[Deck] Elves Combo

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Post board the important thing is to try to race out as many Lords as possible. You bring in 1 Elvish Champion and keep one to Wish for so that your total count is 13, with 9 ways to get evasion going. You also want to prepare for Jitte early by getting out Symbiotes. But the main emphasis should be on making sure that Plagues don't kill you.

That's based on my testing/tournament experience, which isn't that extensive really. There might be more strategies here that I'm missing. Just don't empty your hand without having out a Lord, preferably two.

[Koby]

RE Junk... (goes for any White or Black deck too)
Bring in Krosan Grip for Canonist/Plague. Be wary of running out a bunch of elves w/o a Lord effect (or two). Try to hold back as many creatures as possible to make the most out of your Glimpses. Prey they don't run Sinkhole or Hymn your land drops.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If they're a major metagame presence, one of the best cards against Junk is probably Wilt-Leaf Liege. I don't agree with the holding back a full hand suggestion, though. I think you want to race out a full board as soon as possible, as Canonist and Jitte are actually even harder to deal with than Plague. You just have to try and make sure that you're not overexposed to Plague. It seems like kind of a balancing act.

[bakofried]

Is Elvish Skysweeper a terrible out to Emmy/Iona? Normally I don't try to post budget ideas on the competitive boards, but I can't for the life of me afford a Karakas with stuff that's going on. Furthermore, Skysweeper does actually stop a sneaked Emmy (which Karakas does not) and has the same vulnerability to a reanimated Iona.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When it comes out, Phyrexian Metamorph will probably be better than Karakas anyway, since it answers Progenitus as well.

In Elves it might be worth running several of those in the board, to be able to bring in extra answers to big Legendary guys that at worst turn into expensive versions of any elves you already have out.

[bakofried]

Also deals with Jitte, as a side note.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Holy shit you're right.

I'm pretty sure that warrants a 3-of at least.

[bakofried]

Dodges Iona unless they want us to combo them out, too.

Question: What would be the best way to deal with Pyrokinesis out of Goblin boards? The same method one uses to prevent sweepers?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That or try to slowroll a Priest, combo off in a single turn. Not like you have to worry about discard.

[bakofried]

True enough. Preboard the match seems fairly easy though. Lackey will only get through if they're lucky, and Siege-gang and Gempalm are a tad slow to stop the deck from shitting bodies.

[Neil]

In my experience pact pretty much has never lost me a game except when I forget to pay for it (now I just put a die over my deck so i don't forget). I have tested it in tournaments such as SGC San Jose and a few 16 player tournaments. I really think the cons of GSZ are worse than Pacts upkeep cost.

[Koby]

I'm ok with losing to Iona (dredge, reanimator), but we can race an Emrakul. Metamorph seems more cute than useful - Krosan Grip already answers Jitte, Canonist, and Plague. Grip solves a lot more problems than Metamorph does (Progenitus? I mean really we have 2 turns to win as it is, how much time do you need?)

[bakofried]

Or have answers to all of them in a wishboard? It's really not that hard to pull off.

[catmint]

My experiences with Pact is that I die more often to it than 1/30 times. People really wait to do all kind of nasty tricks to kill you with it.

I still run 4pact/4wish with 4 priest / 4 archdruid.
Having 8 lords I dont think it is too often necessary to tutor for them to set up the combo, because you just draw them more naturally.
So the often discussed Turn 2 play with pact for archdruid is not my favourite thing to do and I think this specific situation has been stressed too much.

The biggest reason to run pact for me is that you are actually able to combo off without an active mana-lord or in other tight situations, where GSZ is simply not enough (+1 mana, -1 draw with symbiote).

I totally aggree that the list with 4GSZ is more resilient vs. countermagic/removal, but you loose your biggest weapon: speed ... I think the of interaction with our opponent makes it necessary to put them under a lot of pressure. T1: elf, T2: lord, T3: glimpse/regal force + ~5 elves + 5 cards sets up a turn 4 win. I can recall many situations where it would be devastating to give them an extra turn.... Decks like entchantress, affinity, high-tide, painted-stone and burn can just try to race you without bothering. Control gets perish or some silver bullet to stop you and you suddenly have to deal with Jitte or equipments which K2 mostly smiles at. ANT/TES .. well no comment.

I will still test both options, but to IBA and K2, I don't think you can black/white this question. Both cards have their strength and I don't think it is that easy to say 1 is clearly better...As mentioned: also meta dependent.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Against StP, Force and Spell Pierce? I mean Bant is a pretty favorable matchup on the whole, I think, but when they get a Progenitus down things can get ugly pretty quickly. I'm also not okay with just losing to Reanimator and Dredge.

Also racing an Emrakul seems like a terrible idea.

I definitely think it replaces Karakas, although the idea of bringing in multiples just might be an overreaction to losing to Iona over the weekend with Force backup for my Living Wish.

[bakofried]

Yeah, that can be rough. I don't think multiples are really necessary, though. If they counter one, just go for E. Witness with another. Also, this deck's combo is fairly slow, as far as combo decks go, so I value resilience and a stronger aggro plan over goldfish speed.

[Koby]

Yeah, that can be rough. I don't think multiples are really necessary, though. If they counter one, just go for E. Witness with another. Also, this deck's combo is fairly slow, as far as combo decks go, so I value resilience and a stronger aggro plan over goldfish speed.

How is this even possible with Iona on green? Like I said, there is not much we can do outside of anticipate Iona entering play next turn. Once she's out, we're toast. Against Show n Tell -> Emrakul - we just drop a lord and attempt to go off on our turn. Against Show n Tell -> Progenitus, this gives us 2.5 turns to combo off. Against NO -> Pro, this gives us 1 to 1.5 turns to go off. All these situations happen on turn 3 or 4. This isn't enough time to win with Glimpse/tutors?

[bakofried]

We're talking about Reanimator here - it's not difficult to pick out. Look for Personal Tutor, Entomb, that sort of thing. And then G2, you can just bring in Phyrexian Metamorph (Or Skysweeper, I don't care) via Wish prior to getting Iona'd out of the game.

[Koby]

We're talking about Reanimator here - it's not difficult to pick out. Look for Personal Tutor, Entomb, that sort of thing. And then G2, you can just bring in Phyrexian Metamorph (Or Skysweeper, I don't care) via Wish prior to getting Iona'd out of the game.

Ok granted. I would still prefer Karakas however, as it's uncounterable. I also doubt this deck could even be a serious choice in tournaments, as Mental Misstep completely obliterate's this deck's chances.

[bakofried]

Oh, bullshit. It's a 1-for-1 counter, it's not going to destroy the deck. Vary your gameplan. Hell, play GSZ.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think Misstep itself will destroy the deck, but if the biggest deck post-shakeup is Zoo with Missteps, Lavamancers and plenty of removal, and more relevant hate in the side, things become problematic.

[Atikin]

Oh, bullshit. It's a 1-for-1 counter, it's not going to destroy the deck. Vary your gameplan. Hell, play GSZ.

Did you honestly just dismiss a zero mana counter that counters 30ish cards in our deck on the basis of it being a 1 for 1? If so, FoW wants to say hello and smack you in the face.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As long as it doesn't counter Priests, Archdruids, Zeniths or Wishes (or for that matter, Pact) I don't think it's going to be gamebreaking by itself. You should be able to win without resolving Glimpse. It's in conjunction with plenty of removal that I get worried.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Could you please write without completely wrecking this thread up.

First. DO NOT DOUBLE POST when you quote. Click on "Reply with quote" and copy (Ctrl+C) the Quotation, do this as many times as you want, but paste them all in 1 single post. I am not going to read the last 8 pages of the thread just because of this annoying, annoying writing.

Then. Get yourself a shorter signature, if you are going to post SO MUCH, please. It is annoying to see that huge signature 15 times per page.

If you don't do this I'll have to report you. I will erase this message tomorrow.

Thank you!

1) I haven't doubled posted, and no.

2) No.

3) I don't care because I'm not breaking any forum rules. Chill the fuck out.

4) Go to forum settings. Thread display options; uncheck, "Show signatures."

5) Chill the fuck out.

[Neil]

1) I haven't doubled posted, and no.

2) No.

3) I don't care because I'm not breaking any forum rules. Chill the fuck out.

4) Go to forum settings. Thread display options; uncheck, "Show signatures."

5) Chill the fuck out.

Page 74 you double posted two different quotes...

Edit: I'm not exactly agreeing with Nihil but just wanted to point it out that he was right on that particular thing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Page 74 you double posted two different quotes...

Oh, you're right.

Still seems a retarded thing to get upset about.

If scrolling through pages bothers people that much, they should also change their settings to display 40 posts a page.

[Koby]

Oh, bullshit. It's a 1-for-1 counter, it's not going to destroy the deck. Vary your gameplan. Hell, play GSZ.

Do'h. I was being terse and ended up confusing.

I don't see Reanimator being viable once Mental Misstep enters the format. Relying on resolving Entomb/Careful Study/Personal Tutor then Reanimate seems very unlikely in the coming weeks with as much hype as MM is receiving. That leads me to believe that facing a Reanimator deck with Iona to be slim. Hence, I do not fret about how to deal with Iona.

Case in point: Reanimator is a wash, and I won't dedicate SB space against it.

[bakofried]

No, I was saying that Misstep won't destroy this deck. It a counterspell. Play through it. Bait it if you have to. It's a really good card, it's going to impact the format, and I'm shoving 4 of them into my 'Folk deck, but it's just a counterspell. Admittedly, if it's played in traditional Zoo, with Lavamancer and company, then I'll just chalk that one up as unwinnable. But does this card invalidate the deck? Hell no.

EDIT:
HA! I confused myself. Okay, so you're arguing that Misstep invalidates Reanimator? That, I can see, as that deck is barely clinging to life now. Sorry for the upset. But I still think my above point stands, for any naysayers.

@Atikin
Can you play through Force? If so, you can play through Misstep.

[Atikin]

No, I was saying that Misstep won't destroy this deck. It a counterspell. Play through it. Bait it if you have to. It's a really good card, it's going to impact the format, and I'm shoving 4 of them into my 'Folk deck, but it's just a counterspell. Admittedly, if it's played in traditional Zoo, with Lavamancer and company, then I'll just chalk that one up as unwinnable. But does this card invalidate the deck? Hell no.

EDIT:
HA! I confused myself. Okay, so you're arguing that Misstep invalidates Reanimator? That, I can see, as that deck is barely clinging to life now. Sorry for the upset. But I still think my above point stands, for any naysayers.

@Atikin
Can you play through Force? If so, you can play through Misstep.

Can you play through 2 force? If not, then you cant play through a force and a misstep. But anyways, this is null since we're apparently all arguing about different things haha.

[Koby]

Baiting only works if there's critical mass of threats. It is highly dependent on the situation too, but for the most part I see GSZ being better in situations where an attrition game is required versus glass cannon approach. I still see the benefit for Pact for tight situations, and having run a few MTGO matches (Dailies and 2mans) with only 1 Pact, I decided that 2 is a better fit in place of the 3rd Archdruid.

Right now, I'm using a mixture of tutors with great effect:

3 GSZ
3 Living Wish
2 Summoner's Pact

I don't see the need for the 4th Wish, as it's usually only critical to have once you combo off. A note about GSZ that I do like is especially cycling through them to fetch out Elvish Visionary. This not only replaces GSZ with another card (ala Pact), but also buys you time. I tried out this tactic against RUG non-CB and seeing that I was getting no resistance on GSZ went for the combo once Lavamancer became gimped. It is not uncommon to tutor out Symbiote with GSZ to continue the Glimpse chains too, as Nihil mentioned.

[bakofried]

I use the Wishes at all stages in the game. Whether I need to gimp a combo (nabbing Faerie Macabre vs. GY decks, or Revoker for Storm) need to set up by grabbing a half of the mana engine, or I need to seal the deal. I acknowledge that IBA's list is slower, but it seems so much more resilient.

[Koby]

Note critical versus useful. I've used Wish many times to find an early Cradle (usually is the case too). Oftentimes this is the bait. It's obvious that a double Glimpse hand is easily setup for baiting too, especially when you play mind games and talk about how your deck is capable of hyper explosive turns :P

[bakofried]

Well...it is. But they don't need to know if I have a slow roll hand or not. I feel like Glimpses are Hymns sometimes - especially if I don't need them and I'm taking the priest+untap effects route.

[gypsy]

k2 or anyone else have a good list with pact and/or GSZ, im rly not a big fan of living wish or any wishes rly as i prefer to have a real sideboard

[k2thej]

k2 or anyone else have a good list with pact and/or GSZ, im rly not a big fan of living wish or any wishes rly as i prefer to have a real sideboard

My non-wish is posted a few pages back, but you basically just replace the wishes with the 4th fyndhorn, another land, and emrakul

[Koplinchen]

K2thej, what do you think about Misstep? I think it wrecks this deck. I know, we talked about lot how resiliet it is, but this gives your opponent big tempo boost and blue has finaly one card answer to glimpse.

[catmint]

So far I only heard people saying Mental Misstep is no option for elves. Reasons given were:

- No synergies with the deck
What other synergy does protection/disruption need except for being protection/disruption.
Why do you think it has more synergies in other aggro decks (as discussed in MM thread it is a good card for Zoo or other tribals)

- Does not solve Elve Problems
…I just cannot understand that at all. SD.top in CB/top is a huge problem. We side in Grip for that.
I don’t know how many times a bolt/swords/thoughtseize set me back and of course we know storm is about a turn faster and interacts more.

IBA, especially your build which is stronger aggro/less combo could use it…
Her are some quotes of IBA from the MM thread. I would appreciate if you could specify why the things you said do not apply to elves.


I agree that this card will probably have a large impact, although I think it's highly unlikely that that will help blue. On the contrary, blue loses a lot of its attractiveness if fast aggro decks like Zoo can cripple combo decks fairly reliably, even if only out of the board.”
Why is it great for Zoo but not for the elve aggro plan?


Mental Misstep is an absolutely terrible card if all you can do with it is counter Vials so you can counter other stuff later. Where it shines is in an aggro deck that wants to nerf combo and the most common removal spell in the format at the same time, with most other considerations being secondary.”
You don’t want to nerf combo and most common removal spell in the format playing elves?


A card that is useful in most matchups and gives a deck game against its worst matchups has more value than a card that is useful in most matchups but doesn't help the worst matchups. As such, Mental Misstep reaches its peak value in any deck that has problems with combo, i.e., isn't blue and probably isn't heavily into black and thus lacks spell/hand disruption. It's in the nature of the card to be at a premium during the early game, so it also favors play in decks that only want to see the early game. As it's not good against much of the most played disruption in the format, Force, Daze, Wasteland, and Hymn, it's not great protection.
- I think MM gives us game vs. worst matchups burn/zoo/counter top/landstill/combo, but also useful in others.
- Problems with combo...
- lack of black -> disruption
- premium in early game: (elves like T1-T4)

Thanks in advance.

[Darklingske]

I think that MM will be heavily played for starters. But time will tell if it stays present in certain decks. For elves I do think that MM could have his place in the SB. It will certainly improve our MU against fast combo.
Considering the quote that it wrecks the deck. I do not believe it will. It is a great force that we will have to take in account, but then again, so is FoW. And it's not as if you're entire plan falls to crumble if one of our elves is countered or even worse, if they counter glimpse. I do think that we will need to rely less on glimpse.

[k2thej]

K2thej, what do you think about Misstep? I think it wrecks this deck. I know, we talked about lot how resiliet it is, but this gives your opponent big tempo boost and blue has finaly one card answer to glimpse.

I think it is essentially another fow against us, since it hits most of the deck.

It's not good, but I think the shusher's in the board take care of it though. We've played around FOW, CB, etc. We'll be fine.

Edit: Yes, shushers. I now am a huge proponent of shushers over Leyline. Thank you Ruckus for switching me over like a month or so ago. They really are better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

While Misstep hits a lot of cards in the deck, it doesn't hit most of the best cards (Priests, Archdruids, Wish, GSZ) except for Glimpse itself. It definitely hurts the deck, but it depends what shell it's in. Zoo might've just become unwinnable is the biggest problem I can foresee.

@Catmint:

While countering Lavamancer or Top would be nice, most of the other problems the deck cares about don't get solved with Misstep (Jitte, Firespout, Humility, Damnation, Deed, EE, etc..), and the deck has an unusually high premium on synergy.

[k2thej]

While Misstep hits a lot of cards in the deck, it doesn't hit most of the best cards (Priests, Archdruids, Wish, GSZ) except for Glimpse itself. It definitely hurts the deck, but it depends what shell it's in. Zoo might've just become unwinnable is the biggest problem I can foresee.

@Catmint:

While countering Lavamancer or Top would be nice, most of the other problems the deck cares about don't get solved with Misstep (Jitte, Firespout, Humility, Damnation, Deed, EE, etc..), and the deck has an unusually high premium on synergy.

I would much rather play against a counter that said "counter target spell with converted mana cost not equal to one" though

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

... really? I think it's far easier to win without Glimpse than without an !=1 spells.

[k2thej]

... really? I think it's far easier to win without Glimpse than without an !=1 spells.

If you have glimpse and 1/1s, thats preferable, I guess it doesn't really matter tho haha.

[Astrix]

Ehm you realise that Combo elves is...ehm Combo.Mental misstep will be used mostly by control,aggro control,aggro and
especially the ones that can pay the blue for it...
If we see a combo elves deck top 8 with 4 copies of MM in the future then Wizards should start thinking to ban it
because the world has fallen apart

[k2thej]

Ehm you realise that Combo elves is...ehm Combo.Mental misstep will be used mostly by control,aggro control,aggro and
especially the ones that can pay the blue for it...
If we see a combo elves deck top 8 with 4 copies of MM in the future then Wizards should start thinking to ban it
because the world has fallen apart

So you are arguing that it will, in fact, wreck elves. Is that right?

Edit: Or are you saying that it has no place being in elves? If you are saying this then I agree with you.

[catmint]

@Catmint:

While countering Lavamancer or Top would be nice, most of the other problems the deck cares about don't get solved with Misstep (Jitte, Firespout, Humility, Damnation, Deed, EE, etc..), and the deck has an unusually high premium on synergy.

The argument that 1 card does not solve certain problems does not mean that it can help solving other problems. It is not like you leave MM out for some cards that really help you to deal with the other threats! What you leave out is some strength of the combo.
And by the way I think in fact MM helps vs. the things you listed because control players usually need to somehow disrupt and/or filter to buy time and find their 3cc removal/EE/silver bullet and we can interact with that. Aso you said in the MM thread E. Tutor is used a lot for cards that wrack us and it can be countered with MM.

[Astrix]

So you are arguing that it will, in fact, wreck elves. Is that right?

Edit: Or are you saying that it has no place being in elves? If you are saying this then I agree with you.
You are right .i say it has no place being in elves.
My bet is that mental misstep will be used mainly by merfolk and other blue based decks(bant ,counter top etc)

[overseer1234]

Okay so I only recently started playing elves, and read an article on SCG about a list with genesis wave and stuff in it.

Now I dunno if this has already been discussed, but is the decklist any good as a starting point?

If not, what would I need to change (except for splashing as I don't have anny duals...).

EDIT: here's the link to the article I mentioned:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21524_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Elves.html

[Koby]

Okay so I only recently started playing elves, and read an article on SCG about a list with genesis wave and stuff in it.

Now I dunno if this has already been discussed, but is the decklist any good as a starting point?

If not, what would I need to change (except for splashing as I don't have anny duals...).

EDIT: here's the link to the article I mentioned:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21524_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Elves.html

Core of the Combo Elves deck:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
6-7 Mana Elves
3-4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

The rest comes down to your own personal style. Here's some examples:

k2thej plays a hyper efficient list with 4 Summoner's Pact and additional 1 drops.
IBA plays 4 Priest of Titania, 4 Elvish Archdruids, and 4 GSZ to become less reliant on Glimpse.

Some lists run Living Wish to give more options, others run Genesis Wave (such as voltron00x).

As for the mana base, anything between 14-17 lands is typical. I like a black splash to use better disruption against other combo decks, others have used white for Mirror Entity and some useful white spells. Blue is often used for Vengevine and Intuition. Red hasn't been used since Survival became banned.

Hope this helps.

[k2thej]

Okay so I only recently started playing elves, and read an article on SCG about a list with genesis wave and stuff in it.

Now I dunno if this has already been discussed, but is the decklist any good as a starting point?

If not, what would I need to change (except for splashing as I don't have anny duals...).

EDIT: here's the link to the article I mentioned:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21524_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Elves.html

I think it's pretty agreed upon at this point that genesis wave isn't a good idea. If you have enough mana to make it worth it, you should cast regal force. Since most decks run 6-7 tutors now, you have 7-8 chances at him. I think this is plenty.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I also don't think Living Wish is incredibly fought over, just the number and what other cards it supplements. Not having to run your Cradles and Emrakul main, but having access to them, is pretty strong.

[k2thej]

I also don't think Living Wish is incredibly fought over, just the number and what other cards it supplements. Not having to run your Cradles and Emrakul main, but having access to them, is pretty strong.

Agreed. Unless we come up with some other really beneficial sb package that requires the slots, I think it's pretty much a given.

[Atikin]

Core of the Combo Elves deck:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
6-7 Mana Elves
3-4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

The rest comes down to your own personal style. Here's some examples:

k2thej plays a hyper efficient list with 4 Summoner's Pact and additional 1 drops.
IBA plays 4 Priest of Titania, 4 Elvish Archdruids, and 4 GSZ to become less reliant on Glimpse.

Some lists run Living Wish to give more options, others run Genesis Wave (such as voltron00x).

As for the mana base, anything between 14-17 lands is typical. I like a black splash to use better disruption against other combo decks, others have used white for Mirror Entity and some useful white spells. Blue is often used for Vengevine and Intuition. Red hasn't been used since Survival became banned.

Hope this helps.

Im only running 3 elvish visionaries o.O

[k2thej]

Im only running 3 elvish visionaries o.O

Poor choice

[Atikin]

Poor choice

Why's that?

[k2thej]

Why's that?

It's one of the best cards in the deck. It's hands down the best tutor target while comboing, providing you have at least one mana to spare, which you usually do, and the card advantage is just huge. The synergy with symbiote is also amazing.

[Atikin]

The synergy with wirewood symbiote is the main point, in which case 1 is plenty. A hand with 2 of them is just awfully slow and weak.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Visionary's cuttable in theory, although I don't know what for. If it were the best card in the deck you'd really think we'd find room for some Acolytes. Outside of Symbiote interactions it's not really a very strong link in the chain.

[Atikin]

My current list:

14 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Living Wish

SB:

1 Priest of Titania
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Elvish Champion
3 Krosan Grip
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke

[uncletiggy]

Does Nantuko Cultivator have a place in a wishboard?

[Atikin]

Does Nantuko Cultivator have a place in a wishboard?

For what situation?

[Astrix]

i was working my sideboard tech for my (wish) list post NPH and i came up with these 2:

Control Meta:

4 leyline of lifeforce
2 krosan grip
2 beast within
1 faerie macabre
1 bojuka bog
1 gaea's cradle
1 emrakul
1 regal force
1 joraga warcaller
1 phyrexian metamorph

Combo meta:

4 thorn of amethyst
2 krosan grip
2 beast within
1 faerie macabre
1 bojuka bog
1 gaea's cradle
1 emrakul
1 regal force
1 joraga warcaller
1 phyrexian metamorph

I change the leylines with thorns in a heavy combo meta.
only thing that worries me is that i cut viridian zealot from the side
and i play 1 in the main (to fetch with the tutors)
since i added 2 beast withins.
Maybe i swap joraga warcaller and bring him mainboard and put viridian zealot to sideboard?
I added phyrexian metamorph as a progenitus-emrakul-jitte answer and an answer to
random things that can happen.Ii think it deserves a slot.
Tell me what u think.

PS My list is similar to IBA's and David Yo's that toped4 scg Atlanta
i play 4 priests and 4 elvish arcdruid that means i have an alternative to glimpse and a strong aggro plan
and thanks to archdruid i can survive eng plagues.

[k2thej]

Visionary is not cuttable. Do you know how much it increases your chances of not fizzling if you cast/tutor for as many of them as possible while comboing? The difference in the % of finished combos is not even close.

[catmint]

Visionary is not cuttable. Do you know how much it increases your chances of not fizzling if you cast/tutor for as many of them as possible while comboing? The difference in the % of finished combos is not even close.

It is better to tutor for 1 visionary and from then on for wirewoods, because they give us even 3 cards instead of 2 and might be bigger manafixers if we have an active lord.

[Astrix]

Indeed catmint after 1st visionary its better to tutor for wirewoods but that does not make the visionaries cuttable.
We need at least 3 visonaries.but tbh 4 is the way to go because we dont have better options either way

[k2thej]

It is better to tutor for 1 visionary and from then on for wirewoods, because they give us even 3 cards instead of 2 and might be bigger manafixers if we have an active lord.

Visionaries let you activate heritage right when they come into play, if you tutor for a wirewood you need to play the wirewood, then bounce the visionary and then replay it, meaning you need to have 3 mana available instead of 2. When you are just starting to combo, especially if you have one nettle in play, it is very frequent that you will be able to continue comboing if you get a visionary since you have one spare mana, but do not have two spare mana to make the symbiote play.

[Atikin]

Visionary is not cuttable. Do you know how much it increases your chances of not fizzling if you cast/tutor for as many of them as possible while comboing? The difference in the % of finished combos is not even close.

This makes absolutely no sense. You're telling me that you absolutely need to go through 4 wirewoods and 4 elvish visionaries to not fizzle? WTF? Since you seem to have these magical numbers somewhere, can you also tell me the percentage of times you fizzle if you only go through 3 of them?


Indeed catmint after 1st visionary its better to tutor for wirewoods but that does not make the visionaries cuttable.
We need at least 3 visonaries.but tbh 4 is the way to go because we dont have better options either way

Provide some arguements because there's Definetly always options.


Visionaries let you activate heritage right when they come into play, if you tutor for a wirewood you need to play the wirewood, then bounce the visionary and then replay it, meaning you need to have 3 mana available instead of 2. When you are just starting to combo, especially if you have one nettle in play, it is very frequent that you will be able to continue comboing if you get a visionary since you have one spare mana, but do not have two spare mana to make the symbiote play.

Again nothing wrong with them combo turn. But iafter 3 casted there is absolutely no way you're fizzling., I don't see the use of the 4th.

[k2thej]

This makes absolutely no sense. You're telling me that you absolutely need to go through 4 wirewoods and 4 elvish visionaries to not fizzle? WTF? Since you seem to have these magical numbers somewhere, can you also tell me the percentage of times you fizzle if you only go through 3 of them?



Provide some arguements because there's Definetly always options.



Again nothing wrong with them combo turn. But iafter 3 casted there is absolutely no way you're fizzling., I don't see the use of the 4th.

My point is not that you have to cast all 4. My point is that when you start the combo it makes an unbelievable difference whether or not you can cast a visionary to get over the first hump. Because of this, running 4 is optimal so that you can maximize the chances that you will have one in your hand in order to blast through the combo start. Casting as many as you can is usually a good idea, but I am not saying we should run 4 because you need to cast all 4, I am saying that we should run 4 to have the biggest chance of being able to cast 1 early on.

[Koby]

gain nothing wrong with them combo turn. But iafter 3 casted there is absolutely no way you're fizzling., I don't see the use of the 4th.

It's actually the opposite. Visionaries help you set up the combo turn. The best turn 2 play with a slow hand is to cycle Visionaries. In most situations infact it's better to just cycle Visionary than try to jam out a bunch of Elves; and setup a large combo turn. Playing out other key components earlier (heritage, Nettle) will leave them open to removal. This is of course different when Symbiote is also available. It's actually even better when you have Symbiote and Visionary prior to comboing off.

The few times I ever ran less than 4 Visionary was in k2thej's stream-lined list which ran enough 1drops to continue powering through a single Glimpse. Even then it felt like I wasn't drawing enough cards.

The other time was in Survival Elves, but that had a much more consistent engine.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Visionary is not cuttable. Do you know how much it increases your chances of not fizzling if you cast/tutor for as many of them as possible while comboing? The difference in the % of finished combos is not even close.

Serious question, then; if Visionary is one of your best cards going off, and it's worth running Pact over GSZ for its utility when comboing, why don't you run any copies of Multani's Acolyte to increase the number of Visionaries you draw?

[k2thej]

Serious question, then; if Visionary is one of your best cards going off, and it's worth running Pact over GSZ for its utility when comboing, why don't you run any copies of Multani's Acolyte to increase the number of Visionaries you draw?

Because of the reasons Ruckus just posted. Visionaries other huge advantage is being able to play them on turn two, get an extra card, and up the elf count to combo the following turn. I've tested Acolyte before and while I was really excited about how it looked in theory, it just didn't work out in testing because of the echo.

On top of that, 4 Visionaries is a good number because you don't really ever get them in situations when you don't want them, such as when you are treading water mana-wise during a combo and need to keep seeing one drops to make it work. 4 has proved to be the perfect number, at least for my play style.

If they ever printed a cantrip one drop elf....oh man.

[Atikin]

This makes absolutely no sense. You're telling me that you absolutely need to go through 4 wirewoods and 4 elvish visionaries to not fizzle? WTF? Since you seem to have these magical numbers somewhere, can you also tell me the percentage of times you fizzle if you only go through 3 of them?



Provide some arguements because there's Definetly always options.



Again nothing wrong with them combo turn. But iafter 3 casted there is absolutely no way you're fizzling., I don't see the use of the 4th.

You orginally posted tutoring for them during combo turn, and thats what i was arguing against. Obviously casting them on turn 2 or as one of the first cards after glimpse is great, its just a hand with more than one is extremely slow and weak, and often to get over that "hump" youd rather have a 1 mana elf.

[k2thej]

You orginally posted tutoring for them during combo turn, and thats what i was arguing against. Obviously casting them on turn 2 or as one of the first cards after glimpse is great, its just a hand with more than one is extremely slow and weak, and often to get over that "hump" youd rather have a 1 mana elf.

Ya when comboing if you don't have one, pacting for one is a really good move. That would be what I meant.

[Atikin]

Ya when comboing if you don't have one, pacting for one is a really good move. That would be what I meant.

Well pacting for them makes the amount you have in your deck irrelevant haha :) But yeah I pact for one after a glimpse often as well, especially if symbiotes out.

[k2thej]

Well pacting for them makes the amount you have in your deck irrelevant haha :) But yeah I pact for one after a glimpse often as well, especially if symbiotes out.

If you run 3 then you have 4 chances with pact, if you run 4 you have 8. It's not irrelevant.

[Atikin]

If you run 3 then you have 4 chances with pact, if you run 4 you have 8. It's not irrelevant.

How did you go from run 3 = 4 to run 4 = 8 ??

Did you mean with pact if you run 3 visionaries you have 7 chances but if you run 4 visionaries you have 8 chances?

[k2thej]

How did you go from run 3 = 4 to run 4 = 8 ??

Did you mean with pact if you run 3 visionaries you have 7 chances but if you run 4 visionaries you have 8 chances?

ya

[catmint]

I dont agree K2. Visionary used to be one of my favourite T2 play when I used your list, but now that I have 4 titania/4archduid I am able to setup a turn 3 win even without glimpse in hand, because it is so easy to cast a regal force with an active manalord. Test how often you win the game in turn 3 when you play turn 2 visionary as opposed to archdruid...

Your argument that visionary is so important to keep the combo going is just not right. I can provide goldfish results of starting and finishing more than 95% of the time with my list that runs only 2 visionaries.

Anyway I think there are more imporant things we can argue about.

[catmint]

I went to a local tournament and came out 7th (3 – 2) with 25 people in.
There were some good tier decks in the field except for storm but also some homemade/bad ones, so my aim was Top 4.
I was lacking 1 priest of titania and played only 12 forest and 1 cradle, which is probably not enough in real life. I had to take mulligan so many times because of 0 lands.

Here the list:

Creatures
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Priest of Titania
2 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Viridian Zealot

Instants
4 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
12 Forest

Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Heritage Druid
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
1 Terastodon
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap


1. vs. MUD: 2:0
G1: I win the dice and go off undistrupted in Turn 3
G2: he has 2nd turn metalworker, but I manage to play a lot of elves + archdruid + zealot to destroy his metalworker and went off turn 3.

2. Vs. UWB Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas : 2:1
(Affinity like list with slower clock but path to exile, ethersworn canonist MD and thoughtseize SB )
G1: He has 1st turn canonist. A very long game where he as Tezzeret out there to keep bombs coming. I manage to get 2 archdruid and a zealot for canonist .He has another canonist and kills me aggro.
G2: He keeps a bad hand but distrupts my T2 glimpse with a path to exile. I combo off again next turn.

G3: He starts with Mox diamond, land canonist. He follows up with toughtseize taking one of 2 pacts instead of wirewood symbiote and plays pithing needle for viridian zealot. I pact for the sided in viridian shaman and combo off 1 turn later casting 2 regal force with an active archdruid.

3. vs. dredge 1:2
G1: He won the dice and had a supreme hand. Played 2 cabal on turn 2 and returned a dude to destroy a land for a turn 3 win.
G2: I combo turn 2 for superior board and a turn 3 win.
G3: had to take mulligan and kept a hand with 4 forest and 2 priest of titania.
His hand is also slow, but he uses darkblast and cabal to disrupt me and got there faster than I did.

4. vs. red staxx. 1:2
G1: Mulligan to 4. Early trinisphere + lodestone golem with umezawa's jitte .
G2: He has another early trinisphere followed by lodestone golem to slow me down a lot.
Luckily I only draw lands and have 2 grip in my hands and a tutor for viridian shaman.
Finally it was so close. I grip trinisphere and golem but he also had 2 phyrexian revoker for my titania to hold me back, 1 etched champion to get me to 1 life + a ratchet bomb on 1 and a ratchet bomb on 2 as combo insurance. I have glimpse, quirion, visionary, nettle, pact in hand. I glimse and pact for heritage hoping that he would sac the ratchet bomb in response to me taking 3 mana. He did and I manage to find another one for the win.
G3: All the fight for nothing he starts with ancient tomb, spirit guide for trinishpere followed by 2 stone rain, lodestone golem and jitte.

5. vs a strange black deck someone tried out: 2:0
Played funny tech with buried alive and Demigod of Revenge and also hatred altough i did not see anything.
Basically watched me in my t2-3 wins. Only disruption 1 small pox in turn 2 where I already had 4 elves out.
His deck is probably not complete crap, because he beat my buddy 2:1 who is an experienced player and had a "fully equiped" UBR counter-top/painted stone list.

My findings:
Combo off with pact was very strong and saved my ass in ~2 games where GSZ would not.
Without pact I think the dredge matchup would be have been even worse.
I never died to pact, but it was close 2 times.
-> still a fan of pact over GSZ!

I will move back to 13 forest and see if I have less mulligans next time.

[Astrix]

Imo bring 13-14 forests and put the gaea's cradle on the sideboard.
Do you really need it mainboarD?u have no way getting it.
But with living wish u have it when u need it to fuel pact(regal) living wish or GSZ.

[gypsy]

I think running pact and GSZ is correct after playing them, dying from pact is not a real concern. I ran 4 Priest/4 Archdruid for a while but found drawing more than 1 archdruid was rly bad and am probably gonna start cutting them until i fiind a number im confortable with but i for sure want at least 1 in the deck and am gonna stick with 4 priest because that card is ridiculous

[TkDodo]

5. vs a strange black deck someone tried out: 2:0
Played funny tech with buried alive and Demigod of Revenge and also hatred altough i did not see anything.
Basically watched me in my t2-3 wins. Only disruption 1 small pox in turn 2 where I already had 4 elves out.
His deck is probably not complete crap, because he beat my buddy 2:1 who is an experienced player and had a "fully equiped" UBR counter-top/painted stone list.



Although probably nobody cares, I (the buddy) did not loose to this guy, in fact I went 2-0 ;)
His deck was actually something like pox without pox, he had some good stuff like hymn/smallpox/ghastly demise and buried alive - bloodghast, at least that's what I saw.

Btw, congrats on your finish and the nice trades ;)

[k2thej]

Imo bring 13-14 forests and put the gaea's cradle on the sideboard.
Do you really need it mainboarD?u have no way getting it.
But with living wish u have it when u need it to fuel pact(regal) living wish or GSZ.

absoflutely

[catmint]

Imo bring 13-14 forests and put the gaea's cradle on the sideboard.
Do you really need it mainboarD?u have no way getting it.
But with living wish u have it when u need it to fuel pact(regal) living wish or GSZ.

Thanks, that sounds right!
I had cradle in maindeck, because I liked it as a random draw to help and I did not want to use a SB spot for it. I guess that I havent really considered how useful it can be to access cradle with wish. You have to be more careful with your land drops while comboing off I think.
Can you describe some typical situations where you wish for cradle.

[Koby]

Turn 2 Wish for Cradle
Turn 3 Glimpse, Go off.

Turn 3 Go off (w/o making your land drop), use Living Wish to grab Cradle and recover tons of mana to continue combo off.

Turn 2 Living Wish (off Manaelf+Forest) for Cradle, play Cradle and cast another 1 drop to setup for turn 3 combo.

I very rarely like to expose Cradle to Wasteland, so I'm more inclined to wait until I can use it profitably, rather than use it as a land drop.

[Atikin]

Hey guys after several hours of playtesting this afternoon my deck is looking like this:

14 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Living Wish


SB:

1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Champion
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
4 x


Some Thoughts:

I tried zenith, I really did, trying to keep all bias out of it. It was always inferior to pact except for the turn 2 priest of titania. The fact that it doesnt interact with glimpse, doesnt interact with joraga warcaller (actually came up a lot), doesnt untap nettles until AFTER you dump the mana, and costs an extra mana overall (also a big issue when initialy starting the combo) far outweighs pacts 4 mana upkeep. The only time the 4 mana upkeep is an issue (assuming you dont pact turns 1 or 2 ever) is when you get your board swept, in which case youve lost regardless.

The elvish archdruids were extremely dead in multiples, it wasnt always possible to cast them on turn 2 and thus they were completely dead on what is probably our most critical turn, and in general far inferior to priests except when going aggro, thus I left in one of them as a tutor target.

Running 4 priests of titania and 1 archdruid makes untap effects far stronger, thus I upped the count of quirion rangers to 4 and would love to find a way to fit in a 4th symbiote.

Priests were nuts when drawn in opening hand, and let turn 3 combos occur with no issue.

Living wish should almost always be cast for cradle so that you dont 2 for 1 yourself if they decide to save their counter. This also leads to the point that you have to be beyond careful when dropping land drops willy nilly. If you can do something by tapping elves instead of using a land, its probably smarter to do so, especially once misstep gets printed and predictably daze will be used less (so you wont have to keep mana open). You never know when youll stumble upon living wish, may it be next turn or during your current glimpse turn, so it seems that the right play will generally be to cast land drops at the end of your turns. Another great point to living wish is the second regal force in the sideboard, as there are times when you draw zero glimpses from regal but happen to draw a living wish.

Also, as we force more and more two and three mana cards in this deck, or people running 8! tutors (GSZ and pact), the further we go to completely hampering any chances of being able to go over the starting hurdle when casting glimpse. If you are running 8 tutors and 4 elvish archdruids and 4 priests of titania, your win con basically stops becoming a win con, and more a jam your hand and hope your oponnent doesnt do anything after you inevitably fizzle and have to pass the turn.


ANYWAYS I hope some of that made sense, as I was mostly rambling and spewing thoughts that came into my head as I was writing. As I was playing I had a lot more on my mind to write about, so Im sure that more ideas will come so Ill edit them in when they do.

EDIT: To the people that are taking out the core of the deck and throwing it in the sideboard, dont. When you cast living wish for a one mana creature, youre basically telling your oponnent the exact weaknesses of your current hand, and the exact creature(s) they should kill/counter/look out for etc. Not to mention casting living wish simply to get a one mana creature basically slows you down by an entire turn at the least.

[Astrix]

I had the same thoughts when i was goldfishing why everyone plays elvish archdruid.
It made no sense to me.an elf with 3 mana? wtf...

But then i realise.To be honest elvish archdruid is the best card in the deck.
Its the one and only card that fullfills both the combo and aggro roles of this unique deck (aggro-combo archetype)
In real games with real people it's the perfect card.

You realise our elves are 1/1 ? Do you? 1/1s! They have no chance in real battle.U realise with engineered plague which is the
most common sideboard card vs tribal decks we basically scoop without him?
Instead with archdruid we have another way of making tons of mana and fueling -emrakul regal etc.
and the only way of aggro combat.

And when we , as you say, fizzle during combo, look at the board again and see.We have 12 elves and 2 arcdruids.thats 12x3/3
we have not really fizzled.its the 3rd turn of our opponent and even with plague he is dead...

If i cant persuade you just see David Yo's scg atlanta tournament who toped 4 in a real high level tourney
and lost only to a hatfield borther at the semi finals playing high tide due to a summoner's pact trigger he forgot.
David played a superfast list with 4 elvish archdruids in a deck with 11 forests Yes he played 4 arcdruids in a deck with 11 forests...

PS and about the 3 casting cost dont forget we have elvish spirit guides to play him turn 2 and be resilient to engineered plague and still combo off turn 3

[Neil]

Why not cut the Zealot and add a 4th wirewood? You have Artifact hate in your sideboard, that can be wished for so that should be enough. Or does your meta need the extra hate?. Also I find 13 forests to be enough and instead having 4th Llanowar to be nice. I run a third Birchlore instead of the archdruid. I completely agree with you on what you said about Archdruid that's why I run zero of them MD. I do keep 1 in my SB though. How often do you use the Archdruid as a lord? I am considering moving one MD since everyone else seems to think it's really good. Otherwise your decklist is the same as mine.

[bakofried]

I really do think we need to up the consideration of playing against live opponents vs. goldfishing. I don't care if a deck has the fastest goldfish in the game if it's a glass cannon, I want something that can fight off removal and disruption, and have a solid plan B even then.

[danyul]

@ Archdruid.

I just got home from a local tourney. I went undefeated with a budget version of IBA's list (no G.Cradle). The Archdruid's won me a match against an opponent who kept shutting down my Living Wishes, forcing me to go aggro and race his Goyfs. In another match, E.Plagues out of the SB couldn't stop my green men. Anecdotal evidence, I know. But I <3's my Archdruids.

[Atikin]

First off, all of my opinions were formed from testing with a buddy, not goldfishing.

@ Astrix
I have seen David Vo's list, infact Ive went through and seen every elves top 8/16 list from the past 3 months. Theres things like vengevine and brainstorm that get top 8s as well, one single top 8 is not enough of a convincing arguement for me. Also if you saw my list youd see that I ran 0 ESGs, as I fully disagree on a one card tradeoff for one mana, but thats another topic. Not to mention he doesnt running living wish at all, thus the amount of virtual copies of lords being fairly identical.

@ Neil
The zealots been great as it basically increases artifact hate from 3 cards in the deck to 7 in my case since you can now pact for the hate. 13v14 forests is obviously debatable and would probs depend more than anything on the list, and Ive never tested less land, but I will say that going turn 1 manowar then turn 2 no land drop is frustrating.

@bakofried
As i said these opinions werent from goldfishing, nor is my list FOR goldfishing (aka 0 ESGs). A glass cannon WOULD be a list that runs 11 lands and ESG's. Not one with 14 land, half the sideboard being a wishboard (and can possibly be more), and 0 ESG's. If a list top 4's with no wishboard, then I would disagree that my list + wishboard is a glass cannon or one trick pony etc. The plan B aggro works just fine by tutoring for archdruid as your first lord and after that either comboing or finishing up the aggro route with warcaller.


@ Archdruid.

I just got home from a local tourney. I went undefeated with a budget version of IBA's list (no G.Cradle). The Archdruid's won me a match against an opponent who kept shutting down my Living Wishes, forcing me to go aggro and race his Goyfs. In another match, E.Plagues out of the SB couldn't stop my green men. Anecdotal evidence, I know. But I <3's my Archdruids.

The first scenario is extremely broad but for the second scenario when you are playing against a deck that you know either for sure runs E.Plague or can run E.Plague then one of your first targets with a tutor should be a lord.

[bakofried]

Could we get a tournament report?

@Atikin
I think you need to shift your thinking concerning ESG. I haven't been unhappy with it, especially since you can use it as "Counter target Daze." Also, a 2/2 body isn't one to slouch at in a deck of 1/1s. Also, can you tell me what decks you're testing against? That information is helpful.

[Atikin]

Could we get a tournament report?

@Atikin
I think you need to shift your thinking concerning ESG. I haven't been unhappy with it, especially since you can use it as "Counter target Daze." Also, a 2/2 body isn't one to slouch at in a deck of 1/1s. Also, can you tell me what decks you're testing against? That information is helpful.

Most of it was against his bant deck.

[bakofried]

Could you be a wee bit more specific? There's CounterTop Bant, New Horizons, Stoneforge Bant Aggro, etc, etc. I'd just like to know what kind of disruption you're facing.

[Astrix]

@Atikin
1 David Yo did not top4 an fnm or local tourney:P
2 4 elvish arcdruids are not because u find one and go aggro plan.(u said u want to tutor and u know its not the same-manawise and losing the tutor)
4 elvish arcdruids are a force because u have along with 4 priests of titania another solid way of playing regal -emrakul(aka another plan instead of grlimspe) and because elvish arcdruids bythemselves are good in multiples without even glimpse or tutors.(thats the stronger aggro plan)
3 u dont have to play ESG to have archdruids(but i would suggest esg either way)

PS about that brainstorm fauna shaman -vengevine thing.i think we can all agree thats more like a survi-vine style deck and not a pure combo elves deck .its more like a hybrid...

[Atikin]

Could you be a wee bit more specific? There's CounterTop Bant, New Horizons, Stoneforge Bant Aggro, etc, etc. I'd just like to know what kind of disruption you're facing.

No stoneforges or CB's, 4 FOW 4 spell snare 4 daze 4 swords in maindeck.

[bakofried]

That seems pretty light on disruption that can actually hurt us. Spell Snare can hit critical cards, but it doesn't stop the glimpse plan, or swarming with Lords. I just don't know if that's a rough MU for any version of Elf-Combo.

[Atikin]

That seems pretty light on disruption that can actually hurt us. Spell Snare can hit critical cards, but it doesn't stop the glimpse plan, or swarming with Lords. I just don't know if that's a rough MU for any version of Elf-Combo.

Didnt have much choice when choosing what to playtest against :/

[bakofried]

I'm not decrying you for it. Playing against live opponents is always better than goldfishing; it's just that I'm trying to gauge how your data effects this deck. I just think that's an already positve MU. Good on you for having a testing partner, period, but the data isn't ideal for what I'm trying to do.

[Atikin]

I'm not decrying you for it. Playing against live opponents is always better than goldfishing; it's just that I'm trying to gauge how your data effects this deck. I just think that's an already positve MU. Good on you for having a testing partner, period, but the data isn't ideal for what I'm trying to do.

Irregardless if I was playing a deck where I wasnt forced to go aggro as much as I might have to in a real meta, the rest of my points should be fairly valid.

[catmint]

Atikin, I was also surprised by the fact that 4 archdruid and 2-3 ESG (sometimes used for fuel when comboing) off, does not hurt the combo at all! I can show you results from goldfishing, which prove that the combo is not hurt.

1) Turn 2 combos are still only possible if we have a supreme hand with llanowar, quirion, nettle, heritage (or pacts instead). Here the risk is that you draw only 3 drops and lands, but since comboing off like this does only happen about ~10% of the time AND if we get a second nettle you are also fine with 3 drops, it does not hurt that much!! Of course when K2's list starts of turn2 like this it is more reliable!

2) Running ESG Turn 2 combos are also possible with T1 priest of titania active.

3) Having 4 priest/4 archdruid means that you can drop the lord naturally by turn2 very often (3 mana turn 3 is really very common with manaelf, quirion, heritage, or just another forest) and can save your tutors for combo/regal force.
...as soon as you have an active lord it does not really matter how many 3 drops you run...

4) As we know in real life people love to counter or spot remove our lords, because they win us the game -> therefore the redundancy of playing 8 gives you resistence and the ability to recover faster.

[k2thej]

My build has gotten the reputation of the fast, streamlined one, which it pretty much is, but even I won't go for priests over archdruids. Archdruids are so important for the backup plan, and if you run 3 you rarely ever have multiples.

Most importantly, they fill the same roll as priests, while also being lords, which allows you to have more one drops in the main, making glimpse as efficient as possible. This benefit alone trumps priests. The deck is much more efficient with 3 archdruids and some more one drops than it is with 2 drops at the expense of both (i.e. 4 priest 1 druid instead of 3 druids 2 one-drops). You have to keep the one-drop count as high as possible, and if you are running more priest effects it does not do this, so save the space for them and use the card that fills both rolls.

[catmint]

Comparing K2 vs. 8 lord strategy in terms of comboing:

Advantage K2 vs. 8 lord:
There will be times where you have glimpse in turn 2, but you cannot go for it, because you dont have enough 1 drops.

Advantage 8 lord vs. K2:
If you dont have glimpse, a turn 2 lord for turn 3 regal force + going off is much more likely.

I tested both and I think the difference in terms of pure combo strength is similar or even stronger on the 8 lord side, because you only have about 45% chance to draw glimpse naturally without a regal force and K2's list is about 1 turn slower in casting the force and going off without glimpse initially. (K2, we are still waiting for your goldfishing to proof me wrong) :)

Taking into account aggro plan, resilience (vs. chalice for example) and ability to recover I think the decision to go for 8 lords is even more clear.

[k2thej]

I really don't think you can cast regal on turn 3 more frequently with lords. If you don't have a lord then dump your hand and play heritage and you'll be able to afford it. This plus tutors I think accounts for the difference. Which goldfish are you waiting for? I've posted quite a few sets of results previously. I can post a set of 50 fishes if you want, though it will have to be next week cause I am leaving for the weekend.

[Mr. Safety]

My build has gotten the reputation of the fast, streamlined one, which it pretty much is, but even I won't go for priests over archdruids. Archdruids are so important for the backup plan, and if you run 3 you rarely ever have multiples.

Most importantly, they fill the same roll as priests, while also being lords, which allows you to have more one drops in the main, making glimpse as efficient as possible. This benefit alone trumps priests. The deck is much more efficient with 3 archdruids and some more one drops than it is with 2 drops at the expense of both (i.e. 4 priest 1 druid instead of 3 druids 2 one-drops). You have to keep the one-drop count as high as possible, and if you are running more priest effects it does not do this, so save the space for them and use the card that fills both rolls.

I tested out Imperious Perfect extensively, mostly for the backup-win con and the mini-combo with Wirewood Symbiote...it's just one more way to abuse Symbiote other than Visionary, especially if Glimpse gets countered but you get a Perfect on the table. With that said...I made the change to Archdruid so I wouldn't have to also dedicate slots to Priests. I'm currently using 3, and TBH, it's just about right. Once again, Pact and Glimpse get you there. I'm tinkering with a build that uses 3x Archdruid and 1x Priest of Titania. I may cut the Priest, but I want to test it to see if it makes a difference or not. I'm also testing a singleton Perfect in the sideboard as a Pact target for the Symbiote/Perfect synergy in case I need the aggro win. It's easy to splash into the deck, most likely just taking that singleton Priest's spot.

[catmint]

I did not see your goldfishing... which page?

I am pretty sure it is much easier with lords to cast a force and win. Especially because you might need a pact for heritage or nettle to accumulate mana if you dont have a lord. You might need the pact for regal force though! Another factor is that casting force is not a win. With an active lord you just need 1 spare mana to drop another untapper and keep going. With ESG you can even pact for the mana to drop the untapper, which I already did once.

[catmint]

I tested out Imperious Perfect extensively, mostly for the backup-win con and the mini-combo with Wirewood Symbiote...it's just one more way to abuse Symbiote other than Visionary, especially if Glimpse gets countered but you get a Perfect on the table. With that said...I made the change to Archdruid so I wouldn't have to also dedicate slots to Priests. I'm currently using 3, and TBH, it's just about right. Once again, Pact and Glimpse get you there. I'm tinkering with a build that uses 3x Archdruid and 1x Priest of Titania. I may cut the Priest, but I want to test it to see if it makes a difference or not. I'm also testing a singleton Perfect in the sideboard as a Pact target for the Symbiote/Perfect synergy in case I need the aggro win. It's easy to splash into the deck, most likely just taking that singleton Priest's spot.

Sorry Mr. Safety: "TBH, it's just about right" is not an argument for me. See what I posted specifically about the different approaches and then state why you think it is better not to run 8 lords.

"Pact and Glimpse get you there". Well as I stated what about the 55% you dont have a glimpse.

"abuse imperious perfect with wirewood" That is just really bad (anoter 2/2 elf...) and shows you dont play with 8 lords. The best way to abuse wirewood is to untap a lord get a lot of mana and cast regal force or emrakul for the win in the same turn.

[Mr. Safety]

Sorry Mr. Safety: "TBH, it's just about right" is not an argument for me. See what I posted specifically about the different approaches and then state why you think it is better not to run 8 lords.

"Pact and Glimpse get you there". Well as I stated what about the 55% you dont have a glimpse.

"abuse imperious perfect with wirewood" That is just really bad (anoter 2/2 elf...) and shows you dont play with 8 lords. The best way to abuse wirewood is to untap a lord get a lot of mana and cast regal force or emrakul for the win in the same turn.

What are the 8 lords you would suggest using (4x Archdruids and 4x what exactly?) I am currently using 3x Archrduid and 1x Joraga Warcaller...and a Grapeshot win/con, not emrakul.

So what you're saying about Imperious Perfect is this: that it's bad to tap it for a 2/2 elf, untap with Ranger, make another 2/2 elf, untap it with Symbiote (bouncing Ranger), make another 2/2 elf? That's 6/6 worth of power. If you have any mana left you can re-play the Ranger, bounce ANOTHER elf (most likely itself), untap a mana-elf and make a 4th 2/2 elf. That's a potential (and not unreasonable likelihood) of 8/8 worth of power. Doesn't really seem like a bad plan if Glimpse gets countered...sure you could re-play Elvish Visionary, but that takes 2 mana...activating Perfect only takes 1 mana and replaying Rangers only takes 1 mana. You'll have to convince me that this is a bad situation...especially when all of those 2/2 elves can also tap for mana with Heritage/Birchlore.

[catmint]

MANAlord 4 archdruid and 4 Priest of Titania. Elves are good in producing mana. The aggro pump is not that important.
Same as in the list that was Top 4 in SCG and IBA's list.

Grapeshot or emrakul does not really matter altough emrakul is nice in a wish build. With 8 lords you can also regularly cast emrakul with untapping without glimpse. i.e: 1 lord, 5 elves (including quirion and heritage), 1 wirewood. 17 mana is no problem...

[Mr. Safety]

edited my post...sorry. Take a gander...

[catmint]

So what you're saying about Imperious Perfect is this: that it's bad to tap it for a 2/2 elf, untap with Ranger, make another 2/2 elf, untap it with Symbiote (bouncing Ranger), make another 2/2 elf? That's 6/6 worth of power. If you have any mana left you can re-play the Ranger, bounce ANOTHER elf (most likely itself), untap a mana-elf and make a 4th 2/2 elf. That's a potential (and not unreasonable likelihood) of 8/8 worth of power. Doesn't really seem like a bad plan if Glimpse gets countered...sure you could re-play Elvish Visionary, but that takes 2 mana...activating Perfect only takes 1 mana and replaying Rangers only takes 1 mana. You'll have to convince me that this is a bad situation...especially when all of those 2/2 elves can also tap for mana with Heritage/Birchlore.

It is bad compared to 15 power, anihilator 6 and an extra turn. :)
it is bad compared to a 5/5 and 5+ cards.

[Mr. Safety]

If Glimpse gets countered, your chance of drawing into Emrakul or Regal Force are pretty slim. You have a choice to make: invest in replaying Visionary to hopefully grab another glimpse, Emrakul, or Regal Force (or summoner's pact)...or you can invest in creating a sizeable board position with little/no risk of countermagic disruption. I don't think either is wrong, but I think it's a choice you have to make depending on the matchup and game state.

I can't tell you how many times I've had an opening hand that was hyper aggressive but didn't have Glimpse, Summoner's Pact, or Regal Force in it. I still won on turn 4...which is why I play Elves. I don't play Elves because it's a cool combo...I play elves because the ability to simply beatdown for the win is just as viable as winning with a combo. THIS is what makes it good...sure Glimpse gets you there, and most of the time its neccessary. BUT you are also able to just smack with beatsticks just as easily. That's where it's consistency comes from. If all you want is a cool, consistent combo, play TES. If you want a deckthat can play aggro OR combo just as easily, play Elves. That's my opinion...take it or leave it.

[catmint]

I respect your opinion Mr. Safety and we all love elves because there are many different ways to go for an aggro plan. I just think you did not consider all the options yet and therefore are not able to make the best choice!

In the build with 8 lords and effective 9 regal force (4 GSZ/Pact and 4 Living wish) your chance to cast a force is very high after glimpse is countered. Very often I even cast 2 regal force in one turn without a glimpse (did it twice in my local torney yesterday, which cought some attention). And guess what, you get another glimpse or build up a board that provides lethal damage in 1 swing.

Casting so many regal force recently made me also less fall in love with Visionary/Wirewood. I think this tech is a backup if nothing else is available. Therefore I cut down to two visionaries.

I suggest you try it out and judge then. I played a lot with and without lords and formed my opinion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm going to be busy for the next week and probably won't have much time to post, but I want to throw two bits in;

- I can confirm that, at least in my metagame where blue is everywhere, I actually win way more often by casting Regal Force via GSZ or Wish than by resolving Glimpse, which tends to draw Forces. This is also another point to playing GSZ over Summoner's Pact, as playing against Pact only requires the opponent to counter your maindeck Regal Force once, whereas you can cast GSZ at 7, have it be countered, and still be able to threaten the same again.

- As just a brief and admittedly somewhat fallacious appeal to authority, I do want to note that my list is largely based on David Vo's list, with the major change being Living Wish replacing Summoner's Pact and a subsequent rearrangement of certain cards to the sideboard. But the 8 Priest plan gives the deck a lot of power and versatility. The other list to do well recently is Nicholas Malatesta's, which, while quite different and not, I think, even quite the same deck, also has a very resilient backup plan (in fact, I'd argue that the Glimpse combo is his backup rather than primary). This despite the fact that it has a way to actually tutor for Glimpse if it needs to.

I'd argue that in order for a list do well, it absolutely has to have a line of attack that doesn't involve Glimpse. And casting Regal Force off of Priests is a better backup plan in turn than trying to beat down with a half dozen 2/2s that cost you a card each (which is okay as a tertiary plan, but not desirable except in an emergency).

- Elvish Champion is significantly the best Lord after to Archdruid to wish for, I think, since decks that run creatures tend to run forests (or are tribal decks with guys not significantly larger than yours on the averages).

[Atikin]

I respect your opinion Mr. Safety and we all love elves because there are many different ways to go for an aggro plan. I just think you did not consider all the options yet and therefore are not able to make the best choice!

In the build with 8 lords and effective 9 regal force (4 GSZ/Pact and 4 Living wish) your chance to cast a force is very high after glimpse is countered. Very often I even cast 2 regal force in one turn without a glimpse (did it twice in my local torney yesterday, which cought some attention). And guess what, you get another glimpse or build up a board that provides lethal damage in 1 swing.

Casting so many regal force recently made me also less fall in love with Visionary/Wirewood. I think this tech is a backup if nothing else is available. Therefore I cut down to two visionaries.

I suggest you try it out and judge then. I played a lot with and without lords and formed my opinion.

Never lose your love for symbiote, he is key against removal as well as unptapping priest/archdruid.

Also, what would you guys cut in my list for the archdruids, 2 birchlores?

[Koby]

Birchlore Ranger shines in K2's list as a compliment to Heritage Druid, and as a 1drop to continue comboing off. In the slower 8lord plan, he is not as important. I continue to run 1 for his colored mana producing ability, but otherwise he is expendable.

Although I am a fan of the manalord style to this deck, I'm not in love with Archdruid #3-4. Too often they have been caught in my hand that otherwise contain only tutors, which makes a really awkward hand to ramp up. They are also contingent on getting a manaelf out on turn 1. While this happens frequently, it doesn't happen every game. There is also the problem that you end up getting a mana elf but without the 2nd forest/Quirion Ranger to help ramp to 3 mana. For this reason, I rely less on Archdruid and more on Priest.

On versions that run Fauna Shaman, I do think it is 100% justified to run Viridian Shaman maindeck. Not so much for Wish versions.

I would say that there are three builds that are worth consideration:

1) Speed list (1 drops with Pact)
2) Manalord (Archdruid/Priest with GSZ)
3) Vengevine (Fauna Shaman)

The latter is a good consideration in a heavy black/red and Deedstill metagame, as Vengeveine provide inevitability against sweepers. Against Vial aggro metagames, I would recommend either (1) or (2), depending on play style. Manalord plan works better against a more blue metagame than does the Speed list.

[catmint]

I agree ruckus. Speed list is faster than lord list running GSZ.
But I run a 8 lord list with pact and I am as fast as the speed list. As I wrote before you loose some T2 attpemts, but make up by casting regal force 1 turn earlier!

[Mr. Safety]

I respect your opinion Mr. Safety and we all love elves because there are many different ways to go for an aggro plan. I just think you did not consider all the options yet and therefore are not able to make the best choice!

This is true. I am fairly new to the deck (playing it for about 9 months) and all choices are not tested by me yet. Can't argue with straight-up common sense like that. :wink:


In the build with 8 lords and effective 9 regal force (4 GSZ/Pact and 4 Living wish) your chance to cast a force is very high after glimpse is countered. Very often I even cast 2 regal force in one turn without a glimpse (did it twice in my local torney yesterday, which cought some attention). And guess what, you get another glimpse or build up a board that provides lethal damage in 1 swing.

You are describing, I believe, a way to make your combo even MORE consitent. I don't think we are really disagreeing here...I think I'm taking a much 'simpler minded' approach. If I don't get Glimpse/Regal Force/Summoner's Pact, I just hustle elves and beat face. You on the other hand focus on getting that combo, and you have more avenues (4 GSZ, Living Wish) to enable that. I'm curious, how often DO you go aggro for the win? It happens to me quite frequently, TBH, in testing.


Casting so many regal force recently made me also less fall in love with Visionary/Wirewood. I think this tech is a backup if nothing else is available. Therefore I cut down to two visionaries.

Another curious question for you: how many Regal Forces do you play maindeck? Is there one in the sideboard for Living Wish?


I suggest you try it out and judge then. I played a lot with and without lords and formed my opinion.

Once again, who can argue with logic like that? :tongue: I most certainly will (most likely MWS for now.) :wink:

[Koby]

The aggro plan to me is merely a shortcut way of explaining: I have not cast Emrakul/Grapeshot to ensure victory. I will pass the turn. In this situation, I simply attempt to attack profitably to bring the threat of attack step damage.

If for instance, there is a possibility that I can simply cast Joraga Warcaller large enough to alpha strike, then I go for it. Otherwise, most of the aggro plan ends up being a combo "fizzle" with all the left over mana being pumped into Lords.

The aggro plan is highly situational for this deck, and requires a careful read on your opponent. Sometimes, passing the turn with Joraga Warcaller on 2X kicker is enough. I wouldn't recommend it however, as he is still vulnerable to Lightning Bolt. I usually try to kick him for 4X or more.

[catmint]

You are describing, I believe, a way to make your combo even MORE consitent. I don't think we are really disagreeing here...I think I'm taking a much 'simpler minded' approach. If I don't get Glimpse/Regal Force/Summoner's Pact, I just hustle elves and beat face. You on the other hand focus on getting that combo, and you have more avenues (4 GSZ, Living Wish) to enable that. I'm curious, how often DO you go aggro for the win? It happens to me quite frequently, TBH, in testing.

I dont play 4GSZ. I use 4 Pact, because it makes a huge difference comboing off tight and is therefore 1 turn faster than 4 GSZ.
The aggro option for me is only if I dont have the chance to do something better (i.e.: combo, cast regal or setup regal for next turn).
If I turn dudes sidewards means I cannot use them for mana and if i would have to trade 1, I just let go the for example 7 damage to draw 1 more card with my regal force next turn. The problem with the aggro plan is also that you often face 1 monster that is bigger than your dudes and if you dont have wirewood and don't want to loose key elves, you cannot attack with all of them. Since the aggro plan is also slow it gives the opponent also time to do something about it. And decks can do something about it, because elves are not the only deck killing with a swarm and certainly not the best aggro option..

So it is very seldom that I just kill with beatdown, especially because it is usually a 2-4 turn clock and within this time I can just go off...

There are exceptions and it depends of course on the situation/matchup. If I have 4 elves on the board and 1 archdruid + 1 pact in hand. The standard would be play archdruid and go for regal force/win next turn. If I expect a firespout or a thoughtsieze and I am confident the aggro clock will hold I would try to pact for another archdruid and play it.

I don't play warcaller, because I feel it is only good if I have 5 mana. If I have 7 or more I rather cast a force, if I have 3 I go for a archdruid . There are some situations where a warcaller is just a win the same turn and he is also a 1 drop while comboing, but my spots are fought hard for and I rather run 1 viridan zealot.



Another curious question for you: how many Regal Forces do you play maindeck? Is there one in the sideboard for Living Wish?

1 MD, 1 Wish-board

[gypsy]

catmint can you post your list or tell me what page it is posted on?

[catmint]

I am going to test a white splash.
Mostly to wish for burrenton, Gadock Teeg and Kataki (A lot of artifact based games in my meta) and to run Orim's Chant over Mindbreak trap because it does not only help vs. como, but also vs. control and dredge. Still playing around with the SB. Another nice option with white is Dauntless escort.


Creatures
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Priest of Titania
2 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Viridian Zealot

Instants
4 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish

Lands
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah



SB

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Heritage Druid
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Orim's Chant
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender

[Koby]

You may want to consider Qasali Pridemage in place of Viridian Zealot's place. It lacks the Elf type, but it more than makes up for it by being able to actually kill Engineered Plague. This is the most important aspect that Zealot is not capable of doing. Granted, with 4 Archdruid that's not a big issue, but it does cost 1 mana less to activate than Zealot, so it's worthwhile consideration nonetheless.

[bakofried]

Matt Sperling took that route - but I think I'd still prefer more lords and maybe Wickerbough Elder in the side (for a wish-build). Zealot has the benefit of being hardcastable, as well as an elf.

[Koby]

LOL Sperling didn't build his own deck, he contracted out to Nass. I talked to him after our match in LA, and he didn't even realize why the QPM was in the deck - not realizing that Engineered Plague would be a problem. Didn't end up mattering for him that day, as hardly anyone ran E.Plague.

[bakofried]

Huh, wasn't aware of that. But I think my point still holds.

[Mr. Safety]

There has been a little buzz about Genesis Wave in this deck...I recently picked up a couple to see what I could do with them.

Anyone have any experience with Genesis Wave in their elves list?

[gypsy]

I played Genesis Wave but after seeing no one else here liked it I tried a GSZ/Pact configuration and it worked way better,Wave wasn;t bad, Im still trying to find a way to fit 1 in my deck, but its more an extra win condition and not a combo set up card

[Atikin]

I played Genesis Wave but after seeing no one else here liked it I tried a GSZ/Pact configuration and it worked way better,Wave wasn;t bad, Im still trying to find a way to fit 1 in my deck, but its more an extra win condition and not a combo set up card

Wave is redundant and pointless. Regal force draws more for less mana and comes with a 5/5 body. If you have buttloads of mana then cast emrakul or joraga warcaller and win.

[Kich867]

Genesis Wave is the alternate way to "combo off" without really doing it. When you have 2 priests, 2 llanowar-type's, 2 arch druids, and no glimpse in hand, you kinda feel like you want something, anything with X in it's cost.

Or this:


Wave is redundant and pointless. Regal force draws more for less mana and comes with a 5/5 body. If you have buttloads of mana then cast emrakul or joraga warcaller and win.

[gypsy]

its not like ur playing genesis wave over regal force, and there are many games where you can wave for a lot but can only regal force for like 4-5 cards with priest/archdruid with any quirion/symbiotes to untap them u can generate a lot more mana and "draw" more cards with genesis wave

[Atikin]

its not like ur playing genesis wave over regal force, and there are many games where you can wave for a lot but can only regal force for like 4-5 cards with priest/archdruid with any quirion/symbiotes to untap them u can generate a lot more mana and "draw" more cards with genesis wave

In a list as packed as elves you are definetly having to take out something in order to fit genesis wave in, and in a game where you can wave for a lot just warcaller for a lot, or cast emrakul... Theres no point in fitting in another win con that relies on lots of mana when we already have cards that are ment for the exact same situations.

[xazzax]

Genesis Wave is pure overkill ;P It's spectacular for 7 mana... but for that cost i can have regal force.
When i have more elves and more mana...regal is still better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm running a Nullmage Shepherd in the board to wish for to get past CB/Enchantress, and plenty of Lords to deal with Engineered Plague. There's really not any other enchantments worth caring about so my secondary target is Viridian Shaman which kills Jittes and such faster and goes insane against Affinity or Tezzeret-control type decks. Although against a deck like Merfolk you should probably Wish for Phyrexian Revoker since they don't have any other creature removal worth mentioning. But Zealot is still probably the best GSZ/Pact target due to low cost/versatility. The only thing it's weak against in particular is Plague, which you should be able to deal with if you run 4 Archdruid, so yeah.

@Safety:

Genesis Wave is pretty much always worse than Regal Force, even if you had a way to tutor for it which you don't. In fact I'd go so far as to say that it's probably worse, most of the time, than Sylvan Messenger.

[k2thej]

My friend suggested this and I think it is a good idea: Since canonist is one of our most important art/ench dest targets, it might be a good idea to run a Sylvok Replica in the board so we can wish for it and kill the canonist in the same turn. it's only one more mana than pride mage, and still has all the advantages ruckus mentioned of pride mage such as killing E plague, while also having this new advantage as well.

[bakofried]

It's an idea. I don't Zealot, though, so I'm not the best voice on the matter.

[Atikin]

What do you guys think of copperhorn scout?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My friend suggested this and I think it is a good idea: Since canonist is one of our most important art/ench dest targets, it might be a good idea to run a Sylvok Replica in the board so we can wish for it and kill the canonist in the same turn. it's only one more mana than pride mage, and still has all the advantages ruckus mentioned of pride mage such as killing E plague, while also having this new advantage as well.

I should've drafted this year I guess, this guy seems much better than Zealot. Also dodges Plague, and Counterbalance most of the time. Yeah, this is clearly superior as a Wish target to most other options. Not sure if it's worth keeping the Viridian Shaman to hose affinity.

[bakofried]

I'd keep in Shaman just to deal with Equipment. Personally, I think the guys you pop should allow you to combo out, whereas Shaman is more for settling in for the long-haul.

[Atikin]

I'd keep in Shaman just to deal with Equipment. Personally, I think the guys you pop should allow you to combo out, whereas Shaman is more for settling in for the long-haul.

What?

[gypsy]

Genesis Wave is pure overkill ;P It's spectacular for 7 mana... but for that cost i can have regal force.
When i have more elves and more mana...regal is still better.

regal isnt always better, and like i said its not like your cutting the regal force

[bakofried]

Well, when I look at Shaman I look at it primarily as an equipment or lock-piece killer. The downside is, it can't hit Counterbalance. The upside is, with a Symbiote in play, it turns into a mini-pernicious deed for their important dudes. So really, I value it more for its power when you have to grind a game with dudes than when you're actively comboing them out.

[Atikin]

regal isnt always better, and like i said its not like your cutting the regal force

Regardless if you arent cutting regal force, you are still cutting something for another win con, which we dont need. When you put a card into a deck you have to ask yourself what is it gonna be used for/what matchups/what situations. We already have win cons covering most possible sitatuions a lot better than wave and thus it is redundant and unneeded. I honestly dont know why we are discussing such a terrible card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No, I concur, Regal is pretty much just always better. I can't even imagine a situation where Genesis Wave does more for you. Force will always draw more cards, and if you have the mana to make it more than a glorified Sylvan Messenger, you have the mana to cast your guys after dropping Force. Force with two floating is infinitely better than Wave 6, both in the situation where Glimpse has been resolved and not, and you can actually find Force. If you run Wave there's no reason not to run the second Force in its spot instead, and do you really need two Regal Forces main? Not really.

[bakofried]

Well, in other news, I'm getting a bit better with Rice Krispies (IBA's version). I was wondering what your sideboard looked like right now, IBA.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

atm:

1 Heritage Druid
1 Nettle Sentinel
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Terastodon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Elvish Champion

2 Shusher might be worthwhile if you want a second to bring in as a GSZ target. Viridian Zelaot would serve the same role next to Replica, but you'd have to figure that all out based on meta. Wasteland might be worth cutting, as might Terastodon. Really the only reason for Terastodon right now is that it's your primary way to wreck High Tide for a major discount over Emrakul.

[gypsy]

Im not saying to play the card, someone asked about it, and i let him know my experience with the card. the card isnt as bad as you guys think, but i have stopped playing the card

[k2thej]

@Bear- is it really worth having the 4th heritage/nettle in the board? I think their value decreases tremendously once their cmc goes up to 3.

[Mr. Safety]

Concerning Genesis Wave: I was looking at it as an alternative to Glimpse, not Regal Force. I only play 1 Regal Force, and the ways I get him are Summner's Pact and Glimpse. If I have an untapped Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid but no Force/Warcaller/Pact I would really like something powerful enough that I could sink 7-8 mana into. Sylvan Messenger puts the cards into your hand and Wave puts them on the battlefield, so it really isn't a fair comparison (I've tested SM, and it was always a dissapointment because it didn't let you keep a regal force/glimpse if you flipped it in your top 4) Now Genesis Wave doesn't let you play Glimpse either...but you at least get some dudes on the table rather than in hand (keep in mind this is WITHOUT Glimpse being played) Once you have Glimpse, Wave is a dead flip (much like a land flip) mid-combo.

I was looking for Glimpse #5, not Regal Force #2. If I need another Regal Force...I'll play another Regal Force, lol.

Interested to hear thoughts on it.

[gypsy]

Genesis Wave is really good when it works, but clunky when u dont draw a priest/archdruid

[5doorfury]

Hey all,

For anybody who has had a lot of experience with the Elves v. aggro-loam matchup (chalices, EE, & seismic assaults), what has your approach been in the matchup? I am a bit stumped as to a good way to gain any kind of real leverage in the matchup.

For reference, I am playing a list very close to David Vo's and running NO/progenitus package out of the side. The NO package was very good against them, but that is only if I get it... Do I just have to mull into natural order? Or does some one else have a better idea?

[catmint]

If you play David Vo's list you have 4 Archdruid, 4 Titania, 2 GSZ, 4 Pact + 1 Viridian Zealot. With that configuration a chalice is still painful, but you have a bigger chance of getting some elves / lords into play and use zealot to get rid of chalice and/or go for an aggro win. Easier said than done, since chalice is often followed by trinisphere, golems, tanglewire and smokestack. NO Progenitus used to be my prefered SB option vs this kind of decks, but since I play a wish build now there is no space for that. I use Kataki, War's Wage , Viridian Shaman, Krosan Grip and David Vo's 8 lords to deal with that.

EE on 1 does not kill priest of Titania/Archdruid. It is a setback of course but not a loss.

Seismic Assault? Never seen that in legacy, since land tax is banned.

[bakofried]

You're talking about Stax, catmint. Aggro Loam rarely runs half those cards, if any. NO/Progenitus is probably your best bet here.

[Infinitium]

Hey all,

For anybody who has had a lot of experience with the Elves v. aggro-loam matchup (chalices, EE, & seismic assaults), what has your approach been in the matchup? I am a bit stumped as to a good way to gain any kind of real leverage in the matchup.

For reference, I am playing a list very close to David Vo's and running NO/progenitus package out of the side. The NO package was very good against them, but that is only if I get it... Do I just have to mull into natural order? Or does some one else have a better idea?

I'd say the matchup is manageable as long as you stop their land recursion, so bring in Relic of Progenitus if you've got it and try casting it ASAP (even before mana elves as long as you can cast additional forests) to keep their GY on the backburner and you should have time aplenty to set up a winning hand. Viridian Shaman is the best answer to Chalice and Symbiote can help you recover from sweepers and block lone Crushers all day long.

The matchup does get way worse when they run Devastating Dreams however since you typically cannot recover from it (due to not having lands), in which case you just have to go for broke and pray that you hit Glimpse (or NO should you run it, just remember Anarchy is still a pretty viable Wishcard for them).

[Koby]

Hey all,

For anybody who has had a lot of experience with the Elves v. aggro-loam matchup (chalices, EE, & seismic assaults), what has your approach been in the matchup? I am a bit stumped as to a good way to gain any kind of real leverage in the matchup.

For reference, I am playing a list very close to David Vo's and running NO/progenitus package out of the side. The NO package was very good against them, but that is only if I get it... Do I just have to mull into natural order? Or does some one else have a better idea?

From my experience on both sides (playing Elves vs Aggro Loam, and vice versa), Devastating Dream is pretty brutal against Elves. Seismic Assault is also very very good against us. The ultimate way that Aggro Loam beats Elves is using Chalice @1. If this isn't present, then Elves should have no problems winning. If it does show up, it's fighting uphill against an eventual lock out with Seismic or DDreams.

As Infinitium stated, Relic is useful - but it's not guaranteed. Iit does buy you ample time (2-3 turns).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

@k2: The Heritage Druid has definitely been amazingly useful in the board. I've wished for Sentinel substantially less often, but I haven't really had problems with him main either. Sometimes you do just really want to get your second Sentinel out and it's worth three mana now if it ensures your ability to continue the combo.

[5doorfury]

I'd say the matchup is manageable as long as you stop their land recursion, so bring in Relic of Progenitus if you've got it and try casting it ASAP (even before mana elves as long as you can cast additional forests) to keep their GY on the backburner and you should have time aplenty to set up a winning hand. Viridian Shaman is the best answer to Chalice and Symbiote can help you recover from sweepers and block lone Crushers all day long.

The matchup does get way worse when they run Devastating Dreams however since you typically cannot recover from it (due to not having lands), in which case you just have to go for broke and pray that you hit Glimpse (or NO should you run it, just remember Anarchy is still a pretty viable Wishcard for them).


Thanks for your input Infinitium, I agree with GY hate helping here, the problem is that I also want/need to side in 8 cards already (4 NO, 1 Progenitus, 3 K-grip) and 3 more can be tough. The other problem is that Relic of Progen gets countered by a chalice at 1, and thus is potentially rendered useless (because if they don't have chalice at 1 early, I should win anyways), which would almost force my GY package to be all Crypts then.

Going along with this, the GY hate seems like it will only help stop one part of the problem, if they have that plan in their hand (vs. just playing chalice at 1)... But, I will happily try it out when we playtest tonight!!

[gypsy]

I dont think playing grave yard hate is good vs Seismic Loam as I feel their loam recursion is just too slow to really deal with elves so its bad to mess up your deck with a ton of sideboard cards and lose your consistency. I would board in either the NO package OR the krosan grips but not both as taking out 8 cards messes up the decks synergy way too much

[Mr. Safety]

Genesis Wave is really good when it works, but clunky when u dont draw a priest/archdruid

I thought that was what Summoner's Pact was for? lol, sorry. I think Wave can be useful. I will be playtesting 2 in place of Fyndhorn Elves x2. We'll see how that effects the game when I have fewer Llanowars.

[gypsy]

Pacts never been clunky for me lol. But ya Wave is a lot better then the people here who bash it think, but I have moved to GSZ instead because Wave is only good when u have a lot of mana, but when you do it is really good, whereas zenith is good when u have a lot of mana and helps start the combo. I dunno if cutting Fyndhorn is what you want to cut for Wave because they dont have the same functionality

[Kich867]

I'm playing a rather ghetto version at the moment, using Genesis Wave's as glimpses 4&5 (only got 3 because I thought I had a fourth, turns out I sold it like 3 months ago, super sad panda), and while not insanely optimal, they help out a lot with the aggro plan.

Hitting a Genesis Wave for 10-15 isn't particularly hard on turn 3-4 (I utilize 2 Quirion Ranger's and 2 Wirewood Symbiote's to abuse Priest of Titania's mana production). It's definitely not as nice as going off with Glimpse, but it's a solid alternate aggro plan that gets around a lot of things like Chalice and Meddling Mage effects.

When I get the rest of the deck I'd like to try and throw a singleton Concordant Crossroad's in and just kind of fiddle with how a Genesis Wave for 15 > XRoads > Swing works out. The biggest issue with Genesis Wave is losing glimpses to it, but generally if you're hitting a wave you're hitting it hard and you -should- win the next turn anyways barring divine intervention and terrible awful pulls (the lovely 15 card pull with somehow no lords in it whatsoever...).

However, it is obvious that things can go wrong with Genesis Wave--for one it doesn't work with Glimpse which sucks (whereas Regal Force does, though on the flip side, if you Genesis Wave for 15 and hit a Regal Force, you can always just put that one into play last, then draw a crap ton of cards and keep rolling...) It's also a little easier to stop sometimes.

[Mr. Safety]

My biggest fear with Genesis Wave is that soft counters like Daze and Spell Pierce end up becoming useful in the mid-game. I might leave 1 mana floating for Daze, but leaving 2 open for Spell Pierce would drive me BATTY.

I am currently testing it though...I'll let you know how it goes, along with a decklist in a few days.

[Koby]

My biggest fear with Genesis Wave is that soft counters like Daze and Spell Pierce end up becoming useful in the mid-game. I might leave 1 mana floating for Daze, but leaving 2 open for Spell Pierce would drive me BATTY.

I am currently testing it though...I'll let you know how it goes, along with a decklist in a few days.

That's probably a good reason why Genesis Wave isn't the ideal spell for this deck.

[Atikin]

I dont get some of the decisions the people in this thread make. Of all the good plays this deck can make, a turn 1 manowar is probably the most important. Cutting 2 manowars for genesis wave is just stupid. They serve no where near similar roles, one being a win more that is nearly strictly worse than its counterparts, and only better if you somehow have more than 10 mana (regal for less) but cant make 17 mana (for emrakul) AND happen to have wave in hand. Outside of this exact situation, not only is wave inferior to our other finishers, but completely dead in hand compared to something like a regal force that draws more and comes witha 5/5 body. There really isnt a single argument you can make for wave other than the exact situation where youve made more than 10 mana but cant muster enough for emrakul, and even then you cant tutor for it or anything of the like. In summary, not only is it extremely specific, but when it is finally better than regal itll only be better slightly.

Basically regal>wave in 9 out of 10 situations.

[k2thej]

I dont get some of the decisions the people in this thread make. Of all the good plays this deck can make, a turn 1 manowar is probably the most important. Cutting 2 manowars for genesis wave is just stupid. They serve no where near similar roles, one being a win more that is nearly strictly worse than its counterparts, and only better if you somehow have more than 10 mana (regal for less) but cant make 17 mana (for emrakul) AND happen to have wave in hand. Outside of this exact situation, not only is wave inferior to our other finishers, but completely dead in hand compared to something like a regal force that draws more and comes witha 5/5 body. There really isnt a single argument you can make for wave other than the exact situation where youve made more than 10 mana but cant muster enough for emrakul, and even then you cant tutor for it or anything of the like. In summary, not only is it extremely specific, but when it is finally better than regal itll only be better slightly.

Basically regal>wave in 9 out of 10 situations.

Ya, wave has come up many times in the thread, it lasts a page or so, and then people realize it sucks again. I had a good heated argument with some kid a while ago about it, see if you can find it. I don't remember who it was, but he was convinced wave was a good idea. I think until someone can really provide a new argument for it we should really put it bed, it just detracts from the conversation.

[k2thej]

Here is an update on my build:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
1 ?
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Krosan Grip
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Sylvok Replica
4 Vexing Shusher


The sideboard is of the utmost important to the wish build right now. Here is a breakdown of it after more testing on my own, and input from my friend who is testing on mtgo, and just played it in a gpt:

Definite in card and quantity:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Regal Force
3-4 Vexing Shusher

Probably in:
1 Joraga Warcaller
3-4 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvok Replica

Maybe in:
1 Masticore

and one extra slot

Figuring out what this last slot should be would be really huge.
Do we need shaman if we already have sylvok replica? Shaman can be recurred, but is it worth the slot?
Is Masticore worth a slot when he is pretty much just for peacekeeper? Would a wasteland for tabernacle and such be better?
I don't think we particularly need GY hate, but if we do, Mccabre seems like the best option.
My friend suggested Phyrexian Metamorph in the board. We can copy fun things and it kills jitte. I'm not sure if it is better than shaman for that job since shaman can be recurred, and can't tell if the copying is really relevant.


So thoughts on how to round out the board?

[Atikin]

Here is an update on my build:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
1 ?
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Krosan Grip
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Sylvok Replica
4 Vexing Shusher


The sideboard is of the utmost important to the wish build right now. Here is a breakdown of it after more testing on my own, and input from my friend who is testing on mtgo, and just played it in a gpt:

Definite in card and quantity:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Regal Force
3-4 Vexing Shusher

Probably in:
1 Joraga Warcaller
3-4 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvok Replica

Maybe in:
1 Masticore

and one extra slot

Figuring out what this last slot should be would be really huge. Do we need shaman if we already have sylvok replica? Shaman can be recurred, but is it worth the slot? Is Masticore worth a slot when he is pretty much just for peacekeeper? Would a wasteland for tabernacle and such be better? I don't think we particularly need GY hate, but if we do, Mccabre seems like the best option. So thoughts on how to round out the board?

I feel like we need to focus a huge part of our SB on combo, and use singletons in combination with 4 living wish in order to battle control. Im personally not too comfortable with having a near 80% chance of losing to one DTB and around 60-70% to another.

[Koby]

RE: Wish-board

Would Duplicant be the card we're looking for? It answers Peacekeeper (permanently too), and also any other large fatties that may hinder, such as Blazing Archon, Emrakul, etc. The only troubling part is the mana cost.

[k2thej]

RE: Wish-board

Would Duplicant be the card we're looking for? It answers Peacekeeper (permanently too), and also any other large fatties that may hinder, such as Blazing Archon, Emrakul, etc. The only troubling part is the mana cost.

why is duplicant better than metamorph?

@Atikin- suggestions on cards? Thorn takes up too many spots for the potential payoff. A creature would be perfect, but preferrably one that doesn't hurt us as well. The problem is that combo answers need to get in play super quick and a sorcery-speed 2cmc wish is not really the ideal way to do that.

[Atikin]

why is duplicant better than metamorph?

@Atikin- suggestions on cards? Thorn takes up too many spots for the potential payoff. A creature would be perfect, but preferrably one that doesn't hurt us as well. The problem is that combo answers need to get in play super quick and a sorcery-speed 2cmc wish is not really the ideal way to do that.

Ive been thinking something like: 1x Faerie Macabre for Dredge, 4x Mindbreak Trap to bring in against combo, and am currently scrounging through gatherer looking for a good mono green creature against combo and sb material in general.

EDIT: Maybe 1x Devoted Druid against bridges to bring into main?

EDIT: Tajuru Preserver is interesting.

[Infinitium]

Heap Doll is a good card versus Dredge specifically since their only out to it is Darkblast and it simultaneously answers bridges and Dread Return, but it's very narrow in it's application. Bojuka Bog and Macabre along with your usual clock should be more than enough to consistently beat the deck if you also side in artifact gy-hate (again, Relic is probably the best since it gives most to all decks that relies on recursion in the lategame fits).

[Atikin]

Heap Doll is a good card versus Dredge specifically since their only out to it is Darkblast and it simultaneously answers bridges and Dread Return, but it's very narrow in it's application. Bojuka Bog and Macabre along with your usual clock should be more than enough to consistently beat the deck if you also side in artifact gy-hate (again, Relic is probably the best since it gives most to all decks that relies on recursion in the lategame fits).

Thats probably true. I just mentioned devoted druid as its only 2 mana and counts as a green elf so we can tutor it, perhaps freeing up SB room. It is extremely narrow in application though.

[Koby]

why is duplicant better than metamorph?


Duplicant answers both Peacekeeper and the legends. Metamorph only answers the legends. Since the sideboard space is at a premium, having a card that gives the most utility is preferred.

While Masticore does also answer them, you need an obscene amount of mana to do so. Duplicant only needs 6. Another consideration is Shriekmaw with conjunction of Birchlore Ranger's mana. It also helops against dredge by sac'ing himself.

[Atikin]

Duplicant answers both Peacekeeper and the legends. Metamorph only answers the legends. Since the sideboard space is at a premium, having a card that gives the most utility is preferred.

While Masticore does also answer them, you need an obscene amount of mana to do so. Duplicant only needs 6. Another consideration is Shriekmaw with conjunction of Birchlore Ranger's mana. It also helops against dredge by sac'ing himself.

Pardon me if Im wrong, but I dont think duplicant can target a progenitus.

[Koby]

Progenitus is at best, a 2 turn clock.

If you can't win within 2 turns of Progenitus coming out, you probably needed to mulligan.

[Darklingske]

Heap Doll is a good card versus Dredge specifically since their only out to it is Darkblast and it simultaneously answers bridges and Dread Return, but it's very narrow in it's application. Bojuka Bog and Macabre along with your usual clock should be more than enough to consistently beat the deck if you also side in artifact gy-hate (again, Relic is probably the best since it gives most to all decks that relies on recursion in the lategame fits).

As a long time dredge player, I can say that heap doll does nothing against Dredge. Removing 1 card in the graveyard is only a minor speedbump to dredge. And you have to put the doll in play on turn 1 to be a bit useful. And an experienced Dredge player will just dredge enough to flood the board and force you to sac the doll, only to continue the very next turn.
I just don't think Ichorid is such a bad MU that you have to dedicate SBspace to extremely marginal useful cards.

[Infinitium]

The 1 card does matter when it makes DReturn a 3-for-null deal (no fatso, no tokens, no nothing). Not being a oneshot like Bog (relevant since we cannot kill PImp/Tribe) or a Therapy target like Faerie is also points in its favor. It's a speedbump at best, but then again it's all it ever needed to be and it does a better job of it than the alternatives. Also, Relic is far from marginally useful - most decks in legacy that generates card advantage or quality does so through the GY, and Relic just shuts that down hard.

@Metamorph: For this to be useful you have to have a gamestate where you're staring down Progenitus (the only relevant card that this exclusively deals with) whilst simultaneously being in a situation where you cannot race BUT have access to more than 5 mana (but less than, say, 17) AND a Wish on hand. That's extremely narrow. The same can be said for Karakas - the relevant cards that that deals with are reanimated Iona and SnT Emrakul where the former can be preemptively dealt with by Faerie Macabre and the latter by an Emrakul on your own.

[Mr. Safety]

I dont get some of the decisions the people in this thread make. Of all the good plays this deck can make, a turn 1 manowar is probably the most important. Cutting 2 manowars for genesis wave is just stupid. They serve no where near similar roles, one being a win more that is nearly strictly worse than its counterparts, and only better if you somehow have more than 10 mana (regal for less) but cant make 17 mana (for emrakul) AND happen to have wave in hand. Outside of this exact situation, not only is wave inferior to our other finishers, but completely dead in hand compared to something like a regal force that draws more and comes witha 5/5 body. There really isnt a single argument you can make for wave other than the exact situation where youve made more than 10 mana but cant muster enough for emrakul, and even then you cant tutor for it or anything of the like. In summary, not only is it extremely specific, but when it is finally better than regal itll only be better slightly.

Basically regal>wave in 9 out of 10 situations.

*sigh* I"m about 99% convinced you're right...my stubborn nature just wants a chance at playing it is all. Most likely the other 2 Fyndhorn Elves will make their way back in.

Appreciate your candor.

BTW, I'm not using Emrakul OR a Wish-board...I'm old skool with Grapeshot.

[k2thej]

So the basic choices are:

Metamorph: Answers all legendary creatures (progenitus, Emrkaul), AND legendary artifacts, namely, jitte. Doesn't answer peacekeeper.

Duplicant: answers all creatures except for progenitus, does not answer jitte

Shriekmaw: Answers peacekeeper, but not much else. Since it doesnt answer canonist, emrakul, jitte, etc, this seems like a less than optimal choice.

[Koby]

Shriekmaw does kill Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. The latter is colorless, but not an artifact.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

*sigh* I"m about 99% convinced you're right...my stubborn nature just wants a chance at playing it is all. Most likely the other 2 Fyndhorn Elves will make their way back in.

Appreciate your candor.

BTW, I'm not using Emrakul OR a Wish-board...I'm old skool with Grapeshot.

...Surely you've Waved your own Grapeshot into the yard.

Although this is the least of the reason to cut Genesis Wave and run Wish for Emrakul.

[Richard Cheese]

Shriekmaw does kill Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. The latter is colorless, but not an artifact.

Despite Emrakul's protection from colored spells?

[Koby]

Despite Emrakul's protection from colored spells?

Shriekmaw, while on the stack, is a spell. Shriekmaw, when it's ability triggers, is a creature/permanent. Emrakul only has protection from being targetting by cards that are in the Stack.

[Richard Cheese]

Oh nice, I always get caught by the "when" vs. "as" bit.

[k2thej]

So opinions on which to go for? Ruckus, what are you thinking

[NihilObstat]

Here is an update on my build:
4 Vexing Shusher

When did you decide on Shusher over Leyline and why?? I'm really interested!

[Koby]

So opinions on which to go for? Ruckus, what are you thinking

For mono-green versions:
1x Duplicant or 1x Masticore to deal with troublesome creatures (preferrence call?)

For black-splash:
1x Shriekmaw

I like the idea of Metamorph pulling the feet under from Legends, but I don't really see legendary creatures as a threat to Combo Elves. Others may disagree, but I stand by my own assessment of the matchup.

[k2thej]

When did you decide on Shusher over Leyline and why?? I'm really interested!

I started to get really frustrated with having to mull for leylines. The tutors make Shusher better, and you can still combo with it.

@Ruckus- I'd agree with that. I tend to be a big fan of the shaman/symbiote synergy.

[unemployer]

I have been playing Elves combo for more than a year now. I have settled a decklist and I'm using it for the past couple of months. I just played on a big tournament and started 3-1. When I started playing against guys with the same standings, I found out that I wasn't really prepared with the meta and lost 2 games straight. I lost the mood playing after round 6 and dropped.

Zoo - This one the game that changed... Too much removal on G2 and G3. When I 'seized him, I saw Revoker and Canonist. Seeing my hand, I had discarded Canonist while he played revoker naming heritage druid. I had a birchlore and he had no removal cards "yet" and I thought that would be just fine until he topdecked a stp. He already got nacatl in play then played tarmo while I have 2 Heritage and 1 Nettle. I cannot combo out because of the lock in heritage druid. I already lost 1 Gleeful sabotage already because of the early canonist in play.

Sideboards are:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (pretty good for burn, ant, mbc)
3 Thoughtseize (anti combo)
2 Krosan Grip (anti plague, cb, canonist, revoker, etc)
2 Gleeful Sabotage (anti plague, cb, canonist, revoker, etc)
1 Qasali Pridemage (anti plague, cb, canonist, revoker, etc)
1 Gaddock Teeg (anti dredge and combo)
2 Faerie Macabre (anti dredge and reanimator)

I play Combo elves with Mirror Entity and Tendrils of Agony. Do i need to change anything with my boards?

[gypsy]

whats your md?? i rly dont like your sideboard that much, and i dont like mirror entity or tendrils. and sometimes ppl just have bad zoo decks with infi hate and u lose

[gypsy]

I changed up my list from the 8 archdruid/priest that i had been playing recently to more 1 drop heavy version that matt sperling posted and went 3-1 at a small weekly legacy tournament at my local store. I was very impressed with the list and probably should have been 4-0 but made a small judgement call and fizzled after my storm opponent messed up and drew out of it. heres what i played

1 Birchlore Ranger
3 Llanowar Elf
3 Fyndhorn elf
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
1 priest of titania
1 viridian zealot
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish spirit guide
1 emrakul
2 regal force
4 Green sun zenith
4 glimpse
3 summoners pact
4 forest
1 bayou
1 dryad arbor
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 gaeas cradle

sb
3 vengevine
4 buried alive
4 cabal therapy
2 krosan grip
1 viridian shaman
1 mortarpod

I had been finding the priest/archdruid version a little too slow and wanted to speed the deck up, i beat Uw thopter counerbalance, UBW Tezz Thopter sword and dredge and lost to storm although it was rly close. I really like this version better then the other ones as i found it a little bit faster without losing much consistency or resilience

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How is that list faster?

I mean you have no way to win except draw into and hope to resolve a Glimpse, whereas Priest/Archdruid lists can just hardcast/Zenith for a Regal Force.

Speaking of which cutting the Cradles, Emrakul and second Force for Living Wishes just seems strictly better.

[gypsy]

I hardcast regal all the time

[gypsy]

I guess everyone just prefers their own version of elves and this is the one that I have liked the most

[Koby]

Also the Dryad Arbor w/o Natural Order package is not optimal. Since it doesn't serve the need for casting Natural Order, the Dryad Arbor will end up hurting your mana development at the most inopportune times (like in an opening hand). I would consider cutting it altogether.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I guess everyone just prefers their own version of elves and this is the one that I have liked the most

While it helps to enjoy playing a deck, the ultimate point of this thread is list optimization. Let's not us fall into the two hot girls fallacy.


I hardcast regal all the time

Statistically it's going to be far less than with the full set of Priests/Druids, and especially, with Wish, less often that you can simply cast Emrakul without having to combo off; even more important post-Misstep.

[Solar Ice]

Let's not us fall into the two hot girls fallacy.


Can you explain that, please? (Serious question, I have not heard this one before)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a random reference to Source history, the Hatfields were explaining why Mental Note was bad in old Threshold decks and someone said something like, "Well, either way Threshold is such a good deck that I feel arguing about Mental Note vs. (I think the slot in question was Portent, this being pre-Ponder) is like arguing which is hotter between two really hot girls."

This obviously not being a serious argument from a competitive standpoint.

[Atikin]

I guess everyone just prefers their own version of elves and this is the one that I have liked the most

This thread isnt for "what do you like"? Its about "whats going to win the most"? So many arguements in this thread are ending with "well you have your way and I have my way" which really doesnt progress or streamline this deck at all. Theres no way that the 4ish possible versions floating around are all equally strong. In all decks, especially one that relies heavily on a combo, all the cards need to be streamlined and choices thought out thoroughly. Randomly putting in cards, and saying you did good at one 10 man tourney, is not enough justification for yourself to keep the decklist as is. Especially when someone tries to suggest different, perhaps even better choices. Also, some sort of report of how the cards you chose actually affected your games in a way that another choice wouldnt have would be extremely informative and helpful.

[gypsy]

I didnt say the list i posted was better just that I have been liking it more. In magic I feel there is no such thing as an optimal decklist, it just comes down to personal preference and play style. I found with the Archdruids version I would fizzle a lot more because I would glimpse into multiple archdruids and priests and would run out of mana when comboing off. The 4 versions arent equally strong but they are each better in certain situations and suit their pilots play style

[k2thej]

I didnt say the list i posted was better just that I have been liking it more. In magic I feel there is no such thing as an optimal decklist, it just comes down to personal preference and play style. I found with the Archdruids version I would fizzle a lot more because I would glimpse into multiple archdruids and priests and would run out of mana when comboing off. The 4 versions arent equally strong but they are each better in certain situations and suit their pilots play style

If you want to run the fastest list possible (though not the most resilient list to control), I think most people agree that mine is the fastest...am I right about this? Feel free the contradict me but I thought the general opinion of mine is that it's fast but riskier. If you want a streamlined build (like you said you liked, with heavier emphasis on one drops), I don't think you're gonna get much faster than mine.

@Bear- with regards to regal force, I hardcast force in around 60% or so of games (only when I need to) and I run 3 archdruids and no priests. It's very easy with only one drops even if you don't have a glimpse. I can't think of a time where I have needed him and not been able to afford him.

[gypsy]

Its not that i wanted a faster list exactly, although the list i played i killed turn 2 multiple times and turn 3 every other time i was able to combo off, I just found archdruids clunky when I was going off and they would cause me to fizzle so i was looking for a list that didnt have them and was rly happy with what i played (at least my md, sb needs work). and ya hardcasting regal force with just 1 drops and/or cradle hasnt been a problem for me either don't know why you dont think I cant hardcast it without glimpse. Sure I lose some of the ability to go beatdown but I have succesfully gone beatdown many time without archdruids.

[catmint]

k2, I dont think your list ist faster than mine. As I already mentioned I think you might have about 5% more combo off T2 when you have a glimpse in hand, but if you dont it takes you most of the time until T4 to cast a regal force and win, while my list does it in Turn 3. I know you dont' care that much because you like to go aggro, but in terms of "casting emrakul by Turn 3 percentage" I think I can beat you!

...casting regal force 60% of the time sounds reasonable, but the question is what turn and if you are able to win the same turn or need another one!

@Gypsy... welcome to the elve thread. I think if you want to argue you should try to be more specific and "professional".
casting regal force "all time time" or "hasnt been a problem"
killed turn 2 "multiple times"
combo off turn 3 "every other time". These statements don't give any information because we all know that. I would be careful with too strong statements like "every". MAybe you had a run, but variance plays a big part here. You need a good sample size.

So, if you claim that you list ist faster / more consistent than others you should prove it (goldfish data) or at least explain common scenarios or plays why you think it is faster than other lists, so we have actually something to argue about.

I can assure you: Your list is not faster or more consistent in comboing and has no aggro plan and therefore not good overall.

The reasons why your list is not fast are
- that you are running 4 GSZ and only 3 pact. Pact is the best elf and 4 are a must in a fast combo list.
- You are running 16 lands. The common numbers are 13-14 but we have seen lists with 11 lands.
- If you dont have glimpse in hand it is much more difficult for you to cast a regal force, because 8 lords and 8 untappers just own the place and you need 2 nettle and the possibility to play some elves to accumulate mana or 5 elves and a cradle. Still even if you cast regal force you will start the combo with little mana and it will be tight. If you cast force with an active mana-lord you just need 1 mana and an untapper to get going easily.

Concerning fizzling with lords:
Yes, if you start comboing it is tough to draw priest/archdruid. However that makes up by comboing off with an active priest/archdruid where it is sooo easy with all the untappers. I can prove 97% successful finish the combo with a 8 lord list!

Other reasons why 8 lords are better in game:
More resilient to removal/countermagic. You use the redundancy of playing 8 lords and just play them out.
Simply said: If they survive you win, if not you play another one. With your list it is necessarry to go "all in" and play all your elves to be able to cast a regal force.

You have a build in aggro plan, which you can fall back on if suitable or everything else fails. Imagine the scenario you have 7 mana and regal is countered you have 5+ 1/1. If I have 5 elves and 1 is an archdruid and my regal force is countered, I can easily play another archdruid and have 5+ 3/3.

With 8 lords you have a built in plan vs canonist or chalice at 1. you will still be able to cast your lords and get mana for regal force with these cards in play. Not saying that it is an easy matchup, but with your list the chance is very low once these hate pieces are in place.

Archdruid also helps vs. bad hate cards such as fire/ice (not giving 2 to 1) and Plague.

...there are probably many other reasons but I have to go to bed now :)

[bakofried]

I'm just going on the record here that personal preference is only good for picking a deck - past that, you're, in all likelihood (as in gypsy's case) running a suboptimal list.

Don't get this confused with meta-choices, however. That's an entirely different animal.

[gypsy]

I'm just going on the record here that personal preference is only good for picking a deck - past that, you're, in all likelihood (as in gypsy's case) running a suboptimal list.

Don't get this confused with meta-choices, however. That's an entirely different animal.

this isnt true at all, there isnt 1 single optimal list for every single deck

[Atikin]

this isnt true at all, there isnt 1 single optimal list for every single deck

Thats true, but your list IS suboptimal and your defence is "I like it, i won my local 10 man tourney." You should always be open to change in your list, especially when people are writing well thought out arguements.

[gypsy]

I never said the list i played was better or more consistent than anyone elses list, just that I found it comboed off earlier easier then the archdruid version i had been playing. sorry i dont have a million goldfish games data written down, i was just giving an quick rundown on my experiences playing the deck and what i liked about it and what i didnt like about the other versions i had been playing, no amount of ur data can rly change how i felt and my experiences with the 8 lord version or anything else

[bakofried]

I don't think you get it. You said "My list was faster" to which we replied "not only is it not faster, but it's also inconsistent." There's the argument right there, if you want commentary on your list we would, in all likelihood, point you to k2thej's, IBA's, or catmint's list.

Here's a snippet: We don't really care how someone "feels" about a list. You had a good day, cool. Glad you had it, and congrats. But the thing is, you did well in spite of a suboptimal list, rather than because of one. That's basically the point.

[gypsy]

ok fine but to me all the data in the world wont mean anything if i dont like how my deck feels because thats the most important thing to me when playing any deck, sure your data shows more consistency but that hasnt been true in my experiences so im not playing those lists

[Atikin]

ok fine but to me all the data in the world wont mean anything if i dont like how my deck feels because thats the most important thing to me when playing any deck, sure your data shows more consistency but that hasnt been true in my experiences so im not playing those lists

You trollin?

[gypsy]

i troll but am not in this thread :P, just a difference of how I think when building decks for myself, and difference of opinions that we arent gonna solve by ramming our heads at each other

[Atikin]

The feel of the deck is what deck you choose, not what card choices you make. So you play card x instead of card y not because of how good they are but because of how they feel? I think casual is the format for you!

[gypsy]

if i dont like how a card plays out in my deck it doesnt matter how good it is if another card is performing better overall. sure you may like archdruid, but when I played it it didnt perform as well as i would have liked so i changed it and its working better now

[Atikin]

if i dont like how a card plays out in my deck it doesnt matter how good it is if another card is performing better overall. sure you may like archdruid, but when I played it it didnt perform as well as i would have liked so i changed it and its working better now

What are you basing performance on? One 4 round tourney?

[gypsy]

no just all the testing ive done with the deck, sure i dont have thousands of games like you guys do but others peoples data dont really affect any card choices i make

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

no just all the testing ive done with the deck, sure i dont have thousands of games like you guys do but others peoples data dont really affect any card choices i make

The point of this forum is to share results and come to a decision about the general best practices in a deck, or at least meta-dependent ones. If you're not interested in optimization, with all due respect, you probably shouldn't be posting in the competitive forums.

[Atikin]

no just all the testing ive done with the deck, sure i dont have thousands of games like you guys do but others peoples data dont really affect any card choices i make

Why the hell discuss the deck if our discussions make no effect on anything?

[gypsy]

well i have gotten ideas from this forum the past month and tried out ideas and posted what i came to from my testing and just results from the most recent tournament i played, i value any discussion about the deck, ive just tried the cards you guys claim to be optimal and to me they are not how i want to build my deck because i dont think that any single version is optimal and it just comes down to personal preferences

[gypsy]

if u dont want me to post anything anymore then i wont and just gather ideas from the shadows :D

[Darklingske]

I got some testing done yesterday against merfolk post NPH. And I can say that the MU just got way worse. The list I was playing against was the 12 lord version. Almost each game I've got my turn 1 drop countered either by MM or FoW and usually my turn two drop was also countered by MM if it was a 1-drop or by Daze if it was a 2-drop. Of the 10 games we played pre-board I only won 3. Post board hasn't been tested yet, but the testings will continue next week.
Against CB with MM the games were longer, but in our favour. They slowed me down, but the usual kills they run are mostly too slow and gave me enough time to continue and kill them. Post board the lords were really fantastic! Pre-board: 70- 30, Post board: 60-40
Oh, BTW, I'm playing the 8-priest list.

[catmint]

Which 12 Lords? Can you post your list?

From my testing Mental Misstep does hurt a lot. Glimpse is not the important thing because we want to cast reagl force anyway, but a skilled player uses missetp to counter manaelf, quirion, wirewood or heritage and therefore disturbs our ability to build up.

Need more testing of course, but an adaption could be to focus on a more aggro based list with GSZ like IBA's.

[Koby]

Going forward I am playing the manalord/GSZ version. It's too much liability to rely on 1-drops that will inevitably get misstepped. Besides, turn 1 Priest (off ESG) is always good times :D

[k2thej]

Though I do really prefer shusher, do you think MM might make it advantageous to run leyline?

[Koby]

Though I do really prefer shusher, do you think MM might make it advantageous to run leyline?

Not anymore than it does now. I foresee Glimpse being much tougher to resolve with MM. Shusher helps in that regard, while Leyline does not. The biggest problem I've faced against CBtop decks wasn't entirely the Counterbalance - it was the sweepers they cast afterwards. Leyline of Lifeforce and Shusher don't help with this regard equally.

However, playing with Shusher allows you to keep Glimpse in, therefore maintaining the option of comboing off. This minimizes the chance that you will get blown out by mass removal. The Leyline plan has no mitigation to spells getting countered, and must rely on multiple lords in your hand being cast. This is where Shusher becomes more relevant - in maintaining the original plan for Combo.

[NihilObstat]

I saw a list on TC Decks that run both Titania's and Archdruids, and I started testing it, added Living Wishes, and it's working greatly.
I specially think this might be good after Misstep, being Titania CMC2+mana lord, having to go for the Regal Force win more frequently.
I placed 4x Titania's + 3 ESG in the spots of Fyndhorn elves and singletons, currently running only Regal as a singleton.

The list is logically slower than the older lists, but a lot more consistant and stable. The problem is that the decks to which I usually lose are deck that screw me up in the first 2 turns (Monoblack, ANT, Counterbalance, etc, etc). Against these decks the loss of speed looks terrible, but I need further testing to tell.

I don't have enough time to read the thread, I'm sorry if you're already devating it, but what do you guys think? It's working real good for me.

The originals would be something like this, adding Living Wish and a Wish sideboard:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5892&iddeck=42716 4th out of 210
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5958&iddeck=43202 5th out of 125

[Koby]

Do you have the link to the deck on TC? It may be a list we've already discussed and just got lost in the intense discussion that ensued.

[Darklingske]

Which 12 Lords? Can you post your list?

From my testing Mental Misstep does hurt a lot. Glimpse is not the important thing because we want to cast reagl force anyway, but a skilled player uses missetp to counter manaelf, quirion, wirewood or heritage and therefore disturbs our ability to build up.

Need more testing of course, but an adaption could be to focus on a more aggro based list with GSZ like IBA's.

The 12 lords he played were: 4 LoA, 4 Rejeerey, 2 Coralhelm & 2 Sovereign. My list is the same as IBA's list, playing 4 Priest, 4 Archdruid & 2 ESG.
I'm playing a more aggro oriented list, but against Merfolk it is really horrible. They are blistering fast AND disrupt you.

[danyul]

Just a quick question (I hope).

How do we feel about Mental Misstep? Would we ever run those?

[Darklingske]

Maybe in SB, but not MD. Testing wil have to point out if it's worth the SB sppot.

[k2thej]

There is no reason to run MM in elves. Run another one drop spell. Play it before what don't you want countered. It either eats the MM, or gets in, and it's also not a dead card if they don't play MM. theres no reason to run it.

[fdiv_bug]

There is no reason to run MM in elves. Run another one drop spell. Play it before what don't you want countered. It either eats the MM, or gets in, and it's also not a dead card if they don't play MM. theres no reason to run it.

I couldn't agree more. Mental Misstep doesn't fit with this deck's game plan at all.

[Koby]

MM may help our poor matchup: Storm. Aside from that, it's not useful. Silence/Chant may be better in that matchup, as well as other matchups too - like High Tide. This is a very narrow application for these matchups, and should probably be left out entirely. If combo is ubiquitous in the metagame, then Combo Elves is not the right call either.

[Mr. Safety]

Not trying to derail any discussions happening, but I gave up on Genesis Wave. I was 99% sure it wasn't smart, and now I'm 100% sure.

Question: does anyone use Caller of the Claw, especially the wishboard variants?

[k2thej]

Not trying to derail any discussions happening, but I gave up on Genesis Wave. I was 99% sure it wasn't smart, and now I'm 100% sure.

Question: does anyone use Caller of the Claw, especially the wishboard variants?

Claw works well at instant speed, so unless you pre-emptively wish for him and have him ready he's not really that great. My conclusion with anti-sweeper cards is that there really aren't any that are very good yet, so until something useful is printed, it's better to just use the slots to answer threats that have answers that work. Claw, Fecundidty, Escort and the like have never proved to be worth it for me. Fecundity came the closest, but even then you need to waste a lot of board spots for minimal payoff. I say just play around it until something good gets printed, the spots are better used for other things.

[catmint]

I agree K2, that all the options versus sweepers are not really good. I am trying a wish-board with burrenton and escort. It does not waste a lot of spots and you still have decent access with living wish. It is tough though, because you need to anticipate the removal and play it precautiously.

K2, you often talked about "playing around it" and there are surely many situations where your level of skill, creativity and anticipation helps you to be more sucessful versus hate cards. However, the option to play around sweepers are really narrow from my experience:

vs. EE there is not a lot you can do except for giving him enough "food" to blow it up but keeping as much as possible to recover.

vs. Firespout, Pyroclasm and Perish there are also not many options:
1) you can drop as little as possible hoping he does not sweep and go off (only if you have the cards and there is no countermagic).

2) if you don't have the cards for option 1 you can either do nothing and hope to draw (probably not the best idea) or go aggro and get sweeped.
If you go aggro the only thing you can do is to keep 1-2 elves back to recover faster.

Or how do you play around it?

[Mr. Safety]

I play around it by using a Grapeshot win/con. That's really the only reason I use Grapeshot over Emmy/Living Wish...you can combo out the same turn you play your elves. The challenge is that your leaning on Glimpse even HARDER than in the Emmy version (which can use manalords to just DUMP the dude onto the table by turn 3)

My curiosity about Caller of the Claw was centered around one specitfic use I would have for it: play a singleton in the board to side in g2. Post-Glimpse, it would be nice to have an option to offset Explosives/Firespout. You may lose 7-8 elves, but then you gain 7-8 2/2 bears. I'm not sure how prevalent Echoing Truth is in the format (I've seen merfolk use it a few times) but that would be sad if you got your beaters after getting wiped...only to get wiped again by a 25-cent common.

[k2thej]

@catmint- Ya, there are absolutely situations where you just cannot play around it. If you play smart enough though, I feel like these situations are not frequently enough to warrant a less than optimal answer in the board. I do like escort a lot better than claw though, since he is easier to set up pre-emptively.

@Mr. Safety- How is the storm kill easier to combo out the same turn?

[Mr. Safety]

Oh, I wasn't saying it was easier...I would suggest that it's probably even harder, actually. I just meant that wipers are a little less scary when you know you HAVE to win the same turn you Glimpse. They can pop off Explosives but I can respond by getting as much mana out of my elves before they die and getting Glimpse rolling again (hopefully!) I didn't mean to imply it was easier, I just meant that I use Grapeshot to minimize wiper effects. I don't have to worry about Firespout when the elves are really just adding mana/storm count so I can win before they can cast it.

Would you suggest Dauntless Escort instead of Caller of the Claw? I have both available to me...

[k2thej]

Oh, I wasn't saying it was easier...I would suggest that it's probably even harder, actually. I just meant that wipers are a little less scary when you know you HAVE to win the same turn you Glimpse. They can pop off Explosives but I can respond by getting as much mana out of my elves before they die and getting Glimpse rolling again (hopefully!) I didn't mean to imply it was easier, I just meant that I use Grapeshot to minimize wiper effects. I don't have to worry about Firespout when the elves are really just adding mana/storm count so I can win before they can cast it.

Would you suggest Dauntless Escort instead of Caller of the Claw? I have both available to me...

Ya I mean you build mana as you cast the elves anyway. I think that you can use the same approach to play around sweepers with Emrakul as the win, I usually play similar to that. float a bunch of stuff, let em die, keep going.

[catmint]

I play around it by using a Grapeshot win/con. That's really the only reason I use Grapeshot over Emmy/Living Wish...you can combo out the same turn you play your elves. The challenge is that your leaning on Glimpse even HARDER than in the Emmy version (which can use manalords to just DUMP the dude onto the table by turn 3)

I don't get it. If you cast emrakul sweepers do not matter (because of extra turn and stuff...), so you also win "the same turn".

[Mr. Safety]

No, you're right. I thought there was a difference in the 2 approaches...but there really isn't, not funcionally. The Grapeshot win needs Glimpse a lot more though...I've read several posts here where folks have powered out a Regal Force via Living Wish with a mana-lord and drawn into Emrakul without Glimpse. I think (with my little brain) that the Emmy/wish builds don't need to rely on Glimpse as much as the storm setup does.

Then again, I AM retarded...lol.

[NihilObstat]

It does not, Living lists basically have 4 more accelerants or Win-cons, and do not rely on Glimpse at all really. It certainly is easier to win when you see Glimpse, but it's not as necessary. Living wish tutors for Regal Force many, many times. Also, playing 4 Elvish Archdruid gives yet another fast aggro win-con.

The Grapeshot + Cloudstone curio list on the other hand combos with just those 2 cards, via infinite spells.

[catmint]

I just finished 5th (3-1) in my local 25 player tourney with following list:


Creatures
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Priest of Titania
2 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Arbor Elf
1 Viridian Zealot

Instants
4 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish

Lands
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah



SB

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Heritage Druid
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Orim's Chant
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender


Round 1 vs. 14 y old victim with bad elf-combo/aggro 2:0

Round 2 vs. UR Stiflenought 0:2
G1: He wins dice, Mulligans and keeps 1 Land hand with Grim Lavamancer and Brainstorm. He finds his 2nd Land turn 2 and had Spell Snare for my Priest. I play archdruid next turn with glimpse, nettle and heritage in hand, but he casts Vendilion Clique for my glimpse... Lavamancer and Fire-Ice for the win.
G2: I keep a hand with 3 lands, 2 priest, 1 Fyndhorn, 1 Wish, 1 Pact. No turn 1 play for me and more tempo loss because he spell snared my titania again. The second titania is taken from me with Mind Harness , which pays easily for the upkeep and in the first turn even game him boost for his Vendilion Clique . When he plays it he let’s me keep my living wish and my pact. He spell snares the wish. I draw Regal force and decide to pact for archdruid with 3 forest, 1 Savannah, 2 Mana-elf on the board. He then made an amazing play: Wasteland my Savannah Submerge my archdruid and Fire Ice my 2 mana-elfs. I knew he had the plan to kill me with pact, because he did not take it. Had no choice though…

Btw: Submerge is next to stifle and wasteland another reason to play monogreen, because of courseSubmerge in response to fetchland is a free spot removal for Merfolk and blue.

Round 3 vs. Affinity-Stompy hybrid 2:0
G1: I win the dice, but have a slow hand, so I play turn 2 wish for Kataki, War's Wage , which made the turn 5 win really easy.

G2: He has to mulligan to 4, but starts with powder keg. I have a mediocre hand. Turn 1: Nettle, Turn 2 Wish for Wirewood, Turn 3: archdruid, Turn 4: 2 glimpse and draw into Gleeful Sabotage,

Round 4 vs. Merfolk
G1: He daze’s once but no FoW so I win Turn 4
G2: He plays with black and sides in 4 Perish, + 2 Umezawa's Jitte ,. He dazes my Turn 2 archdruid and gets jitte active Turn 3 for the win.
G3: He slows me down Forcing my Archdruid but does not draw Perish or Jitte, so I win.

Conclusion: I am happy with the result and the deck worked very well.
14 Forest was a very good Manabase and I did not suffer from too many “no land” mulligan like last time. I did not miss cradle. I had it in the sideboard when I tested, but never wished for it, so I cut it.
Also interesting: I met someone who plays regularly there with combo elves. His list has 4 priest , 0 archdruid, but 4 Natural Order as alternative wincon. He claims that his combo is not much weaker (I will goldfish soon ) and that a Progenitus win's but Archdruid does not. What I liked is the sideboard option Terastodon and Empyrial Archangel to help versus difficult matchups. He finished 3rd, but told me he won already and is regularly in the Top 4. I hope that I can convince him to join the forum, so he can discuss and share his experiences.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Congrats on the finish. Question: I count one game lost to Pact; did you keep track of games where GSZ over Pact would have significantly hurt you for comparison?

[k2thej]

Congrats on the finish. Question: I count one game lost to Pact; did you keep track of games where GSZ over Pact would have significantly hurt you for comparison?

That was an absolutely absurd pact kill haha. Lists with basics would not have been hit with it though. The problem with the pact/gsz argument is that the instances where someone dies to pact are very obvious, but it is much harder to point out each specific time where pact would have been better than gsz if you are looking for specific examples. It has to be a theory argument because there are too different cases to look at to ever count them all.

[catmint]

Congrats on the finish. Question: I count one game lost to Pact; did you keep track of games where GSZ over Pact would have significantly hurt you for comparison?

Yes, Round 3 Game two with the active powder keg. It was very tight and I had 2 pact and was very light with cards. The glimpse would have been uselesse with 2 GSZ. I would have played 1 GSZ for Visionary and combo of next turn. He would have the chance to draw one of his many outs like chalice or perish.

Round 4 vs. MerfolkGame 3 was also very tight and I had at least 1 pact. with gsz I could have tried to combo off, but not sure if the missed card draw would hurt. He had 6 outs with Perish and Jitte.

I agree with K2, the times you loose to pact are "hard facts" but seldom. The times pact is better than GSZ are more common, but not that clear, because it is most of the time hard to say if I would have been able to get there with GSZ instead of pact.

Just for the protocol: in the game vs. stiflenought GSZ would not have made a difference. I GSZ for archdruid. He submerges archdruid, fire-ices my 2 elves and I still loose the race to his 3/1 flyer...His disruption in both games was very good and he is also a good player who always talkes about qualifying for the pro tour or something... :)

[Atikin]

How was the symbiote and heritage in board?


Yes, Round 3 Game two with the active powder keg. It was very tight and I had 2 pact and was very light with cards. The glimpse would have been uselesse with 2 GSZ. I would have played 1 GSZ for Visionary and combo of next turn. He would have the chance to draw one of his many outs like chalice or perish.

Round 4 vs. MerfolkGame 3 was also very tight and I had at least 1 pact. with gsz I could have tried to combo off, but not sure if the missed card draw would hurt. He had 6 outs with Perish and Jitte.

I agree with K2, the times you loose to pact are "hard facts" but seldom. The times pact is better than GSZ are more common, but not that clear, because it is most of the time hard to say if I would have been able to get there with GSZ instead of pact.

Just for the protocol: in the game vs. stiflenought GSZ would not have made a difference. I GSZ for archdruid. He submerges archdruid, fire-ices my 2 elves and I still loose the race to his 3/1 flyer...His disruption in both games was very good and he is also a good player who always talkes about qualifying for the pro tour or something... :)

[catmint]

Symbiote and Heritage are the most important cards when glimpsing, so I wanted to make sure I have access to them with Living Wish. Yesterday I only wished once for a symbiote in the game with the Ratchet Bomb. From my testing I can say that it plays very well. Running 4 Wish you need to make sure you can not only wish for emrakul or utility if needed, but also for cards that support your primary goal...

[danyul]

Just a quick tourney report for one of the smaller, weekly tourneys we have around here. I've been playing this deck off and on for a year or so. I just recently started running something close to IBA's list and I like it alot.

I don't often write these things and I didn't take notes so I apologize if it's a bit sloppy. I went 3-1.

4 rounds of swiss. No T8 cut.

R1. Elf Aggro. 2-0

I get paired against a player new to the tournament scene. He was playing the kitchen table version of elves. I win the match quickly but spend the rest of the round explaining Legacy to him and trying to show him the best way to improve his deck without spending too much money. His buddy comes over with a kitchen table version of Goblins and I help him out too. I talk to the shop owner and she tosses him some commons I picked out for him. Freebies. Very nice. And nice guys. I hope they don’t get discouraged by all these blue dual-wielding dudes.

R2. Show and Tell/Sneak Attack. 2-0

G1. I win the roll. I have no idea what he’s about to do. I go Forest, mana Elf, pass. He starts with Mox Diamond into Lotus Petal into Burning Wish and I get a little sad because I assume he’s on some kind of Tendrils combo. When he goes for Show and Tell then makes his land drop I sigh in relief. Just a little. Because I don’t think the combo deck he’s running is any nicer than Tendrils. But I might have a chance.

My turn 2 is a Priest of Titania, swing with Llanowar Elf because I had no one drop. He Show and Tells into an Emrakul and I drop a Regal Force. I’m not sure if that was the correct play. I had another Llanowar Elf in hand. But it happened. Move on. My turn. I see his foily Emrakul sitting in front of me and I start to get nervous. So this is what it feels like. I’ve never seen this guy at the shop before. What if he thinks I’m slowplaying when really, I’m terrible and have to triple count my mana to make sure I don’t fuck up? I start to play out my dudes. I don’t remember exactly what the sequence of spells was but I really wanted to win that turn. I start going off but I can only make 14 mana. I fizzle with about a dozen or so elves on the board. If I had just one more Wirewood Symbiote in the maindeck to tutor up I could have won right there. He swings with his fatty and I sac six elves. I have a GSZ in hand. This can still work. On my turn I double and triple count the mana and damage. I GSZ out an Archdruid and swing for exactly 16 (lethal!) damage, stealing the game. Turns out that turn two Llanowar poke was relevant damage. I had to take a breather after that game. That was more nerve-wracking than approaching a female. I remember now. This is why I play Magic. Not for the close, skill-testing games but because I need a reason to stay inside and avoid women. Thanks, Wizards.

G2. He starts with a fetch, go. I make a mana dude, go. He Burning Wishes for a Perish and I get a little sad. I have to be extra tricky now. On my turn I have the option of doing some fancy stuff with Quirion Ranger and Heritage druid, but instead I just drop another Llanowar. I wouldn’t call it slowrolling. I was just trying to set myself up for a future turn without setting off his mental alarm to pop the Perish. On his turn he Burning Wishes again for a Firespout. Ok. A bit of overkill, but message received. On my turn I make my attempt to go off, but because I didn’t play out all the dudes I could on turn two, it became a bit sluggish in the middle. I have to count and recount my mana but thanks to a single ESG I’m able to make exactly 17 mana for the win. I’m just lucky he didn’t have any counters for my Living Wish. He tells me later that if he had untapped, he would have made Sneak Attack into a Progenitus and Emrakul.

R3. Team America, something something. 1-2

G1. One of the regulars. I know he always plays the same deck. He knows I always play the same deck. I’m not optimistic since he runs EEs and Deeds and E.Plagues out of the board. Usually we meet in the finals and split so we can both go home early. Just my luck I got him round three. But whatevs. He’s a cool guy.

I win the roll and start with a very risky hand. I know he plays slow, mean things so I want to get started as fast as I can. Also, I’ve been on a winning streak lately so I felt a bit cocky. I had no one drops so I lead with Forest, ESG, Priest of Titania, go. No Force from him. He goes fetch, go. On my turn I drop an Elvish Visionary. In response he goes fetch, Brainstorm, Daze which is fine by me. He just Wastelanded himself to end my turn. So I pay with Priest and end. He makes a land, go. I think I played some stuff into an Archdruid. He makes a Goyf. I make an Emrakul.

G2. I don’t remember the specific turn by turn plays here. I just remember this game lasting forever. I build up a few dudes and a Priest of Titania to stall his Goyf. He plays an Engineered Plague to reset me. I find an Archdruid and build up some more dudes. He makes a Pernicious Deed. He gets some Goyf beats in and resets me again by blowing Deed at CMC1 after I play a Quirion Ranger. I try to Living Wish into something useful. He has a Force. I try to GSZ. Force. I build up a few things. He plays and blows a Deed at CMC2 and then drops a Tombstalker to fly over my lonely Archdruid. So I lost that one. But not for lack of trying.

G3. I get a decent hand. His was better. He plays 2 Smother, 1 or 2 Go for the Throat, a Diabolic Edict, and a Deed to nullify all my mana lords and even my Elvish Champion when I try to go beatdown. Then he flies over with a Tombstalker. What can you do?

R4. The Gate, kinda. With some red stuff. 2-0

G1. Very nice guy. I had actually talked about the different Elf builds with him at the last tourney so he knew everything my deck could do which is fine.

I win the roll again. Because I’m super lucky or something. I make a mana dude, go. He makes a land, go. Turn two I do tricks with Quirion Ranger and Heritage druid and end up with an Archdruid and like five elves. He winces when he sees the Archdruid. He casts Hymn to Tourach on his turn two. I make an Emrakul on my turn three.

G2. He has to mull to six. I get an Archdruid out on turn two again and it’s met with another curious wince. He Hymns again. I win on turn three.

We play three or four more games post SB just for kicks after that. In each game he completely shuts me down. It turns out he winced at my Archdruids because they landed a turn before he was able to land his Engineered Plagues. In our extra games he was tossing out Thoughtseizes and Hymns and Sinkholes and Dark Rituals into Engineered Plagues. I had no chance. If only his deck had decided to work in the tournament rounds, he would have swept me easily. But he’s gracious in defeat and I head home with a couple staples for other decks.

I hope that wasn't too wordy.

[Darklingske]

Nice report! And yes, sometimes you just have to be lucky and dodge the hate (see R4) :)