[Deck] Elves Combo

[Sims]

Anyone thought about running 1 or 2 Spoils of the vault or Demonic Consultation to find a glimpse/Nettle/Heritage?

Spoils seems unnecessary... The life loss can quickly add up, which is why it's an all in style card that I don't think Elves can afford to play.

Consultation would be fantastic if I didn't get DQ'd for playing it.

[k2thej]

Spoils seems unnecessary... The life loss can quickly add up, which is why it's an all in style card that I don't think Elves can afford to play.

Consultation would be fantastic if I didn't get DQ'd for playing it.

hahahaha didn't check if it was banned.

[Koby]

What about Brainstorm?

Nass & Hatch seemed to find a pretty sick way to run Elves.

Glimpse, Brainstorm, Intuition, VV.

You get more card drawing power, more focused tutoring, and inevitability too.

[Alexeezay]

Yea why isn't the combo elves list by Nass & Hatch listed here? Does anybody of you play it like them(VV & blue splash with brainstorm & intuition). I tested it a few times & it's pretty solid.

[k2thej]

Yea why isn't the combo elves list by Nass & Hatch listed here? Does anybody of you play it like them(VV & blue splash with brainstorm & intuition). I tested it a few times & it's pretty solid.

It does seem pretty decent, but it is a different deck. It should be called Vengevine Elves or something.

[NihilObstat]

Hi guys! I made top 8 this saturday out of 28 people. I'll just do a quick report:

Round 1 - ANT - 2-1. I win thanks to 3 Thorn of amethyst, 2 Orim's chant, 1 Gaddock Teeg.

Round 2 - Affinity - 0-2. I got Game Loss due to a mistake in my list and then on game 2 he cast turn 2 Tangle Wire when I was gonna combo off turn 2.

Round 3 - Eva-rock - 1-0 Long and difficult, but enchant removal + aggro threats were enough to keep those Pernicious Deed controlled. Mirror entity rocks!

Round 4 - ANT - 2-1. Again thanks exclusively to the sideboard.

Round 5 - Supreme Blue faeries - 1-1. We agreed to tie to make top8.

Top8 - The same Affinity - 1-2. I lost again due to his sideboard. He sided in 3 Engineered Plague, 3 Ethersworn canonist, 4 Cabal Therapy (we know each other so he discards all my Glimpse before I even start playing) + he had 4 maindeck Tangle Wire.

A few notes:
-I wasn't able to combo even once in the whole tournament, Affinity and Eva discarded my glimpses all the time, and against ANT I had to spend all my mana to tutor-cast threats against them. Thankfully Mirror Entity just makes such a fast aggro backup.
-If I had run, at least 1 or 2 Lords in my side, probably Champion and Imperious the Plagues wouldn't have hurt at all. I also couldn't find my Joraga and didn't play him which could have made a difference, too :(
-ANT seems so easy to win in their UB current list. Landing a Thorn gives us so many extra turns.
-I played against the Supreme blue in round 5 just for fun, and as I've been realizing lately, I'm lucky I don't see too much multicolored blue in my meta. They are an incredibly tough pairing.


I'll link the decklist when it's uploaded ;)
I think more people should report their tournies, specially if they are 30 or more people. I believe that can improve the threads talk about, results and not just decklists.

[Coleco]

48 players tournament at L'imaginaire in Quebec City. I play Natural Order instead of Summoner's pact.

round 1 = Zoo - Win 2-1
Win 1 game through three tarmogoyf 5/6 with Natural order and a small army of elves powered by a Archdruid + Joraga. Combo Emrakul the second win.

round 2 = UWB control - Loss 1-2
Win 1 game with a Natural Order after he counter 2 Glimpse. Loss game 2 and 3 to a total of 6 Pernicious Deed. Third game he got 4 Deed, I force him to blow them all and he force of will 2 Natural Order after that.

round 3 = affinity Win 2-1
Really fun match. Fast Natural Order got him one game and fast combo for Emrakul the other game.

round 4 = Berserk Stompy 2-0
2 hard games. Emrakul one turn before he could kill both time.

round 5 = Zoo Win 2-1
I got him the first game with Natural Order/Prog. The second game, again I resolve Natural Order and thought I got this one as well... but no! He desesperatly summon a Bloodbraid elf (he play 1 or 2 in is deck). He reveal the first card and its a land.. second card.... Runed Halo! (he have 1 in is sideboard lol) An army of tarmogoyf beat me. Third game, Natural Order for the match. Epic games and really cool opponent.

round 6 = ID

Top 8 = Zoo - 2-0
I manage to win a game against Gaddock Teeg AND Ethersworn Canonist. Joraga 5/5 + army of elves ftw. The other game he play a Canonist again but no Teeg so I resolve a Natural order for a easy win.

Split top 4.

PS: Sorry for my english.

[Koplinchen]

hello everybody,

I am running some sort of a classic build. I also used k2thej side:


1 E champ
2 fecundity
4 crypt, grip, leyline

It worked for me just fine but now I feel I need to include 4 thorn of amethyst. because ant is just faster and has diruption. Isnt 1 art ench destroying elf needed as well? (viridian, nullmage) What would you guys suggest?

- 1 grip; -4 crypt = 4 ToA 1nullmage shepard

What do you think? I love this deck.

thx

[GGoober]

What would Nullmage do to combo? Seems to slow to hit Chromes and LEDs. Although Nullmage sure beats the hell out of Affinity :P

[Neil]

hello everybody,

I am running some sort of a classic build. I also used k2thej side:


1 E champ
2 fecundity
4 crypt, grip, leyline

It worked for me just fine but now I feel I need to include 4 thorn of amethyst. because ant is just faster and has diruption. Isnt 1 art ench destroying elf needed as well? (viridian, nullmage) What would you guys suggest?

- 1 grip; -4 crypt = 4 ToA 1nullmage shepard

What do you think? I love this deck.

thx

Glad you like the deck. I think Nullmage looks to slow. I would go with either Viridian shaman or Zealot depending on your meta. Also I don't think it makes sense to run less than 4 Krosan grips, but run a Viridian instead in the sideboard. It might make sense to do that if you use living wish main deck. Have you considered running a Viridian Zealot main deck? I found that to be really good.

[k2thej]

Glad you like the deck. I think Nullmage looks to slow. I would go with either Viridian shaman or Zealot depending on your meta. Also I don't think it makes sense to run less than 4 Krosan grips, but run a Viridian instead in the sideboard. It might make sense to do that if you use living wish main deck. Have you considered running a Viridian Zealot main deck? I found that to be really good.

Ya the wishboard is working out really well for me. I wouldn't call the board cited as mine my board anymore. I am a wish convert. I prefer leyline over grip since it gives us a phenomenal matchup against control.

[kyller83]

Ya the wishboard is working out really well for me. I wouldn't call the board cited as mine my board anymore. I am a wish convert. I prefer leyline over grip since it gives us a phenomenal matchup against control.

what is your board looking like these days? we run nearly identical lists and i have a "library of alexandria" legacy tourney on saturday.

my board is currently

4 thorn of amethyst
4 leyline of lifeforce
1 gaea's cradle
1 terastadon
1 emrakul
1 masticore
1 ezuri
1 viridian shaman
1 eternal witness

i think everything is really solid except for one maybe two slots(eternal witness). am i right in that terastadon and shaman can't get rid of humility?

[1maarten1]

what is your board looking like these days? we run nearly identical lists and i have a "library of alexandria" legacy tourney on saturday.

my board is currently

4 thorn of amethyst
4 leyline of lifeforce
1 gaea's cradle
1 terastadon
1 emrakul
1 masticore
1 ezuri
1 viridian shaman
1 eternal witness

i think everything is really solid except for one maybe two slots(eternal witness). am i right in that terastadon and shaman can't get rid of humility?

Go run Ulamog if you want to hate humility :)!

[Waikiki]

How on earth do you plan on killing humility with a creature ?

[Koby]

You plan on killing humility with a creature by attacking with many 1/1s

Fixed that for you. =D

[kyller83]

ulamog would work cause its ability happens when you play it not when it comes into play, but getting to 11 mana with a humility out is going to be very difficult.

the problem with just attacking with a bunch of 1/1's is you have no way to generate absurd amounts of mana other than cradle which i personally only run one of as a wish target.

so far i see the best route is to go off before they stick a humility which is very doable. even if you half combo and stick like 8-9 creatures then the humility will really only slow you down a turn.

[Mr. Safety]

what is your board looking like these days? we run nearly identical lists and i have a "library of alexandria" legacy tourney on saturday.

my board is currently

4 thorn of amethyst
4 leyline of lifeforce
1 gaea's cradle
1 terastadon
1 emrakul
1 masticore
1 ezuri
1 viridian shaman
1 eternal witness

i think everything is really solid except for one maybe two slots(eternal witness). am i right in that terastadon and shaman can't get rid of humility?

Just to clarify, Humility is a static effect, it doesn't prevent entering-the-battlefield triggers. Viridian Shaman (sadly) only deals with artifacts. Your best bet is probably Krosan Grip/Gleeful Sabotage to deal with Humility.

[arebennian]

Just to clarify, Humility is a static effect, it doesn't prevent entering-the-battlefield triggers.

Wow.
I'd like to see you pull that in a big match.

[Hawdes]

Just to clarify, Humility is a static effect, it doesn't prevent entering-the-battlefield triggers. Viridian Shaman (sadly) only deals with artifacts. Your best bet is probably Krosan Grip/Gleeful Sabotage to deal with Humility.

I lol'd!

[kyller83]

i'm dumb i was thinking viridian zealot which has an activated ability. which becomes a 1/1 nothing before i can sac it.

[Hawdes]

Enters the battlefield abilities do not resolve with an active humility in play. Why they won't resolve are taken care of in layer ruling.
Look it up.
It's a complicated procedure of priorities in different layers, which are controlled by time stamps.

[arebennian]

Yeah, I know most of you don't consider it the same deck, but I'll post it here anyway.

Matt Nass has written about the deck he took to the Top 16 of San Jose SCG.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...gacy-gu-elves/

[k2thej]

I really wouldn't be concerned at all with humility. If you don't combo by turn four, that's your fault. Adding stuff to answer humility will just dilute the potency of the combo and ultimately make the deck worse. This deck's best answer to most threats to race those threats, and humility is one of them.

[kyller83]

yeah after getting to do a little testing against enchantress i've realized its not really a big deal. at worst i'll wish for terastadon while comboing.

the only changes i've made to my board is putting in a viridian corrupter for the viridian shaman.

k2thej: i was wondering if you still ran eternal witness. it seems that i very rarely wish for her and when i do i usually wish she was an elf. i'm not sure what i'd add. faerie macabre, a 2nd regal force, a viridian zealot, one of the elf lords? i dunno all seem to have merits.

[k2thej]

yeah after getting to do a little testing against enchantress i've realized its not really a big deal. at worst i'll wish for terastadon while comboing.

the only changes i've made to my board is putting in a viridian corrupter for the viridian shaman.

k2thej: i was wondering if you still ran eternal witness. it seems that i very rarely wish for her and when i do i usually wish she was an elf. i'm not sure what i'd add. faerie macabre, a 2nd regal force, a viridian zealot, one of the elf lords? i dunno all seem to have merits.

No she didn't make the cut. I never went for her ever. Here is my current board, with one spot still open (which is listed as wasteland right now). I am testing a few different things, but am currently testing wasteland:

1 Wasteland
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

[PhantomOtter]

So k2thej

What is your current list with sideboard and any current matches and results???

[Just me]

I've been toying with this deck for about 2 weeks now and I have had great succes with Genesis Wave but do not see this card mentioned on the boards here, any reason? I mean, 15+ mana means a decent shot at even Emrakul but it get's soooo much land and elves and symbiotes in play that it's just sick. Add Concordant Crossroads or Staff of Domination for a direct win (but maybe that's making it to cute?).

[Shabbaman]

Genesis Wave is mentioned in 22 posts in this thread.

[k2thej]

Genesis Wave is mentioned in 22 posts in this thread.

Shabbaman<3

Phantom- here is my current list:


4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Wasteland



It's testing really well. As I said in my last post, Wasteland is just being tested, but I thought it was an interesting use of wish and one I had never seen before. If we need to take out a tabernacle, Karakas for Emrakul, glacial chasm, or other more widely played things that I am forgetting it might help. Again, still in testing though.

The other cards I am considering for the wasteland slot are Multani's Acolyte and maybe Skullmulcher

[Just me]

Genesis Wave is mentioned in 22 posts in this thread.

Let me rephrase that;

@ K2thje and other experienced Elves-combo players;
Why are you not running Genesis Wave? Personally I have trouble seeing the value of Summoner's Pact. Fetching Nettle Sentinel and/or hertiage Druid and occasionally Regal Force is all it does and this leads to a difficult and slow going combo if you had Glimpse. Setting up a 'small' Wave for about X= 7 seems about as good and provides Glimpse 5-6-7(-8) in a way, as in , a card to start to combo with and end the turn with overwhelming boardadvantage. Downside remains you will need 1 more turn to win, that's why I do run 2x Living Wish and 1x Emrakul but still. It feels powerful but the last couple of posted decks doesn't run this.

Can someone better with this deck (like, all of you) explain why Genesis Wave is not being run in the current decks?

[k2thej]

Let me rephrase that;

@ K2thje and other experienced Elves-combo players;
Why are you not running Genesis Wave? Personally I have trouble seeing the value of Summoner's Pact. Fetching Nettle Sentinel and/or hertiage Druid and occasionally Regal Force is all it does and this leads to a difficult and slow going combo if you had Glimpse. Setting up a 'small' Wave for about X= 7 seems about as good and provides Glimpse 5-6-7(-8) in a way, as in , a card to start to combo with and end the turn with overwhelming boardadvantage. Downside remains you will need 1 more turn to win, that's why I do run 2x Living Wish and 1x Emrakul but still. It feels powerful but the last couple of posted decks doesn't run this.

Can someone better with this deck (like, all of you) explain why Genesis Wave is not being run in the current decks?


Ok so, first of all, summoner's pact is almost single handedly responsible for the consistency of this deck. Think of it this way- you only use it when comboing, and it is a wild card for any creature in your deck. When you are comboing it is free since you will have plenty of mana. The #1 target to start a combo is, sure, either nettle or heritage, but mid combo visionary is the main target. This summoners pact into essentially draw two cards for free while glimpsing. It becomes anything you need at any given time, and if you care clever enough, it will give you an extremely high combo consistency with this deck.

As for Genesis wave, you said x=7 would be a small wave, so you need 10 mana to pull this off. If you have a summoner's pact, you can cast a regal force for three less than that and most likely get more cards, and if you don't, if you have a wish, you can cast a regal force for one less than your suggested wave and still most likely get more cards out of it. Consistency with this deck comes from cards that are never dead, that's why summoner's pact and wish are awesome, but genesis wave is dead until later in the combo, at which point there will always be better options to cast. It's not horrible, it's just not better than other cards that we can use.

Genesis wave, to me, is just a worse regal force. It costs more for less card advantage, and if you are glimpsing, you don't get to draw for the guys that enter the field. Thus, wave actually hurts your combo since it takes aways a bunch of glimpse fuel and puts them on the field as if glimpse was inactive.

[voltron00x]

This is the part of the conversation where I argue that Genesis Wave is a very strong back-up Glimpse, and k2thej says you don’t need a back-up Glimpse because you always have it and it always resolves, or something else I struggle to wrap my brain around and therefore withdraw from the conversation.

Further, I would point out that the comparisons above aren't really relevant to the argument for/against Genesis Wave. I play Wave WITH Pact and WITH Regal Force. I’m not cutting those cards to play Wave.

Just Me – go back like 4 pages in this thread and you’ll see this exact conversation. I think Wave is very good, it has been and continues to be quite strong in my testing. That appears to be the minority opinion in this thread, however.

[kyller83]

well said k2the j.

i'd also like to point out that with 4 pacts and 3 living wishes you are essentially running 8 regal forces.

if you're going to run gen wave you have to build your deck so that it is your end game. it doesn't put cards in your hand to let you keep drawing off of glimpse so you need to make it guarantee a victory. passing the turn after you've reached full combo is extremely dangerous and not the point of this deck at all. if you want to run gen wave i'd suggest multiple concordant crossroads, mirror entities, and maindeck cradles.

k2thej: i couldn't help but notice you cut masticore from your wishboard. i really like the masticore. it seems like every tourney he wins me 1-2 games. he kills peacekeeper and gets rid of bridges from below. we only have 2 cards different in our builds since switching to the wish package(that's me keeping up on the forum and you having; in my opinion, the strongest build since survival left. thanks, btw). i personally swear by the 1 of concordant crossroads. it makes comboing so much easier; not actually faster, but when i do combo it makes that turn take a considerable amount of time less.

[kyller83]

This is the part of the conversation where I argue that Genesis Wave is a very strong back-up Glimpse, and k2thej says you don’t need a back-up Glimpse because you always have it and it always resolves, or something else I struggle to wrap my brain around and therefore withdraw from the conversation.

Further, I would point out that the comparisons above aren't really relevant to the argument for/against Genesis Wave. I play Wave WITH Pact and WITH Regal Force. I’m not cutting those cards to play Wave.

Just Me – go back like 4 pages in this thread and you’ll see this exact conversation. I think Wave is very good, it has been and continues to be quite strong in my testing. That appears to be the minority opinion in this thread, however.

my question is how do you generate the mana for a big gen wave w/o glimpse? i'm not knocking gen wave, but i think it requires more adjustments than just squeezing them into the standard elf combo deck.

[Infinitium]

The thing with Genesis Wave (and most bombs in general) is that it doesn't scale well; you're either have a mana engine in play and have it win the spot or it sits pretty in your hand waiting for your board state to improve. Glimpse, Wish, GSZ and similar cards are already good at low mana availabilities and will still win the same should you power them out in the lategame.

[voltron00x]

All you need is 4-5 big-mana guys (at least 4 Archdruid and possibly supplemental Priest of Titania), and possibly Gaea’s Cradle if you’re so inclined. Wave is weak against decks like Zoo that have a lot of spot removal to kill your mana guys, but otherwise it is really powerful. You can muscle up into a lethal attack on turn 4 off a turn 3 wave very easily. Without Archdruid, the card is still rarely dead, I've been able to Wave for 5-6 on turn 3 just with Heritage, Quirion, and a mana Elf, and those can be pretty spicy.

Basically, the deck runs a ton of untap creatures already, so Wave will usually feed you some more, letting you get a few buys off your Archdruid. If you have, say, a Pact, you can use the second shot of the Druid to pact for Regal Force and usually win from there, or you might Wave into Eternal Witness or Regal Force, both of which can win the game. You might also flip Visionaries and draw into Pact to allow one of those lines of play to open up.

I don’t think the strategies are really “conflicting” that much except that you are forced to play Archdruid, which I don’t think is such a bad thing.

The real question is more Living Wish or a Glimpse back-up. I’ve always preferred a back-up.

[TimEvans]

Hi there! First time poster long time elf player.

I've an elf combo deck together for legacy, its similar to the builds here with all the staples...
I was actually chatting with a freind about a possible wish sb for this deck. At the moment I do win via a big emrakul at end of combo, I don't wish for it. But its pretty consistent to pluck out of the deck off a glimpse (when the combo works it works)

I've been having significant trouble vs D&T's and countertop matchs seem tricky.. as for the rest it mostly seems like decent mu's with the exception being active goblin sharpshooters.

I'd have to agree gwave doesn't fit in this deck at all. I've found the only time gwave is playable is when you expect to have 5-6 mana minimum after a board sweeper to somewhat restablish. This is of course not why you run the card, but if this secondary use is unlikely or impossible 95% of the time gwave sucks for the deck imo.

I've also found this deck list to be incredibly consistent, consistency problems in the deck are always the result of disruption, or your own bad plays.

Further on the Summoner's Pact value, its also very good at completing an alpha strike, you know on those rare games where you actually don't see a glimpse but you have a field of men, searching up a lord can put the force big enough to just end the game. I also use caller of the claw in control matchups, and have found that many times that pact has meant winning after a board sweeper searching up the singleton Caller.

I'm very interested to follow some results with the wish set up though. The biggest problems I have encountered with the singleton emrakul is hes often deep on the bottom of the deck.. this makes the combo take much longer, and you run the risk of actually decking yourself with too many active glimpses, a few times I have been forced to end my turn and discard emrakul to shuffle it back to library. Your gonna win next turn either way.. but when you have to pitch emrakul back they get to untap.

[NihilObstat]

This is the part of the conversation where I argue that Genesis Wave is a very strong back-up Glimpse, and k2thej says you don't need a back-up Glimpse because you always have it and it always resolves, or something else I struggle to wrap my brain around and therefore withdraw from the conversation.

I play Wave WITH Pact and WITH Regal Force.

That's the same reason why I'm still playing Curio. It wins all those game when we don't see any Glimpse or it goes countered. I do see Curio as a stronger option though. Lower mana. Helps us never running out of fuel. Combos the whole deck without even resolving Glimpse.
Still, that's me, and I know I'm only playing in 20-30 players tournaments but still, I have top8ed my last 3 tournies in a row. Many games thanks to Cloudstone and many others to maindeck Mirror entity.

[Eldarion]

That's the same reason why I'm still playing Curio. It wins all those game when we don't see any Glimpse or it goes countered. I do see Curio as a stronger option though. Lower mana. Helps us never running out of fuel. Combos the whole deck without even resolving Glimpse.
Still, that's me, and I know I'm only playing in 20-30 players tournaments but still, I have top8ed my last 3 tournies in a row. Many games thanks to Cloudstone and many others to maindeck Mirror entity.

Could we see your current decklist? I like the Living wish version and have it mostly built, but I'd like to see the other ways to go about building this.

[(nameless one)]

So what's the general consensus with GSZ?

[kyller83]

i like curio more than gen wave and maybe i'll try it after this tourney, but haven't found a need for it yet. i've won quite a few games w/o glimpse. between cradle, crossroads, archdruids, and regal forces it can just happen naturally.

gsz is prolly better left in the elf aggro decks(don't forget to include a dryad arbor)

d&t: i like terastadon a lot in this match up sometimes masticore too.

countertop: leyline of lifeforce; sideboard in any relevant tutor targets.

sharpshooters: archdruids, warcaller, masticore.

btw if you don't know my board:

4 leyline of lifeforce
4 thorn of amethyst
1 gaea's cradle
1 viridian corrupter
1 ezuri
1 masticore
1 regal force
1 terastadon
1 emrakul

[xazzax]

So, my question is, what do you guys side in for enchantress? Just Krosan? I've lost to them lately a couple times, mainly because lucky 2nd turn Humilities... Comments? Ideas?


3/4 Korsan Grip and my secret tech:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=83913&type=card


Single Nullmage.
Good if you play 4 Hivemasters. Just save grip on humility and tutor this stuff.

[k2thej]

well said k2the j.

i'd also like to point out that with 4 pacts and 3 living wishes you are essentially running 8 regal forces.

if you're going to run gen wave you have to build your deck so that it is your end game. it doesn't put cards in your hand to let you keep drawing off of glimpse so you need to make it guarantee a victory. passing the turn after you've reached full combo is extremely dangerous and not the point of this deck at all. if you want to run gen wave i'd suggest multiple concordant crossroads, mirror entities, and maindeck cradles.

k2thej: i couldn't help but notice you cut masticore from your wishboard. i really like the masticore. it seems like every tourney he wins me 1-2 games. he kills peacekeeper and gets rid of bridges from below. we only have 2 cards different in our builds since switching to the wish package(that's me keeping up on the forum and you having; in my opinion, the strongest build since survival left. thanks, btw). i personally swear by the 1 of concordant crossroads. it makes comboing so much easier; not actually faster, but when i do combo it makes that turn take a considerable amount of time less.

Still testing, but Masticore could come back. I haven't ran into any peacekeepers yet though. Wasteland has been pretty cute in certain matchups, but masticore or one of the other creatures might be better. Stilllllll testing.

[kyller83]

well i have a tournament tomorrow so hopefully i'm prepared. i'll try to take notes so i can give a decent report. wish me luck!

[(nameless one)]

Good luck and don't forget secret techs.

[BigBOne]

No one mentioned Weird Harvest?
It is better than Genesis Wave in almost any Situation...just search for some Nettle Sentinel, Symbiots and Emrakul.
Using it without finishing the game is maybe a bit risky if your opponent has somthing like Peacekeeper.

[k2thej]

No one mentioned Weird Harvest?
It is better than Genesis Wave in almost any Situation...just search for some Nettle Sentinel, Symbiots and Emrakul.
Using it without finishing the game is maybe a bit risky if your opponent has somthing like Peacekeeper.

I used to play weird harvest. I took it out and never looked back. It causes way too many combo fizzles, and is essentially just a wincon. By the time you could cast it to help with the combo, you should be comboing anyway. It's really not worth it.

[TossUsToLions]

I used to play weird harvest. I took it out and never looked back. It causes way too many combo fizzles, and is essentially just a wincon. By the time you could cast it to help with the combo, you should be comboing anyway. It's really not worth it.

You don't need to use it when comboing off, though. It IS the combo. If you play Priests and Archdruids (i know most do not play both, but you can definitely fit playsets of both of them in the deck and still have room for your Glimpses, Nettles and Heritage Druids), just Weird Harvest for a Symbiote, Quirion, and Emrakul. That gives you 3 untap activations (or more if you searched for more creatures) to use on your Priest/Archdruid, enough to hardcast Emrakul, then win

[NihilObstat]

Could we see your current decklist? I like the Living wish version and have it mostly built, but I'd like to see the other ways to go about building this.

This is my latest build and they actually opened a new "Elves combo" thread in the page just with this deck, finally!!!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5599&iddeck=40539

It needs 1 Joraga Warcaller and maybe Wirewood hivemaster is too geeky but it has helped in other tournies for the win.
I am still loving loving Grapeshot over any storm wincom, and I believe it's better than Emrakul. It kills early games threads, and you can recycle it with Eternal witness.

I am currently testing GSZ but I can't report yet. Have fun!!!!

[unicoerner]

How polpular is Peecekeeper getting? I lost a match to it just becasue my "combo win" is emrakul. If it gets more polpular we will have to play a real combo win.

[k2thej]

How polpular is Peecekeeper getting? I lost a match to it just becasue my "combo win" is emrakul. If it gets more polpular we will have to play a real combo win.

This is why I think Kyller83 is probably right and including Masticore in the wishboard is a good idea.

[k2thej]

You don't need to use it when comboing off, though. It IS the combo. If you play Priests and Archdruids (i know most do not play both, but you can definitely fit playsets of both of them in the deck and still have room for your Glimpses, Nettles and Heritage Druids), just Weird Harvest for a Symbiote, Quirion, and Emrakul. That gives you 3 untap activations (or more if you searched for more creatures) to use on your Priest/Archdruid, enough to hardcast Emrakul, then win

The reason the other ways to combo are more consistent is that they do not require anything specific on the board to go off, just one elf, any elf, usually needs to be on board. Relying on Priests and Archdruids is way too vulnerable to spot removal, I think you'll find that if you keep as few things on board before you combo as you can then you will combo much more consistantly.

[TimEvans]

I fiind over commiting to the board to be a huge issue you have to learn to avoid. I also found that undercommiting can also lead to issues I find that often times if you don't put out some men and keep the pressure going you almost forget that you could have aggro killed them 3 turns ago.. and you still have no combo. I prefer to keep at least 2 elves in my hand or 1 elf with 1 active symbiote on table.

In my list if I have the 2 elves in hand or 1 elf + a symbiote I will be successful in comboing to full 95/100 times.

In regards to the above information regarding boarding strats for certain mu's I played an online daily even with the deck to a 3-1 finish, I played vs 3x countertop and 1x GB discard? I didn't really see enough of his cards to get a god idea of what he played. 2x games of early combos.

The countertops I played vs were u/w, u/w/g and u/w/g/r I lost to the one with firespouts.

[TossUsToLions]

The reason the other ways to combo are more consistent is that they do not require anything specific on the board to go off, just one elf, any elf, usually needs to be on board. Relying on Priests and Archdruids is way too vulnerable to spot removal, I think you'll find that if you keep as few things on board before you combo as you can then you will combo much more consistantly.

I've never played a "traditional" elf combo list, i've just been working on my own rogue version, so I am confused by your logic here. Don't you need Heritage Druid and Nettle sentinel to combo off the normal way? Doesn't spot removal hurt here too? I understand that there are ways to search for them (like Summoning Pact), but GSZ can search for Priests or Archdruids (or Nettles or Hertitage Druids if you have a Glimpse in hand). It is because of spot removal that I like to have access to the Glimpse route and the Weird Harvest route. If they Swords to Plowshares my Priest, then I can play a Heritage Druid and Nettle Senitel and combo of in the normal way

[k2thej]

I've never played a "traditional" elf combo list, i've just been working on my own rogue version, so I am confused by your logic here. Don't you need Heritage Druid and Nettle sentinel to combo off the normal way? Doesn't spot removal hurt here too? I understand that there are ways to search for them (like Summoning Pact), but GSZ can search for Priests or Archdruids (or Nettles or Hertitage Druids if you have a Glimpse in hand). It is because of spot removal that I like to have access to the Glimpse route and the Weird Harvest route. If they Swords to Plowshares my Priest, then I can play a Heritage Druid and Nettle Senitel and combo of in the normal way

The reason spot removal doesn't hurt the plan that combos entirely from one drops is they are not on the board until you combo. They do not worry about summoning sickness, so you just drop them and combo, and you can almost always work around a single swords or bolt. They spread out the threats, where as with the priest/archdruid plan, they centralize your mana production more which makes it more vulnerable to targeted spells.

You don't really need to have a nettle or a heritage to start comboing. It makes it easier, but I never require them to start. There are so many different combinations of cards that allow for a combo to start, that's what makes the one drop plan so great!

It's basically a swarm tactic that is applied to comboing instead of attacking. Spread out the mana production threats so they can't stop them as easily.

[TossUsToLions]

The reason spot removal doesn't hurt the plan that combos entirely from one drops is they are not on the board until you combo. They do not worry about summoning sickness, so you just drop them and combo, and you can almost always work around a single swords or bolt. They spread out the threats, where as with the priest/archdruid plan, they centralize your mana production more which makes it more vulnerable to targeted spells.

You don't really need to have a nettle or a heritage to start comboing. It makes it easier, but I never require them to start. There are so many different combinations of cards that allow for a combo to start, that's what makes the one drop plan so great!

It's basically a swarm tactic that is applied to comboing instead of attacking. Spread out the mana production threats so they can't stop them as easily.

Alright, thanks, I think I understand it better now. I don't think that you can mix the two strategies as I was trying to do, because it restricts you on the number of one-drops that you can play. Also, going the Glimpse route, I now see how important Birchlore Rangers are

[kyller83]

so i played in a legacy tourney yesterday for a library of alexandria(1st) and a jace(2nd). there were 22 people there. i made top 8 at 3-1-1. my list is posted a couple pages back.

round 1 v. g/w haterater

game 1: he has 3 well timed swords and a i never saw a glimpse. i eventually die to 12/12 knights
game 2: turn 3 emrakul
game 3: he has vial at 3, cannonist, revoker on symbiote, mindcensor, and a mystic that pulled a jitte which is in his hand. i wish for masticore, play it, kill cannonist, wish for corrupter knowing that i'll have to pass the turn and don't need him dropping a kotr for free because the judge just called time in the round. i kill revoker and play corrupter naming vial. i go to untap my nettle sentinels and he says i've already missed my trigger because i declared the corrupter's target. the judge agrees with him and i don't have enough to kill the mindcensor. he straps on a jitte and kills my heritage druids which causes us to draw. i was lawyered, but it was a good lesson.

round 2 v. bant counter top

game 1: i win the roll and have a turn 2 kill in my hand. he plays an island and says "go" :/ i bait him with glimpse to stick a archdruid turn 2 and a warcaller kicked twice on turn 3.
game 2: i board in the leylines and aggro him out over 5 turns.

round 3 v. food chain?!

i'll just say he won in 3. i still think the deck was awful, but he had a force every time he needed it and i punted game 2 after turn 2 kill game 1. i got rattled when he combo'd out emrakul and my math was wrong in his favor. i realized my mistake during game 3, but he rightly won that one.

i recoup and calm down. if i win out i'm in top 8.

round 4 v. combo elves

i have to face a buddy of mine for elimination. bummer. he's playing no pro in his board instead of wish. i tried to tell him.

game 1: he fizzles turn 2 i don't turn 3.
game 2: i turn 2 him.

round 5 v. merfolk w/goyf "'win and in"

game 1: i put him on countertop play a turn 2 crossroads and pay dearly for it with his hasty lords.
games 2 and 3: i have turn 0 leylines both games and his submerges are nearly useless. dreamcrush!

top 8 i played a really good countertop player who was well geared to beat aggro. turn 1 lavamancer plus 2 swords, a few fetches, and 2 forces later and we're on to game 2. game 2 i play turn 0 leyline, he plays turn one explosives. i force him to blow it with 3 dudes and a archdruid then draw 3 lands in a row while he plays 3 5/6 goyfs. blownout! :(

all in all it was a really fun day and a good experience. i wished for everything in my board at least once except for ezuri, but he came in every time i went to the leyline plan. i never used the thorns, but i didn't play against non-creature combo either. i plan on playtesting a lot more legacy with friends since scg memphis is coming up. i'll post any changes.

[Shabbaman]

It kills early games threads, and you can recycle it with Eternal witness.

Grapeshot, killer of threads. Heh. Specifically, elf combo threads :o) I like Grapeshot as well, it's a decent solution for Peacekeeper besides a good win condition. No solution for for Canonist, unfortunately.


This is why I think Kyller83 is probably right and including Masticore in the wishboard is a good idea.

I think we're at a point now where it's safe to say you'd need either storm combo or wishboard. Emrakul alone doesn't get you past Peacekeeper.

[k2thej]

Grapeshot, killer of threads. Heh. Specifically, elf combo threads :o) I like Grapeshot as well, it's a decent solution for Peacekeeper besides a good win condition. No solution for for Canonist, unfortunately.



I think we're at a point now where it's safe to say you'd need either storm combo or wishboard. Emrakul alone doesn't get you past Peacekeeper.

the main annoying combo stoppers are cards like peacekeeper/blazing archon and cards like leyline of sanctity/solitary confinement and the like. Emrakul beats sanctity/solitary and Masticore/tendrills/grapeshot beat peacekeeper/archon. Thus, Emrakul with Masticore in board beats both and the storm kills only beat one. Emrakul/Masticore is the more versatile solution.



Kyller83- great info. You think Ezuri still worth being in the board? I found him being wishable at 10 for the win to be useful sometimes.

[Namida]

After watching a player do very well with Elf Combo, I think my eyes are opened and I'm very interested in learning how to play this deck. I can't wait until I'm able to get the cards.

Kyller83, I don't see your decklist here. Would you mind sharing it? And, if I may ask, why do you play Viridian Corrupter over the Shaman?

[catmint]

Hi,

I am new to the forum and I did not read the whole thread, so please excuse if some of my questions were already discussed.

I've been working on my combo-elves for the last couple of weeks.

I tried a build with Natural Order & Progenitus, but I felt it hurt the combo a lot & became my primary wincon and not the secondary.

The questions, which are currently most interesting for me are:

Which tutor is better in addition/[partly] replacement to summoners pac?!:
- Green Sun's Zenit: Sorcery, but early game combo fix for 2 mana or archdruid for 4 mana for beatdown.
- Chord of calling: Instant, cheap in middle/late game, not limited to green
- Living wish: Sourcery, but flexible in terms of getting utility creature from SB, wincon or cradle

What is the best protection vs. mass destruction?
I experience a lot of ratchet bombs/powder keg, Engenieered explosives next to firespout & fire/ice. This is why I prefer 4 Wrap in Vigor over burrenton, absolute law.

would you prefer xantid sarm or Vexing Shusher vs. counter/top, landstill?

What are your experiences with this questions? How does it depend on your gameplan / wincon or against which decks you are playing (meta)?

Looking forward to the discussion.
Johannes

[Koby]

I am going to start a re-write of the Primer to get this thread rebooted. As I can't anticipate all the questions that people may have, I am asking for some user submitted questions to include. I hope to have this written up in about 2 weeks time. Specifically I will be focusing heavily on mana-bases (only forest, forest+fetch, cradle maindeck) and the 2ndary tutoring (GSZ, Wish, Chord). I think it is safe to assume that most of us run Summoner's Pact already, and it compliments Glimpse of Nature.

If nothing else, getting some of those questions out will stir up some new discussion.

Possibly about SB strategies - Vexing Shusher vs Leyline, Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim, etc...

[k2thej]

Hi,

I am new to the forum and I did not read the whole thread, so please excuse if some of my questions were already discussed.

I've been working on my combo-elves for the last couple of weeks.

I tried a build with Natural Order & Progenitus, but I felt it hurt the combo a lot & became my primary wincon and not the secondary.

The questions, which are currently most interesting for me are:

Which tutor is better in addition/[partly] replacement to summoners pac?!:
- Green Sun's Zenit: Sorcery, but early game combo fix for 2 mana or archdruid for 4 mana for beatdown.
- Chord of calling: Instant, cheap in middle/late game, not limited to green
- Living wish: Sourcery, but flexible in terms of getting utility creature from SB, wincon or cradle

What is the best protection vs. mass destruction?
I experience a lot of ratchet bombs/powder keg, Engenieered explosives next to firespout & fire/ice. This is why I prefer 4 Wrap in Vigor over burrenton, absolute law.

would you prefer xantid sarm or Vexing Shusher vs. counter/top, landstill?

What are your experiences with this questions? How does it depend on your gameplan / wincon or against which decks you are playing (meta)?

Looking forward to the discussion.
Johannes

Hi Catmint, welcome to snazziest thread of them all! I know you said you hadn't read through the whole thing, but I would encourage you to look around a bit as these topics have all been discussed in great length. A quick answer from my is:

-Summoner's Pact and Living Wish are the way to go.
-Leyline is the best card against ctop and counters in general
-The best defense against sweepers is to hold as many cards in hand as you can without slowing your combo down.

Again though, you should read over the thread because there are a lot of differing opinions on these topics.

[Koplinchen]

A small report from our weekly torunament:

1) lands- I played against this guy two times before with my elves and we have realized that his build has basically no way how to fight threats coming from my deck. We spent next 55mins playing Highlander and I got 2:0.

2) ant- My most feared matchup but since last time I have full package of thorns. He goes first and in first two rounds he plays duress twice discarding pact and glimpse. I drew another glimpse and kill him T3 with single Nettle and billion times kicked JWC.
In game two he starts with duress taking my glimps but I topdeck thron and follwing turn I pacted (got to pay 1!) ftw. He has Orrims chant but not enough mana.
It was suprisingly easy. I think this is our worst matchup not just because he is generaly full turn faster but esp. because of O Chant which is just unfair. :-)

3) burn with steppe lynxes- t1 Llanowar - grim; glimpse and just win. He starts game two with grim again but since I am on the draw he has time to use it. Another fetch, gobling guide, griming my elf. I play forest and two sentinels. Fetch, burning one, griming the other, swing with two guides. I play glimpse, quirion, birchlore tapping both for joraga. Pass. He casts marauder, pithing needle naming birchlore (doesnt work) and swing again. He has no cards in hand. I cast glimpse and win.
This game impressed me a lot. Despite burning my first three elves, active lavamancer and some preassure I had still cards in hand and on board - it was simply not enough.

4) instill energy homebrew mono G enchantress - I keep - forest, visionary, quirion, nettle, nettle, llanowar, birchlore. Game took many rounds but I didnt see anything relevant (4glimpse, 4pact, 4insect, 3archdruid, regal, joraga...) and died to his emrakul. First loss! I played enchantress for a long time and this was simply shocking. It featured arbor elf, enchant lands, instill energy untapping his lands with emrakul finish. Such a poor build...
I sided in only Elvish champion and win turn three twice. Good.

It was my fifth tournament so far with score 16-4 which is full 80%! I did play only one round against deck featuring chalice (and lost; the other three comes from Ant), living wish comes handy here I guess. Doesnt it slow the deck? I love explosivness and stability of this construction.

All the best and excuse my poor english. Tom

[kyller83]

namida: here is the decklist i ran for reference and i ran corrupter over shaman because i didn't see a reason not to. it costs the same and has infect.

4 llanowar elves
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
4 elvish visionary
3 birchlore ranger
3 arbor elf
3 elvish archdruid
1 joraga warcaller
1 regal force

4 glimpse of nature
3 living wish
4 summoner’s pact
1 concordant crossroads

6 forest
7 fetches

sideboard:

4 leyline of lifeforce
4 thorn of amethyst
1 emrakul
1 regal force
1 viridian corrupter
1 gaea’s cradle
1 masticore
1 ezuri
1 terastodon

k2thej: i definitely had points in the tourney where i was thinking of ezuri to wish for, but i needed 11 mana to make it lethal and just pushed to 17 for emrakul. i think he's very big after boarding in leylines giving you a 5th lord to aggro with, plus those situations where you semi-combo with regal force and no glimpse. you can wish for him and leave mana up to regen. i don't think i'd cut him.

[Namida]

From the outside looking in, the reason not to run the Corrupter is because it has Infect. At first glance, it seems like Viridian Shaman would actually do damage (contribute to a swarm strategy, take advantage of the life loss your opponent may have incurred themselves etc.) if you had to switch to attacking to win, while Corrupter would need to be gigantic (being the lone Infect creature) to be lethal. Is it that you want a blocker that can weaken your opponent's creatures? Or is it that you often run into situations where you can actually win with Poison Counters faster than regular damage if Corrupter is in play? Or have the differences just normally been so marginal for you that you just think the Corrupter is cool? It might be glaringly obvious here, but I have no experience with the deck, so I have no idea.

[Koby]

I too think Corrupter is an inferior version of Shaman. I can only imagine in a defensive position would the Infect ability become relevant, but in most situations you are in the aggressive position and the damage rather than poison is more important.

[kyller83]

in all honesty i thought it would be cool. i've never killed anyone with poison counters(with this deck), but i've never had it inhibit my strategy either. once during testing i had him out w/ezuri triple activated, but victory was inevitable.

[PhantomOtter]

Hi,

I am new to the forum and I did not read the whole thread, so please excuse if some of my questions were already discussed.

I've been working on my combo-elves for the last couple of weeks.

I tried a build with Natural Order & Progenitus, but I felt it hurt the combo a lot & became my primary wincon and not the secondary.

The questions, which are currently most interesting for me are:

Which tutor is better in addition/[partly] replacement to summoners pac?!:
- Green Sun's Zenit: Sorcery, but early game combo fix for 2 mana or archdruid for 4 mana for beatdown.
- Chord of calling: Instant, cheap in middle/late game, not limited to green
- Living wish: Sourcery, but flexible in terms of getting utility creature from SB, wincon or cradle

What is the best protection vs. mass destruction?
I experience a lot of ratchet bombs/powder keg, Engenieered explosives next to firespout & fire/ice. This is why I prefer 4 Wrap in Vigor over burrenton, absolute law.

would you prefer xantid sarm or Vexing Shusher vs. counter/top, landstill?

What are your experiences with this questions? How does it depend on your gameplan / wincon or against which decks you are playing (meta)?

Looking forward to the discussion.
Johannes

The best defense against board sweepers in my opinion is Caller Of The Claw.
You do your combo the best you can then after you bait them into sweeping you drop that bomb!!!

[Namida]

in all honesty i thought it would be cool. i've never killed anyone with poison counters(with this deck), but i've never had it inhibit my strategy either. once during testing i had him out w/ezuri triple activated, but victory was inevitable.

I understand now. The thought I'm having is that the scenarios where you can't win because of Corrupter's inability to deal damage are more likely to happen than any benefit Corrupter would give from having infect. Even if you've never had it inhibit you, the theory here that it is able to inhibit you in ways that you can circumvent entirely by playing the Shaman in its place should be enough to warrant changing back to the Shaman, in my opinion. Given that you have the experience with the deck and I don't, I might seem like I'm nitpicking a little bit, but I certainly don't want to read your next report to find that you lost any games because you could only deal like 19 damage and 7 poison counters or anything like that.

(Though I understand where you're coming from--I was sorely hoping that you'd be able to name a benefit to Corrupter so I'd have an excuse to play it.)

[catmint]

Thank you K2thej and PhantomOtter


.
-Leyline is the best card against ctop and counters in general.
...but a competent player just needs to counter glimpse of nature, which is not protected by the leyline. ?!


Again though, you should read over the thread because there are a lot of differing opinions on these topics.
I read a lot, but it is really very complex to follow the different sub-topics. Especially because there is not "search thread" functions. It would be nice to have some sub-threads.

Do you think Summoners pact is much superior over Green Sun's Zenit? When we combo off I think the 1 mana more does not make a difference. But if I have 4 elves in play and only the tutor in the hand, I might want to go for an elf lord and attack next round. This is much easier if I don't have to pay the 4 mana.


The best defense against board sweepers in my opinion is Caller Of The Claw.
You do your combo the best you can then after you bait them into sweeping you drop that bomb!!!
I also thougth about it. Since we only want to play 1-2 i guess, it is important to tutor for it. For this Chord of calling would be better than Zenit (instant) and Summoners pact (4 mana in upkeep without elves is tough).

if you face a turn 2 ethersworn canonist, you just concede?. I thougth about spot removal in SB for Living wish, but duplicant or triskelion where the best (expensive) ideas I could come up with. Probably too fancy to think that spot removal is necessary if we have 6-8 mana.

[k2thej]

Thank you K2thej and PhantomOtter


...but a competent player just needs to counter glimpse of nature, which is not protected by the leyline. ?!


I read a lot, but it is really very complex to follow the different sub-topics. Especially because there is not "search thread" functions. It would be nice to have some sub-threads.

Do you think Summoners pact is much superior over Green Sun's Zenit? When we combo off I think the 1 mana more does not make a difference. But if I have 4 elves in play and only the tutor in the hand, I might want to go for an elf lord and attack next round. This is much easier if I don't have to pay the 4 mana.
.

The leylines are swapped in for glimpse. You also swap out pact and wish for a bunch of creatures. You play an uncounterable aggro deck against top. They can't out aggro you.

The one mana for zenith makes all the difference in the world when starting the combo, and if you reach the point in the combo where mana doesn't matter, you usually don't need to tutor anyway. Thus, summoner's pact is def the right choice. The general point I make is the you don't pact until you combo, excpet in some aggro situations, so there really is no downside to pact.

[catmint]

The leylines are swapped in for glimpse. You also swap out pact and wish for a bunch of creatures. You play an uncounterable aggro deck against top. They can't out aggro you.

The one mana for zenith makes all the difference in the world when starting the combo, and if you reach the point in the combo where mana doesn't matter, you usually don't need to tutor anyway. Thus, summoner's pact is def the right choice. The general point I make is the you don't pact until you combo, excpet in some aggro situations, so there really is no downside to pact.

Interesting plan. I checked your decklist and that makes totally sense. Looking forward to testing it.

One thing does not quite make sense yet:
If I understand correctly your plan vs. mass removal is to hold most card back until you win the same turn anyway (helps vs. firespout,....)
but if a ratchet bomb or engineered explosivs is on the board that plan does not help. Anyway, the beauty of playing what you have (4-6 elves) without comboing off is that you can play warcaller/archdruid next turn and swing for a good clock .

Another factor is that if you turn your deck in an aggro deck (vs. landstill/counter-top), you want to get many evles fast on the board and then you would be very vulnerable to firespout or trinket-mage for engeneered explosives, which is very easy for thos decks to establish.

The best answer to both of those problems would be caller of the claw I think. Since you dont have tutors in your aggro version & living wish is a sorcery, you would to run 3-4 in an aggro version of the deck.

what do you think about that?

[catmint]

The one mana for zenith makes all the difference in the world when starting the combo, and if you reach the point in the combo where mana doesn't matter, you usually don't need to tutor anyway. Thus, summoner's pact is def the right choice. The general point I make is the you don't pact until you combo, excpet in some aggro situations, so there really is no downside to pact.

I just realised it is not only the 1 mana why pact is better than zenit. If you zenit you dont draw a card for glimpse,...

[Just me]

I understand now. The thought I'm having is that the scenarios where you can't win because of Corrupter's inability to deal damage are more likely to happen than any benefit Corrupter would give from having infect. Even if you've never had it inhibit you, the theory here that it is able to inhibit you in ways that you can circumvent entirely by playing the Shaman in its place should be enough to warrant changing back to the Shaman, in my opinion. Given that you have the experience with the deck and I don't, I might seem like I'm nitpicking a little bit, but I certainly don't want to read your next report to find that you lost any games because you could only deal like 19 damage and 7 poison counters or anything like that.

(Though I understand where you're coming from--I was sorely hoping that you'd be able to name a benefit to Corrupter so I'd have an excuse to play it.)

There is a fringe reason to play Corrupter; stuff like (infi) lifegain, Worship, etc. Poison as alternate wincondition helps in these (weird) situations. But these might be more likely as not winning due to Poison o the card. That will also happen rarely. And 1 swing can be enough with Ezuri or Warcaller.

[PhantomOtter]

Interesting plan. I checked your decklist and that makes totally sense. Looking forward to testing it.

One thing does not quite make sense yet:
If I understand correctly your plan vs. mass removal is to hold most card back until you win the same turn anyway (helps vs. firespout,....)
but if a ratchet bomb or engineered explosivs is on the board that plan does not help. Anyway, the beauty of playing what you have (4-6 elves) without comboing off is that you can play warcaller/archdruid next turn and swing for a good clock .

Another factor is that if you turn your deck in an aggro deck (vs. landstill/counter-top), you want to get many evles fast on the board and then you would be very vulnerable to firespout or trinket-mage for engeneered explosives, which is very easy for thos decks to establish.

The best answer to both of those problems would be caller of the claw I think. Since you dont have tutors in your aggro version & living wish is a sorcery, you would to run 3-4 in an aggro version of the deck.

what do you think about that?

I would say 3 Caller Of The Claw.

What would anyone think about Brass Herald?

Also, Artificial Evolution against Goblins and Merfolk. I tried it casual before and hacking a Lord Of Atlantis naming elves is histeriacl!

[k2thej]

I have played with both caller of the claw and fecundity and in my experience they really don't work. Instead of diluting the deck to give a shoddy answer to a potential sweeper, I found it much more effective to accept some dudes dying, and then relying on a high powered deck to re-establish itself, which is what I designed my build to do. I think you will find that in testing that my build can recover very well from sweepers without any callers/escorts/fecundity etc.

I tested this a LOT, more than any other sideboard card actually since it was my biggest challenge in tournaments, and I found that this was the most effective answer. It maximizes the chances to your opponent them before they can sweep, while simultaneously maximizing the decks potential to recover from sweepers with its original game plan.

[catmint]

I tested this a LOT, more than any other sideboard card actually since it was my biggest challenge in tournaments, and I found that this was the most effective answer. It maximizes the chances to your opponent them before they can sweep, while simultaneously maximizing the decks potential to recover from sweepers with its original game plan.

Sorry i just don't get that sentence. :)
The most effective answer is not to care about sweepers but rely on the decks ability to either execute combo or aggro well enough?

Another question i have.
If you play the aggro version you side in 1 renegade leader, 1 viridian shaman and you have 1 warcaller in the main deck.
But you side out the tutors, so they appear to be pretty random. Did you never have the problem of not getting the shaman when you need it.

Did you consider cloudstone curio as "5th glimpse (with visionary)" in the main deck?

[k2thej]

You are correct about your interpretation of my sentence. You can race sweepers or you can recover from them.

You side out the tutors to just make your creature count as high as you can. You want your entire deck to be uncounterable. There is enough synergy between the cards that you can aggro them without tutors. If you want to leave in a few you can, but they will most likely counter them if they figure out that you sided out glimpse since they can't counter anything else.

I don't run curio. I don't like it. Others do, but this debate has happened on previous pages.

[PhantomOtter]

You do leave in pact when playing against counter top right?

I would agree with maybe only running 1 or 2 Callers but they do make nice tech if you dont run a wish build.
I have found that game 2 they can come in handy. If you can burn them once with it and go to game 3 you will have them wasting or holding sweepers back and allowing yourself to either aggro or recover fairly easy.

[Shabbaman]

the main annoying combo stoppers are cards like peacekeeper/blazing archon and cards like leyline of sanctity/solitary confinement and the like. Emrakul beats sanctity/solitary and Masticore/tendrills/grapeshot beat peacekeeper/archon. Thus, Emrakul with Masticore in board beats both and the storm kills only beat one. Emrakul/Masticore is the more versatile solution.

I'm not really concerned with either artifacts or enchantments you'd be facing, as there are several green creatures that can solve that. This is relevant because either Pact or GSZ (and arguably even Natural Order, though I'm not sure I'd want to board in NO, Progenitus plus an answer) could fetch these answers.The point I made is that you can't run Emrakul MD without either wish or storm combo, as there's no tutorable answer. Living Wish can fetch you anything you might need, that's for sure. With your list you'd have to get two wishes mid-combo, because you have Emrakul in your SB as well. I'm not sure how often that turns out for you (as a matter of fact, it doesn't seem unlikely at all), but in that case I'd consider that other Eldrazi instead of Masticore.

[k2thej]

I'm not really concerned with either artifacts or enchantments you'd be facing, as there are several green creatures that can solve that. This is relevant because either Pact or GSZ (and arguably even Natural Order, though I'm not sure I'd want to board in NO, Progenitus plus an answer) could fetch these answers.The point I made is that you can't run Emrakul MD without either wish or storm combo, as there's no tutorable answer. Living Wish can fetch you anything you might need, that's for sure. With your list you'd have to get two wishes mid-combo, because you have Emrakul in your SB as well. I'm not sure how often that turns out for you (as a matter of fact, it doesn't seem unlikely at all), but in that case I'd consider that other Eldrazi instead of Masticore.

Which threats, specifically, are you thinking about in this example? If you are worried about multiple permanents, terrastodon can take care of that.

[Shabbaman]

The leyline and confinement you mentioned, and I'd count Canonist as an artifact as well. But anyway, what I wrote (and more to the point: what you've been pointing out all along about Living Wish) has got me thinking: getting two Wishes out of the deck shouldn't be a problem as I haven't seen getting that single storm spell as a problem before. I still have a playset of Living Wish anyway :)

[NihilObstat]

You are correct about your interpretation of my sentence. You can race sweepers or you can recover from them.

You side out the tutors to just make your creature count as high as you can. You want your entire deck to be uncounterable. There is enough synergy between the cards that you can aggro them without tutors. If you want to leave in a few you can, but they will most likely counter them if they figure out that you sided out glimpse since they can't counter anything else.

I tested your idea, but I hated the games where I didn't get Leyline, mulled and didn't appear. It pretty much means GG.

Has your list changed lately? Masticore, and Terastodon in the side?

[k2thej]

I tested your idea, but I hated the games where I didn't get Leyline, mulled and didn't appear. It pretty much means GG.

Has your list changed lately? Masticore, and Terastodon in the side?

I hate those games too. Thankfully, they don't happen often.

Masticore and Terastodon are both in the side. The current change I am testing is 3 thorns and a glowrider instead of 4 thorns so one is wishable. Not sure about it though. Still testing.

[magicplaya10]

Hey guys, been out of magic for a while and I decided to start back up playing this deck again. I really love elf combo, and I was one of the people who played this deck at the beginning of this thread. Not saying I am a pro at it or anything, I know a lot has changed. I am glad to see the thread has flourished so much. I really like the Leyline in the board, and the caller of the claw against firespout and such. I think boarding into more lords makes it move much easier as well, at least against other blue decks. They can't stop em all.

Also, I know a probably dumb question, but is everyone using the wish varient now? How is that working for you? I guess I could just test it as well.

Thanks again!

[catmint]

I hate those games too. Thankfully, they don't happen often.

Masticore and Terastodon are both in the side. The current change I am testing is 3 thorns and a glowrider instead of 4 thorns so one is wishable. Not sure about it though. Still testing.

in which spot would you whish for a glowrider? If you don't combo off & you have ggggw & you rather don't play regal force next turn or renegade leader?

Turning your deck in an uncounterable aggro deck is nice vs. all decks that counter, but you have to sacrifice a lot of sideboard cards. No gy hate, no artifact/enchanment removal, no protection vs. mass removal. You also sacrifice sideboard spots, because of living whish and the regal force, emrakul, cradle you want to tutor for.
...just wondering if that is really optimal. A lot of testing will show...
what is the meta you are playing in?

[magicplaya10]

My meta is the same as usual. I have merfolk zoo cb tes etc. I live in Washington state so it's very unpredictable like usual. I understand the whole leyline thing in this deck. But in the end we have to choose to fight one battle or the other. I do like caller of the claw in the board but it doesn't justify being there. I believe that running leylines is a great plan against those decks. We can out aggro almost every deck because our engine is so efficient. Also living wish is pretty good in the deck and I rly like it. My old tech against board sweepers was fecundity. It worked really well. But that was also when I maindeckes leylines..

[k2thej]

in which spot would you whish for a glowrider? If you don't combo off & you have ggggw & you rather don't play regal force next turn or renegade leader?

Turning your deck in an uncounterable aggro deck is nice vs. all decks that counter, but you have to sacrifice a lot of sideboard cards. No gy hate, no artifact/enchanment removal, no protection vs. mass removal. You also sacrifice sideboard spots, because of living whish and the regal force, emrakul, cradle you want to tutor for.
...just wondering if that is really optimal. A lot of testing will show...
what is the meta you are playing in?

Ya I was just testing it to see if it would be relevant against combo g1. Turns out it's not really helpful, was worth a shot though.

The Leylines are an incredible use of sb spots. I have played many GY decks in tournaments and after boarding in crypts when I had them, I never drew them and still won every time. We are faster than GY decks and we really do not need the hate at all. The artifact removal is shaman and artifact/enchantment removal is terastodon.

See above for the discussion against mass removal.

I try to design decks for the US meta in general, not to be specific to a region. I think this makes the deck better overall and then if you think you will see more of an archetype at a given tournament you can tweak it before you show up. I think for general discussion of the deck, though, a pulled back approach from the meta is best.

[PhantomOtter]

Hey all,

I have a local legacy tournament tonight. I will be running a non wish elf combo deck.
I will post the deck list with report (win or lose).

Any tips for Side Board to make it aggro against countertop would be most helpful!

[k2thej]

Hey all,

I have a local legacy tournament tonight. I will be running a non wish elf combo deck.
I will post the deck list with report (win or lose).

Any tips for Side Board to make it aggro against countertop would be most helpful!

As we have said above, against top board in leylines and board out glimpses. Board in any lords for pacts or one drops that aren't great in aggro (like birchlore).

[PhantomOtter]

Thanks for the advice!

Current Side Board:

3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Caller of The Claw
2 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman
2 Joraga Warcaller
2 Elvish Champion

Leylines go in against countertop or counter
Thorn for combo.
Warcaller goes in for aggro
Champion goes in for aggro

How does that sound?

[Koby]

I have a local legacy tournament tonight. I will be running a non wish elf combo deck.
I will post the deck list with report (win or lose).

Any tips for Side Board to make it aggro against countertop would be most helpful!

I would recommend that if your deck is built w/o Living Wish to at least include one of either in the maindeck: Viridian Shaman or Viridian Zealot. Dealing with non-creature permanents in the maindeck is really useful and helps you to beat some off-beat deck (Enchantress, Affinity, etc). I prefer Viridian Shaman, as it actually seems to be useful now with all the new artifact decks, but it all depends on your metagame.

I diverge from k2thej's Leyline plan. I've tried it before in tournaments, and while it has merit against a host of decks, it means removing the best part of your deck against Counterbalance, which is already bringing in sweepers. I prefer Vexing Shusher as it allows you to maintain the Glimpse engine. It functions identically to Leyline, however it taxes your spells slightly. To compliment it, I run 3-4 Krosan Grip to handle assorted troublesome permanents (Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Ethersworn Canonist, etc)

One time, many moons ago, I used Vexing Shusher to go off turn 2 against an active Counterbalance, paying the extra mana each time, and resulted in drawing my deck. Unfortunately I took out the Grapeshot, and ended up decking myself. Oops!!

[k2thej]

Warcaller and champion should both go in against top as well to complement the leylines. Also, if you go leyline you should absolutely have 4 leylines in the board.

[PhantomOtter]

If I move Leyline to 4 what should come out???

Should I try terastadon at all?

[k2thej]

If I move Leyline to 4 what should come out???

Should I try terastadon at all?

I wouldn't play terastodon if you aren't playing wish. With 2 shamans and 2 grips you should be fine. I would probably go to 1 warcaller for the 4th leyline, assuming you have 3 other lords MD.

[PhantomOtter]

Sounds great. Will give it a shot!

[k2thej]

Update to my list:

After more testing I have taken Ezuri out of the board in favor of another warcaller

Resons:
-If you have 5 mana, you can boost your guys with a wish, Ezuri takes 10
-If you had the ten for ezuri, you can give you guys +4/+4 anyway, which is more than Ezuri, and since you have so many guys in play the trample is irrelevant
-The most important point to the combo is that if you have a wish in hand and no guys, you can play warcaller for 3 (2 for wish, 1 for him unkicked) in order to continue the combo

I found this to be much more favorable in testing, and I really, really like the change.

[PhantomOtter]

Went 3-1-0 lastnight with my take on Combo Elves. Here is the list:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony

13 Forest
1 Pendelhaven

SIDEBOARD
2 Jorara Warcaller
1 Nature's Claim
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Viridian Shaman
1 Fauna Shaman
* Found out that when you order cards online and they say that they will be delivered on the 16th, they really mean that they will be delivered on the 18th*

ROUNDS

Round 1 vs 43 Lands (I think)

Game 1: Get Tendrils Kill fairly early.
Game 2: No Sideboard. He gets Chalice of The Void at 1 and I just can't aggro enough. He gets the win.
Game 3: Take out glimpse and side in aggro the best that I can and get the win.
1-0-0

Round 2 vs Combo/Aggro Elves

Game 1: He combos first and gets the win.
Game 2: Nothing to really side in here. No way I can out aggro him. My combo falls short and he wins again.
His deck was very good and very consistent. Not to mention he was a very good player!
1-1-0

Round 3 vs Goblins

Game 1: He mulls to 6 and doesn't seem to draw anything. He scoops.
Game 2: No Sideboard. End up getting an aggro win with the help of my friends Elvish Archdruid and Elvish Archdruid!
2-1-0

Round 4 vs Enchantress

Game 1: This game was one of the most exciting games that I have had the honor to play. I get him down to 1 with 17 or so elves in play. Then he plays a Moat!!!!! Raced to find Emrakul but he gets the win!
Game 2: Take out Tendrils and Birchlore for Thorns and Warcaller. Get a turn 2 Thorn which buys me enough time to combo out Emrakul!
Game 3: Had a wonderful starting hand that led to a turn 3 combo win!!!

All and all I think that the deck did wonderful! Would like to have my full Sideboard. I do not feel bad about loss to the Elf deck because it really is a thing of beauty and he is a really great player. Was very surprised on how well it can change into aggro. Think that I will drop 1 Ranger for a maindecked Viridian Shaman. Someone suggested that but I didn't listen and I do believe since I do not run wish that having 1 maindecked could have made a difference.

PS: I placed 4th!

[AznSeal]

So is wish elves more consistent or pure combo turned aggro post board better.

[catmint]

I played against a friend yesterday who plays u/r landstill and is a competent player.
He plays
4 FoW
3 Spellpierce
3 counterspell
3 ligthning bolt
4 fire/ice
3 ratchet bomb
..and can side in 2 firespout.

I think against such a deck we have a very bad matchup. I won the first game, but got really lucky with top decking to combo-off surprsingly.

It is obvously hard to combo-off because he can counter glimpse & get rid of elves early, but if you side to play an aggro version the chances to beat him down are still very small. Mishra is a strong defense card and fire/ice, firespout & ratchet bomb are so powerful vs. elves

Do we just accept to have a bad matchup against this deck?
Your thougts?

[zpikduM]

If paranoid about counterspells, bring in Leyline. Bring in Amethyst to deal with the burn and the counter spells. Every deck in legacy is really mana tight, and Landstill is not an exception.

[k2thej]

So is wish elves more consistent or pure combo turned aggro post board better.

In all my testing, wish elves is absolutely more consistent. I play wish elves with leylines to go aggro post board. So I guess the answer to your question would be both haha.


As for the comments on the landstill matchup, I agree that it is a tough one. I still think going aggro is the best bet, and trying to hold many elves in hand until some lords are out and you can't be firespouted. I do agree this isn't an amazing plan though, it is a tough matchup.

The way I have played landstill in tournaments with reasonable success in the past is comboing game 1 (which you can usually do), going aggro game two with leylines, and then switching back to the usual MD and try to combo game 3. If they are a good player they tend to board out all their counters after they know you are playing leylines, which frees up your combo.

[catmint]

How often does it happen to you that you try to combo off in turn 2 (or when you know it is a little bit risky) commiting yourself using pact, and you draw bad and/or get somehow disrupted sot it does not work?

[k2thej]

How often does it happen to you that you try to combo off in turn 2 (or when you know it is a little bit risky) commiting yourself using pact, and you draw bad and/or get somehow disrupted sot it does not work?

I go for turn two combos a LOT. Almost every time I think there is a chance. It really comes down to how well you can play the deck. If you play it right, you shouldn't run in to bad draws. Good players assume they are going to draw lands and plan their combos around this (getting as much card advantage per creature played as possible).

It depends on the build. I designed my build to complement my aggressive comboing style. I designed it to make as many successful combos as possible at the expense of addressing some potential threats (I don't have any artifact enchantment destruction MD, but I do have wish)

As for the exact percentage of times, I think when I go for combos on turn 2, I go off around 75% of the time. The reason I like going for it on turn two is because even if you do fizzle (which shouldn't happen often if you are smart about it) you still have enough guys to have an insane clock going.

As for pact, if you think using pact will give you a more than 50% chance of going off, do it. It usually works out, and if it doesn't you will surely have enough guys to pay it. It is really a matter of being able to make the best possible choices on who to play and who to summon at every single step in the combo. I used to lose to pact fairly often, now I never do. It's just a matter of practice.

[Koby]

I'm with k2thej on Summoner's Pact. Don't cast it if you suspect removal on your mana producer. The safest time to cast it is if you control 4 Forest, but if I think that I may be able to pull off Emrakul on the same turn, I just rocket-dog into the combo portion. Practice games will let you figure when you can and when you shouldn't cast Summoner's Pact.

BTW, If the spell is countered, you will not have to pay the upkeep cost, it requires the spell to resolve.

[NihilObstat]

I'm with k2thej on Summoner's Pact.
BTW, If the spell is countered, you will not have to pay the upkeep cost, it requires the spell to resolve.

No one counters Pact, the counter the creature you look for and then screw you up ^^


I agree with k2thej, I used to lose to Pact many times, but after 5 months of playing elves NON-stop, I never do anymore. This deck really needs to be learned all throughout. I considered myself to be really good at it 1 year ago, but back then I never won in tournaments, but right now I keep top8ing all the time.

I just came from a tiny weekly tournies, and I wen 4-0. Matchups:
-Canadian. I used to consider it a bad pairing, but I realized that an uncountered glimpse setting 5 elves early in the game is good enough to win. Just play, no fear. Also lords help a lot. 2-0
-Dreadstill. He plays everything but FOW, so that helps. Tough anyway, 2-1.
-Punishing fire ZOO. I comboed after seeing 4 elves die to removal. Game 2, he sets up a doble Grove of the Burnwillows, with 2 Noble Hierarch and 1 Punishing fire. I keep playing elves, so he doesn't have spare mana to play threads, and after counting 9 or 10 elves in my grave, I luckily combo out. 2-0
-LED Dredge. He was a little unlucky and was always 1 creature, or 1 Bridge away from winning. 2-0


K2thej, I agree with all that you say, but I would like you to post some reports so that we see that your list works all that well.


I'm running the same list I used to, but I have replaced Chord of calling with Green sun's zenith, and have taken out Burrenton forge-tender and Yixlid jailer from the side, and out also Wirewood hivemaster, and Mirror entity from MD for more 1 drop elves.

[k2thej]

No one counters Pact, the counter the creature you look for and then screw you up ^^

K2thej, I agree with all that you say, but I would like you to post some reports so that we see that your list works all that well.
.

Unfortunately, since I am studying in Scotland for the semester, my most recent tournament was the Star City Games Open in MA in November =(. I was one TURN away from top 8-ing, but these things happen. The report was posted in the thread in November. This was before I was playing the wish build, and I return to the states hopefully on May 25th, just in time to make Grand Prix Providence!

[Namida]

Have you looked into any places where they might hold Legacy events in Scotland? I'm studying in Japan for the semester so I know what you mean, but everyone knows that there are people here who play Legacy, so I was able to track down a store.

[k2thej]

Have you looked into any places where they might hold Legacy events in Scotland? I'm studying in Japan for the semester so I know what you mean, but everyone knows that there are people here who play Legacy, so I was able to track down a store.

I'm at St. Andrews so there is unfortunately no store in the town, and travel to the nearest city with a store is not cheap. I can wait though.

Also- everyone should take a look at the last few pages of the Ichorid thread. They are talking about how to play against elves and they have NO idea what they are doing haha.

[PhantomOtter]

So is wish elves more consistent or pure combo turned aggro post board better.

Im not sold on either choice being better that the other. Wish type has its pros and cons as does Combo. I can see where one might have a better chance vs certain decks. I think that it comes down to what you personaly want to run. There are a few things that they both have in common. They both are great decks, early, mid and late game. They both can make full use out of their sideboards, although one has access to theirs game 1, but can also be countered. Like I said, it really just comes down to what you want to play. I would recomend trying both versions and try to make any change you want to. This deck type isnt really a "must net deck" type of deck.

[k2thej]

Im not sold on either choice being better that the other. Wish type has its pros and cons as does Combo. I can see where one might have a better chance vs certain decks. I think that it comes down to what you personaly want to run. There are a few things that they both have in common. They both are great decks, early, mid and late game. They both can make full use out of their sideboards, although one has access to theirs game 1, but can also be countered. Like I said, it really just comes down to what you want to play. I would recomend trying both versions and try to make any change you want to. This deck type isnt really a "must net deck" type of deck.

I always bring this up, but have never had an adequate response. If they let you resolve glimpse and let you combo, they don't have any counters. They will counter glimpse, worrying about wish being countered is irrelevant.

I used to play the no wish version, but I'd like to hear people's points against the wish version. What benefits are there to not running wish?

[PhantomOtter]

It would really just depend on who you are playing. If they know you use wish and have board sweepers it would wreck you but the same could be said about non wish decks. This is were it gets hard to define advantage vs disadvantage. A countered glimpse, and countered wish? It is so hard to tell what people would do. One of the only downfalls to the wish deck is the counter threat, but come on, we have discused this. The only advantage right off hand would be the access to your sideboard. I honestly think that it should be left up to the individual player. The best thing that I could think of to do would be to study your local meta. Adjust accordingly. If the dont play alot of counter try wish. If they play alot of counter try the regular combo. It is hard for me to say one is better than the other when they are both so good!

[k2thej]

It would really just depend on who you are playing. If they know you use wish and have board sweepers it would wreck you but the same could be said about non wish decks. This is were it gets hard to define advantage vs disadvantage. A countered glimpse, and countered wish? It is so hard to tell what people would do. One of the only downfalls to the wish deck is the counter threat, but come on, we have discused this. The only advantage right off hand would be the access to your sideboard. I honestly think that it should be left up to the individual player. The best thing that I could think of to do would be to study your local meta. Adjust accordingly. If the dont play alot of counter try wish. If they play alot of counter try the regular combo. It is hard for me to say one is better than the other when they are both so good!

While I appreciate the general sentiment by most people to play whatever you want, since the purpose of this thread is to make the deck as good as possible, we should try to figure out which is better. I do not think it is a matter of opinion, I think the wish build is strictly better, and here is why:

1) A countered glimpse hurts both builds, so this is nothing we should be comparing since it is the same in both cases

2) If they do counter glimpse and prevent you from comboing, wish can get you anything you need to make your non-combo game better

3) Again, they are not going to save a counter until your wincon. They are never going to wait until you load up the field with 20 dudes and then counter the wish that would bring out emrakul just so they can die next turn. You might say they will counter the wish so they can sweep, but they would have swept mid combo.

4) Emrakul is never a dead card in your hand.

5) You have 3 cards that give you access to cradle if you need mana, Emrakul if you can afford it, and everything helpful in between. You minimize dead cards.

I do not think it is hard to define advantage vs disadvantage in this case. I am convinced that the wish build is strictly better than the non wish build, and I see no reason to not play wish.


***this is not an attack on PhantomOtter, K2thej <3's PhantomOtter

[AznSeal]

I tested wish all yesterday and I love it. From my results, Its better than pure monogram combo. Now
I'm testing between wish and combo that splashes black for thoughtsieze or white for orim chant

[catmint]

K2, how do you usually play merfolk in game2?
i feel that merfolk kings, jitte and speed with vial hurts our ability to out aggro our opponent.
would you still go for combo vs. merfolk?

[k2thej]

K2, how do you usually play merfolk in game2?
i feel that merfolk kings, jitte and speed with vial hurts our ability to out aggro our opponent.
would you still go for combo vs. merfolk?

I've done both but I usually don't sb anything and just combo through them. Our combo clock is faster than their aggro clock, even through counters.

[PhantomOtter]

Ok. The only way to get this done the right way is to post your most recent deck list. Then I will post my Combo version and we will get the most optimal build for each deck. Then we can start the play testing and post some results. That way we can see ways to improve them. Then we can all look at the results and figure out the better build for Elves.

My take on Combo Elves:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony

12 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Gaea's Cradle

SIDEBOARD
2 Jorara Warcaller
2 Krosan Grip
2 Elvish Champion
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Viridian Shaman

[k2thej]

There are many semantics involved in optimizing each type (wish/non wish) that are discussed throughout the thread. I do not think we need to optimize each to determine if it is a good idea to go for one or the other, since the optimization of each would be the same, and the only difference would be taking out cradle, emrakul, and one elf for the 3 wishes.

I would like someone to directly address my previous post on this page about why the wish build is strictly better and make a case for the combo build. If no one can, shouldn't living wish be a staple in elves combo?

[catmint]

There are many semantics involved in optimizing each type (wish/non wish) that are discussed throughout the thread. I do not think we need to optimize each to determine if it is a good idea to go for one or the other, since the optimization of each would be the same, and the only difference would be taking out cradle, emrakul, and one elf for the 3 wishes.

I would like someone to directly address my previous post on this page about why the wish build is strictly better and make a case for the combo build. If no one can, shouldn't living wish be a staple in elves combo?

..agree.
I can't think of any arguments for not playing wish. ... just much more flexible!

[catmint]

Another question for me (as a rather new evle player) is mulligan.

I play 13 forest/fetches and no elvish spirit guide.
sometimes i take a hand where I have not a good feeling, because it happened to me frequently that I have to take mulligan to 3-4, because no land shows up.

what are your guidelines for taking mulligan (depending on if you want to go combo or aggro).
Would be very nice if you post some example hands.

Fore example I had a match 2nd game vs. counter/top i decided to go for aggro with leylines for protection.
My hand is: land, land, leyline, leyline, llanowar, terastodon, wirewood
.. i cannot really put pressure and if I dont topdeck my chances are not good.

or 1st game vs. merfolk
land, land, land, heritage, quirion, quiron, living whish
far away from combo, but if you want to go aggro you very slow.


...would love to "sweat" an experienced elve-player via teamviewer or something to learn about their thinking process/decision making
would someone want to help? :)

[PhantomOtter]

k2thej

Would like to see your current deck list so I can try it out. Hard for me to judge fairly without atleast play testing both.

[k2thej]

k2thej

Would like to see your current deck list so I can try it out. Hard for me to judge fairly without atleast play testing both.


4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

[Koplinchen]

k2thej, I am playing elves for some time using your builds and I ll finaly try now the wish build. (btw-non wish build has more space for sidecards)

I read this forum quite regulary and I didnt understand your arguments against sweepers. I personaly think that fecundity is amazing. Absolutely! At number of two it has been serving me very well. If you go aggro plan in your second game you want to play as many elves as you can, right? than EE can wreck your plan. Today i played against my friend with CotV and Wrath of God, EE and so on control. Leyline+fecundity0= gg. Resolved fecundity means you almost cant loose aginst certain decks...

What do you do with this: llanowar, llanowar, quirion, visionary, nettle, nettle, forest. Would you keep it? And if yes would you try to aggro your opp round one?
Any mull rules? This deck doesnt like mulligans...

Thank you very mcuh.

Tom

[k2thej]

k2thej, I am playing elves for some time using your builds and I ll finaly try now the wish build. (btw-non wish build has more space for sidecards)

I read this forum quite regulary and I didnt understand your arguments against sweepers. I personaly think that fecundity is amazing. Absolutely! At number of two it has been serving me very well. If you go aggro plan in your second game you want to play as many elves as you can, right? than EE can wreck your plan. Today i played against my friend with CotV and Wrath of God, EE and so on control. Leyline+fecundity0= gg. Resolved fecundity means you almost cant loose aginst certain decks...

What do you do with this: llanowar, llanowar, quirion, visionary, nettle, nettle, forest. Would you keep it? And if yes would you try to aggro your opp round one?
Any mull rules? This deck doesnt like mulligans...

Thank you very mcuh.

Tom

Tom- Glad to hear you like the builds! I think you'll find the wish build a great improvement.

As for fecundity, it's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't think it is better than other sideboard choices. When it is resolved, it is great, but it isn't always resolved. The only place I would potentially put it (or caller of the claw) is in place of the thorns in the board. I guess it is a question of if you think combo or sweepers will be a bigger problem for you in your next tournament. On turn two you have access to three mana, so if you draw a pact you can get an archdruid and go aggro with all the guys you will have out, or you can kick a warcaller. You can also living wish for a warcaller. If you draw a heritage, you will be able to summon a regal force on turn three, or you could wish one in. Basically, if you were to draw any of these cards in the first three turns you would be ok:

glimpse, summoner's pact, living wish, warcaller, archdruid, symbiote (since you already have a visionary), regal force=20 cards

Since will draw 3 cards in the first three turns even if you are on the play because of visionary, that means you have a 1- (33/53 x 32/52 x 31/51)= 76.7% chance of getting one of those cards.

If you get one of them, you should be fine, so you basically have a 76.7% chance of being fine. Thus, I would keep the hand.

You are correct that this deck does not like mulligans. I would probably keep that hand. The reason is you have a visionary, so you already get one extra card, and if you draw a symbiote you will get an extra card every turn.

[NihilObstat]

3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

SB:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman



My question is. What is there in your sideboard, other than Emrakul, so important, that you would need to tutor for in the first game.

I see much more potential in running GSZ, for the same reason that you run Pact over GSZ, 1 mana less. Sure, Zenith doesn't draw on a resolved glimpse, but it's greatest power is in tutoring on turn 2 to make sure that we combo turn 3, and if we wanna use it while comboing turn 2, it means that we will be really tight in mana so again 1 less is great. Also, that's a big point for GSZ, since it can tutor Llanowar, Quirion, Symbiote, Heritage, anything, and wish only goes for Emrakul, and Warcaller..... :S
You also run 4 Pacts and 3 Wish which make many chances of having 2 of those cards in an opening hand which would suck. I only run 3 and 2, and I hate it when I get multiples in my hands. Elves is what we need not spells.

I will stick to GSZ, it has shown to be superb for me, and I don't see any advantages in adding Wish, because it also reduces sideboard spots a great deal, seeing as you only have room for Thorn since you also run Leyline.

I just want results everyone. Paper decks isn't real magic. If everyone started having great results with Wish IRL than great, but so far I'm go

[k2thej]

My question is. What is there in your sideboard, other than Emrakul, so important, that you would need to tutor for in the first game.

I see much more potential in running GSZ, for the same reason that you run Pact over GSZ, 1 mana less. Sure, Zenith doesn't draw on a resolved glimpse, but it's greatest power is in tutoring on turn 2 to make sure that we combo turn 3, and if we wanna use it while comboing turn 2, it means that we will be really tight in mana so again 1 less is great. Also, that's a big point for GSZ, since it can tutor Llanowar, Quirion, Symbiote, Heritage, anything, and wish only goes for Emrakul, and Warcaller..... :S
You also run 4 Pacts and 3 Wish which make many chances of having 2 of those cards in an opening hand which would suck. I only run 3 and 2, and I hate it when I get multiples in my hands. Elves is what we need not spells.

I will stick to GSZ, it has shown to be superb for me, and I don't see any advantages in adding Wish, because it also reduces sideboard spots a great deal, seeing as you only have room for Thorn since you also run Leyline.

I just want results everyone. Paper decks isn't real magic. If everyone started having great results with Wish IRL than great, but so far I'm go


Wish G1:
-Guarantees you won't have Emrakul in hand
-Gives you 3 more chances at regal force
-3 Chances at Cradle instead of 1
-Masticore to kill Peacekeeper, Blazing Archon, any other creatures that may stop/kill you
-Shaman to take out any artifacts
-3 more chances at a lord (warcaller)
-Terrastodon to take out any other permanents that could stop you (Tabernacle, Moat, glacial chasm, Humility, etc)
***and, above all, guaranteeing that you get the exact one of these that you need and NO others, no other tutor can do this because they require the cards to be in the deck***

To your point about having multiples in hand, Summoner's pact IS an elf, so that's irrelevant.

Also, again, my biggest gripe with GSZ is that it is summoner's pact for one more mana, and it doesn't matter if you can afford it on turn two, because the biggest obstacle to overcome with turn 2 combos (and comboing in general) is continuing to draw elves, not worrying about mana, and it does not help with this at all. Actually, it hurts it, since it is a card that if you draw mid combo it does not let you draw another card. With regards to card advantage, drawing GSZ mid combo is the same thing as drawing a land (unless you use it to get visionary or symbiote, or can afford regal force, but in all these cases summoners pact would still be better). In combo, there is no advantage whatsoever to running GSZ over pact.

EDIT: after posting this I realized you were arguing for GSZ vs. Wish not pact. My mistake.
I still say with is better for the reasons listed above. You can't compare the mana cost of the two cards because they do two completely different things. One allows you to save maindeck space, which is the biggest advantage for me that I see in wish. The other is a MD tutor, another (worse) pact. Have you tested the wish build? I really think you'll like it...

[NihilObstat]

Wish G1:
-Guarantees you won't have Emrakul in hand
-Gives you 3 more chances at regal force
-3 Chances at Cradle instead of 1
-Masticore to kill Peacekeeper, Blazing Archon, any other creatures that may stop/kill you
-Shaman to take out any artifacts
-3 more chances at a lord (warcaller)
-Terrastodon to take out any other permanents that could stop you (Tabernacle, Moat, glacial chasm, Humility, etc)
***and, above all, guaranteeing that you get the exact one of these that you need and NO others, no other tutor can do this because they require the cards to be in the deck***

To your point about having multiples in hand, Summoner's pact IS an elf, so that's irrelevant.

Also, again, my biggest gripe with GSZ is that it is summoner's pact for one more mana, and it doesn't matter if you can afford it on turn two, because the biggest obstacle to overcome with turn 2 combos (and comboing in general) is continuing to draw elves, not worrying about mana, and it does not help with this at all. Actually, it hurts it, since it is a card that if you draw mid combo it does not let you draw another card. With regards to card advantage, drawing GSZ mid combo is the same thing as drawing a land (unless you use it to get visionary or symbiote, or can afford regal force, but in all these cases summoners pact would still be better). In combo, there is no advantage whatsoever to running GSZ over pact.

EDIT: after posting this I realized you were arguing for GSZ vs. Wish not pact. My mistake.
I still say with is better for the reasons listed above. You can't compare the mana cost of the two cards because they do two completely different things. One allows you to save maindeck space, which is the biggest advantage for me that I see in wish. The other is a MD tutor, another (worse) pact. Have you tested the wish build? I really think you'll like it...


95% of the games you will ONLY use Wish to fetch Emrakul or Regal, so instead of "not seeing" 1 Emrakul in your hand, you will be seeing 3+Regal, that's great.
Cradle works hell better with Crop Rotation, nothing to say.
Peacekeeper, or Blazing archon, or Moat don't stop my build. Try running storm.
I run 1 Viridian Zealot maindeck (or Shaman), instead of 1 of your Wishes, he's a creature, he's an elf, costs the same mana, and is tutoreable with Pact + GSZ.
Ok, again you run 7 tutors, I run 5, all my 5 tutor can fetch Warcaller or Regal too. I do believe 7 is too much.
I almost NEVER see tabernacle or Glacial chasm. I don't fear Moat, and I was gonna say that the ONLY reason to add wish so far would be to destroy Humility, but wait your tutorable Terastodon doesn't destroy it, shame....

Summoner is not a Llanowar to get extra mana, that's it, and I'm not talking about summoner's anyway, but about Wish, so focus on the topic. I do run summoner's ;)

So your biggest defense is that Wish saves maindeck space. Well, again, you run 3 Wishes and the only utility and combo focused cards I see in your side are Regal and Emrakul. So instead of running 1 of each, total of 2, you are runing 1 regal and 3 wishes, which are 4 cards in your MD, and it also makes Regal 1 mana more expensive, which in most of my games has been a BIG difference.
So, after this I hope you see that Wish doesn't just screw your maindeck room which could be used fitting more elves, or giving Crop a shot, but it also makes you spend 3 spots in your side that could be better spent.

I also do believe that the only reason why you run 3 Wishes is because you actually fear that it gets countered, opposite to what you are saying, because otherwise 2 should be more than enough. You used to only run 1 Emrakul as a 1 turn wincon, why run 3 of them now. Maybe because he's no longer uncounterable?

[AznSeal]

I thought ETB abilities gets stopped by Humility to Ulamog or Terastadon can't beat it.

[MaximumC]

Interesting build.

I did not run Elves myself last weekend, but I built an Elf combo deck for a friend to run at the StarCity Legacy Challenge. (Four rounds swiss, no cut). My deck differed from yours mainly in that: (1) I ran GSZ in and an Arbor in place of the Qurion Rangersl (2) r I ran 3 more lands, and (3) I divided my threats between main and sb. So, for example, I had warcaller, regal force, and masticore main to free up more sideboard slots for Krosan Grips. My theory was the GSZ would grab these cheaper win cons for me while still functioning as a mana dork on its own.

My friend went 2-2, and his big complaint was lack of consistency. He would go off, but typically fizzle mid-combo. Your list appears geared towards combo at all costs, and maximum consistency. How does this work out when you cannot find a glimpse?


I thought ETB abilities gets stopped by Humility to Ulamog or Terastadon can't beat it.

Thats actually a fascinating point. Ulamog can destroy Humility (it's not an ETB effect) while Terrastadon cannot. Maybe we should run the Eldrazi over the Elephant?

[MaximumC]

(sorry quote != edit)

[Namida]

I suspect you're actually a champion at life if you get 13 mana to Wish for and cast Ulamog when all of your creatures are 1/1 with no abilities, in your deck with only 6 lands that tap for mana.

[k2thej]

95% of the games you will ONLY use Wish to fetch Emrakul or Regal, so instead of "not seeing" 1 Emrakul in your hand, you will be seeing 3+Regal, that's great.
Cradle works hell better with Crop Rotation, nothing to say.
Peacekeeper, or Blazing archon, or Moat don't stop my build. Try running storm.
I run 1 Viridian Zealot maindeck (or Shaman), instead of 1 of your Wishes, he's a creature, he's an elf, costs the same mana, and is tutoreable with Pact + GSZ.
Ok, again you run 7 tutors, I run 5, all my 5 tutor can fetch Warcaller or Regal too. I do believe 7 is too much.
I almost NEVER see tabernacle or Glacial chasm. I don't fear Moat, and I was gonna say that the ONLY reason to add wish so far would be to destroy Humility, but wait your tutorable Terastodon doesn't destroy it, shame....

Summoner is not a Llanowar to get extra mana, that's it, and I'm not talking about summoner's anyway, but about Wish, so focus on the topic. I do run summoner's ;)

So your biggest defense is that Wish saves maindeck space. Well, again, you run 3 Wishes and the only utility and combo focused cards I see in your side are Regal and Emrakul. So instead of running 1 of each, total of 2, you are runing 1 regal and 3 wishes, which are 4 cards in your MD, and it also makes Regal 1 mana more expensive, which in most of my games has been a BIG difference.
So, after this I hope you see that Wish doesn't just screw your maindeck room which could be used fitting more elves, or giving Crop a shot, but it also makes you spend 3 spots in your side that could be better spent.

I also do believe that the only reason why you run 3 Wishes is because you actually fear that it gets countered, opposite to what you are saying, because otherwise 2 should be more than enough. You used to only run 1 Emrakul as a 1 turn wincon, why run 3 of them now. Maybe because he's no longer uncounterable?

If you choose to ignore all the spelled out uses for with that I listed, I'm not going to keep debating this. I run three wishes because of how many uses it has, it has nothing to do with it being countered, I have never once had it countered. Seriously, not even one time.

You may not have to worry about peacekeeper, archon, moat, and the like, but if you're running storm you certainly have to worry about leyline of sanctity, solitary confinement, etc. It's the same problem with different cards.

Again, I played straight combo (with tendrils as the kill) for a very long time. I'd like you to try the wish build if we are going to keep debating. The fact that you think you only get Emrakul/Regal force seems to suggest that if you try it out you might realize how many different uses it can have and end up liking it.

Cradle is better with crop rotation, I agree with you there, but wasting the extra MD spots is not worth it.

In all your points you still have yet to give any reason to play GSZ since it does not activate glimpse. Your only arguments are that it has not been a problem. Why is it good?

The biggest choice you have with wish (or most common choice) is it can either generate mana (cradle) or spend it towards a win (Emrakul, Regal, warcaller). How valuable this is is difficult to understand until you test it. This is so rare in magic- a card that can either provide you with needed mana OR use excess mana productively!That is an amazing quality! I don't even know if there are ANY other cards that can do this. It skyrockets the consistency of the deck.

[Koplinchen]

Thank you for the answer, K2thej.

In the mean time I just feel I need two Fecundities. You need it mostly against decks that do not counter and than you are just laghing. expecialy game two when they have more sweepers and you dont always get combo. My meta is various but you see EE more often than you want.
One thing I like about this deck is that you can go the aggro route so easily. Fecundity alows you to do that without worring too much.

[k2thej]

Thank you for the answer, K2thej.

In the mean time I just feel I need two Fecundities. You need it mostly against decks that do not counter and than you are just laghing. expecialy game two when they have more sweepers and you dont always get combo. My meta is various but you see EE more often than you want.
One thing I like about this deck is that you can go the aggro route so easily. Fecundity alows you to do that without worring too much.

Ya since your comment yesterday I've been really thinking about playing them instead of thorns. Not sure yet though, haven't tested enough vs storm combo.

[PhantomOtter]

I suspect you're actually a champion at life if you get 13 mana to Wish for and cast Ulamog when all of your creatures are 1/1 with no abilities, in your deck with only 6 lands that tap for mana.

LOL. Thats funny!

I have been testing out the wish build, and let me start by saying its a great deck. The combo is pretty consistent. Only complaint so far is that your primary win condition is not in the deck. Chalice of The Void at 2 really smacks you in the face. In my opinion you really need to drop one wish for Viridian Shaman. The only other bad thing that I can find is the fact that the Sideboard is kinda limited. By using wish you seem to cut your own legs out from under yourself games 2 and 3. You almost have to combo out. Where I play I see alot of Tabernacles, Moats, Chalice of The Void and Ethersworn Canonist. It would be nice to have a few more sideboard options. Think Caller of The Claw should make an appearance in this deck. Like I said before this is just my opinion and my take on the wish build.

My name is PhantomOtter and I approve this message.

[PhantomOtter]

Also, what do you all think of adding this to the deck as a sideboard option:

Bellowing Tanglewurm

It gives all green creatures you control intimidate!

Think that this could be useful with the goblins and merfolk match ups for when you want to go aggro!

[AznSeal]

This decks amazing. Today I just wrecked this fish deck. G1
I was about to go off on turn 2 but he forced my glimpse. I proceeded to wish for a ezuri and trampled.
G2 I boarded in leylines and managed to hardcast a terastadon on turn 3 off of
Archdruid and untap effects. I proceeded to destroy his 2 aether vials and underground sea haha

[k2thej]

Also, what do you all think of adding this to the deck as a sideboard option:

Bellowing Tanglewurm

It gives all green creatures you control intimidate!

Think that this could be useful with the goblins and merfolk match ups for when you want to go aggro!

If you are worried about being blocked I think Ezuri would be more effective.



Also, if you are worried about a chalice on 2.....Chalice on 1?

[PhantomOtter]

Played around Chalice on 1. Big mana producers cost 2 and 3 in my deck as does Elvish Visionary. Aggro until I could get him into Tendrils range. Chalice is just a pain period.

[k2thej]

Played around Chalice on 1. Big mana producers cost 2 and 3 in my deck as does Elvish Visionary. Aggro until I could get him into Tendrils range. Chalice is just a pain period.

Agreed. I just think playing around chalice on 1 is much harder than playing around chalice on 2. All the same, it sucks. But that is why I play Leyline!

[NihilObstat]

If you choose to ignore all the spelled out uses for with that I listed, I'm not going to keep debating this. I run three wishes because of how many uses it has, it has nothing to do with it being countered, I have never once had it countered. Seriously, not even one time.
You may not have to worry about peacekeeper, archon, moat, and the like, but if you're running storm you certainly have to worry about leyline of sanctity, solitary confinement, etc. It's the same problem with different cards.
Again, I played straight combo (with tendrils as the kill) for a very long time. I'd like you to try the wish build if we are going to keep debating. The fact that you think you only get Emrakul/Regal force seems to suggest that if you try it out you might realize how many different uses it can have and end up liking it.
Cradle is better with crop rotation, I agree with you there, but wasting the extra MD spots is not worth it.
In all your points you still have yet to give any reason to play GSZ since it does not activate glimpse. Your only arguments are that it has not been a problem. Why is it good?
The biggest choice you have with wish (or most common choice) is it can either generate mana (cradle) or spend it towards a win (Emrakul, Regal, warcaller). How valuable this is is difficult to understand until you test it. This is so rare in magic- a card that can either provide you with needed mana OR use excess mana productively!That is an amazing quality! I don't even know if there are ANY other cards that can do this. It skyrockets the consistency of the deck.

My response is 13 lines long, and you only focused on the last 2 which were an attack on your list, not arguments. I must apologize, but please read the arguments again.

On the Emra vs. Storm point, I am saying I don't fear Peacekeeper, Archon or Moat, which you do.
Yet I do fear Leyline and Solitary, but hey wait I can beat Leyline aggro and I can tutor my maindeck Zealot for Solitary. The only deck to run both (Moat+Solitary) would be Enchantress and we beat them unless, as I've said so many times they land Humility, which is the only thing in their deck that really screws me up... but you won't be able to destroy it anyway with Terastodon as I said before, or any other tutorable creature, just Grip. So they are annoying for your list as well.

So basically I am saying that with my list I don't need to Wish and waste a full turn wishing since I have non-aggro wincons. So how is Storm worse than Emrakul, if I may ask.

I also don't accept you telling me that I waste MD spots, when I have shown you that 3 Wishes are a waste of spots. You should read my last anwer again and forget about the last 2 lines, which I again apologize for.

You say that my only argument for GSZ is that it's not a problem, so I'll just rewrite the arguments again, clearer...
1. GSZ can be a Llanowar or Arbor dryad.
2. It costs 1 mana less (big difference).
3. It's biggest strength is setting up an extra mana on turn 2.
4. While comboing it can tutor Heritage, Symbiote, Quirion, Visionary, opposite to Wish with only wincons.
5. GSZ is Summoner's 5-8 since it can change for ANYTHING you need and it's playable turn 1 or 2, unlike Pact.

When you draw multiple Wishes while going off, what do you do? Spend 3 mana to cast a 1/1 Warcaller? Get Craddle, but wait, I need another turn to land a land.

I am able to run Rotation plus Cradle with the 2 spots you waste with Wishes ;) Although Cradle goes in for a land not a useful card.

On the card quality, GSZ can fetch Heritage for mana advantage (like you wish cradle, but I don't need an extra turn), for Warcaller(like you wish emrakul, warcaller), Regal force (card advantage). So I think GSZ also has all the magnificent and outstanding qualities that you talk about in Wish.

I will try the wish list AGAIN, but I am positive that GSZ is more consistent.

[k2thej]

My response is 13 lines long, and you only focused on the last 2 which were an attack on your list, not arguments. I must apologize, but please read the arguments again.

On the Emra vs. Storm point, I am saying I don't fear Peacekeeper, Archon or Moat, which you do.
Yet I do fear Leyline and Solitary, but hey wait I can beat Leyline aggro and I can tutor my maindeck Zealot for Solitary. The only deck to run both (Moat+Solitary) would be Enchantress and we beat them unless, as I've said so many times they land Humility, which is the only thing in their deck that really screws me up... but you won't be able to destroy it anyway with Terastodon as I said before, or any other tutorable creature, just Grip. So they are annoying for your list as well.

So basically I am saying that with my list I don't need to Wish and waste a full turn wishing since I have non-aggro wincons. So how is Storm worse than Emrakul, if I may ask.

I also don't accept you telling me that I waste MD spots, when I have shown you that 3 Wishes are a waste of spots. You should read my last anwer again and forget about the last 2 lines, which I again apologize for.

You say that my only argument for GSZ is that it's not a problem, so I'll just rewrite the arguments again, clearer...
1. GSZ can be a Llanowar or Arbor dryad.
2. It costs 1 mana less (big difference).
3. It's biggest strength is setting up an extra mana on turn 2.
4. While comboing it can tutor Heritage, Symbiote, Quirion, Visionary, opposite to Wish with only wincons.
5. GSZ is Summoner's 5-8 since it can change for ANYTHING you need and it's playable turn 1 or 2, unlike Pact.

When you draw multiple Wishes while going off, what do you do? Spend 3 mana to cast a 1/1 Warcaller? Get Craddle, but wait, I need another turn to land a land.

I am able to run Rotation plus Cradle with the 2 spots you waste with Wishes ;) Although Cradle goes in for a land not a useful card.

On the card quality, GSZ can fetch Heritage for mana advantage (like you wish cradle, but I don't need an extra turn), for Warcaller(like you wish emrakul, warcaller), Regal force (card advantage). So I think GSZ also has all the magnificent and outstanding qualities that you talk about in Wish.

I will try the wish list AGAIN, but I am positive that GSZ is more consistent.

I will test GSZ again since you are testing wish again before I comment on it.

As for storm though, anytime you storm, you could have cast emrakul, so they are essentially even with the consistency of pulling them off combo wise. Emrakul is afraid of peacekeeper and archon, storm is afraid of leyline and solitary, so call that a wash. Up until now, they are even.

Emrakul breaks the tie by being able to be cast without comboing. You can only cast storm mid combo, you can cast Emrakul anytime you happen to have a buttload of mana available, which is every time you could have stormed AND anytime you have a bunch of mana when you are not comboing. They are pretty much equally valuable when cast, but Emrakul can be cast more. Thus, he is better.

Your point about being able to use the zealot is a point for running a maindeck zealot/shaman, not a point for playing a stormkill.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry. I got lost for time with this deck and i wanna answer: what happen with chord of coilling?? Is living wish that better??

[k2thej]

Sorry. I got lost for time with this deck and i wanna answer: what happen with chord of coilling?? Is living wish that better??

Pact, Wish, and GSZ are all better. The debate now is between wish and GSZ as a second tutor with pact.

[GoldenCid]

Pact, Wish, and GSZ are all better. The debate now is between wish and GSZ as a second tutor with pact.

Indeed?? And instant that do exactly the same than gsz for just GG more but with convoke is better???

[kyller83]

wow! i leave for a week and come back to a heated debate! awesome.

in a defense to the wish package i have actually wished for every target in board, game 1, at one time or another.

masticore is fantastic against hate bear decks.

ezuri is great for protecting against the most common sweepers and can help your team slide under ensnaring bridge(u/w counter top)

terastodon blows up everything but humility

i'm not trying to say that i've never wanted a krosan grip or to board in 4 vengevines like i used to, but in my testing the wish package is the most consistent way to go. you can complain about the extra mana cost, but you get to untap sentinels in between so you still net extra mana.

i'll have to look up nihil's list so i can test it since he's been so vocal on it. i'm always willing to give new tech a try.

[k2thej]

wow! i leave for a week and come back to a heated debate! awesome.

in a defense to the wish package i have actually wished for every target in board, game 1, at one time or another.

masticore is fantastic against hate bear decks.

ezuri is great for protecting against the most common sweepers and can help your team slide under ensnaring bridge(u/w counter top)

terastodon blows up everything but humility

i'm not trying to say that i've never wanted a krosan grip or to board in 4 vengevines like i used to, but in my testing the wish package is the most consistent way to go. you can complain about the extra mana cost, but you get to untap sentinels in between so you still net extra mana.

i'll have to look up nihil's list so i can test it since he's been so vocal on it. i'm always willing to give new tech a try.

Nihil's list def isn't bad. It's actually insanely similar to the list I ran before I started using Emrakul. I just think wish, like you said, is more consistent. I tested GSZ last night by essentially playing with my wish build and then every time I had a wish I asked myself "would I rather have had this be a GSZ?" I will continue to do this to see which one I end up wanting more, though wish was def in the lead after last night.

[unicoerner]

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman


I like the list and will test Wishes.There are 2 points which i don't get, why do you play 4 Birchlores and no Messangers?
2nd: Why do you open yourself up to Stifles by playing fetches? I know cardremoval and such and with Glimpse this might really matter ( studying maths so i am aware of that) but i don't want to lose matches becasue my only land or 2nd land is stifled.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Indeed?? And instant that do exactly the same than gsz for just GG more but with convoke is better???

Because you don't really need tutors until you're comboing.
And when you're comboing, all of your elves should tap for mana anyway.

[Namida]

Nihil's list def isn't bad. It's actually insanely similar to the list I ran before I started using Emrakul. I just think wish, like you said, is more consistent. I tested GSZ last night by essentially playing with my wish build and then every time I had a wish I asked myself "would I rather have had this be a GSZ?" I will continue to do this to see which one I end up wanting more, though wish was def in the lead after last night.

The way you've described your test doesn't seem like it's doing the test justice. I admit I might be jumping on semantics here, though. Let me ask: are you playing your deck as though you have GSZ in it, or are you just playing your deck like you're packing Wishes and evaluating the GSZs based on situations you naturally play yourself into where Wish would clearly have been the better card? The way you've described it, it seems as though you're playing your deck the way you've practiced since you made the change to a Wish-based list, and when you finally draw the card in question you're evaluating it based on a situation that you would navigate yourself into with the expectation that you would be able Wish for something.

What I'm seeing is that even if your only switch was Wish for GSZ (which probably wouldn't be the genuine case, given that your deck doesn't have any other "combo" win condition in the main), your deck would require an different playstyle that cannot accurately be represented from the testing, as you've portrayed it.

I think you'll find that you're doomed to butt heads over this until you agree to disagree because you are arguing about two different cards that serve two different roles in two different decks--and these decks are specifically tailored to your respective playstyles. Living Wish is your main win condition, and your answer to problem cards. In Nihil's Deck, Green Sun's Zenith isn't the win condition at all. It functions as extra copies of Summoner's Pact. How can you argue which one is better in your deck when the very inclusion of one card over another actually changes the entire focus of the deck?

[k2thej]

The way you've described your test doesn't seem like it's doing the test justice. I admit I might be jumping on semantics here, though. Let me ask: are you playing your deck as though you have GSZ in it, or are you just playing your deck like you're packing Wishes and evaluating the GSZs based on situations you naturally play yourself into where Wish would clearly have been the better card? The way you've described it, it seems as though you're playing your deck the way you've practiced since you made the change to a Wish-based list, and when you finally draw the card in question you're evaluating it based on a situation that you would navigate yourself into with the expectation that you would be able Wish for something.

What I'm seeing is that even if your only switch was Wish for GSZ (which probably wouldn't be the genuine case, given that your deck doesn't have any other "combo" win condition in the main), your deck would require an different playstyle that cannot accurately be represented from the testing, as you've portrayed it.

I think you'll find that you're doomed to butt heads over this until you agree to disagree because you are arguing about two different cards that serve two different roles in two different decks--and these decks are specifically tailored to your respective playstyles. Living Wish is your main win condition, and your answer to problem cards. In Nihil's Deck, Green Sun's Zenith isn't the win condition at all. It functions as extra copies of Summoner's Pact. How can you argue which one is better in your deck when the very inclusion of one card over another actually changes the entire focus of the deck?

They do serve two different functions. We are debating which function is better to include.

I play just to try to combo as fast as I can, not thinking about wish targets or anything. I treat the card as whichever would have made me combo faster.

[k2thej]

This has been discussed to great extent earlier in the thread, but Messenger is very bad in combo. I is, first of all, 4 mana, which is already bad. On top of that, if you see a glimpse/pact it puts it on the bottom of your library. You do not want this. You want to see glimpse as fast as you can, so this card is actually counter productive.

Birchlore makes the combo faster, and it is a one-drop. It is a great inclusion.

I have never been stifled. The card removal is more important. Not to mention that we only need one land, so the probability of your opponent having stifle is already pretty low, and then on top of that the probability that you have a fetch not a forest in hand is even lower.

[Namida]

They do serve two different functions. We are arguing about which function is better to include.

Pardon me if I'm missing the point, and feel free to correct me. What I'm getting at is more that you're playing two different decks. How are you evaluating which one would have had you combo faster? When you pretend you're playing GSZ, are you pretending that you have Grapeshots and Silver Bullets in your deck, too? I just feel like GSZ would play completely differently in a deck with Emrakul in it than the deck that Nihil is playing.

[unicoerner]

I don't know if the risk/reward ratio is good for the fetches.

After i built your deck i immediatley realized why Messangers are bad. Sry for asking.
Perhaps we could find a spot for eternal witness in the board?
Another Joraga might be good too, if we want to go the aggro route sometimes which your build can still do very well.

[k2thej]

Pardon me if I'm missing the point, and feel free to correct me. What I'm getting at is more that you're playing two different decks. How are you evaluating which one would have had you combo faster? When you pretend you're playing GSZ, are you pretending that you have Grapeshots and Silver Bullets in your deck, too? I just feel like GSZ would play completely differently in a deck with Emrakul in it than the deck that Nihil is playing.

Emrakul and storm with respect to elves combo are almost the same card. They are a way to finish the combo, which one you play has very little effect on how the deck functions.

After looking at Nihil's list again, I think I had forgotten how different our lists were. I appreciate you pointing this because you are completely right, we are playing two very different takes on elves combo. This was my mistake. I suppose the debate should shift to which build is better altogether rather than which tutor, since each respective tutor likely works better in the build it is currently in.

***If everyone could test both builds (adjusting their playing styles to each when testing of course), and post the pros/cons they find for each, we could get some really, really good data***

[k2thej]

I like the joraga in the board, but idk about running 2 main. We already have 8 chances at him (1 main, 4 pact, 3 wish). Plus we can put the other in if we want to go straight non-wish aggro.

I tested eternal witness in the board a lot and never searched for her. Try testing it I think you'll see what I mean.

[NihilObstat]

k2thej, what I meant by: I will test the Wish list, is that I was gonna try your exact decklist, not to add wishes to mine. I believe that that is what testing is about. You should do the same. I woulnd't play GSZ at all in your deck because it's quite different. I suggest you try my deck, play 20-30 online games, and write down matchups, wins-losses, etc.
Again I think I didn't explain myself properly I don't fear Leyline by itself because I can kill aggro, I only fear Solitary confinement, since it does both, Aggro and Storm protection. So I fear 1 frequently used card opposite to 3 commonly used.

My current list, still tweaking it up a bit, with the new changes.:

Creatures [31]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel

Instants [6]
1 Crop Rotation
3 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries [5]
1 Grapeshot
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [2]
2 Cloudstone Curio

Lands [16]
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dyrad arbor (not positive, maybe needs 3 GSZ at least)
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest

Sideobard: It is going through change with GSZ, still testing.
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Elvish champion
1 Elvish archdruid


To GoldenCig: So, I am still very fond of Chord of Calling, and taking it out has made me lose 3 very important cards for my old build: Mirror entity, Burrenton forge-tender, Yixlid jailer.

Chord becomes outstanding next to more Wirewood hivemasters, also adding Magus of the Moon to the side.

Losing this 3 cards makes up for more consistency and speed. I do fear Firespout and Pyroclasm a lot now, though, and I don't know what to do... Mirror entity used to be a MD protector against those cards, and then Burrenton was just outstanding. Anyone has any good ideas? That's why I added more lords to the side. I still need something good to make up for the huge aggro loss of Entity.

To K2thej: On running 16 lands vs. 13 or so: Some people only play 13 lands to reduce the number of them in the opening hands, but then they increase by a great deal the number of mulligans they take.
So it breaks down like this- Do we prefer the risk of having a 7 cards - 2-3 lands hand, or 6-5 cards - 1 land hand ?

You should also realize that only us and 13-land stompy run so few lands. The next Legacy deck to run the fewest lands run 18 of them, backep up by 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm.... and then some have 20, many 23, and many others 28. 16 lands is still a very low range number. 13 is, I belive, suicidal even with 8 Llanowars.

[k2thej]

k2thej, what I meant by: I will test the Wish list, is that I was gonna try your exact decklist, not to add wishes to mine. I believe that that is what testing is about. You should do the same. I woulnd't play GSZ at all in your deck because it's quite different. I suggest you try my deck, play 20-30 online games, and write down matchups, wins-losses, etc.
Again I think I didn't explain myself properly I don't fear Leyline by itself because I can kill aggro, I only fear Solitary confinement, since it does both, Aggro and Storm protection. So I fear 1 frequently used card opposite to 3 commonly used.

My current list, still tweaking it up a bit, with the new changes.:

Creatures [31]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel

Instants [6]
1 Crop Rotation
3 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries [5]
1 Grapeshot
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [2]
2 Cloudstone Curio

Lands [16]
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dyrad arbor (not positive, maybe needs 3 GSZ at least)
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest

Sideobard: It is going through change with GSZ, still testing.
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Elvish champion
1 Elvish archdruid


To GoldenCig: So, I am still very fond of Chord of Calling, and taking it out has made me lose 3 very important cards for my old build: Mirror entity, Burrenton forge-tender, Yixlid jailer.

Chord becomes outstanding next to more Wirewood hivemasters, also adding Magus of the Moon to the side.

Losing this 3 cards makes up for more consistency and speed. I do fear Firespout and Pyroclasm a lot now, though, and I don't know what to do... Mirror entity used to be a MD protector against those cards, and then Burrenton was just outstanding. Anyone has any good ideas? That's why I added more lords to the side. I still need something good to make up for the huge aggro loss of Entity.

To K2thej: On running 16 lands vs. 13 or so: Some people only play 13 lands to reduce the number of them in the opening hands, but then they increase by a great deal the number of mulligans they take.
So it breaks down like this- Do we prefer the risk of having a 7 cards - 2-3 lands hand, or 6-5 cards - 1 land hand ?

You should also realize that only us and 13-land stompy run so few lands. The next Legacy deck to run the fewest lands run 18 of them, backep up by 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm.... and then some have 20, many 23, and many others 28. 16 lands is still a very low range number. 13 is, I belive, suicidal even with 8 Llanowars.


Ya after Namida posted earlier I realized you guys are completely right. I am testing both lists now.

The opening hand is not the main concern with 13 lands, the main concern is minimizing fizzling. We only need one land. Sure we run less lands than everyone else, but you cannot judge a deck where almost every single creature is a mana producer the same way that you judge the rest of legacy.

Also, if anyone wants to tell me how to quote multiple pats of a post/posts rather than the whole thing that would be awesome!

[Humphrey]

I present my take on this deck ^^

9 Forest
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Concordant Crossroads
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Food Chain
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Staff of Domination
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary

[NihilObstat]

I present my take on this deck ^^

The two decks that I use most frequently are Combo Elves and Berserk stompy, and in both deck people just keep trying to play Land Grant.
Land grant is only good for Belcher or Casual, and almost nowhere else. Daze, Spell pierce, Spell snare, even FOW will be GG if you keep a hand with a single Grant vs. a single Basic Land.

We have previously discussed why most people don't play Sylvan Messenger in combo elves, but I am really interested in why do you run Food Chain. I tend to have problems with fizzling not mana problems...

Staff of domination is your Glimpse number 5, although I still prefer Cloudstone curio.

Why run concordant crossroads when you have Emrakul? I know it works wonders next to Archdruid, but the more elves you can pack the better, I believe.

Also ElvishSpiritGuide looks a LOT more powerful next to Priest of titania than Archdruid.

Other than that your list looks like a mix between different options. Could we see your sideboard?


To k2thej I was writing my message while you wrote those 2 so I didn't see your answer, sorry ;)

To everyone: Now that I come across ESG again. I have had a couple games when I had a pact in hand and needed 1 mana to keep comboing and wished that I had 1 ESG in the deck. Could we consider running 1 to tutor or speed first turn, just 1? He's an elf afterwards so taps for mana next to Heritage ^^

[Humphrey]

I dont want to depend on the combo with Sentinels and Druids to much, thats why I added Foodchain and Archdruid. Archdruid can provide enough mana for Emrakul really fast and also you can just go Beatdown.
Sylvan Messanger and Visionarys are nuts with Foodchain, so you dont need Glimpse.
Staff and Crossroads are Winoptions with Archdruids if Emrakul doesnt show up.

Land Grant, i dont know yet. Never had it countered yet and usually you only need 1 Forest at the beginning. The upside of this, its a green spell that untaps Sentinels for free.

[Namida]

The deck I normally play is SI, and I have Goblin Charbelcher in my deck. Maximizing Charbelcher is the only legitimate reason to play Land Grant. I've lost a few games to Force of Will on a T1 Land Grant. Even if the number of times I've lost because I play Land Grant is only once, that number is at least one more than you should ever have to even fear in a deck like Elf Combo. The upsides to cutting the extra lands out of your deck in no way outweigh the added risk to your game plan.

[k2thej]

The deck I normally play is SI, and I have Goblin Charbelcher in my deck. Maximizing Charbelcher is the only legitimate reason to play Land Grant. I've lost a few games to Force of Will on a T1 Land Grant. Even if the number of times I've lost because I play Land Grant is only once, that number is at least one more than you should ever have to even fear in a deck like Elf Combo. The upsides to cutting the extra lands out of your deck in no way outweigh the added risk to your game plan.

Yup, it is just a fetch land that can be countered and that costs mana after turn one. It sucks just as much if you draw it mid combo. Absolutely no reason to play it.

[Elvish Visionary]

Hello everyone I have been following this thread since this past april but finally wanted to post my deck, I am really happy with my current build, Its nothing special but have had alot of great games with it.

7x Fetch
5x Forest
2x Bayou (going to make basic or one Tiaga)

4x Glimpse
4x Summoner's Pact

4x Llanowar
4x Fyndhorn
4x Birchlore
4x Herritage
4x Nettle
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Priest of Titania
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Joraga warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Emurkal
1x Banefire
1x Tendrils

Thats 61 right now but it works pretty good, as for the banefire it works pretty good especially with an active priest and wirewood/quirion.

I will be trying the Living wish version but I am not sure about the Archdurids. I have been thinking of playing around with it and trying to add gaea's cradle. I am sure I will hear that I have to change my deck, but who knows I may be taking it to SCG in washington, dc this weekend, if not definately Eddison, NJ

[magicplaya10]

I just wanted to comment on the living wish version. I absolutely love it. After testing a few games, it has pulled me out of some crap. The one thing that I have trouble with is enchantments, on occasion. With only Terrastadon as the only way to blow them up, does anyone else have an idea?
I was thinking of running Viridian Zealot main as a one of, that way we can combat CB maindeck, and not have to living wish for answers against moat, artifacts,etc.

[k2thej]

I just wanted to comment on the living wish version. I absolutely love it. After testing a few games, it has pulled me out of some crap. The one thing that I have trouble with is enchantments, on occasion. With only Terrastadon as the only way to blow them up, does anyone else have an idea?
I was thinking of running Viridian Zealot main as a one of, that way we can combat CB maindeck, and not have to living wish for answers against moat, artifacts,etc.

Ya I'm starting to notice that we need enchantment destruction before we can afford terrastodon as well. I might replace him with a zealot in the board though, since we can afford 4 mana to wish for him really easily. If the wish would be countered by CB then the zealot would have been anyway since they are the same CMC, so there's not really more of a risk by putting him in the board. The more I tested it the more I realized how infrequently we needed to kill 3 permanents at once, so I think this move would be a much more effective use of a board spot.

[Mr. Safety]

Hello everyone I have been following this thread since this past april but finally wanted to post my deck, I am really happy with my current build, Its nothing special but have had alot of great games with it.

7x Fetch
5x Forest
2x Bayou (going to make basic or one Tiaga)

4x Glimpse
4x Summoner's Pact

4x Llanowar
4x Fyndhorn
4x Birchlore
4x Herritage
4x Nettle
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Priest of Titania
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Joraga warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Emurkal
1x Banefire
1x Tendrils

Thats 61 right now but it works pretty good, as for the banefire it works pretty good especially with an active priest and wirewood/quirion.

I will be trying the Living wish version but I am not sure about the Archdurids. I have been thinking of playing around with it and trying to add gaea's cradle. I am sure I will hear that I have to change my deck, but who knows I may be taking it to SCG in washington, dc this weekend, if not definately Eddison, NJ

It's been mentioned several times, but I feel that a lord maindeck is smart (besides Warcaller, which is more of a combo win card than a lord). I know you are using Priest to good effect with Banefire, but I would rather have Elvish Archdruid. He does the same functionally for producing huge gobs of mana, but also pumps your dudes allowing for an aggro win. The only thing I don't have for my deck is an Emrakul. He isn't horribly expensive, but I'm not sure about using him without Living Wish (I don't like the wish builds, for the same reason I don't like Green Sun's Zenith: it isn't an elf to fuel Glimpse) I am currently testing Tendrils over Grapeshot, but I'm a little old skool...I have always liked Grapeshot.

[k2thej]

It's been mentioned several times, but I feel that a lord maindeck is smart (besides Warcaller, which is more of a combo win card than a lord). I know you are using Priest to good effect with Banefire, but I would rather have Elvish Archdruid. He does the same functionally for producing huge gobs of mana, but also pumps your dudes allowing for an aggro win. The only thing I don't have for my deck is an Emrakul. He isn't horribly expensive, but I'm not sure about using him without Living Wish (I don't like the wish builds, for the same reason I don't like Green Sun's Zenith: it isn't an elf to fuel Glimpse) I am currently testing Tendrils over Grapeshot, but I'm a little old skool...I have always liked Grapeshot.

If you are worried about elf fuel think of it this way; whatever your storm kill is will be one card that isn't elf fuel, so that cancels out one wish. So there are two left. A cradle is another card that is not elf fuel, so if you have a cradle MD that cancels the second wish. Leaving only one wish that actually takes out a one drop (if you want to run three). the way I play it, The wishes only change the number of one drops in my deck by one, with the wishes I still have 28 one-drops, 4 visionaries, and 4 summoner's pacts, which I usually find to be plenty of combo fuel. That is exactly 3/5 of the deck that continue the combo even with the wishes in. Those are really good odds.

[Beautiful-Decay]

Hello fellow elf-players.

I've been working on my elf-combo deck for a while (though without playtesting much (only a few of my friends play legacy.) Anyway, please comment or add cards to my list:

Lands:

Mutavault x1
Wooded Foothills x1
Misty Rainforest x2
Windswept Heath x1
Verdant Catacombs x1
Savannah x1
Forest x3
Penalhaven x1
Gaea's Cradle x4
Horizon Canopy x1
-----16-----

Creatures:
Heritage Druid x4
Llanowar Elves x2
Fynhorn Elf x2
Arbor Elf x2
Quirion Ranger x2
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Elvish Visionary x4
Viridian Zealot x1
Wirewood Symbiote x4
Regal Force x1
Eternal Witness x1
-----31-----


Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x4
Summoner's Pact x4
Living Wish x3
Grapeshot x1
Crop Rotation x1
-----13-----
Deck size:
-----60-----

SB (Might need fixing):
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Viridian Zealot
x1 Emrakul, The Aeons Thorn
x4 Leyline of Lifeforce
x4 Thorn of Amethyst
x1 Caller of Claws
x1 Joraga Warcaller
-----13-----
Deck + SB
-----73-----

[k2thej]

Hello fellow elf-players.

I've been working on my elf-combo deck for a while (though without playtesting much (only a few of my friends play legacy.) Anyway, please comment or add cards to my list:

Lands:

Mutavault x1
Wooded Foothills x1
Misty Rainforest x2
Windswept Heath x1
Verdant Catacombs x1
Savannah x1
Forest x3
Penalhaven x1
Gaea's Cradle x4
Horizon Canopy x1
-----16-----

Creatures:
Heritage Druid x4
Llanowar Elves x2
Fynhorn Elf x2
Arbor Elf x2
Quirion Ranger x2
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Elvish Visionary x4
Viridian Zealot x1
Wirewood Symbiote x4
Regal Force x1
Eternal Witness x1
-----31-----


Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x4
Summoner's Pact x4
Living Wish x3
Grapeshot x1
Crop Rotation x1
-----13-----
Deck size:
-----60-----

SB (Might need fixing):
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Viridian Zealot
x1 Emrakul, The Aeons Thorn
x4 Leyline of Lifeforce
x4 Thorn of Amethyst
x1 Caller of Claws
x1 Joraga Warcaller
-----13-----
Deck + SB
-----73-----

Couple thoughts on your mana base:

Have you ever found mutavault to be helpful?
In a deck with limited lands you want to make sure whatever you get will be useful since it is frequently only one.
You want it to be an elf, so why not play an elf in its spot? I really don't see a reason for mutavault

4 cradles is def too much. This plus mutavault leaves you with only 11 lands that can start you off. That's reeeeally low.

[Hawdes]

Couple thoughts on your mana base:

Have you ever found mutavault to be helpful?
In a deck with limited lands you want to make sure whatever you get will be useful since it is frequently only one.
You want it to be an elf, so why not play an elf in its spot? I really don't see a reason for mutavault

4 cradles is def too much. This plus mutavault leaves you with only 11 lands that can start you off. That's reeeeally low.

I run three Gaea's Cradle main deck and one in the board... And I often want more than that and have never felt that it has been clogging up my hand.
So I think it works fine. But with added mutavaults it could be a problem...
I run 15 lands, 5 Fetch, 3 Cradle and 7 Forests... I have no problem with that.

[k2thej]

I run three Gaea's Cradle main deck and one in the board... And I often want more than that and have never felt that it has been clogging up my hand.
So I think it works fine. But with added mutavaults it could be a problem...
I run 15 lands, 5 Fetch, 3 Cradle and 7 Forests... I have no problem with that.

Right but when thinking about your opening hand, you need to consider the fact that you need one of the 12 lands (7 forest, 5 fetch) that can put your first creature in play before any of the other lands matter. You might be able to squeak by with 12 but you have to think about the lands you run as how many actually generate green mana with no creatures in play.

[Koplinchen]

Hey guys,

I played a big tournament yesterday and Elves were just magnificent. I used K2thej wish list with slightly differen side:
4 leyline 3 thorn 1fecundity 1grip 1Gcradle 1Tstodon 1Vshaman 1masticore 1Rforce 1Emrakul

It was a qualification for a big money tournament and the winner got some byes.

1) Dredge - I was a bit late because my girlfriend didnt want to wake up and didnt have time to write down my decklist. I got gameloss for not having decklist in time. But then I realized I wrote it down into my notebook torn paper off it and here we go!
He started and I got completely smashed. I was bit worried because we have basicaly no side for this MU. Game two and three he kept slightly weaker hands, dredging didnt show him anything (Ioona is a GG) and I won easily.
1:0

2) Canada - They have Fire/Ice but you usully have Symbiote so its 1 for1. I guess they can win if they start and stifle our only land. Otherwise this is very good MU. I didnt play very well but it was enough. Cool plays were when his tarmogoyf attacked and only then we realized that there might be 20 card in graves but its still only 3/4 so I blocked with Masticore. On my following turn I forgot to dicard a card. Great! Two easy wins.
2:0

3) Zoo - Two Symbiotes gave me like twenty-five turns until I whished for RF and went off. Then I mulled into 4 and he killed me. Well done. Last game I had combo T2.
3:0

4) Dragon Stompy - Do I need to say more? Did you ever win this one? Lets start with game two. He is reading Leyline for like a minute. I start with Llanowar Elf. Trinishpehre. No land in hand but I drew one. Then Archdruid which nullifies it and he has Jitte but no creatures... Actually I was quite lucky. Last game I didnt see Leyline in my one lander. In my six I kept two forests and Visionary. Chalice, Trini... Dead and buried.
This matchup really sucks. In theory if he starts with blood moon it can be gg as well.
3:1

5) B Merfolk - He wants draw (has 4:0) but that might not be enough for me so we have to play. I won the first one. In game two I hade leyline and lot of creatures but after he perished my board I had only Masticore with one card in hand. I had no other way then keeping it alive but he had vial and played mutavault every turn. He made some awful blunders like blocking it with LoA and Muta - I just regenerate it... THEN he read the card again.
Last game I fizzled after three pacts and I was quite happy to have enough mana to pay 12g. Time is called but I still have billion elves on board to kill him on my last turn backed up with joraga. He has two lands no creatures. He draws... Its underground sea and he casts Perish. Damn! On the other had he could have drew it one turn earlier and I would have lost. Alright.
3:1:1

6) Affinity - I need to win this one. Thank you Lady Luck. He is like twelve and I congratulate him for his good result so far. He cast his hand on turn two. Smiling. I do the same. I win. And again.
4:1:1

Top 8.

4fin - The Zoo guy again. He is very nice but his deck has almost no chance. I kill him twice quickly.

2fin - Merfolk. Without black this time. In the first one I mulled into five - 3 elves, forest, glimps. He had no counters... Last game of the day was another epic - he had a huge board - I wished for Masticore and he attacked (I am at 3) he was probably thinking its the game but I managed to block and only mishra gets through killing one of his lords. I am at 1. And another attack when his lord runs into Masticore again and then... He has nothing. Only mind harnessed quirion. He didnt draw anything else and I claim the final.
Quirion has been amazing. Returning redundant lands and thus keeping Masticore alive. Urzas Destiny rare has been just awesome. I dont know how old are you but I remeber times of type II Trinity Green when it was THE DECK smashing everyone. Every other player here doesent know it. Or better they think they know it.

fin - He is a frined and its too late anyway. BW Tempo wouldnt be a problem I belive. So we split and I am listed as a winner.


It was great tourney. I never wished for Tstodon. I am not sure how good it is aginst enchantments. Thera are lot of aggro decks here in Prague and I hate loosing against merfolk. This deck is simply great. And imho its the best deck right now. Thanks to K2thej again.

Tom

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Hi everybody. I have all the cards I need to build this deck, I just haven't put it together yet. Before I do, I'd like to get some feedback on my hypothetical build. I have spent several hours browsing this thread, reading discussions on Concordant Crossroads, Cloudstone Curio, GSZ, Land Grant, Emrakul, ... you get the idea, basically every post by k2thej. So, here's where I'm at:

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania (need to test to see which I prefer)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Birchlore Rangers
2 Concordant Crossroads
1 Regal Force
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Living Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest


Wish/Side Board Rough Draft:

1 Emrakul
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terastodon
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Elvish Champion
2 Viridian Zealot
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce


Looking for input, comments and criticism. k2thej I'm sure you've got something to say. You have a million posts on here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[k2thej]

Hi everybody. I have all the cards I need to build this deck, I just haven't put it together yet. Before I do, I'd like to get some feedback on my hypothetical build. I have spent several hours browsing this thread, reading discussions on Concordant Crossroads, Cloudstone Curio, GSZ, Land Grant, Emrakul, ... you get the idea, basically every post by k2thej. So, here's where I'm at:

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania (need to test to see which I prefer)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Birchlore Rangers
2 Concordant Crossroads
1 Regal Force
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Living Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest


Wish/Side Board Rough Draft:

1 Emrakul
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terastodon
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Elvish Champion
2 Viridian Zealot
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce


Looking for input, comments and criticism. k2thej I'm sure you've got something to say. You have a million posts on here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Why land grant over fetches?

and ya....I love this thread haha

[InResponseForceOfWill]

lol 33 minutes after I post, k2thej replies. I love it. Thanks :)

Keep in mind this build is hypothetical at the moment. I have done no testing to back up my choices. I've only gone from what I've read on this thread. I chose Grant over fetches because:

Untaps Nettle
Adds to Storm
Can't Stifle

Many people argue that it's worse than fetches b/c of counter magic. I'll find out if this is an issue once I build and test it. However, my thoughts are that my opponent's would likely save their counter magic for Glimpse and Regal Force or what have you.

Also, I was thinking dropping a ESG for something, not sure for what yet.

Other than the Land Grant comment, do you see anything else that is questionable or could use adjusting? I tried to include a variety of win conditions:

Combo with Grapeshot
Straight up aggro with Warcaller
Wish for Emrakul if I have the mana <-- might try NO Pro instead, but then I'd have to dismantle my NO Pro CounterTop and that deck is pretty solid as it is

I'm still on the fence about Living Wish. It seems like it can give you a lot of wiggle room, but can it be a 1 of? I notice that of the people that choose to run it, most run 2 or 3.

[k2thej]

Ya you can test land grand and see if you like it.

Generally one wincon is the way to go since anything more than that cuts down on your one drop count and thus affects combo consistency.

Wishes are great, and I would advise moving the cradle to the board to save MD spots.

I have never wished for eternal witness in all my testing, so I removed it. Test it and see but I never found her useful.

NO Ctop is great deck. Leave the prog in there haha.

[k2thej]

Hey guys,

I played a big tournament yesterday and Elves were just magnificent. I used K2thej wish list with slightly differen side:
4 leyline 3 thorn 1fecundity 1grip 1Gcradle 1Tstodon 1Vshaman 1masticore 1Rforce 1Emrakul

It was a qualification for a big money tournament and the winner got some byes.

1) Dredge - I was a bit late because my girlfriend didnt want to wake up and didnt have time to write down my decklist. I got gameloss for not having decklist in time. But then I realized I wrote it down into my notebook torn paper off it and here we go!
He started and I got completely smashed. I was bit worried because we have basicaly no side for this MU. Game two and three he kept slightly weaker hands, dredging didnt show him anything (Ioona is a GG) and I won easily.
1:0

2) Canada - They have Fire/Ice but you usully have Symbiote so its 1 for1. I guess they can win if they start and stifle our only land. Otherwise this is very good MU. I didnt play very well but it was enough. Cool plays were when his tarmogoyf attacked and only then we realized that there might be 20 card in graves but its still only 3/4 so I blocked with Masticore. On my following turn I forgot to dicard a card. Great! Two easy wins.
2:0

3) Zoo - Two Symbiotes gave me like twenty-five turns until I whished for RF and went off. Then I mulled into 4 and he killed me. Well done. Last game I had combo T2.
3:0

4) Dragon Stompy - Do I need to say more? Did you ever win this one? Lets start with game two. He is reading Leyline for like a minute. I start with Llanowar Elf. Trinishpehre. No land in hand but I drew one. Then Archdruid which nullifies it and he has Jitte but no creatures... Actually I was quite lucky. Last game I didnt see Leyline in my one lander. In my six I kept two forests and Visionary. Chalice, Trini... Dead and buried.
This matchup really sucks. In theory if he starts with blood moon it can be gg as well.
3:1

5) B Merfolk - He wants draw (has 4:0) but that might not be enough for me so we have to play. I won the first one. In game two I hade leyline and lot of creatures but after he perished my board I had only Masticore with one card in hand. I had no other way then keeping it alive but he had vial and played mutavault every turn. He made some awful blunders like blocking it with LoA and Muta - I just regenerate it... THEN he read the card again.
Last game I fizzled after three pacts and I was quite happy to have enough mana to pay 12g. Time is called but I still have billion elves on board to kill him on my last turn backed up with joraga. He has two lands no creatures. He draws... Its underground sea and he casts Perish. Damn! On the other had he could have drew it one turn earlier and I would have lost. Alright.
3:1:1

6) Affinity - I need to win this one. Thank you Lady Luck. He is like twelve and I congratulate him for his good result so far. He cast his hand on turn two. Smiling. I do the same. I win. And again.
4:1:1

Top 8.

4fin - The Zoo guy again. He is very nice but his deck has almost no chance. I kill him twice quickly.

2fin - Merfolk. Without black this time. In the first one I mulled into five - 3 elves, forest, glimps. He had no counters... Last game of the day was another epic - he had a huge board - I wished for Masticore and he attacked (I am at 3) he was probably thinking its the game but I managed to block and only mishra gets through killing one of his lords. I am at 1. And another attack when his lord runs into Masticore again and then... He has nothing. Only mind harnessed quirion. He didnt draw anything else and I claim the final.
Quirion has been amazing. Returning redundant lands and thus keeping Masticore alive. Urzas Destiny rare has been just awesome. I dont know how old are you but I remeber times of type II Trinity Green when it was THE DECK smashing everyone. Every other player here doesent know it. Or better they think they know it.

fin - He is a frined and its too late anyway. BW Tempo wouldnt be a problem I belive. So we split and I am listed as a winner.


It was great tourney. I never wished for Tstodon. I am not sure how good it is aginst enchantments. Thera are lot of aggro decks here in Prague and I hate loosing against merfolk. This deck is simply great. And imho its the best deck right now. Thanks to K2thej again.

Tom

Congrats on the win Tom! Great to hear!

zealot has already taken terastodon's place in my board for the same reason. Never went for him. Discussion was a few pages back.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Wishes are great, and I would advise moving the cradle to the board to save MD spots.

I have never wished for eternal witness in all my testing, so I removed it. Test it and see but I never found her useful.


My other question still stands. What is the ideal number of wishes to run, provided I choose to run them...? 2? 3? Just fine as a singleton?

That leads to my second question: What creatures are a necessity to have in a wish board?

I'll probably drop Witness for a Viridian Shaman, for when Zealot just won't do the job.

Edit: k2thej, have you tested Land Grant? If so, what were your experiences with it? What makes you disregard it?

[k2thej]

My other question still stands. What is the ideal number of wishes to run, provided I choose to run them...? 2? 3? Just fine as a singleton?

That leads to my second question: What creatures are a necessity to have in a wish board?

I'll probably drop Witness for a Viridian Shaman, for when Zealot just won't do the job.

Edit: k2thej, have you tested Land Grant? If so, what were your experiences with it? What makes you disregard it?

I find 3 to be optimal, which is why I run 3 in my build.

Regal and Emrakul are def musts. the other creatures I run in the board I have found to all be awesome, but there are always other possibilities for the spots depending on what you like. My current side is:

4 leyline
4 thorn
1 emrakul
1 warcaller
1 shaman
1 zealot
1 masticore
1 cradle
1 regal force

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I find 3 to be optimal, which is why I run 3 in my build.

Regal and Emrakul are def musts. the other creatures I run in the board I have found to all be awesome, but there are always other possibilities for the spots depending on what you like. My current side is:

4 leyline
4 thorn
1 emrakul
1 warcaller
1 shaman
1 zealot
1 masticore
1 cradle
1 regal force

Under what conditions do you decide to board in your Cradle?


Of those creatures you listed, in what order would you say they are most likely wished for, most to least. I'd assume:

Regal Force, Warcaller, Emrakul, Zealot

If I toss Regal and Warcaller on the side, that opens to spots mainboard for the 2 extra wishes. I like that, but paying an extra 2 for Regal Force makes me a little nervous. I guess I just need to shut up and test...

[k2thej]

Under what conditions do you decide to board in your Cradle?


Of those creatures you listed, in what order would you say they are most likely wished for, most to least. I'd assume:

Regal Force, Warcaller, Emrakul, Zealot

If I toss Regal and Warcaller on the side, that opens to spots mainboard for the 2 extra wishes. I like that, but paying an extra 2 for Regal Force makes me a little nervous. I guess I just need to shut up and test...

You dont board in cradle you wish for it

I play a regal and warcaller main and one of each in the board as well. It works great.

[DrHealex]

Edit: k2thej, have you tested Land Grant? If so, what were your experiences with it? What makes you disregard it?

Land grant is nothing more than the poor man's fetchland in this deck. It also suffers the sever drawback of showing your opponent your hand... if it's vs blue they can easily decide if its worth countering and possibly recking your day, or perhaps some other deck will be able to pick apart the particular weakness of your revealed hand.

[Hawdes]

Forgot to mention that I run dryad arbor in place of one forest, since I run 4 GSZ main...
So fetching out forests and adding green from my cradles usually ain't a problem.
But I really don't want to start a debate which will result in nothing useful :)
I'm comfortable with my build as is, and it's not running summoner's pact. It's currently running GSZ and wish.

[catmint]

Forgot to mention that I run dryad arbor in place of one forest, since I run 4 GSZ main...
So fetching out forests and adding green from my cradles usually ain't a problem.
But I really don't want to start a debate which will result in nothing useful :)
I'm comfortable with my build as is, and it's not running summoner's pact. It's currently running GSZ and wish.

I also tested a build with GSZ, and I found it useful in some "non-combo/pre-combo" situations. However the big disadvatages when comboing off made me change my mind:
1) you have to spend 1 mana more
2) you don't get the elf in your hand so you cannot draw a card with glimpse...

[InResponseForceOfWill]

You dont board in cradle you wish for it

Oh yah. Duh.



It also suffers the sever drawback of showing your opponent your hand... if it's vs blue they can easily decide if its worth countering and possibly recking your day, or perhaps some other deck will be able to pick apart the particular weakness of your revealed hand.

Very true. I'll likely drop it.



Next question: What about a singleton of Taunting Elf in the wish board?

[k2thej]

Oh yah. Duh.




Very true. I'll likely drop it.



Next question: What about a singleton of Taunting Elf in the wish board?

If taunting elf had haste that would be a really great inclusion. I'm not sure how viable he will be since you have to wait a turn to attack though.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

k2thej you never fail to respond. You must sleep with this thread open and have it set up to emit an audible alert to let you know someone's posted. You're gunna turn into an elf... :)



If taunting elf had haste that would be a really great inclusion. I'm not sure how viable he will be since you have to wait a turn to attack though.


Yah but I run 2x Concordant Crossroads. Only wish for it when you have one on the board.


Also, I saw someone running Gaea's Herald instead of Leyline on the side. Seemed interesting but likely it's inferior. Thoughts?

The same guy ran 4x Essence Warden. I'm sure it's fun, but I wouldn't ever find room for it...

[k2thej]

k2thej you never fail to respond. You must sleep with this thread open and have it set up to emit an audible alert to let you know someone's posted. You're gunna turn into an elf... :)





Yah but I run 2x Concordant Crossroads. Only wish for it when you have one on the board.


Also, I saw someone running Gaea's Herald instead of Leyline on the side. Seemed interesting but likely it's inferior. Thoughts?

The same guy ran 4x Essence Warden. I'm sure it's fun, but I wouldn't ever find room for it...

Yes, yes, I know, I am obsessed with this thread. We can move beyond this and continue discussion now.

The reason I think concordant Crossroads is not a good idea:
-one less creature when you are comboing for each copy you run
-doesn't actually help the combo since mana isn't the issue, it is cards, so it is essentially just a win condition
-The deck is designed with creatures that have abilities you can use the turn they come into play (heritage, birchlore, quirion, symbiote) so that you don't need haste. This is a big advantage of this deck; it plays like the creatures have haste without actually giving it to them. A card that gives all creatures haste is pretty much a wasted spot in this deck unless you want to use it as your wincon, but as discussion has shown, there are better options for that.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Yes, yes, I know, I am obsessed with this thread. We can move beyond this and continue discussion now.


K, sorry, I'm done. It's just very amusing.



The reason I think concordant Crossroads is not a good idea:
-one less creature when you are comboing for each copy you run
-doesn't actually help the combo since mana isn't the issue, it is cards, so it is essentially just a win condition
-The deck is designed with creatures that have abilities you can use the turn they come into play (heritage, birchlore, quirion, symbiote) so that you don't need haste. This is a big advantage of this deck; it plays like the creatures have haste without actually giving it to them. A card that gives all creatures haste is pretty much a wasted spot in this deck unless you want to use it as your wincon, but as discussion has shown, there are better options for that.

I see...

Hmm, well if I drop the Concordants', I don't know how I'd feel about running Priest of Titania/Archdruid. Seems haste is necessary for those. Would either of those still be valid main board choices without Crossroads?

Also, I posted above:

I saw someone running Gaea's Herald instead of Leyline on the side. Seemed interesting, but likely it's inferior. Am I right? Thoughts?

[k2thej]

K, sorry, I'm done. It's just very amusing.




I see...

Hmm, well if I drop the Concordants', I don't know how I'd feel about running Priest of Titania/Archdruid. Seems haste is necessary for those. Would either of those still be valid main board choices without Crossroads?

Also, I posted above:

I saw someone running Gaea's Herald instead of Leyline on the side. Seemed interesting, but likely it's inferior. Am I right? Thoughts?

They are both still valid since both can set up a turn 3 combo. I find archdruid more valid since he can also let you go aggro. It's debatable though, I was toying around with the idea of running more warcallers main instead of archdruids, but ultimately the archdruids prove more reliable.

Gaea's Herald has the advantage of not hurting the combo when it is sided in, but it can be countered. If you want to go that route, vexing shusher is the better option

Also, your username owns.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I'm looking at your SB here:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

I think it's interesting that you run a Warcaller in the MB and the SB. I'd likely drop the one on the side for a Elvish Champion. The global forestwalk ability seems it'd be a nice thing to wish for against decks running green.

Also, what's with the Masticore? Do you just use it for the 2cc 1 dmg abililty? I'm probably overlooking something. Do you wish him out often? Under what circumstances and against what?

[46nTool]

I really like this deck after watching some worlds games. if you guys had to pick one which is the most consistent deck list?

[k2thej]

I'm looking at your SB here:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

I think it's interesting that you run a Warcaller in the MB and the SB. I'd likely drop the one on the side for a Elvish Champion. The global forestwalk ability seems it'd be a nice thing to wish for against decks running green.

Also, what's with the Masticore? Do you just use it for the 2cc 1 dmg abililty? I'm probably overlooking something. Do you wish him out often? Under what circumstances and against what?

A lord in the side is necessary, and while elvish champion's forestwalk ability is super awesome, I like being able to make warcaller a lord, or use it to turn living wish into a 3 CMC creature in order to continue comboing when necessary, then I can bounce it with a symbiote and recast it as a lord.

Masticore kills creatures that stop you from winning such as peacekeeper, blazing archon, and the like. He is there to make sure you don't have to scoop against these creatures because we do not have any removal.



@46nTool- Generally there is debate between my list and Nihil's list as to which is the most consistent. Other good variants tend to be very close to our lists. I have been very happy to hear a great number of successful tournament reports from players using my list (like the one on the previous page). I'd love for these to continue!

[46nTool]

using your deck as a template i sorta changed it to a budget version for 125 bucks. did i take any crucial pieces out?

Deck List
Artifact
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Green
4 x Birchlore Rangers
3 x Elvish Archdruid
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Glimpse of Nature
4 x Heritage Druid
1 x Joraga Warcaller
4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Regal Force
4 x Summoner's Pact
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
Land
14 x Forest

[InResponseForceOfWill]

A lord in the side is necessary, and while elvish champion's forestwalk ability is super awesome, I like being able to make warcaller a lord, or use it to turn living wish into a 3 CMC creature in order to continue comboing when necessary, then I can bounce it with a symbiote and recast it as a lord.

Masticore kills creatures that stop you from winning such as peacekeeper, blazing archon, and the like. He is there to make sure you don't have to scoop against these creatures because we do not have any removal.


Ahh, yesss. Excellent points. Makes total sense. Before I go out and buy a Masticore, what other creatures could fill this same spot, if any?

[k2thej]

using your deck as a template i sorta changed it to a budget version for 125 bucks. did i take any crucial pieces out?

Deck List
Artifact
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Green
4 x Birchlore Rangers
3 x Elvish Archdruid
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Glimpse of Nature
4 x Heritage Druid
1 x Joraga Warcaller
4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Regal Force
4 x Summoner's Pact
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
Land
14 x Forest

Looks like a solid budget version to me

@FOW- any sort of removal can, usual either Masticore or Molten-tail Masticore, but I find Masticore to be the better option since you don't need creatures in your graveyard to use him and you can ping smaller guys for less mana.

[Koplinchen]

Masticor is definetly one of the best creatures in the side. It is hard to kill (like Steven Segal) and it can give you and edge against creature decks.

This deck is really super consistent. You basicaly run only glimpse and creatures and tutor for creatures. Since this deck doesent run Priest of Titania you need to see only one land all game.

I hope I will be able to report about other glorious victories of this awesome deck.

43 players and Prague's meta:
http://www.cernyrytir.cz/index.php3?akce=2001&ukcl=126

[1maarten1]

Masticor is definetly one of the best creatures in the side. It is hard to kill (like Steven Segal) and it can give you and edge against creature decks.

This deck is really super consistent. You basicaly run only glimpse and creatures and tutor for creatures. Since this deck doesent run Priest of Titania you need to see only one land all game.

I hope I will be able to report about other glorious victories of this awesome deck.

43 players and Prague's meta:
http://www.cernyrytir.cz/index.php3?akce=2001&ukcl=126

Looks like the list post 1 page back? The winner even posted a report ;)!

[TossUsToLions]

I apologize for my ignorance, but how does this deck win without Glimpse of Nature? I randomly threw a list together on Cockatrice after playing aggro elves for over two years and I don't understand what you do while you wait to draw a Glimpse. Once you do, what do you do if it is countered? The backup is a solid swarm strategy, but if you don't have Glimpse in the starting hand then it seems like the aggro plan would get steamrolled by decks like Zoo and Goblins.

I understand that the deck puts up pretty good results, so I must be missing something here...

[Elvish Visionary]

@TossUsToLions: you can use Elvish Visionary as a back-up to work through your deck with the interaction between wirewood symbiote while you find the glimpse to get rolling.

[Waikiki]

or tutor for any other bomb like regal force ;)

[catmint]

I apologize for my ignorance, but how does this deck win without Glimpse of Nature? I randomly threw a list together on Cockatrice after playing aggro elves for over two years and I don't understand what you do while you wait to draw a Glimpse. Once you do, what do you do if it is countered? The backup is a solid swarm strategy, but if you don't have Glimpse in the starting hand then it seems like the aggro plan would get steamrolled by decks like Zoo and Goblins.

I understand that the deck puts up pretty good results, so I must be missing something here...

with 1st turn mana elf & quiron 2nd turn or birchlore/heritage & nettle you are very often able to play a lot of elves turn 2 (if you dont have glimpse).you put pressure on your opponent aggro which makes him think & react/respond. Then you can top-deck a lot of good thing like glimpse, whish, lord, symbiote, visionary.

Symbiote is a great card because in these games and a must kill for most opponents because:
- bounce visionary to draw cards,
- protect important elves
- block & bounce
- supports the combo by bouncing & untapping for mana

I think the good thing vs. Zoo/Goblin type decks is that they always have to worry not to get another turn and therefore focus on killing some elves, which hurts us not that much as it slows them down.

[Waikiki]

Is there any primer for this deck about opening hands and sideboarding strategy ? I seem to be missing this kind of intel. We all can make a list tuned to our prefference. Playing the deck is where is gets harder imo.

[46nTool]

has anyone thought of using priest of titania with a lighting greaves in the deck?
edit: and possibly elvish spirit guide?

[k2thej]

has anyone thought of using priest of titania with a lighting greaves in the deck?
edit: and possibly elvish spirit guide?

Strength of the deck lies in not relying on drawing any one specific card. This is why Priests/Archdruids have taken a backseat strategy in the builds. Playing priest is already a wasted lord spot, and then on top of that you also need to draw lightning greaves to make her useful, but if you have greaves without priest it is a dead card, and if you have priest you will generally wish it was an archdruid.

@TossUsToLions: It is actually quite rare that you go 3 turns without seeing a glimpse if you are trying to maximize your card draw with visionaries or dump your hand to cast a regal force. That being said, when it does happen, there are many aggro plays you can make. Here is the most common one I make, or something similar to this depending on what I have in hand.

Turn 1- Land, llanowar
Turn 2- Quirion, Heritage, bounce forest to untap llanowar, replay forest, Tap 3 elves for GGG, summon Elvish Archdruid and play him with floating mana, play another guy with the untapped forest.
Turn 3- Tap Archdruid to pay for pact. Tap forest to play another dude, Bounce it to untap archdruid. Play another dude if you have one with the other forest. Swing for 10.
Turn 4- Play any more guys you have or summon another lord to play, swing for 12 or more.

Turn 4 is an aggro clock that is the same speed as Zoo. This deck is very capable of out aggroing zoo, goblins, merfolk, and pretty much anything else.

[Beautiful-Decay]

Hello k2thej.

I wan't say thanks for your advice about the Mutavault (with a few more games it also seems useless.) It has been replaced by a fetch land since 3 normal lands seems enough and more basics hurt our glimpse-draw chances of hitting a land. I'm happy though it was the only thing you found weird in the list ;b I would love if anyone else also would give my list a look. (I'm about to buy the rest of the cards and would love to save some money on wasted cards. ;))

Lands:
Wooded Foothills x1
Misty Rainforest x2
Windswept Heath x2
Verdant Catacombs x1
Savannah x1
Forest x3
Penalhaven x1
Gaea's Cradle x4
Horizon Canopy x1
-----16-----

Creatures:
Heritage Druid x4
Llanowar Elves x2
Fynhorn Elf x2
Arbor Elf x2
Quirion Ranger x2
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Elvish Visionary x4
Viridian Zealot x1
Wirewood Symbiote x4
Regal Force x1
Eternal Witness x1
-----31-----


Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x4
Summoner's Pact x4
Living Wish x3
Grapeshot x1
Crop Rotation x1
-----13-----
Deck size:
-----60-----

SB (Might need fixing):
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Viridian Zealot
x1 Emrakul, The Aeons Thorn
x4 Leyline of Lifeforce
x4 Thorn of Amethyst
x1 Caller of Claws
x1 Joraga Warcaller
-----13-----
Deck + SB
-----73-----

I must admit, I miss somekind of card in the SB that keeps my combo going (like an elvish visionary or something? anyone share the same feeling. 3 wishes just feels like alot of all of them are looking upon a "protection card."

I'll might give the 3 cradles a try and move one to SB also to make a wish-target. After all, my rotation is able to switch a Gaea's in if needed.Maybe two rotations would be to much for the deck. Alot of questions equals... More testing ;)

Would adding blue hurt the deck? just been thinking about it a few times...

What would it add to the deck:
Basicly I feel that we could replace a few if not all visionarys with coiling Oracles. Oracles seems VERY powerful to me. They can add free lands unto the battlefield. Which means a Brainstorm turns into free spell that draws you 3 cards if you have a land (after the 3 cards added) in your hand and a Oracle. Since you can put the land back on top with the spell and play the Oracle to put it onto the battlefield. It also makes our Fetch lands gain functions besides thinning the deck. And would be nice to "cheat a Horizon Canopy or Gaea's Cradle into play." and after just return the Oracle to the hand with a Wirewood Symbiote and add another land to the battlefield etc. (or if a creature is needed just trigger a fetch lands and draw a "non Brainstorm--mordified card instead".)

-Coiling Oracles good sides: They turn lands hit by their "comes onto the battlefield effect" into mana = fuel to the deck. (if not draws (Horizon Canopy.)
-Coiling Oracles bad sides: They reveal the card which hurt us against dredge (more specificly Cabal Therapy) and can land our second gaea's cradle which destroy our own. (The chances of this will ofc be reduces alot of brainstorm and other engines is added.)

The way our blue mana could be added onto the deck could be:
add 4 Arbor elves in the deck in place of the Llanowar elves. (may untap a forest = Tropical islands) + Our Birchlore Elves can add any colour (which includes blue ofc.) combined with the Fetch lands ofc.

[k2thej]

Hello k2thej.

I wan't say thanks for your advice about the Mutavault (with a few more games it also seems useless.) It has been replaced by a fetch land since 3 normal lands seems enough and more basics hurt our glimpse-draw chances of hitting a land. I'm happy though it was the only thing you found weird in the list ;b I would love if anyone else also would give my list a look. (I'm about to buy the rest of the cards and would love to save some money on wasted cards. ;))

Lands:
Wooded Foothills x1
Misty Rainforest x2
Windswept Heath x2
Verdant Catacombs x1
Savannah x1
Forest x3
Penalhaven x1
Gaea's Cradle x4
Horizon Canopy x1
-----16-----

Creatures:
Heritage Druid x4
Llanowar Elves x2
Fynhorn Elf x2
Arbor Elf x2
Quirion Ranger x2
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Elvish Visionary x4
Viridian Zealot x1
Wirewood Symbiote x4
Regal Force x1
Eternal Witness x1
-----31-----


Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x4
Summoner's Pact x4
Living Wish x3
Grapeshot x1
Crop Rotation x1
-----13-----
Deck size:
-----60-----

SB (Might need fixing):
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Viridian Zealot
x1 Emrakul, The Aeons Thorn
x4 Leyline of Lifeforce
x4 Thorn of Amethyst
x1 Caller of Claws
x1 Joraga Warcaller
-----13-----
Deck + SB
-----73-----

I must admit, I miss somekind of card in the SB that keeps my combo going (like an elvish visionary or something? anyone share the same feeling. 3 wishes just feels like alot of all of them are looking upon a "protection card."

I'll might give the 3 cradles a try and move one to SB also to make a wish-target. After all, my rotation is able to switch a Gaea's in if needed.Maybe two rotations would be to much for the deck. Alot of questions equals... More testing ;)

Would Blue be a bad add to the deck?
I was just tinkering with a friend of mine the other day. We REALLY like our fuel. (which is why we keep it green only - to not lose speed.)
But then he kept talking about blue and after all some of his opinions was interesting:
- Replace or add Coiling Oracles instead or combined with elvish visionary then I would be able to "cheat extra land-fuel (Cradles etc.) into play (to outweight the lost blue-search cards). Then ofc' just replace the Llanowar Elfs with Arbor Elfs (untaps Tropical Island that can produce the needed blue) and Birchlore Rangers also adds the blue.And well to land Horizon canopys instead that can turn "your dead-land card" into card-fuel because it comes into play instead of the hand with Oracles could be funny combined with Symbiotes and brainstorms. The question is just (how will it add any speed to the deck besides more deck search and can the extra land drops etc. add up for the loss of speed (mana used on the spells.)


Haha I mean it's not the ONLY thing. I do think cradles (especially 3 or 4), witness, running multiple wincons, arbor elf instead of more llanowar, and horizon canopy are generally suboptimal MD in combo, but you can see how it tests.

I don't want people to take this the wrong way, but I generally think that any differences from my list are less sub optimal. I think this because I tried to make my build as efficient and consistent as it could possible be. If I thought a change that someone suggested was better than what I had, I would obviously make the change in my build, so clearly I think the changes to your list should essentially move it to mine, but again, test it and see what you like.

Coiling oracle would be great, so would mask of the mimic. The problem is generating blue mid combo. Tapping 2 elves for birchlore is far from optimal when you want to be tapping them for heritage and are often tight with the numbers you can tap. Lands are also usually tapped out so the blue couldn't really come from then except at the start. I thought about this for a while too though.

[ZeinVoncy]

Just out of curiosity, I'm not new to Elf Combo, I saw it's first days of creation when Glimpse was first printed and Legacy was still considered Type 1.5, but I am new to piloting it. I just recently acquired key components of the deck (all but Pact of Summoning), but since it's capable, why not consider using Biorhythm? Sometimes it kills your opponent, other times it'll put them well within killing range and see minimal hindrance to yourself.

[k2thej]

Just out of curiosity, I'm not new to Elf Combo, I saw it's first days of creation when Glimpse was first printed and Legacy was still considered Type 1.5, but I am new to piloting it. I just recently acquired key components of the deck (all but Pact of Summoning), but since it's capable, why not consider using Biorhythm? Sometimes it kills your opponent, other times it'll put them well within killing range and see minimal hindrance to yourself.

It is possible, but it is a less secure win than Emrakul, stormkills, and banefire, so there isn't much of a reason to use it over them.

[Hawdes]

Haha I mean it's not the ONLY thing. I do think cradles (especially 3 or 4), witness, running multiple wincons, arbor elf instead of more llanowar, and horizon canopy are generally suboptimal MD in combo, but you can see how it tests.

I don't want people to take this the wrong way, but I generally think that any differences from my list are less sub optimal. I think this because I tried to make my build as efficient and consistent as it could possible be. If I thought a change that someone suggested was better than what I had, I would obviously make the change in my build, so clearly I think the changes to your list should essentially move it to mine, but again, test it and see what you like.

Coiling oracle would be great, so would mask of the mimic. The problem is generating blue mid combo. Tapping 2 elves for birchlore is far from optimal when you want to be tapping them for heritage and are often tight with the numbers you can tap. Lands are also usually tapped out so the blue couldn't really come from then except at the start. I thought about this for a while too though.

I just have to say my two cents here... I've been browsing this thread aswell as all other elf-deck threads, and I must say that whatever plan you go with, it comes down to personal play style. I would say that each archtype has it's pros and cons... The "Glass Cannon" elf combo deck which we see posted here from k2thej is really damn fast and consistent.
I've tested it and it's good, but it still has that glass cannon factor which I do not like, and that's my own opinion and I'm not trying to project it onto anyone else.
It's a good deck/list and if you want to win fast and pretty consistent, it's the way to go.
But I'd rather be playing GSZ since it offers more stability (read not a glass cannon) overall and in my test games, with my list, it has been promising.

I've seen the discussion between the front figure posters here and the builds, and as said, they have pros and cons. :)
This is not a rant, I just felt that I had to speak up when someone is so "confident" that their list is the best, when it really comes down to personal preferences and play style.

[k2thej]

I just have to say my two cents here... I've been browsing this thread aswell as all other elf-deck threads, and I must say that whatever plan you go with, it comes down to personal play style. I would say that each archtype has it's pros and cons... The "Glass Cannon" elf combo deck which we see posted here from k2thej is really damn fast and consistent.
I've tested it and it's good, but it still has that glass cannon factor which I do not like, and that's my own opinion and I'm not trying to project it onto anyone else.
It's a good deck/list and if you want to win fast and pretty consistent, it's the way to go.
But I'd rather be playing GSZ since it offers more stability (read not a glass cannon) overall and in my test games, with my list, it has been promising.

I've seen the discussion between the front figure posters here and the builds, and as said, they have pros and cons. :)
This is not a rant, I just felt that I had to speak up when someone is so "confident" that their list is the best, when it really comes down to personal preferences and play style.

I completely agree with you Hawdes. I wasn't trying to get across that my list is the best, I was trying to get across that I THINK my list is the best. I was just saying this because when people ask for my advice on a decklist, it is obviously going to be me pushing them towards the list that I think is the best, which is obviously the list I would want to play. There is a lot of debate but I was just commenting on the fact that everyone tends to think their list is the best since that is obviously the reason they want to play that list over others. The reason for this was to avoid me giving redundant posts responding to anyone who asks for decklist comments.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

k2thej, have you ever tested Staff of Domination as a win condition? If so, how did it perform for you, and what was your final opinion?

[catmint]

Since we discuss the same things all over again, I hope you find it good to talk about some specific questions concerning mulligan (k2thej's list):

all hands in game 1 against unknown.
Would like to hear your thoughts like
"clear mulligan", "would keep if.... "
"keep & my gameplan is to.... "

Hand 1:
forest, wirewood, glimpse, wish, pact, pact, archdruid

Hand 2:
fetchland, archdruid, heritage, heritage, visionary, regal force, pact

Hand 3:
forest, fetchland, fetchland, symbiote, symbiote, quirion, fyndhorn

Hand 4:
forest, fetchland, fetchland, birchlore, wish, regal force, glimpse

Hand 5:
4 fetchlands, glimplse, pact, birchlore

Hand 6:
2 fetchlands, forest, fyndhorn, wirewood, birchlore, birchlore

Hand 6:
forest, forest, fetchland, heritage, heritage, birchlore, pact


I would also find it interesting to post certain spots, where we can dicuss about what the best play is:
i.e:
- I play g1 vs. counter-top and face a decision in turn 2
- I start in Turn 1 with mana-elf
- Opponent plays SD.top
- After the draw our hand is: fyndhorn, nettle, pact, visionary, regal force, wish

what's your gameplan from here on? what are the different routes you would go for?


I think in general having a discussions in this direction can make us all better players and is more valuable than philosophizing about decklists.

[k2thej]

This is a great idea to further discussion catmint. Here is what I would do, though a lot of the gameplan does depend on what you draw



Hand 1:
forest, wirewood, glimpse, wish, pact, pact, archdruid

Keep. I know it seems bad at first, but you need to top deck any one drop elf in your deck to make it work, so the probability is overwhelmingly in your favor. Gameplan would be straight combo, likely on turn 3. You play the elf, turn 2 you wish a cradle, turn 3 you combo.


Hand 2:
fetchland, archdruid, heritage, heritage, visionary, regal force, pact

Keep. Fetch turn one, play heritage. Turn two play either the other heritage or if you drew another land summon nettle and cast archdruid. From there it is pretty straightforward. A lot of this depends on your draw though, for example, if you drew a glimpse then you would play visionary turn 2 to set up turn 3 combo if you drew a land.


Hand 3:
forest, fetchland, fetchland, symbiote, symbiote, quirion, fyndhorn

Mull. No card draw, no aggro option, no tutors.


Hand 4:
forest, fetchland, fetchland, birchlore, wish, regal force, glimpse

Keep. In general if the only thing you are missing to combo is more one drops, then keep the hand, you will almost always get them. Not to mention you can wish a warcaller into your hand one turn 2 so you have at least one guarenteed for turn 3, plus the likely draws you will make. This hand will work out.


Hand 5:
4 fetchlands, glimplse, pact, birchlore

Risky, but keep. t1 birchlore, turn 2 glimpse, summon nettle, drop as many one drops as you can. If you see a pact or a ranger you can go off, and if you don't then it is very likely you will still be able to pay pact and go aggro. Like I said, it's risky, but you already have 4 lands in hand so you have a low prob of hitting more within the first few draws. I say go for it.


Hand 6:
2 fetchlands, forest, fyndhorn, wirewood, birchlore, birchlore

Essentially the same situation as hand 3. No card draw, no aggro option, no tutors. You shouldn't plan on waiting for these.


Hand 7:
forest, forest, fetchland, heritage, heritage, birchlore, pact

Keep. T1 heritage. T2 heritage, birchlore, float GG and pact for either archdruid or visionary depending on what you saw in your first draw.



@FOW- it's not really a wincon it just tries to help you combo, but I think it is not as good as cloudstone curio for that job, and I don't think running that card is worth it either. Maximize your one drop count! haha.

[catmint]

Hand 1:
forest, wirewood, glimpse, wish, pact, pact, archdruid

Keep. I know it seems bad at first, but you need to top deck any one drop elf in your deck to make it work, so the probability is overwhelmingly in your favor. Gameplan would be straight combo, likely on turn 3. You play the elf, turn 2 you wish a cradle, turn 3 you combo.

interesting:the elf that you need to draw must be a mana elf... otherwise you don't have 2 mana to wish for cradle. ...or am i missing something



Hand 5:
4 fetchlands, glimplse, pact, birchlore

Risky, but keep. t1 birchlore, turn 2 glimpse, summon nettle, drop as many one drops as you can. If you see a pact or a ranger you can go off, and if you don't then it is very likely you will still be able to pay pact and go aggro. Like I said, it's risky, but you already have 4 lands in hand so you have a low prob of hitting more within the first few draws. I say go for it.

wow... I am going to goldfish that one. I feel we too often loose the game if you pact here in t2. Not to mention that someone might kill/remove birchlore in response to our nettle. Thought this one is a mulligan.

[Lillinux]

Hello everyone,
somebody have seen the decklist of Gerry Thompson on SCG Washington DC?
It's a GWB Elves combo., but the question is: black for what???

[k2thej]

interesting:the elf that you need to draw must be a mana elf... otherwise you don't have 2 mana to wish for cradle. ...or am i missing something


wow... I am going to goldfish that one. I feel we too often loose the game if you pact here in t2. Not to mention that someone might kill/remove birchlore in response to our nettle. Thought this one is a mulligan.

Ya if I was up against burn or zoo I def wouldn't go for the t2 combo. It's dependent on the matchup, but in general I go for those things.

You could draw a mana elf or a land, so you have quite a few cards that will allow you to do this.

@Lillinux- haven't seen it, post a link if you find one I'd love to take a look.

[Lillinux]

@k2thej : I haven't seen it too and i'm looking for it.
In a report , in this forum (about zoo), there is a guy who have played agiant him.
I found only the top16 decklist, this list is in top32...grrr.

[catmint]

I found this gwb elve combo list which is not the one you are looking for
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36806

This list looks like Gerrys first draft...
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21196_One_Step_Ahead_of_Legacy_Brewing.html

...
I also once thougth about having black for thoughtseize in an attempt to build a vintage version, however never really tested it.
.. I can't imagine that it works about to sacrifice that much of your combo for thoughtseize, but apparently it does.

I also feel it is very vulnerable to land destruction... altought the list plays more lands, you would still keep a 1 land hand. Fetch forbayou to cast thoughtseize. ..you see a wasteland and your odds are very bad.

[k2thej]

I found this gwb elve combo list which is not the one you are looking for
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36806

Think i found the list your looking for here (scroll down a bit)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21196_One_Step_Ahead_of_Legacy_Brewing.html

I'm not a premium member or whatever, could you post the lists?

[Lillinux]

I found this gwb elve combo list which is not the one you are looking for
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36806

Think i found the list your looking for here (scroll down a bit)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21196_One_Step_Ahead_of_Legacy_Brewing.html

May be the second is the answer to my dreams.. but i'm not a premium member, so i cannot see the decklist.:frown:

[1maarten1]

May be the second is the answer to my dreams.. but i'm not a premium member, so i cannot see the decklist.:frown:

I saw the coverage of Gerry Thompson's list in round 5. He was 4-0, got paired against Enchantress which he won 2-1, 5-0 record and he proceeded to lose to the Zoo deck with GSZ, and then lost to Goblins in round 7. (thats when I went to sleep)

His list had the basic combo, Entity as finisher (fetch + savannah in the manabase for that)
The black was really tech: He had Vengevine's in his board, and as black tech card: Burried Alive to get 3 vengevine in the grave at once. (I dont really like it, but I guess its possible)

He ran Crop Rotation + Gaea's Cradle main, which isnt very surprising seeing his kill is Mirror Entity.

Something else on his MD: He ran 4 Fauna shaman and from what I saw in the round vs Chantress they were doing great. Some sick stuff with quirrion happened ;).

I dont have access to the premium decklist either but I think the things I said above will give you a clear view on what his list was like.

Hope to have informed you :). I am still currently switching between oldschool Chord + Entity lists and the Wish list. Both have been performing well :) Ill take the deck to a big tournament next month so Ill test alot more =).

I currently use the following sb:
4 Leyline
4 Thorn
1 Emrakul
1 Masticore
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Wasteland (For glacial chasm/tabernacle etc I prefer this over Terastodon)
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Ezuri Renegade, Leader (I like to be able to wish for Trample along side Warcaller MD)
1 Regal Force

My MD is the same as K2thej's exept I went -1 Archdruid +1 Viridian Shaman to have a better chance vs Affinity and Stax and such with Shaman + Symbiote shenanigans.

Lemme know what you think!

~Maarten

[Lillinux]

I suppose Black is in not only fo Buried Alive, cause there is Intuition that can do the same effect at istant speed and better!!
Probably he use black also in side

[catmint]

Here the content from the article (link) I posted above. As I said I think it is a draft (without SB) and not a list of a tournament

Elves
A Legacy deck, by C.Santiago
1st place at a Magic Online Daily Event tournament in Magic Online on 2011-02-27

Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Vengevine
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Instants
2 Summoner's Pact

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
5 Forest

Lands
3 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs

Legendary Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard:

1 Essence Warden
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Glowrider
2 Viridian Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Duress
3 Natural Order
1 Thoughtseize


This Elf deck is cool because it's more Matt Nass/Wrapter-style than the other, scatterbrained MTGO lists. I like Thoughtseize but not sure if cutting Intuition and leaving in Vengevines is correct. Mirror Entity seems much better than Emrakul unless you're specifically trying to hate out Painter. Naturally drawing that guy or even tutoring for it with Fauna Shaman seems pretty insane when you have Gaea's Cradle in your deck.

I would clean up the list and play something like this:

Elves
Featured by Gerry Thompson on 2011-02-27 (Legacy)
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/21196.html
Print this deck!
Maindeck:

Creatures
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Mirror Entity
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Instants
1 Crop Rotation


Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard options:

Mindbreak Trap

Krosan Grip/Reverent Silence

Vengevine

Intuition (with a mana base change naturally)

Burrenton Forge-Tender (maybe one maindeck)

Natural Order/Progenitus

Venser, Shaper Savant

Crop Rotation seems better than the third Cradle by a large margin. The Llanowar Elves and clones work particularly well with Quirion Ranger, so I don't know why you'd skimp on those effects.

[1maarten1]

I suppose Black is in not only fo Buried Alive, cause there is Intuition that can do the same effect at istant speed and better!!
Probably he use black also in side

Sorry I forgot something! Burried alives and Vengevines were in the side, alongside with Thoughtseize/duress!

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Has anyone here tested Joraga Treespeaker? Might be slow off the bat, but after it gets the lvl counter... I dunno, maybe my newb is showing.

I searched the thread for "treespeaker" and yielded zero results.

[Lillinux]

Creatures
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Mirror Entity
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Instants
1 Crop Rotation


Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle

It's 58 cards. I suppose there is also 2 Birchlore Rangers (white mana it's very rare for mirror entity combo).
I will try this list whit - 1 bayou + 1 tropical .
In SB 2 intuition e 3 vengevine.

[Koby]

Has anyone here tested Joraga Treespeaker? Might be slow off the bat, but after it gets the lvl counter... I dunno, maybe my newb is showing.

I searched the thread for "treespeaker" and yielded zero results.

Treespeaker is much slower than traditional mana elf. You will have to invest 3 mana before you can tap for 2. I'd rather spend 1 and get 1 in return. Additionally, getting the 2nd mana is sometimes an issue, and results in having a blank 1/1 that does nothing. Note that having removal in response to level up ability is much much worse as you invest 3 mana and get 0 in return. For this reason, Treespeaker is not included or utilized.


<list>

It's 58 cards. I suppose there is also 2 Birchlore Rangers (white mana it's very rare for mirror entity combo).
I will try this list whit - 1 bayou + 1 tropical .
In SB 2 intuition e 3 vengevine.

I would recommend upping Llanowar slot to 7 total, as he is the best first play. The last slot, I would recommend testing out Masked Admirers to work with Fauna Shaman as a green-"Squee" effect. It helps against control matchups, and even helps you grind out against aggro decks (recurring blocker/cycler). In post-SB games, it also works well with Intuition/Buried Alive.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Treespeaker is much slower than traditional mana elf. You will have to invest 3 mana before you can tap for 2. I'd rather spend 1 and get 1 in return. Additionally, getting the 2nd mana is sometimes an issue, and results in having a blank 1/1 that does nothing. Note that having removal in response to level up ability is much much worse as you invest 3 mana and get 0 in return. For this reason, Treespeaker is not included or utilized.


Great points. I'm clear now. Thanks.

[Koby]

Elves
Featured by Gerry Thompson on 2011-02-27 (Legacy)
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/21196.html
Print this deck!
Maindeck:

Creatures
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Mirror Entity
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Instants
1 Crop Rotation


Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle


I tested something like this last nite, with the following changes:

-4 Heritage Druid
-4 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Regal Force
-1 Birchlore Ranger
-4 Elvish Visionary
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Crop Rotation
-4 Thoughtseize

+4 Vengevine
+4 Wild Mongrel
+4 Basking Rootwalla
+1 Masked Admirers
+1 Viridian Shaman (die Jitte, die!!!!)
+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Wasteland

plus a few helper cards. In 6 matches, my opponents conceded after the first game. Gentlemen, VV is dead. Long live VV! >:D

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I tested something like this last nite, with the following changes:

-4 Heritage Druid
-4 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Regal Force
-1 Birchlore Ranger
-4 Elvish Visionary
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Crop Rotation
-4 Thoughtseize

+4 Vengevine
+4 Wild Mongrel
+4 Basking Rootwalla
+1 Masked Admirers
+1 Viridian Shaman (die Jitte, die!!!!)
+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Wasteland

plus a few helper cards. In 6 matches, my opponents conceded after the first game. Gentlemen, VV is dead. Long live VV! >:D

uhhh, not to be rude, but you do realize this is the Elves Combo thread and not Madness, right...? In my opinion, you kinda lose the point when you drop 4x Heritage and 4x Nettle, as well as 4x Visionary. A deck like this is unique on its own and might be worthy of a post in the New and Developmental thread if you think it preforms well enough.


Back to Elves Combo: As far as a Wish Board goes, might it be a good choice to run 1x Wasteland incase you're staring down a Tabernacle, or simply to have as utility removal?

[k2thej]

uhhh, not to be rude, but you do realize this is the Elves Combo thread and not Madness, right...? In my opinion, you kinda lose the point when you drop 4x Heritage and 4x Nettle, as well as 4x Visionary. A deck like this is unique on its own and might be worthy of a post in the New and Developmental thread if you think it preforms well enough.


Back to Elves Combo: As far as a Wish Board goes, might it be a good choice to run 1x Wasteland incase you're staring down a Tabernacle, or simply to have as utility removal?

I tested that, and it works well, but it is a question of how you want to use that spot. Do you want to take away a spot that answers another threat to answer tabernacle? Meta-dependent choice.

[Koby]

@FOW: fair enough, and granted I only briefly tested it with VV back in the limelight. I will continue to test it with the Nettle/Heritage combo in place of the madness element, and do a test run with 2 Intuition and Wonder. I feel like this would still maintain the speed o Combo Elves and gain the explosiveness of VV. Reason being is that we have a rough time with CB/top and Firespout; which VV solves quite handily.

Compare this with the list that GerryT ran, and see the dependence on attack step to win. The added disruption of discard is a key innovation that may prove to be very useful. Without maindeck Emrakul it lacks the ability to answer quick decks, which VV also helps. Buried Alive is analogous to Intuition, but you lose Wonder.

SB option of NO/Pro is still viable for the SB.

One thing I found to be rather useful is casting Glimpse with Wild Mongrel out and not running out of discard fodder. This is ultinately a different deck, but still powerful.

[Darklingske]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, but not new in legacy and vintage. After several years of annoying people with Ichorid, I'm now searching and switching decks. Always combo or rogue and elves is a bit of both, so it has a natural likeness to me!
The list I'm using is very simular to k2thej's and overall I'm very happy with its performance. But... In my meta there is always a strong control part and especially the landstill MU is almost unwinnable in my testings. I need to be very lucky and my opponent very unlucky to win this MU. With a controlsuit consisting of PtE, StP, Moat, Humility, EE and counters, comboing is almost every time a No-Fly Zone. He likes it to let me build up and then an EE sees the day and ruins mine OR Moat rears its ugly head and by the time I find and can cast a Wish, humility has accompagnied Moat and it is GG. Anyone of you guys face the same problem? And if so, what is your plan against it?

[k2thej]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, but not new in legacy and vintage. After several years of annoying people with Ichorid, I'm now searching and switching decks. Always combo or rogue and elves is a bit of both, so it has a natural likeness to me!
The list I'm using is very simular to k2thej's and overall I'm very happy with its performance. But... In my meta there is always a strong control part and especially the landstill MU is almost unwinnable in my testings. I need to be very lucky and my opponent very unlucky to win this MU. With a controlsuit consisting of PtE, StP, Moat, Humility, EE and counters, comboing is almost every time a No-Fly Zone. He likes it to let me build up and then an EE sees the day and ruins mine OR Moat rears its ugly head and by the time I find and can cast a Wish, humility has accompagnied Moat and it is GG. Anyone of you guys face the same problem? And if so, what is your plan against it?

I've been thinking about this a lot as well. The wish build is great and I really like it, but the lost sideboard spots are definitely a downside. Without wish, you have room for 4 leyline, 4 thorn, 4 fecundity, and 3 grip. boarding in both Fecundity and leyline is crazy helpful in the landstill matchup. I think ultimately the wish build is more consistent, but it does lose these elements which are very helpful in matchups like landstill/dreadstill.

That being said, all my testing is in preparation for grand prix providence in May, so I will end up going with whatever I predict will be best for that meta.


Does anyone have any ideas of a creature we can run in the wishboard that can answer humility? I know there aren't many but if we can think of a relatively cheap one it might be worth it.

[Darklingske]

Does anyone have any ideas of a creature we can run in the wishboard that can answer humility? I know there aren't many but if we can think of a relatively cheap one it might be worth it.

The only one I know is Ulamog, the infinite Gyre. All the other creatures I found do it through CIP triggers and those do not longer work under Humility.

[k2thej]

The only one I know is Ulamog, the infinite Gyre. All the other creatures I found do it through CIP triggers and those do not longer work under Humility.

So I suppose the option is either race humility (which is what I do) or board grips.

[Darklingske]

I try to race and board in the grips also. But more often than not, to no vain...

[k2thej]

I try to race and board in the grips also. But more often than not, to no vain...

Ya I think if you board in the grips you are hurting your race plan too. I think we can be thankful it is not a very common card haha.

[Darklingske]

Ya I think if you board in the grips you are hurting your race plan too. I think we can be thankful it is not a very common card haha.

Indeed it is. Maybe it's best to just give up on this MU and concentrate on beating CB. Considering this, I like a variety in the CMC and therefore I'm testing a 2-of Bramblewood paragon. He is sweet if casted early in the game. It also makes aggro a bit easier.

[k2thej]

Indeed it is. Maybe it's best to just give up on this MU and concentrate on beating CB. Considering this, I like a variety in the CMC and therefore I'm testing a 2-of Bramblewood paragon. He is sweet if casted early in the game. It also makes aggro a bit easier.

I don't think we run nearly enough warriors to make him useful. Also, Leyline destroys CB. Once you board in Leylines it's not much of a game. This matchup is already in the bag as far as I'm concerned.

[Hawdes]

I've been thinking about this a lot as well. The wish build is great and I really like it, but the lost sideboard spots are definitely a downside. Without wish, you have room for 4 leyline, 4 thorn, 4 fecundity, and 3 grip. boarding in both Fecundity and leyline is crazy helpful in the landstill matchup. I think ultimately the wish build is more consistent, but it does lose these elements which are very helpful in matchups like landstill/dreadstill.

That being said, all my testing is in preparation for grand prix providence in May, so I will end up going with whatever I predict will be best for that meta.


Does anyone have any ideas of a creature we can run in the wishboard that can answer humility? I know there aren't many but if we can think of a relatively cheap one it might be worth it.

Only one I can think of is Ulamog? You require a "as you cast" clause to actually be able to deal with Humility with a creature...

[Darklingske]

Only one I can think of is Ulamog? You require a "as you cast" clause to actually be able to deal with Humility with a creature...

Yup, like I said a few posts before :)

[Darklingske]

How do you guys usually board against control? Leylines come in to prevent countering, but what to take out? I usually take out a symbiote, an archdruid and a pact.

[k2thej]

How do you guys usually board against control? Leylines come in to prevent countering, but what to take out? I usually take out a symbiote, an archdruid and a pact.

Board in leylines for glimpses and more dudes for pacts. You now have an uncounterable aggro deck that they cannot deal with.

[Darklingske]

Board in leylines for glimpses and more dudes for pacts. You now have an uncounterable aggro deck that they cannot deal with.

Hmmm, most CBbuilds in my region run firespout and are very well able to sweep my board before I can summon -excuse me, cast- 3 lords. Anyone else having this problem?

[Hawdes]

Hmmm, most CBbuilds in my region run firespout and are very well able to sweep my board before I can summon -excuse me, cast- 3 lords. Anyone else having this problem?

I'm having tons of trouble in a lot of match ups... Against still-type decks I usually get blown out by Deeds and such and then they'll land a Jace...
Against merfolks I'm pretty dead post board. Try fightning 4 E.P, 3 Perish and Submerge/Jitte...

I'm just laughing at how bad we get post board with a Wish-list.

[k2thej]

Hmmm, most CBbuilds in my region run firespout and are very well able to sweep my board before I can summon -excuse me, cast- 3 lords. Anyone else having this problem?

Ya sweepers are tough but you can play around them. You should hold as many guys in hand until you combo off, and then if you order the casting right you should be able to float enough mana to keep going through a firespout. If they spout to early and stop you from doing this then you can likely come back since you have enough dudes in hand. they key against sweepers is to hold guys in hand until you go off.