legacy and then playing TES, but I do :D

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have finally arrived at a TES list that I like. I have been testing this list for a while and this is the only one I have been satisfied with since the MT banning. Here is what I have been playing:

4x Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
2x Personal Tutor
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Swarm
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Ad Nauseam

4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Mire
1x Tarn
1x Strand

SB

2x Wipe Away
2x Shattering Spree
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Swarm
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize
2x Deathmark
1x D Returns
1x IGG
1x EtW
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils

The Personal Tutors have been nuts. However, I am still unsure about the EtW. The fact that I can fetch it so easily is really great but ... I still feel like it should be AdN. I took this deck to my local tournament tonight and scrubbed out after going 2-2. I beat CBThopter and Spiral Tide and lost twice to 4c CB. This list is ... amazing against Merfolk but TES is still just so weak against CB, especially when you have to mull and keep sub-par hands. I just kept asking myself "why out of all nights, there is not a single Merfolk player in the room, am I not playing DDFT?" The SB could certainly be modded a little bit but ... DD is just so much better against CB, but Merfolk still gives it problems. So thats the dilemma. However, I encourage people to test this list before theorizing about it, it is a pure beast and Personal Tutor is no joke in this deck.

EDIT: Forgot manabase.

[kicks_422]

I like Personal Tutor, but back when Mystical wasn't banned, I remember that it was Dark Ritual that I tutored for the most, by far.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yes. However, it does find Rite of Flame and action spells so it beats the hell out of the 2-3 Preordains that I had been testing for a little. It seems janky, but running 2 is just perfect. Adds a whole new level of consistency to a deck that I usually sleeve up and take apart after 30 mins and put DDFT back together. This list has been sleeved for 4 days or so now.

[lorddotm]

Yes. However, it does find Rite of Flame and action spells so it beats the hell out of the 2-3 Preordains that I had been testing for a little. It seems janky, but running 2 is just perfect. Adds a whole new level of consistency to a deck that I usually sleeve up and take apart after 30 mins and put DDFT back together. This list has been sleeved for 4 days or so now.


Looks like your list is a card short.

Also, Xantid main is an interesting choice.

Am I the only one that has a winning record against CB in tournaments?

[r3dd09]

I don't know why I find it funny that you're loaning out decks like goblins and affinity to jumpstart legacy and then playing TES, but I do :D

Dredge and affinity is what I'm loaning out,

I'm loaning those two out because that's what I have complete and one being straight forward to play and the other being a more skill intensive deck( dredge).

Plus, I'd rather not loan out a deck to people I don't know that has wastelands, forces and other stuff in it.

I've only started to purchase legacy cards a month ago so my pool isn't too amazing :p

My priority was to finish tes, and that's all that matters ;)

-ps, I'm glad the decks I'm loaning out don't have their sideboards ready yet. Lol

[stasis]

Dredge and affinity is what I'm loaning out,

I'm loaning those two out because that's what I have complete and one being straight forward to play and the other being a more skill intensive deck( dredge).

Plus, I'd rather not loan out a deck to people I don't know that has wastelands, forces and other stuff in it.

I've only started to purchase legacy cards a month ago so my pool isn't too amazing :p

My priority was to finish tes, and that's all that matters ;)

-ps, I'm glad the decks I'm loaning out don't have their sideboards ready yet. Lol

His point was that you borrow them decks that have subpar chance to win versus you in a situasion where you want to build a legacy envirement

[Diprivan]

Looks like your list is a card short.

Also, Xantid main is an interesting choice.

Am I the only one that has a winning record against CB in tournaments?

Nope, me too. I'd play countertop all day long: epic, skill-intensive matches, where you can show you know your deck.

Xantid main is an interesting option indeed, though I prefer chants at first sight. I'll test Pulp's list this weekend.

[r3dd09]

His point was that you borrow them decks that have subpar chance to win versus you in a situasion where you want to build a legacy envirement

I knew that's what he meant, I have about 8 proxied decks so I let them play to see what kind of deck they want, also I'm buying cards and selling them for less than what I bought them for, among other things. This is how I've tried to spark an interest among my community, must be working ;)

But I do get your point.

Why isn't grim tutor played in this deck? Can I some insight on this cut?

[Diprivan]

Why isn't grim tutor played in this deck? Can I some insight on this cut?

Because by splashing R for burning wish we don't need additional business.
Some UB Ant list play grim, because they otherwise have an anemic 4 infernal tutor, 1-2 adn as business.

Burning wish does everything grim does and more.

[lorddotm]

Why isn't grim tutor played in this deck? Can I some insight on this cut?

It's a fucking terrible card. Burning Wish is just better.

[r3dd09]

Burning wish restricts you to sorcery. But it makes sense, Leaviating putting answers in the main when you can fetch for them in the board.

[lorddotm]

Burning wish restricts you to sorcery. But it makes sense, Leaviating putting answers in the main when you can fetch for them in the board.

Very few times is getting Emtpy, Diminishing, or Iggy not enough. Also, doesn't cost 3 life.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I am not sure if I can describe this so people will believe it. But those who have seen it firsthand, are usually amazed. I am like a negative rabbits foot and have some of the worst luck in card games u can imagine. This is the main reason I have trouble with CB .... my opening hands usually suck or I keep cantripping into more cantrips and rarely ever have what i need. After reading Cook's reports I am amazed at the kinds of hands he opens, I don't get those. This is why I play DD because Top says, fuck u deck ... I will find what is necessary. Now I am sure no one will believe this but I like to say it anyway because all my buddies at the cardshop who read this site know what I'm talking about. That aside, I have lost to Cb with DDFT ... maybe twice out of about the last 12 or so times I played and both times were to 1-2 outers ripped off the Also, people in my met top.

Onto the Xantids, I don't advocate playing them main, just something I am trying out in my meta to see how they are. Clearly they are weaker against CB but ... usually there isn't a lot, last week was a total anomoly. But I am not sure if I would want blasts or Wipe Away as of yet. I am definitely going to swap the EtW main for the second AdN though. I have really liked having 2. Also, people in my meta always run some combination of EE and Firespouts main so ... it loses a lot of its effectiveness. And people talking about the EtW plan, it really sucks. I tested it in the past and the deck turns into pseudo-belcher, I didn't like it at all and found it to be quite ineffective.

EDIT: Grim Tutor is terrible, in TES and those awful Lax ANT lists.

EDIT 2: @lorddotm: Just checked, I am pretty sure I am not missing a card in the list but I am running 14 lands.

[lorddotm]

EDIT 2: @lorddotm: Just checked, I am pretty sure I am not missing a card in the list but I am running 14 lands.

Understandable. I was probably tired or something.

[r3dd09]

With the average sideboard, what do we sideboard in and out for each matchup?

[Whippoorwill]

With the average sideboard, what do we sideboard in and out for each matchup?

2nd post in the thread.

[lorddotm]

Seems like every few pages we have to remind people that there is a lot of literature about this deck. Bryant has written a fantastic primer, I have written a primer, there are countless tournament reports, those will answer everything in a much more satisfying way than anything else. If you have further questions, feel free to quote a certain instance that confuses you, and we will be more than happy to help.

TLDR: Too fuckin' bad. Read the it.

It would be nice if we could get a password which we would hide in one of the reading pieces so that you could post in the thread.


Back on topic:

Been trying the Empty the Warrens plan, haven't quite decided if I like it or not, it is very high variance.

[r3dd09]

Seems like every few pages we have to remind people that there is a lot of literature about this deck. Bryant has written a fantastic primer, I have written a primer, there are countless tournament reports, those will answer everything in a much more satisfying way than anything else. If you have further questions, feel free to quote a certain instance that confuses you, and we will be more than happy to help.

TLDR: Too fuckin' bad. Read the it.

It would be nice if we could get a password which we would hide in one of the reading pieces so that you could post in the thread.


Back on topic:

Been trying the Empty the Warrens plan, haven't quite decided if I like it or not, it is very high variance.
Edit: I've had good luck with etw. What about it is giving you trouble? /edit

I have read a lot the the thread off and on, I realize that Bryant has an outstading primer and I don't know how frequently it's updated as I know he is in college.

I'm just trying to get my crap together to prepare myself for the first legacy tournament in my area, but I do understand your point on l2r.

Playing a different competitive game besides magic, I realize people want straight up answers and don't want to read/practice, tes being a deck that scrubs try to pick up to instant win, but try don't realize how much you need to test the deck.

This is very similar to my other game that I use to play, people would try to pick up my character because he's basically an instant kill through combos, but they want instant results when it's practice oriented.

Yo, lord. Is your primer linked on the first page? Mobile browser is being difficult, if it isn't on the first page, could you kindly link it to me, or anyone for that matter.


Also, is anyone going to providence to rep tes?

[lorddotm]

Edit: I've had good luck with etw. What about it is giving you trouble? /edit

I have read a lot the the thread off and on, I realize that Bryant has an outstading primer and I don't know how frequently it's updated as I know he is in college.

I'm just trying to get my crap together to prepare myself for the first legacy tournament in my area, but I do understand your point on l2r.

Playing a different competitive game besides magic, I realize people want straight up answers and don't want to read/practice, tes being a deck that scrubs try to pick up to instant win, but try don't realize how much you need to test the deck.

This is very similar to my other game that I use to play, people would try to pick up my character because he's basically an instant kill through combos, but they want instant results when it's practice oriented.

Yo, lord. Is your primer linked on the first page? Mobile browser is being difficult, if it isn't on the first page, could you kindly link it to me, or anyone for that matter.


Also, is anyone going to providence to rep tes?

The problem with the 4 Empty plan is that you have to have one in your opening hand to have it be effective. High variance.


The opening post is relevant enough that you could've acquired your information from that. My primer is on the opening post, there is a whole secti on of reading material on there, if you want to win with TES, reading all of that shit will be very helpful. Also, tournament reports are fantastic.

Providence is on the other side of the cunt, so I don't think I will be visiting. Plus, I wanted someone else to have the chance to win.

[r3dd09]

Are you talking about running 4 etw?

Yeah, I plan on reading a Lot of what's linked on the op. I work 12 hour graveyard shifts. All I do I read articles on magic and trade online.

I will take notes on Tuesday of my matches. I don't see me having any issues taking first unless the dreadtop player enters.

[lorddotm]

Are you talking about running 4 etw?

Yeah, I plan on reading a Lot of what's linked on the op. I work 12 hour graveyard shifts. All I do I read articles on magic and trade online.

I will take notes on Tuesday of my matches. I don't see me having any issues taking first unless the dreadtop player enters.

Earlier on in the thread (aka last page) people we talking about 4 Empty against Tempo.

Honestly, people over complicate this deck by not reading all this material. I am one of the least, we will say sober, people that plays Legacy in LA, and I still manage to win some.

[Koby]

Honestly, people over complicate this deck by not reading all this material. I am one of the least, we will say sober, people that plays Legacy in LA, and I still manage to win some.

Team Hookers n' Blow reppin'

[r3dd09]

Earlier on in the thread (aka last page) people we talking about 4 Empty against Tempo.

Honestly, people over complicate this deck by not reading all this material. I am one of the least, we will say sober, people that plays Legacy in LA, and I still manage to win some.

I don't feel like 4 etw is the answer to tempo

Yet again comparing to the last game I played, there was a player that was just like you lord. Comical, must be the combo players among games.

I feel like my meta will be budget with few good pilots due to my state never really having a legacy scene, hate to scare them away when I play the deck. Combo usually does that to people haha.

[Diprivan]

The problem with the 4 Empty plan is that you have to have one in your opening hand to have it be effective. High variance.

This.

I think this is the major flaw in the etw plan. Though my testing results with it, remain impressive:

Tested against Ubw dreadstill:
preboard: TES 4 - dreadstill 6
postboard: TES 7 - dreadstill 2 (he got furious and didn't want to play the last game. Said something bout me being too lucky with "having my 1 etw everytime" :cool:)

note: dreadstill has no answer to etw, except naturally drawing their 1 EE (fetching it with trinket is too slow)

Tested against merfolk: (4 fow, 4 mm, 4 daze, 4 catcher)
preboard: TES 3 - merfolk 7
posboard:
xantids, no etw plan: TES 6 - merfolk 4
xantids + etw plan: TES 8 - merfolk 2

I didn't expect the etw plan to work that well against folk, because they can race it if you can't go for it turn 1 or turn 2 on the play. However, if you manage turn 1-2 etw 10+ goblins, you just win (they only have 0-2 echoing truth as an out)

To those who lose to countertop everytime:
etw is golden in this matchup. You win before balance lands and even if it lands, it's not that hard to reach 4-5 storm en playing empty through balancelock.

[1maarten1]

Hi! I would like to build TES, but unfortunately i dont have the budget to afford the duallands at the moment. What would you guys suggest to replace them with? 10 rainbow lands and 3 Simian spirit guides? I can always try to borrow some duals, but I cant rely on that ofcourse.

Thanks, Maarten

[Whippoorwill]

Hi! I would like to build TES, but unfortunately i dont have the budget to afford the duallands at the moment. What would you guys suggest to replace them with? 10 rainbow lands and 3 Simian spirit guides? I can always try to borrow some duals, but I cant rely on that ofcourse.

Thanks, Maarten

Simian Spirit Guide would be one of the worst things to replace them with since you run Ad Nauseum. I think Shocklands might be the next best option if you're still running fetchlands. A split of Darkslick Shores and Blackcleave Cliffs might be workable if you don't have the fetches either. Either way, its still not going to be as solid as the optimized manabase in the standard list.

[Diprivan]

Hi! I would like to build TES, but unfortunately i dont have the budget to afford the duallands at the moment. What would you guys suggest to replace them with? 10 rainbow lands and 3 Simian spirit guides? I can always try to borrow some duals, but I cant rely on that ofcourse.

Thanks, Maarten

Spirit guides left the list with the printing of Adn. (Though I'm testing some right now with the etw plan. Living on the edge :eek:)

Like Whippoorwill said. Old TES lists ran only 10 lands, including 2 forbidden orchard/undiscovered paradise/tarnished citadel, spirit guides, but that deck really was a diffent animal. (flashbacks of "plunge into darkness, entwine, resolves?" -> opponent: :eyebrow:)
The current incarnation of the deck really wants his duals though, so I still suggest you try to get hold of at least 1 sea/1 volcanic.

PS: Judging by your name, are you Belgian/Dutch? PM me, I have enough spare duals to borrow if you attend the same tournaments as I do.

[1maarten1]

Spirit guides left the list with the printing of Adn. (Though I'm testing some right now with the etw plan. Living on the edge :eek:)

Like Whippoorwill said. Old TES lists ran only 10 lands, including 2 forbidden orchard/undiscovered paradise/tarnished citadel, spirit guides, but that deck really was a diffent animal. (flashbacks of "plunge into darkness, entwine, resolves?" opponent: :eyebrow:)
The current incarnation of the deck, really wants his duals though, so I still suggest you try to get hold of at least 1 sea/1 volcanic.

PS: Judging by your name, are you Belgian/Dutch? PM me, I have enough spare duals to borrow if you attend the same tournaments as I do.

Thanks for the replies! Im going to try to get a hold on 1 sea and 1 volc as soon as my paycheck arrives :P Ill try it like this:
4 city
4 mine
1 sea
1 volc
3 fetch (2 misty, 1 tarn or smthn)
I think ill just play 4 silence instead of the 3-1 split because its way cheaper :P, once possible I will get chants ofc since those are better.

Yeah im Dutch ;)! But I rarely go to tournaments in the south :P I usually near Rotterdam/Utrecht/Amsterdam. Anyway thanks for the offer!

[lorddotm]

Thanks for the replies! Im going to try to get a hold on 1 sea and 1 volc as soon as my paycheck arrives :P Ill try it like this:
4 city
4 mine
1 sea
1 volc
3 fetch (2 misty, 1 tarn or smthn)
I think ill just play 4 silence instead of the 3-1 split because its way cheaper :P, once possible I will get chants ofc since those are better.

Yeah im Dutch ;)! But I rarely go to tournaments in the south :P I usually near Rotterdam/Utrecht/Amsterdam. Anyway thanks for the offer!

Just realize it won't be as good as having the extra fetch and dual. Way to realize that the deck is dependent on duals though, most people build shitty mana bases with this deck, and then complain.

With the Silence split, not a huge deal, but you should correct it sometime. Get the last Sea first though.

[r3dd09]

If you're a smart trader, you can get nm duals at the price before the scg buylist screwed things up.

Got my nm seas for 85 when they were "120"

[Tammit67]

Played in a GPT with TES (4 swarm, seize, grip in flex), ended 3-3. Beat NOBant, Deedstill, lost to folk, beat AnT, lost to folk again (Ad naus fizzle from 16 game 2, and stone cold nuts game 3) and lost to Lands to put me out of contention in the last round.

Against lands g1, I mulled to five and had to tendrils around zuran orb putting him at 40, without beginning the turn with anything in play. G2, he t1's Cannonist, e tutors for chalice @2 and wins from there. G3, mull again to 5, can't beat cannonist, then chalice @1 and EE @0, then mindbreak trap. Michael Caffrey brought in 12 cards. I need a better plan than E truth getting there. From what I gather he brought in:
1 Arcane Lab
3 Mindbreak trap
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Null rod


Normally I'd just shrug it off as being a crazy guy with a vendetta, but he is my friend whom I travel to tournaments with, and usually does well enough that I can expect to play against him in the course of a smaller tournament of ~30 people. Any help?

[TUMBLES]

Bring in your bounce, beat him before he can do anything, etc. Meltdown in the board could act as a helpful wish target if he ends up with multiple artifacts, you could run Hurkyl's, other bounce and knowing how to play the deck should easily take care of the rest.

It's possible you just got unlucky (double mull to 5...) or need to practice more. TES shouldn't be losing to lands.

[Bryant Cook]

Alright guys, I should be able to post a bit more from now on.

I've read through the last few pages of the thread, a lot of your questions can be answered by my opening post. Try reading it.

I've seen the excuse that I don't update it a lot. Believe it or not, the deck hasn't changed much or hasn't needed to change within the last few months. It's a fairly solid, set-in-stone, deck.

Regardless, expect to see me around a bit more telling you to just read the opening post.

[Tammit67]

Bring in your bounce, beat him before he can do anything, etc. Meltdown in the board could act as a helpful wish target if he ends up with multiple artifacts, you could run Hurkyl's, other bounce and knowing how to play the deck should easily take care of the rest.

It's possible you just got unlucky (double mull to 5...) or need to practice more. TES shouldn't be losing to lands.

I beat him game one, that isn't my issue. My issue is when he brings in 12 cards to supplement his wasteland plan, each of which is tuturable with his 4 enlightened tutors. I will never have the mana in my mainphase to cast Meltdown. My bounce is E truth, which is awkward when he has port and wastelock, and I really feel i'd need chain of vapor.

I agree I should not be losing to lands, but I can only mulligan so aggressively for a quick hand before I have to accept something.

@Bryant: This deck is still really solid, I am just hoping for some insight against what to do against a deck with 4 avenues of attack against this gameplan.

[LostButSeeking]

@Bryant: This deck is still really solid, I am just hoping for some insight against what to do against a deck with 4 avenues of attack against this gameplan.

One of the hazards of playing combo is that people HATE losing to combo a LOT and will sometimes oversideboard against us, just so they don't lose to combo. We had one guy at a card shop who played merfolk, and because the metagame was small (~8 people) and no one had tarmogoyfs so no one had zoo, would have 11 sideboard slots for combo. 11. In Merfolk. He hated me out pretty effectively. In the long run, I think this is balanced out by the people and decks who completely give up the combo matchup (like enchantress), but it can be really frustrating on an individual basis.

[Diprivan]

My bounce is E truth, which is awkward when he has port and wastelock, and I really feel i'd need chain of vapor.

*maniacal laughter* Told you chain wins games. :tongue: Except when you play in a metagame where everyone thinks it's 2005 and casts cotv, I believe chain is the overall better card. Truth being 2 mana is really really relevant for this deck against taxing counters or wasteland.dec

He only has 3 cards you really want to get rid of before comboing: 1 canonist, 1 lab, 1 null rod. Important, as it doesn't really force you to go for the throat turn 1 (though if it's possible, you guess you know how to count to 10 :wink:)
You just keep your hand filled, lay down some 0cc. (a blue imprinted chrome mox works wonders here) Build a hand, capable of:
land, chain of vapor eot
he: waste
you: draw, grip of 7, land, protection spell, ritual ritual led, whatever, iggy/adn, kill you.

I understand your frustration of losing to lands, but even a 95-5 matchup means, you'll lose 5 out of 100 games. Last tournament I lost to goblins due to 2 Adn reveals from 18 and 16 killing me, shit happens :cry:

[JJ_JKidd]

Just realize it won't be as good as having the extra fetch and dual. Way to realize that the deck is dependent on duals though, most people build shitty mana bases with this deck, and then complain.

With the Silence split, not a huge deal, but you should correct it sometime. Get the last Sea first though.

Before I read your article, I was really really pissed of with TES lacking basics. Now ive made a list incorporating TES-Wish and AdN mana base before I read your article which is also in your decklist in the article-ANT 2.0. Now, instead of Preordain, ive decided to go with Gitaxian because its like a pseudo discard in the sense that you can see if an opponent has counters and a cantrip on its own. In recent testing I like its synergy with Ponder I have to say.

Great article btw.

[AriLax]

Bryant, do you have a plan against these new 16 counterspell Landstill decks? I thought I did with ANT, but apparently somewhere between the 13th and 16th hard counter things start to not look so good going long.

If your response is don't get into the draw bracket, that's acceptable.

[ns2973]

Bryant, do you have a plan against these new 16 counterspell Landstill decks? I thought I did with ANT, but apparently somewhere between the 13th and 16th hard counter things start to not look so good going long.

If your response is don't get into the draw bracket, that's acceptable.

I'd also be interested in some ideas, even running 4 swarms in my board, it's still like running into a wall in my testing.

[JonBarber]

Bryant, do you have a plan against these new 16 counterspell Landstill decks? I thought I did with ANT, but apparently somewhere between the 13th and 16th hard counter things start to not look so good going long.

If your response is don't get into the draw bracket, that's acceptable.

I think the best plan is to play a raw tendrils for 20. If TES can resolve a burning wish, it should be in okay shape since the deck offers virtually no clock. The only risk is that of getting waste locked, but the chrome moxen help a lot there.

[Shimi]

Bryant, do you have a plan against these new 16 counterspell Landstill decks? I thought I did with ANT, but apparently somewhere between the 13th and 16th hard counter things start to not look so good going long.

If your response is don't get into the draw bracket, that's acceptable.

EtW can make it game1 , at game2 they have EE so a Tendrils from your hand could work.

[Bryant Cook]

Sometimes you can't win them all people. It's really hand based, board in 4 Swarms, draw Tendrils or Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish for them. There's plenty of time to do these things against Landstill.

You just can't expect to beat a deck with 16 counters every game by sideboarding. It's going to be rough, but that's a part of playing combo.

[lorddotm]

Sometimes you can't win them all people. It's really hand based, board in 4 Swarms, draw Tendrils or Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish for them. There's plenty of time to do these things against Landstill.

You just can't expect to beat a deck with 16 counters every game by sideboarding. It's going to be rough, but that's a part of playing combo.

Burning Wishing for Tendrils has been good for me. If that resolves, you win, just like 30 turns later...

To be fair, that is with TNT, not TES. I think Basics go a long way in fighting the long game against this deck.

[jjflipped]

Yeah, that Uw list popping up is pushing me further away from playing ANT/TES Ari. If the format slows down, I'm more inclined to play a combo deck with FoW. maybe some form of DD deck.

My initial idea with these decks was to add abeyance over silence/chant, getting around top and around misstep. that idea might be just as bad though because of snare.

[r3dd09]

what about against team america? * didn't see anything on the 1st page*

I played a few friendly games, running the current sideboard that's on the OP but might try a 1/1 split of chain and echoing.

any tips?

[Bryant Cook]

Is it really that different than New Horizons? Same disruption for the most part.

[lorddotm]

Is it really that different than New Horizons? Same disruption for the most part.

They have Hymn and Seize. But the principles are the same.

[r3dd09]

Sorry, i didn't take notes at all. went 3-1 at my first event with the deck * and basically first time playing most of the decks in a serious game*

took 3rd

round 1 2:0 simple merfolk, no forces, MM,wasteland or spell snare. basically budget.
g1- mul, went off on turn 2, pretty simple game
g2- he duressed me and got my infernal tutor, dug as hard as i could, at 6 life. went off by counting to 10 turn 11

round 2 0:2 reanimate with show and tell
g1- he won the dice roll and got rid of my burning wish, then turn 2 entomb, turn 3 iona reanimate for black.
g2- sideboard in bounce spells, I duress his reanimate, i dig for some answers, he discards iona, i play brainstorm and put echoing on top of the lib, luckily he uses thoughtseize, then reanimate iona targeting blue. gg, would have had it if he would have named any other color.

round 3 2:0 rogue green deck
g1- combo turn 3
g2- combo turn 1 using iggy

round 4 2-0 rogue w/b
g1- combo turn 2
g2- combo turn 3

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Sorry, i didn't take notes at all. went 3-1 at my first event with the deck * and basically first time playing most of the decks in a serious game*

took 3rd

round 1 2:0 simple merfolk, no forces, MM,wasteland or spell snare. basically budget.
g1- mul, went off on turn 2, pretty simple game
g2- he duressed me and got my infernal tutor, dug as hard as i could, at 6 life. went off by counting to 10 turn 11

round 2 0:2 reanimate with show and tell
g1- he won the dice roll and got rid of my burning wish, then turn 2 entomb, turn 3 iona reanimate for black.
g2- sideboard in bounce spells, I duress his reanimate, i dig for some answers, he discards iona, i play brainstorm and put echoing on top of the lib, luckily he uses thoughtseize, then reanimate iona targeting blue. gg, would have had it if he would have named any other color.

round 3 2:0 rogue green deck
g1- combo turn 3
g2- combo turn 1 using iggy

round 4 2-0 rogue w/b
g1- combo turn 2
g2- combo turn 3

Sometimes an early Empty can get you there against Reanimator.

[r3dd09]

Thanks for the tip, i thought about that but, i didn't have a way of getting it not was i able to pay for it :/

[Diprivan]

Sometimes an early Empty can get you there against Reanimator.

Exactly. On the play empty wins, on the draw it might lose to sphinx, but usually they'll have spent their turn 1 entomb getting iona.

(Or you play 4 reanimate, 4 exhume in your sb and go for the really big lulz:laugh:)

[lordofthepit]

Exactly. On the play empty wins, on the draw it might lose to sphinx, but usually they'll have spent their turn 1 entomb getting iona.

(Or you play 4 reanimate, 4 exhume in your sb and go for the really big lulz:laugh:)

Your Exhumes would be terrible though. :tongue:

[Diprivan]

Your Exhumes would be terrible though. :tongue:

That's why it's the big lulz. :tongue: That boarding plan has 2 ways of awesomeness, 4 cards for you, 4 for him; that's fair :wink:

Real post:
New starcitylist UW control, has 0 answers to empty the warrens preboard. We might enter a period where even against these decks etw becomes bonkers.
(it's premium, so I don't think I can copy the list without scg men in black suits confiscating my stuff)

[r3dd09]

how does this 4x etw work exactly, are you just dropping 4 gobos, if not more a turn. then hope they get in?

This post is lacking. Please see our site rules before posting again, especially the part about writing skills and the DTB Forum.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS

Bardo

[lorddotm]

how does this 4x etw work exactly, are you just dropping 4 gobos, if not more a turn. then hope they get in?

Yes.

[r3dd09]

I shall test it and see the outcome.

[TossUsToLions]

I know that most people here will try and go off on turn one against blue decks if they are on the play, right? Because there is only ~40% chance that they have the Force.

What about now with every blue deck running 4 Mental Missteps along with their Forces? Now they essentially have 8 cards that could be in their starting hand.

[OurSerratedDust]

I know that most people here will try and go off on turn one against blue decks if they are on the play, right? Because there is only ~40% chance that they have the Force.

What about now with every blue deck running 4 Mental Missteps along with their Forces? Now they essentially have 8 cards that could be in their starting hand.

I still would. In this case, you might lead with a rite of flame or ritual. If this gets misstepped, you haven't committed too much and can later recover.

[r3dd09]

I actually will mindgame them Into using their counters.

Against the faerie player * not Merfolk, my bad* turn 7 I believe. He had the land that bounces a wizard, and the one wizard faerie that has flash and counters to the number of faeries in play.

Well, my hand was stale, but I wanted him to bound the faerie so I could then make him discard it, played 4 ramp spells to make him do what I wanted him to, he then realized he didn't have enough to play the card, so I thoughtseized him, got the card. Then passed the turn

[ninja_attack]

I know that most people here will try and go off on turn one against blue decks if they are on the play, right? Because there is only ~40% chance that they have the Force.

What about now with every blue deck running 4 Mental Missteps along with their Forces? Now they essentially have 8 cards that could be in their starting hand.

I was testing against team america with misstep and lived the dream where on my turn three (i was on the play and he tapped out for goyf) I went orims chant (misstep pay 2), Rite of flame (misstep pay 2), Rite of flame, LED, Burning wish for tendrils.....

Moral of the story, we can use our opponent as a resource more, in this case he jacked my storm count by 4.... This is how I play against landstill most of the time.

[ninja_attack]

I know that most people here will try and go off on turn one against blue decks if they are on the play, right? Because there is only ~40% chance that they have the Force.

What about now with every blue deck running 4 Mental Missteps along with their Forces? Now they essentially have 8 cards that could be in their starting hand.

I was testing against team america with misstep and lived the dream where on my turn three (i was on the play and he tapped out for goyf) I went orims chant (misstep pay 2), Rite of flame (misstep pay 2), Rite of flame, LED, Burning wish for tendrils.....

Moral of the story, we can use our opponent as a resource more, in this case he jacked my storm count by 4.... This is how I play against landstill most of the time.

[r3dd09]

That's pretty sweet haha

[Van Phanel]

It's a valid point though. Lethal Tendrils from hand is far easier to achieve since there's misstep.

Until now, it was usually only possible to get until like 7 or 8 even including counters. the lifeloss from Misstep helps there. Even more so if they used one on an earlier turn to defend against disruption.

[cryptica]

After being absent from Legacy for some time, I decided to play this deck at a tournament next Saturday.

I am running the standard maindeck, however I am still unsure on the sideboard. Unfortunately I don't really know how the meta is. However I like the idea of the ETW plan, I might try that.

@Diprivan: Could you share how you sideboard with your version, especially against Merfolk and UWx Landstill? Do you bring in all the Xantid Swarms, Empty the Warrens and also the Chain of Vapors? What do you take out? And do you bring in the Tropical Island along with the Swarms?

[Diprivan]

After being absent from Legacy for some time, I decided to play this deck at a tournament next Saturday.

I am running the standard maindeck, however I am still unsure on the sideboard. Unfortunately I don't really know how the meta is. However I like the idea of the ETW plan, I might try that.

@Diprivan: Could you share how you sideboard with your version, especially against Merfolk and UWx Landstill? Do you bring in all the Xantid Swarms, Empty the Warrens and also the Chain of Vapors? What do you take out? And do you bring in the Tropical Island along with the Swarms?

Merfolk:

out:
- 4 duress
- 1 ponder
- 1 infernal tutor

in:
+ 1 tropical island
+ 3 xantid swarm
+ 2 etw

note: standard mono U folk: 4 fow, 4 daze, 4 mm, some pierces side, no permanent based hate.

You don't take out any mana, because of taxing counters and maximizing the odds of turn 1-2 tokens/kill

UWlandstill:

Traditional version: 4 fow, 4 mm, 2-3 counterspell, white sweepers/humility/moat/EE

out:
- 1 empty the warrens
- 1 chrome mox
- 1 ponder
- 1 infernal tutor

+ 1 tropical island
+ 1 ill gotten gains
+ 2 chain of vapor

new lists UW control: 16 counters (4 fow, 4 cs, 4 MM, 4 snare), no EE/sweepers

out:
- 4 duress
- 1 ponder
- 1 infernal tutor

in:
+ 1 tropical island
+ 3 xantid swarm
+ 2 etw

NOTE: these are based upon 'normal sideboards' ie general metagamed decks. If you play in a group of 8 players and you've been kicking their asses week after week with TES, expect more hate and play/board accordingly.

If I board the xantids, I board the tropical everytime. (6 5c lands << 6 5c lands, 4 fetch, 1 tropical. Especially when facing wastelands)
I don't like blowing a petal on it, so I don't count them.

Sometimes the tropical comes in without the xantids. Against decks who attack my manabase (rock, deadguy,...) the extra tropical has been golden for me.
If you play in the fairytale metagame where people haven't yet discoverd how bonkers wasteland is, you play 4 xantids in side and drop the tropical.

For those who think zoo is about to kick our ass with MM:
For starters, stop messaging me like it's the end of the world.
Check Zoo players their SB/zoo thread. They think combo is gone with MM and either play MM or some hatebears or nothing on side:
Hatebears, no MM: chain ftw
MM, no hatebears: chain ftw (you don't know in advance what they'll board, but without bears, chain >> truth, wipe away, whatever, just beacuse of it's mana cost and ability to create additional storm with it)

[cryptica]

Thank you for the detailed post, Diprivan.

I guess I will try it out on Saturday. Afterwards I will post a tournament report on how it went.

[r3dd09]

Might have to use the etw next Tuesday, seems pretty fun. And it'd make my scrubby scene happy.

Don't want to scare them away by turn 1 win

[AriLax]

Bryant, do you have a plan against these new 16 counterspell Landstill decks? I thought I did with ANT, but apparently somewhere between the 13th and 16th hard counter things start to not look so good going long.

If your response is don't get into the draw bracket, that's acceptable.

I've discovered the answers were

1. Make a better board, basically more Tendrils (EtW in this deck does the same).
2. Cantrip better, start remembering to not auto ship Tendrils as it's the best card.
3. No one knows how to play against Storm. It skews testing when they go into the tank for 5 minutes and instead of letting them punt you then explain to them all the lines and what play to make.
4. This is still Legacy and you will play a million other decks. Not all of them will have 15 hard counters, sometimes they only have 9 and you win.
5. Bob.

[Tammit67]

I've discovered the answers were

1. Make a better board, basically more Tendrils (EtW in this deck does the same).
2. Cantrip better, start remembering to not auto ship Tendrils as it's the best card.
3. No one knows how to play against Storm. It skews testing when they go into the tank for 5 minutes and instead of letting them punt you then explain to them all the lines and what play to make.
4. This is still Legacy and you will play a million other decks. Not all of them will have 15 hard counters, sometimes they only have 9 and you win.
5. Bob.

I can definately get behind another tendrils postboard.

[Basaka]

So I went to a legacy tourny today, 16 people. Piloting TES.

Went 1-3 because of horrible MUs. Most likely some bad sideboarding too.

http://forums.gameplayer.co.nz/default.aspx?g=posts&t=27191

Any advices on SBing against those decks?

Also - Mental misstep seems to screw this deck over more than I think. I might have to move to the ANT/TES hybrid for a while...

There is another tournament next week, so any advice for me to improve on would be appreciated!

[Arew]

Yeah, I was thinking of going to the ANT/TES hybrid too since Misstep is so big and it slows us down by at least 1-2 turns.

[TossUsToLions]

I'm thinking about cutting the Orim's Chant for Spell Pierces in the main board. Spell Pierce hits Duress/Thoughseize/Hymns against Junk/TA, Chalice/Trinishphere against Stax-decks, and all of the counters that Orim's Chant is in there to protect us against. Playing it would also allow us to cut out the white completely and play a more stable manabase. I understand that Chant can be used to buy us a turn against aggro decks, but looking at the current meta, I don't think that that is too important right now. I also feel that Xantid Swarm, out of the board, does Orim's Chant's role better than Orim's Chant.

[TUMBLES]

Orim's Chant turns on IGG against blue, isn't useless with LED, and does great things vs other storm decks. Replacing those with Spell Pierces just seems bad.

[TossUsToLions]

Orim's Chant turns on IGG against blue, isn't useless with LED, and does great things vs other storm decks. Replacing those with Spell Pierces just seems bad.

That's true, I guess I'm just biased because I have very little experience with the deck and my meta consists mostly of Wasteland decks with no or little counters (Stax, Junk, Aggro Bant). Against these decks, I would like to cut the white to make room for a basic land or two, and have an answer to all the random decks that i face (MBC, MBA) that play massive amounts of discard.

[Basaka]

I'm thinking of cutting Duresses for missteps in my meta, as my Duresses ALWAYS gets missteped. Might be better starting misstep wars for storm counts...

[Wave]

I'm thinking of cutting Duresses for missteps in my meta, as my Duresses ALWAYS gets missteped. Might be better starting misstep wars for storm counts...

What are you going to do against FOW then? hope for chant or double tutor? doesen't seem too good to me. Especially when it is stuck in your hand with an infernal or you need to discard it to LED. I'd rather use Defence Grid or ETW plan from the board if you are afraid of Missteps, although it has been discussed at leangth before.

[r3dd09]

misstep wars can lead to you possibly killing yourself with ad n. just depends, but like i said a few pages back, I won being at 6 life and didn't ad n. just need the right hand.

EDIT: but i'd rather have duress and chants over a MM.

[thatoneguy]

there are examples of hands to keep and how to play them, but what does a bad hand with this deck look like? are there example of a bad hand, or hands to mulligan?

[Basaka]

The problem with last night's tournament is that I NEVER got to resolve a single Duress against blue decks. Maybe my luck just sucks and my opponent always have nut draws.

I may want to try the hybrid list.

[r3dd09]

there are examples of hands to keep and how to play them, but what does a bad hand with this deck look like? are there example of a bad hand, or hands to mulligan?

this is where playtesting the hell out of this deck comes important. On my downtime, i play against proxy decks and learn what hands to keep, what to expect.

Just because you have a hand that has a 1 turn kill, doesn't mean it'll happen.

[Tammit67]

there are examples of hands to keep and how to play them, but what does a bad hand with this deck look like? are there example of a bad hand, or hands to mulligan?

Also check the primer. You know, the first page of the thread. Bryant has provided a ton of information.

[lorddotm]

there are examples of hands to keep and how to play them, but what does a bad hand with this deck look like? are there example of a bad hand, or hands to mulligan?

I swear, I just talked about this on the previous thread. People are stupid.



The problem with last night's tournament is that I NEVER got to resolve a single Duress against blue decks. Maybe my luck just sucks and my opponent always have nut draws.

I may want to try the hybrid list.

It has been very good. Tears apart the UW Landstill. With my saucy sideboard.

[Basaka]

It has been very good. Tears apart the UW Landstill. With my saucy sideboard.

Can I please get some more information on this, I have another tournament next saturday, and I may change my build to accomodate for the large numbers of Fish in my meta.

[lorddotm]

Can I please get some more information on this, I have another tournament next saturday, and I may change my build to accomodate for the large numbers of Fish in my meta.

Read my article on Gathering Magic. My name is Liam Kane. That build has been good v fish. Add another Seize for even better game.

[TUMBLES]

Shelldock/Emrakul plan is good and all, but that eats up a lot of your sideboard in conjunction with the wish targets in order to improve the matchup against Countertop, which is something that hasn't been all that popular... though could change. Is that worth it?

The difference I see is that DD only has to dedicate 2 slots to do that, while yours has to pull in 6 cards for that plan.

[lorddotm]

Shelldock/Emrakul plan is good and all, but that eats up a lot of your sideboard in conjunction with the wish targets in order to improve the matchup against Countertop, which is something that hasn't been all that popular... though could change. Is that worth it?

The difference I see is that DD only has to dedicate 2 slots to do that, while yours has to pull in 6 cards for that plan.

I don't run it anymore.

[Namida]

What's the board looking like, then?

[Basaka]

Yeah, I kinda posted /before/ realizing you're Liam :p

The list seems really good at dodging missteps, making the fish matchup much better.

I'm interested in your new board, too.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I take back my thoughts on the EtW plan. I still think it is absolutely horrid against CB and CBThopter but against basically everything else it has proven to be a total beast. I have been going -2 Personal Tutor, -2 Brainstorm and +2 EtW, +1 Thoughtseize, and +1 Swarm. Playing 9 protection spells and 3 EtW against all this blue bullshit has actually been pretty good. Keeping AdN in is actually not bad at all, even if you flip yourself low you can still Empty for like 14+ and rip their hand apart. I thought this would be worthless but since you don't have to worry about EE or Firespout this card gets incredibly strong.

Now I am not sure if I want to bring in all that against Merfolk, but against Landstill the answer is yes. Empty for 10-12 against Merfolk can still fail but if it hits turn 1 its usually lethal so I am not sure as of yet; further testing will tell. But as long as CB dies down, as it should because it now sucks against most things that aren't combo then the EtW plan may be totally viable.

[Diprivan]

I take back my thoughts on the EtW plan. I still think it is absolutely horrid against CB and CBThopter but against basically everything else it has proven to be a total beast. I have been going -2 Personal Tutor, -2 Brainstorm and +2 EtW, +1 Thoughtseize, and +1 Swarm. Playing 9 protection spells and 3 EtW against all this blue bullshit has actually been pretty good. Keeping AdN in is actually not bad at all, even if you flip yourself low you can still Empty for like 14+ and rip their hand apart. I thought this would be worthless but since you don't have to worry about EE or Firespout this card gets incredibly strong.

Now I am not sure if I want to bring in all that against Merfolk, but against Landstill the answer is yes. Empty for 10-12 against Merfolk can still fail but if it hits turn 1 its usually lethal so I am not sure as of yet; further testing will tell. But as long as CB dies down, as it should because it now sucks against most things that aren't combo then the EtW plan may be totally viable.

I'm glad you like it.

I agree it sucks against CBthopter. Though I think we should consider this deck more and more as a sort of Quinn/landstillesque variant as I see more and more build who only play 1 counterbalance maindeck and depend more and more heavily upon their tutorable lockpieces like moat, bridge, ... So we don't need a real plan against them, the matchup just becomes good without the green men.

Countertopdecks are very diverse ("Countertop is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you gonna get" :eyebrow:)
Have you playtested the etw plan against bant countertop? They literally have no answer to it and I really liked it against them.
More controllish, non creature centered countertop lists usually play MB 2-3 firespout, 0-2 EE (+some trinket mage) Etw becomes more of a gamble against them, but sometimes you'll be able to guess how many sweepers they'll be playing just by watching G1/scouting/stealing their decklist. I'll board etw plan against a list with just 2 sweepers, I'll take my chances then (+turn 1 empty 10+ can't be firespouted away)

On playing 9 protection spells:
Right now, I'm playing the normal 8. Though playing 9 definitely has its obv merits, I sticked with 8 for now, as like I said, I really want to maximize my chances of reaching 4/5/6/7 mana turn 1. I'll test it out.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Agreed on CB variance, but in my meta it is basically the old Probasco lists with Firespouts mainboard and some combination of EEs. There is 1 guy who plays Thopter but everything else is basically the same list give or take 5 cards out of the 75.

I am currently playing 7 protection spells main and it seems fine. After boarding though I bring in 2 so I can up it to 9 and look for the turn 1-2 EtW shenanigans. For reference, here is what I am playing, the deck has been a total beast in testing, especially in the combo mirror, but its just dead to CB and has a weaker Stax matchup than I would like since I can't fit Rebuild in, its way to much of a coinflip matchup for my tastes:

4x Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
2x Personal Tutor
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Swarm
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Ad Nauseam

4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Mire
1x Tarn
1x Strand

SB

1x Echoing Truth
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Swarm
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize
2x Deathmark
1x D Returns
1x IGG
3x EtW
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils

I posted the list a few pages back and have been working on it recently. Slowly the EtW in the main grew on me, in a totally varied meta I would much prefer it to be AdN #2 but with the heavy blue shift I think EtW is just fine for now. Personal Tutor is .... really fucking good. With the EtW plan its rather .. meh since you usually prefer a cantrip and don't give up a draw, but in basically every other match its insanely good. Especially against heavy discard decks, you can just drop LEDs and tutor up an IT. The fact that it finds all relevant cards aside from Dark Rit and AdN is quite awesome. Rite of Flame and Duress are what I tutor for most often g1 and after the board, its like Mystical all over again. Get Meltdown/Spree (whichever is boarded in) or Deathmark. I am really liking this card the more I play it.

The only thing that bothers me is that in theory it should be good with the EtW plan right? I find myself 50/50 on whether I should board it out or not. Because its for sure that I am boarding out 2 Brainstorms already, I just debate on taking the other 2 out or the Tutors. Cause I love Brainstorm and with hands with IT, BW, land, Rit, I would prefer the Tutor, but all business hands I really don't want to throw away but BS can dig for accel and protection while Tutor just won't get it done and sets me back a draw and a card. Thus far I still like the 6 cantrip configuration post-board but it just seems like Tutor should be better than it is with the EtW plan. I will continue testing and see which is preferable.

[Diprivan]

Agreed on CB variance, but in my meta it is basically the old Probasco lists with Firespouts mainboard and some combination of EEs. There is 1 guy who plays Thopter but everything else is basically the same list give or take 5 cards out of the 75.

I am currently playing 7 protection spells main and it seems fine. After boarding though I bring in 2 so I can up it to 9 and look for the turn 1-2 EtW shenanigans. For reference, here is what I am playing, the deck has been a total beast in testing, especially in the combo mirror, but its just dead to CB and has a weaker Stax matchup than I would like since I can't fit Rebuild in, its way to much of a coinflip matchup for my tastes:

4x Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
2x Personal Tutor
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Swarm
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Ad Nauseam

4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Mire
1x Tarn
1x Strand

SB

1x Echoing Truth
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Swarm
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize
2x Deathmark
1x D Returns
1x IGG
4x EtW
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils

I posted the list a few pages back and have been working on it recently. Slowly the EtW in the main grew on me, in a totally varied meta I would much prefer it to be AdN #2 but with the heavy blue shift I think EtW is just fine for now. Personal Tutor is .... really fucking good. With the EtW plan its rather .. meh since you usually prefer a cantrip and don't give up a draw, but in basically every other match its insanely good. Especially against heavy discard decks, you can just drop LEDs and tutor up an IT. The fact that it finds all relevant cards aside from Dark Rit and AdN is quite awesome. Rite of Flame and Duress are what I tutor for most often g1 and after the board, its like Mystical all over again. Get Meltdown/Spree (whichever is boarded in) or Deathmark. I am really liking this card the more I play it.

The only thing that bothers me is that in theory it should be good with the EtW plan right? I find myself 50/50 on whether I should board it out or not. Because its for sure that I am boarding out 2 Brainstorms already, I just debate on taking the other 2 out or the Tutors. Cause I love Brainstorm and with hands with IT, BW, land, Rit, I would prefer the Tutor, but all business hands I really don't want to throw away but BS can dig for accel and protection while Tutor just won't get it done and sets me back a draw and a card. Thus far I still like the 6 cantrip configuration post-board but it just seems like Tutor should be better than it is with the EtW plan. I will continue testing and see which is preferable.

I haven't tested personal tutor yet, but it certainly has potential.

About personal tutor and etw: I guess leaving tutor in, decreases turn 1 etw plays, but increases turn 2 etw plays.
I'm surprised about boarding out the brainstorms, but maybe I'm biased as I really really like that card. Though, going for the etw plan changes the deck and you really don't want to cut on mana sources with etw really depending on turn 1-2 to be effective.

I still board out the Adn. (I know, I know: overpowered card etc) My reasoning: I rarely need it with the etw plan. Etw is more easily to cast turn 1-2 and if the game drags on, either the tokens put my opponent at low life and a storm 3-4 tendrils is enough or Iggy comes in (especially my list, since I have 3 swarm + 4 chant to make iggy an I win card) This is different for your list ofc.

PS: your side has 3 etw

[Pulp_Fiction]

Fixed the list, was quite tired typing that. When playing the EtW plan I think cutting Brainstorms/Ponders are exactly what you want 2 do. In order for EtW to be effective you need all of the acceleration spells you can. I don't think it matters cutting BS or Ponder, just personal preference. If I BS into terrible cards ur left topdecking, but Ponder just says ... nope, lets try again, thats why I prefer it to BS. Everything is geared towards a protected turn 1-3 massive explosion. I also play less fetches making BS weaker.

With 7 Chant effects IGGY does seem better than AdN, but the only problem I see with IGG is that it is totally reliant on those chants. AdN just draws a shit ton of cards regardless of your protection spells, thats why I like it. But if you rarely ever encounter a situation where you don't have chant + IGG and it works then keep playing it. It just seems like it will be terrible in your opener and most of the time a bad topdeck where as AdN is neither of those and unreliant on which form of protection spell you have.

[Van Phanel]

I think there should be an IGG in the 75 just so it's possible to go off on a low life total without having to rely on Returns.

[lorddotm]

What's the board looking like, then?

-4 DD
-1 Emrakul
-1 SI

+2 Tendrils
+1 Seize
+3 Blanks (currently Bobs, and currently hating them)

[Arew]

Hrm, I don't really like the Bobs, but I love the main. I can't really think of what to replace them with though.

[r3dd09]

Got matchuped up against the Reanimate deck.

A lot closer this time, but he got it

Played against a bad build of affinity, mul to 5,

Turn 5 for tons of goblins. Her friend told her what to play and what not, or I would have won that game. Game 2. Kept a hand that only needed 1 mana source of anything to go off, 6 turns later, nothing.

Round 3, played against vial goblin and went off turn 2 both games via iggy.

Round 4, bye. I hate byes >.>

Might switch to Merfolk once so I win pending on prize support.
But will most likely stick with tes

[Van Phanel]

Hrm, I don't really like the Bobs, but I love the main. I can't really think of what to replace them with though.

Defense Grid might be an option with everybody and their mother running Misstep right now. I'm currently trying to fit 3 in my sideboard (and having trouble with finding the slots).

[lorddotm]

Defense Grid might be an option with everybody and their mother running Misstep right now. I'm currently trying to fit 3 in my sideboard (and having trouble with finding the slots).

He is talking about TNT. Defense Grid is kind of loose against Daze if you are playing TES, and it doesn't really stop them form just holding up three mana (and in the case of Merfolk, playing out their threats using Vial)

[Van Phanel]

Trust me, if any deck just keeps open three mana every turn, then I won't mind them being able to counter once when I go off on like turn 6 or 7. What you said about Vial and Daze obviously is true to some extent though.

[lorddotm]

Trust me, if any deck just keeps open three mana every turn, then I won't mind them being able to counter once when I go off on like turn 6 or 7. What you said about Vial and Daze obviously is true to some extent though.

Standstill decks keep open mana all the time (not that I ever expect Defense Grid to resolve against them if they don't want it to), BUG can easily counter or remove it from your hand, that leaves this as a card against Merfolk. Merfolk runs 4 Daze and 4 Wasteland, you run 13 nonbasics. I don't expect you to resolve this against them either, however, it might be possible.

[Arew]

Yeah, Defense Grid seems a little shaky, also, should we make a thread for TNT, because at least for the time being, it doesn't look like Mental Misstep is going anywhere.

Edit: As much as I hate sideboarding lands, what about:

-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Confidant
+1 Tropical Island
+3 Xantid Swarm

I might try this, don't know.

[lorddotm]

Yeah, Defense Grid seems a little shaky, also, should we make a thread for TNT, because at least for the time being, it doesn't look like Mental Misstep is going anywhere.

Edit: As much as I hate sideboarding lands, what about:

-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Confidant
+1 Tropical Island
+3 Xantid Swarm

I might try this, don't know.

I'll throw up a thread and primer after the GP.

[Bryant Cook]

I'll be posting my new list after the GP as well, since I've actually been playing Magic recently. If anyone wants my list for the GP before hand, just message me.

[lorddotm]

I'll be posting my new list after the GP as well, since I've actually been playing Magic recently. If anyone wants my list for the GP before hand, just message me.

Since I'm not going, you have to take it down, you are aware of that right?