Miracle Control

[CutthroatCasual]

How long have you been playing Miracles? Because FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep. If even ONE of those lands was an Island (any kind), that hand is keepable. But as it is, it's garbage, even with the Top, which puts you down a turn because you'll be spinning on upkeep to find a blue source.

[iatee]

As a D+T player, I'd give a Miracles player that hand any day. You're playing a Wasteland target on your second turn and have a bunch of dead cards in hand. If there's not a fetch in your top 3, you most likely just lose. It might beat a hand totally dependent on a Vial + Thalia, but there's no way you should go all in on that. Especially in the scry-rule era where mulligans are far less punished.

[Stefanogs]

How long have you been playing Miracles? Because FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep. If even ONE of those lands was an Island (any kind), that hand is keepable. But as it is, it's garbage, even with the Top, which puts you down a turn because you'll be spinning on upkeep to find a blue source.

Hey, i'll ask you to please pay attention only to the thread and dont use argument from autorithy ("how long do you play..") to support your position. Believe it or not, but most of those present in this topic (including me), have been playing this deck for years. The question is so doubtful that both PVDDR (a very good miracles player) and Saporito chose to stay with his hand, but i did not used it as an argument. For the discussion, BBD would mulligan: "A deck with Ponder, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top is good at mulliganing, and this hand is really bad. You'd have to find a blue source and a brainstorm to make this hand do anything. One Force of Will by itself isn't enough. I normally keep any hand with top, but this hand is just too bad for me, and the beautiful thing is tjat Top can also just be in your 6 card hand! Also, don't play non-basic plains in your deck. This hand is a perfect example of why almost every land should produce blue mana".

I agree with you that "FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep", but that it not the single reason to keep this hand on play against a unknown opponent and meta.

[Entreat_the_Beedrills]

'Keep or mull' article on Channel Fireball. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/keep-or-mulligan-with-guest-thiago-saporito/

http://i.imgur.com/bcZXbjH.jpg

The deck runs plenty of filters and cantrips which should help when mulliganing. The best value would be to stick Counterbalance into play without having to force it away, which probably isn't an option until turn 4 or turn 3 at the best. Force of will on turn one is good, but where do you go from there? Either way, the path to closing out the game is far off without blue mana and keeping this just doesn't make sense to me.

[twndomn]

Hey, i'll ask you to please pay attention only to the thread and dont use argument from autorithy ("how long do you play..") to support your position. Believe it or not, but most of those present in this topic (including me), have been playing this deck for years. The question is so doubtful that both PVDDR (a very good miracles player) and Saporito chose to stay with his hand, but i did not used it as an argument.

I agree with you that "FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep", but that it not the single reason to keep this hand on play against a unknown opponent and meta.

First of all, if you look at the comment section of CFB site, BBD has already said Mulligan.

Second, I am not certain about the assessment of PVDDR (a very good miracles player). PVDDR is a great PT-level magic player, but there are many experts, who are not on PT, has a lot more experience and enjoy some degree of achievement in Miracles, arguably more so than PV.

If you want to go by credential, I would go by Reid Duke, BBD, Schönegger, and Lossett over PV. I would question why should Legacy Miracles players care about PV so much. Saporito who?

[Stefanogs]

First of all, if you look at the comment section of CFB site, BBD has already said Mulligan.

Second, I am not certain about the assessment of PVDDR (a very good miracles player). PVDDR is a great PT-level magic player, but there are many experts, who are not on PT, has a lot more experience and enjoy some degree of achievement in Miracles, arguably more so than PV.

If you want to go by credential, I would go by Reid Duke, BBD, Schönegger, and Lossett over PV. I would question why should Legacy Miracles players care about PV so much. Saporito who?

1. As I said, i did not want to use credentials to justify if i would or not keep this hand, but only exemplified that some people with experience would keep it (while others do not - like BBD).

2. Just clarifying (for the love of nationality...), PV may not be playing the SCG or Bazaar, but legacy is his favorite constructed format and he even did top 8 on GP Paris 2014 with Miracles.

[Cipher]

I think that's a greedy keep. It's fine against Delver, since you have plenty of time to hit a blue land, and all of your Swords and Terminus are live draws. It's beyond terrible against combo, though. You need to hit double blue for Counterbalance, and the miracles in hand truly are dead. If you have to pitch Counterbalance, it just gets worse.

As I see it, if Legacy is 60% midrange/creature decks, and 40% combo, that hand is 60% to be just barely keepable, and 40% to be unplayable. A mulligan with a free scry seems much better.

[klaus]

Mull fo'sho.
Terminus is dead, EtA is dead, CB is dead other than being a pitch card, thus FoW'ing or not FoW'ing both makes it a virtual 4-card hand. Plus you have no interaction beyond FoW until the end of the early game.

Another aspect that wasn't mentioned yet: :u: + BS isn't enough, since you need to be able to cast BS AND shuffle EtA + Terminus away, meaning you need to find :u: AND a fetch.
So yeah, *insert "nope meme".

[KZhang]

I would mull this hand too. but this case feels a little too extreme. Lets make it a little more interesting.

1) What if the Karakas was a Tundra?
2) What if the Karakas was an Island?
3) What if the Karakas was an Arid Mesa?

Would any of this circumstance change your decisions on mulling?

[sdematt]

If an apple were an orange, would that change things?

[CutthroatCasual]

This is what usually goes through my head when making mull decisions:

For 7 cards
2 lands (at least 1 has to be a fetch) + Top + any 4 as long as no more than one is a Miracle = keep
3 lands (they don't have to be fetches) + Top and/or Ponder/Brainstorm (Ponder preferred if the other 3 are usable on their own i.e. Snap/Jace/CB/FoW/STP/CJ/other cantrips, Brainstorm preferred if at least one is a Miracle card) + any 3 = keep
4+ lands + Top and/or any cantrip + 0≤x≤3 other cards, Miracles included = most likely keeping

I try not to keep any 7 that doesn't meet that criteria. 4+ lands without a Top or cantrip is just asking for trouble, even if one of them is a CB or FoW or other counterspell.

TBH, I don't feel like our decks mull very well, despite our load of card selection, since we're always playing from behind until we can Terminus or counter a key spell. So to go down cards means less resources to be able to turn the tables.

For 6 cards
2 lands (at least 1 has to be a fetch) + Top and/or cantrip + any 3 = keep
3 lands + any 3 as long as no more than 1 is a Miracle card = keep

For 5 cards
Try not to go to 5, but sometimes it needs to be done.
A perfect 5 is 3 lands, and any two of the following, dupes OK: STP, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top

In the event that you don't get a perfect 5, 2 lands + Top or cantrip is snap keep because your 4 isn't going to get any better.

DISCLAIMER: This is not an exact science.

[Whitefaces]

Mm, convincing arguments for sure, thanks for your thoughts everyone. Good to have some discussion going in this thread too!


DISCLAIMER: This is not an exact science.

lol, no shit :tongue:

[CutthroatCasual]

Yup! Mulligans in our decks are rough IMO so being able to judge what's a fringe keepable hand from a snap mull is crucial.

[Stefanogs]

How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).

http://i.imgur.com/idYeVuF.jpg

Keep or Mulligan?

[Whitefaces]

Yup! Mulligans in our decks are rough IMO so being able to judge what's a fringe keepable hand from a snap mull is crucial.

Definitely. I'm still not entirely convinced it's a mull yet, I'm going to try and run this hand through a small gauntlet vs other DtB if I can convince a friend next playtest session.

On another note I went 3-1 at my LGS last night, the first match loss in over a month. The deck is feeling incredibly powerful and streamlined. I was almost set on BUG Delver for GP Prague, but now having second thoughts having played this the last month or so.

Beat a Grixis Delver/Doomsday weird hybrid (Predicted him after DD so he couldn't combo :tongue: ) 2-0

DnT 2-0

BG 'fuckmiracles.dec' with Bob, Lili, Hymn, Bitterblossom, Decays etc. Would have been crushed without Wear//Tear and Mentor as the win con allowing me to go wide very fast. 2-0

Lost to Reanimator 2-0. I think I kept sketchy hands here, but G1 got crushed by double Daze on the play nabbing my FoW for a T2 Griselbrand. G2 was almost under control until a timely Massacre appeared, just after I Cliqued!

I'm beyond convinced on a MD Wear//Tear and I urge everyone else to try it.

List is almost identical to the one I've posted a couple of times, changes since last time are:

MD
+1 Predict - In love with this card!
+1 Spell Pierce - flex slot currently, it could be anything.
-2 Spell Snare - Wasn't too convinced with these last time.

SB
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Flusterstorm - 15th card, it could be a 3rd Sugrical as the lands matchup is pretty bad without Jace.
-2 Blood Moon - Minniehajj has convinced me on these.

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

4 Ponder
4 Terminus

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 Counterspell
1 Wear//Tear
1 Spell Pierce

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains

SB:
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Cavern of Souls


How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).

Keep or Mulligan?

I think this is a much, much easier mulligan than the one before, despite being on the draw. No FoW, no SDT...and you can't cast anything. You're completely at the mercy of the top of your deck.

[exallium]

How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).

http://i.imgur.com/idYeVuF.jpg

Keep or Mulligan?

Gone. Disgusting hand =P

[Minniehajj]

How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).

http://i.imgur.com/idYeVuF.jpg

Keep or Mulligan?

Very definitely a Mulligan, there's no playable cards AND no cantrips.



Words....

Glad my reasoning got to someone! =P. How has the low land count and cavern performed for you? I've considered playing the one maindeck W//T in the past, but I can't justify a card to cut, nor have I really been wanting of that effect in my main deck.

[Whitefaces]

Glad my reasoning got to someone! =P. How has the low land count and cavern performed for you? I've considered playing the one maindeck W//T in the past, but I can't justify a card to cut, nor have I really been wanting of that effect in my main deck.

The low land count has been fine so far, even in the face of mana denial strategies. When I first put this together I was sure 19 lands was too greedy, but when it's come to the games it's not been a problem. I think this is because the build requires fewer lands to function at full force. I'm thinking of going down to 3 Islands to make room for a 10th fetch, think it makes sense here. There's no Jace or Entreat to need lands drops after 4 or 5, I tend to win games with about 5 lands in play. This just makes the cantrips and SDT that much more powerful as you have more gas to draw.

The Cavern was MD before, but I found myself needing a third Tundra often, that was too greedy! Though I think the Cavern warrants a SB slot as it's so good in the mirror.

This build is very weak to CotV, a lot more so than everyone elses. It's a pretty big concern and the MD Wear//Tear is a concession to that. Our 'answer' to artifacts and enchantments G1 is usually FoW and Counterspell, but having access to Wear//Tear plays into the Mentor plan nicely as you can use countermagic incredibly aggressively to protect it.

[Jaytron]

I'm somebody who doesn't play Miracles, but I want to proxy it up to practice against/with it in my playgroup. (Everybody seems to want more practice vs Miracles).

Is this list: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-a-new-miracle The best place to start with for a 'stock' list?

I've also been looking around this thread and eyeing the non-mentors lists with 2 Entreats/4 Termius. Would this be a better starting point for a test-against list?

Legends Miracles seems to be the least popular, so I don't think I should bother with that version of the deck.

[ozimek]

'Keep or mull' article on Channel Fireball. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/keep-or-mulligan-with-guest-thiago-saporito/

http://i.imgur.com/bcZXbjH.jpg

My initial instinct would probably be to keep, but then I tend to be rather greedy in mulligan decisions. Mostly out of fear of what my 6 might look like.

When evaluating an initial hand take these risks into consideration:

Probability of a 6 card hand containing at least one miracle (assuming 6 miracles in deck): 48%
Probability of a 6 card hand containing at least one crap card (assuming 6 miracles + 2 Jaces): 59%
Probability of a 6 card hand containing at least two crap cards (assuming 6 miracles + 2 Jaces): 18%

As a rule of thumb, think of a potential 6 card hand as a 5½ card hand, which ,in a vacuum, is better than the known 5 card hand. Furthermore the 5 known cards aren't great. This suggest a mulligan as the best option.


More risks to take into account:

Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands): 31% [including scry (sample size =7): 22%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 blue lands (assuming 18 blue lands/fetches): 10% [including scry: 7%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 cantrips (assuming 4top+4BS+2Ponder): 32% [including scry: 26%]

Of course those probabilities can't just be summarized, but ideally they all need to be "avoided". The probability of a hand with 0 or 1 land is pretty scary. Especially combined with the chance to get a cantrip. Remember that hitting a cantrip becomes more likely the fewer lands you have. I may have to revise my mulligan decision process.. :rolleyes:

Used this calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

[Whitefaces]

I'm somebody who doesn't play Miracles, but I want to proxy it up to practice against/with it in my playgroup. (Everybody seems to want more practice vs Miracles).

Is this list: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-a-new-miracle The best place to start with for a 'stock' list?

I've also been looking around this thread and eyeing the non-mentors lists with 2 Entreats/4 Termius. Would this be a better starting point for a test-against list?

Legends Miracles seems to be the least popular, so I don't think I should bother with that version of the deck.

Exactly how I started playing the deck again :) I became the designated 'miracles player' for our test group and ended up enjoying it quite a lot.

Something like this may be a good place to start as something pretty 'stock'.

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

SBs vary quite a lot, but usually they'll have something like

2 Surgical/RiP
3 REB effects
2 Wear//Tear
0-2 Staticaster
x Canonist, Containment Priest, Meddling Mage
0-2 Blood Moon
0-2 Mentor

[Jaytron]

Exactly how I started playing the deck again :) I became the designated 'miracles player' for our test group and ended up enjoying it quite a lot.

Something like this may be a good place to start as something pretty 'stock'.

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

SBs vary quite a lot, but usually they'll have something like

2 Surgical/RiP
3 REB effects
2 Wear//Tear
0-2 Staticaster
x Canonist, Containment Priest, Meddling Mage
0-2 Blood Moon
0-2 Mentor

Thanks for the list!

So you're telling me I'm walking a dangerous edge here. I could fall over to the dark side (become the guy playing miracles).

I have almost everything in paper, outside of the Tundras which are cheap-ish. :X

EDIT: I can probably fit 3 decks on 1.. I'll probably take this list, one with mentors main, and maybe something else? I guess I can squeeze legends in there?

[twndomn]

More risks to take into account:

Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands): 31% [including scry (sample size =7): 22%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 blue lands (assuming 18 blue lands/fetches): 10% [including scry: 7%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 cantrips (assuming 4top+4BS+2Ponder): 32% [including scry: 26%]

Of course those probabilities can't just be summarized, but ideally they all need to be "avoided". The probability of a hand with 0 or 1 land is pretty scary. Especially combined with the chance to get a cantrip. Remember that hitting a cantrip becomes more likely the fewer lands you have. I may have to revise my mulligan decision process.. :rolleyes:

Used this calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

The 22%, 7%, and 26% are the only meaningful numbers.

The "Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands)" is not the correct question to calculate. Rather, you should calculate the probability of 6 card hand opening having 0 lands. Then, you do 1 minus that probability to get the probability of having 1 or more lands. As in,
[60, 7 (include scry), 21, 0 (in a 6 cards + scry opening, no land was seen)] = about 4%. In other words, 96% you would have 1 or more lands. Does that make sense or am I totally off?

[Stefanogs]

The 22%, 7%, and 26% are the only meaningful numbers.

The "Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands)" is not the correct question to calculate. Rather, you should calculate the probability of 6 card hand opening having 0 lands. Then, you do 1 minus that probability to get the probability of having 1 or more lands. As in,
[60, 7 (include scry), 21, 0 (in a 6 cards + scry opening, no land was seen)] = about 4%. In other words, 96% you would have 1 or more lands. Does that make sense or am I totally off?

Yeah, but you're on play... if the land is on top you will mulligan again. So you can't include scry.

[CutthroatCasual]

Someone doesn't like losing to Eldrazi: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-loam-miracles#online

[TheFlyinGutchman]

Someone doesn't like losing to Eldrazi: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-loam-miracles#online

That is a most beautiful monstrosity. Obviously this is metagamed for Eldrazi, but would there be major % point losses in other matchups?

[twndomn]

With Chalice being more popular than ever, perhaps it's time to revisit Unexpectedly absent. Being an instant, it would render Warping Wail useless, works better if your list runs 3 Snapcasters. Of course, that respond-to-fetchland play is possible again.

[ozimek]

The 22%, 7%, and 26% are the only meaningful numbers.

The "Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands)" is not the correct question to calculate. Rather, you should calculate the probability of 6 card hand opening having 0 lands. Then, you do 1 minus that probability to get the probability of having 1 or more lands. As in,
[60, 7 (include scry), 21, 0 (in a 6 cards + scry opening, no land was seen)] = about 4%. In other words, 96% you would have 1 or more lands. Does that make sense or am I totally off?

I'm getting the same number directly from the calculator. If you put in [60, 21, 7, 1] you can read all the needed results below.
x<1 = no lands
x>= 1 = one or more lands (96%)
etc..


The reason for looking at 0 or 1 lands combined is that both situations are pretty much a downgrade from the example initial hand, barring ideal one-landers.


Stefanogs had a good point regarding the scry.

Putting in [54, 20, 1, 1] we see that the chance to see a land on the scry is 37% if you have a one-land 6'er. By upping the sample size to 2, the chance increases to ~61% in the top two cards (i.e. you scry a non-land to the bottom and draw card number two from the top). Not 100% sure the second calculation is correct, but it should be close enough.

[prepare4robots]

With Chalice being more popular than ever, perhaps it's time to revisit Unexpectedly absent. Being an instant, it would render Warping Wail useless, works better if your list runs 3 Snapcasters. Of course, that respond-to-fetchland play is possible again.

I have to say, it plays nice with Predict. Put a card on top of its owner's library and predict it away...

[Whitefaces]

Thanks for the list!

So you're telling me I'm walking a dangerous edge here. I could fall over to the dark side (become the guy playing miracles).

I have almost everything in paper, outside of the Tundras which are cheap-ish. :X

EDIT: I can probably fit 3 decks on 1.. I'll probably take this list, one with mentors main, and maybe something else? I guess I can squeeze legends in there?

Indeed! A very dangerous path.

Because of the velocity and digging power of the deck 'small' changes have a much bigger effect on how builds play out than normal, so yes you can definitely put together a few different styles with minimal effort. It's worth the time for your group to test vs Mentor in the MD, in the SB, with Entreat or without etc. These different configurations will definitely require different SBing plans. Learning how to best guess what to expect from the SB is really worth nailing down.


I have to say, it plays nice with Predict. Put a card on top of its owner's library and predict it away...

Cute interaction, but having WW spells require two plains, which a lot of predict lists have been leading away from. If you're playing Entreat as well as a couple Predict, then maybe.

[Minniehajj]

Cute interaction, but having WW spells require two plains, which a lot of predict lists have been leading away from. If you're playing Entreat as well as a couple Predict, then maybe.


If you want something cute with Predict, and WW is a problem, Set Adrift is probably more up your alley =P

[Whitefaces]

If you want something cute with Predict, and WW is a problem, Set Adrift is probably more up your alley =P

I was watching you guys stream with that a month or so ago actually, it's a spicy one! My only complaints are sorcery speed, messes with Snapcaster and close to uncastable in the first few turns. Wear//Tear deals with almost everything annoying anyway while Snaps pester Jaces and Lilis.

[Minniehajj]

I was watching you guys stream with that a month or so ago actually, it's a spicy one! My only complaints are sorcery speed, messes with Snapcaster and close to uncastable in the first few turns. Wear//Tear deals with almost everything annoying anyway while Snaps pester Jaces and Lilis.

I am not the strongest advocate of it of course =P. I personally had issues with the card, many of which you listed above. But since we're listing nonsense cards anyway =P.

In any case, it's possible that the card or things like Unexpectedly Absent are viable options, but I'd rather play something like CJ (if you have access to double plains) or MD w//t as you have been, in this scenario.

[Echinoderm]

Hello Miracles players! Lurker here. Looking forward to commenting and reading awesome posts from all you control junkies. :)

Quick question if I can. How do people here feel about supreme verdict in the sideboard right now? Does it make sense if Mentor is main deck? Also, what about Venser? Thanks! :tongue:

[CutthroatCasual]

Verdict/no Verdict is all preference. I used to play it, but personally I think it's too slow. There are few metas where it's good, but even in those metas I wouldn't pick it over something else (that may or may not do a similar thing.)

We're really good against creature decks already.

[twndomn]

Verdict/no Verdict is all preference. I used to play it, but personally I think it's too slow. There are few metas where it's good, but even in those metas I wouldn't pick it over something else (that may or may not do a similar thing.)

We're really good against creature decks already.

Well..., you could count Goblins, Merfolk, and Eldrazi as creature decks, DnT to certain extent. They all run tons of creatures. Hence, a blanket statement really good against creature decks seems vague to me.

There's nothing slow about Verdict, unless you are comparing it against instant speed Terminus, in that context.

Pro:
1. get pass all counters
2. easier to flashback than Terminus
3. requires no floating on top of library to setup
4. not vulnerable to opponent responding to miracles trigger (clique away, deny fetch for White mana source).
5. another CMC 4 to float for CB, if you suspect opponent will cast Jace, Sneak Attack....

Con:
1. difficult to cast against decks running Port, i.e. DnT
2. sorcery speed, dead card against Lands
3. requires Double White source, some Miracles builds have issue producing it.

[ozimek]

Well..., you could count Goblins, Merfolk, and Eldrazi as creature decks, DnT to certain extent. They all run tons of creatures. Hence, a blanket statement really good against creature decks seems vague to me.

There's nothing slow about Verdict, unless you are comparing it against instant speed Terminus, in that context.
4 mana = cast on turn 4 or later vs Terminus, which can be cast from turn 2 under the right circumstances.

Pro:
1. get pass all counters
2. easier to flashback than Terminus
3. requires no floating on top of library to setup
4. not vulnerable to opponent responding to miracles trigger (clique away, deny fetch for White mana source).
5. another CMC 4 to float for CB, if you suspect opponent will cast Jace, Sneak Attack....

Con:
1. difficult to cast against decks running Port, i.e. DnT
2. sorcery speed, dead card against Lands
3. requires Double White source, some Miracles builds have issue producing it.
4. Does not deal with indestructible creatures (and in theory regeneration, which doesn't exist)
5. Vulnerable to discard, although the same floating that is needed to set up Terminus, could also protect SV from sorcery speed discard.


Ironically the uncounterability is great vs blue aggro-control (i.e. Delvers) but they also tend to play mana denial making 1WWU a huge liability.

The number of Warping Veils in the meta might be very determining for the viability of Supreme Verdict.

On a related note I've seen a few Envelops in sideboards, and now a strict upgrade will become available: Invasive Surgery.
How does Invasive Surgery interact with Supreme Verdict? I suppose the delirium part will take place even though the spell can't be countered? Not a huge deal, since SV will likely be a one-off, so this will mostly be relevant for snap->flashback and information for the opponent. On second thought SV is on the stack when IS resolves, and thus it can't be exiled?

[twndomn]

Ironically the uncounterability is great vs blue aggro-control (i.e. Delvers) but they also tend to play mana denial making 1WWU a huge liability.

The number of Warping Veils in the meta might be very determining for the viability of Supreme Verdict.

On a related note I've seen a few Envelops in sideboards, and now a strict upgrade will become available: Invasive Surgery.
How does Invasive Surgery interact with Supreme Verdict? I suppose the delirium part will take place even though the spell can't be countered? Not a huge deal, since SV will likely be a one-off, so this will mostly be relevant for snap->flashback and information for the opponent. On second thought SV is on the stack when IS resolves, and thus it can't be exiled?

I thought red font is for admin. Anyway, why would you want to cast Terminus on turn 2? Empty Goblin tokens? Must kill asap creature like Dark Confidant? It's rare to cast it on turn 2 or turn 3 without setup, even if you happen to draw it, I am not even sure you should just intuitively fire off.

Indestructible? Isn't that what StP is for? If your opponent is putting Blightsteel into play, I feel you have a bigger problem like Chalice on 1. Boros Charm is mostly Modern, nop, don't see how this would matter.

Rulings
4/8/2016 Invasive Surgery’s delirium ability isn’t checked until after the sorcery spell has been countered. If that spell is put into your graveyard, it will be counted.

[Mackan]

Re: Supreme Verdict

Terminus is often better than Supreme Verdict, but we allready play 4.

I want to add to the list of pros/cons.

Supreme Verdict actually kill all of their creatures and not just put them back in their deck. This can sometimes be a minor downside i.e graveyard-candy for Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Eternal Witness etc but also re-buy of your own creatures. Most of the time it's a very good permanent answer to decks with GSZ or Shardless Agent for example. In matchups where the games tend to go on for many turns this is very relevant and our superior filtering with cantrips is negated by a Jund deck drawing gas every turn. To clarify; Putting creatures on the bottom of their library is canceled after a fetchland activation or a green sun's zenith.

Supreme Verdict is a blue pitch-card to FoW. This is huge in some matchups (like the mirror) as you don't want to die to Monastery Mentor but the cards that answers him are terrible in the CB/Jace battle. Supreme Verdict is sometimes worse against ETA but beeing uncounterable, un-cliqueable and blue makes up for it imo. Venser still gets you but we can't have everything.
In other matchups you want to have a pitch-card for their turn1 chalice of the void or Aether Vial in which case Supreme Verdict beeing a 4drop sometimes is the correct card to pitch. Consider a scenario where you have a hand of Fow, Supreme Verdict, Stoneforge mystic, Ponder and lands. If your Eldrazi Opponent cast turn 1 Grim Monolith into turn 2 Endbringer then Fow pitch SV is great and Stoneforge can (maybe) go the distance. If on the other hand your opponent lead with a bunch of creatures you can save it for later. Miracles is often the reactive deck in a match but it's important to identify that you sometimes can be the aggressor in which case Force of Will is a great tempo card. For these scenarios you don't want a sweeper which makes Supreme Verdict a perfect card to have around. Another example is Merfolk. I gladly trade any 2 cards in hand to stop their COTV on 1 or to get Batterskull going.

The "con" of Supreme Verdict beeing harder to cast due to the WW in it's casting cost is correct but not allways relevant. The upside of beeing immune to flusterstorm, spell pierce, daze, envelop and vendilion clique (sometimes, depending on when it's cast ofc) makes up for it imo. It's often OK to go Island, Plains, Island, Tundra->Supreme Verdict and have Tundra Wastelanded. Wasteland is still annoying but very much less so if there is no creature on the other side of the table. The more creatures in play on the other side the better obviously SV gets. It's still great if they play only 1-2 creatures and sandbag a bunch of disruption because then you can try to set up CB/top and KNOW that you will kill their board turn4. This is a very different tactical advantage compared to terminus/stp because more often than not it's correct to kill the creature right away as you don't know how many turns you have to turn the tables. It's not unheard of that your opponent let your CB resolve and save their countermagic for Terminus, in which case you just win on the spot. Or your opponent put an extra treath on the board on their "final" turn to play around STP and save the FoW for terminus.

One minor thing when comparing Supreme Verdict to Terminus is that it's less relitant on Brainstorm to set up. This is important in matchups vs Eldrazi and Merfolk because of Chalice of the Void. Brainstorm is probably the best card in our deck but stressing it even further is a recipe for disaster. Supreme Verdict becomes better compared to Terminus the worse your filtering gets. And it will get worse. Even though Ponder is a great card I often side two of them out just because of how devastating COTV is.

[KZhang]

How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?

Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:

1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version

[CutthroatCasual]

G1 is a nightmare. I don't think it gets much better whether you MD W/T or not. G2 and 3 gets better because of W/T in your SB + Mentor if you have it + Blood Moon + Moat if you can afford one. Any of those is very strong on its own already, even stronger when used together.

I've always maintained that the best Miracles lists run at least 1 ETA. This current meta definitely amplifies that assertion.

[mort-]

How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?

Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:

1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version

One Wear / Tear main is golden, that I can assure you. And by now, probably some other people will, too. I still think the MU stands and falls with Chalice 1, so getting rid of that should be your top priority. Without Chalice you should be able to stall long enough to get your hate (Blood Moon, Moat, etc.) going and lock the game up. If Chalice sticks, you have to to play more aggressive into your hatepieces and lock the game with a Terminus before / after that. Obv, that's a bit harder with your cantrips locked up.

Edit: Cutthroat Casual is right, ETA is at it's best right now. I don't think Mentor is that good, most players have adjusted.

[Stefanogs]

If you want to md wear // tear you may instead md engineered explosives and even one academy ruins (without karakas and cavern of souls, still with 21 lands) to do it again and again. Explosives kill anything between 0 and 3 cmc.

Anyway, still think that council's is the best generic answer, because you don't need to change your manabase to do it one more time. I don't like md Wear // Tear because it doesn't answer creatures nor planeswalkers...

[Lormador]

How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?

Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:

1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version

Personally, I've gone completely out to left field to play the old RIP/Helm version of the deck, which should in theory be able to lock the Eldrazi out of attacking and be a little more resilient to Chalice@1. I haven't, in practice, actually had the chance to jam any games against the intended target. I can't say whether it really works or not, but the idea seems sound to me.

That is, if playing RIP/Helm can technically be considered "sound" at all, but on this question I care little. I love slamming enchantments, and Enlightened Tutor is a very fun way to control the top card of the library with Counterbalance.

[CutthroatCasual]

Edit: Cutthroat Casual is right, ETA is at it's best right now. I don't think Mentor is that good, most players have adjusted.

Mentor is a very strong SB card. I don't believe he's good in the MD though. In G1s, we want to be more controlling since it's the basis of our deck, and he doesn't allow us to do that. Post-board games are when we adjust our strategy. If you want to play Mentor MB, you probably shouldn't be playing Miracles, but rather some sort of Stoneblade/Esper Mentor variant.

[ozimek]

I thought red font is for admin.

Sorry, changed to blue, and will be more disciplined with my quoting going forward. Thanks for pointing that out.


Anyway, why would you want to cast Terminus on turn 2? Empty Goblin tokens? Must kill asap creature like Dark Confidant? It's rare to cast it on turn 2 or turn 3 without setup, even if you happen to draw it, I am not even sure you should just intuitively fire off.
On the draw on turn two you are likely getting a 2 for 1 against aggressive decks. Doesn't come up very often, admittedly. Turn 3 vs. turn 4 is still very significant.


Indestructible? Isn't that what StP is for? If your opponent is putting Blightsteel into play, I feel you have a bigger problem like Chalice on 1. Boros Charm is mostly Modern, nop, don't see how this would matter.
I have taken care of many a Marit Lage token with Terminus. Obv., Terminus is not in the deck after sideboarding vs lands, though. Swords is better in most situations against a single fatty, but if e.g. vs. lands giving them 20 life can be a huge liability if you don't have the Loam engine shut down.

Are you thinking Supreme Verdict is mostly a sideboard card? I have seen maindecks with a 3/1 split, and I would never do that. I might consider it for the SB, but it would compete with Moat for that slot. The price tag on a Moat is a fair concern, of course, but wouldn't Moat be superior in most non-delver situations?

Regarding the discussion of increasing threat density in the opponent's deck with Terminus, I think that is a very minor issue. Our cards (especially the finishers) become much more powerful in the late game, whereas most small creatures become less threatening. Dryad Arbor is extremely pesky though, as it is so easy to bring back with a fetch land.

[Careve]

Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?

[Quasim0ff]

Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?

We run 45 minute rounds. I've drawn matches two times in the last six months.

I actually find it to be beneficial, as the less amount of time make you focus on being quick. Also, it means you actually have to pay attention to your opponent, and as such, you can (politely) ask them to speed up, if they are taking an unreasonable amount of time.

[Lormador]

Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?

You could also consider the plan of winning a long game 1, and not having time to finish game 2.

I've been playing RIP/Helm, and there are a number of free wins you can get with this version that can also speed play considerably. It's so weird compared to the normal Miracles, though, that I'm not sure they should really be discussed in the same thread.

[redwall13]

hi all, have picked up again miracles after some time and wanted to try the legend build. I have played the following list yesterday in a game night and won against painter 2-0, the mirror 2-0 and lost to BUG shardless 2-1. Shardless was a tight game but lost as he completely destroyed my hand on the draw in the final game with t1 thoughtseize, t2 hymm, t3 liliana, and then shardless goyf etc. My starting hand was flooded strand, volcanic, island, 2x stp, 1 brainstorm, counterspell and flooded in the first three draws. I am quite happy with the build but would appreciate some inputs. I am not sure about the 2nd ETA and the manabase (I have cut cavern as it can really shine in some instances but overall I think it makes the mana a bit awkward I added one fetch more instead of a plains or 5th island as I find it is important to have another way to shuffle without ponder).

Main
2 Arid Mesa
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
4 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Tundra
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear

[ozimek]

I'd like to have a discussion on Blood Moon vs Back to Basics.

I have been running one or two Blood Moons in the SB for a long time, but am considering a switch to B2B.

Blood Moon
Pros
* Better colour hosing against most decks
* Disables fetches (see below!)
* Shuts down Marit Lage combo
* Does not die to Red Blast
* Non-basics can still be used to activate Top etc.

Cons
* Disables fetches (hurts us a lot!)

Best vs
* Eldrazi (Eye of Ugin Discount, no or few colourless sources)
* BUG
* Lands

Mana base constraints
* Fewer Tundras?
* Fewer Fetches?

Back to Basics
Pros
* Does not kill fetches. Our fetches are likely better than the opponent's
* Pitches to FoW
* More restricting on "off-colour" mana. This might actually be a con?

Cons
* Dies to REB
* Easier to play around
* Does not deal with Marit Lage

Best vs
* Grindy multi-colour decks like Esper, 4C delver
* Delver decks that cheat on mana (i.e. most delver decks)
* Grixis
* Might be playable vs. Death & Taxes? Hoses Ports, but OTOH they have lots of Basic Plains and Vials...

Mana base constraints
* Basic Mountain might be warranted to supplement Volcanics(?) I'm thinking 1 Mountain + 1 Volcanic as opposed to 3 Volcanics.

Generally, Blood Moon is the harder lock, but it also hurts ourselves a lot more mainly due to disabling shuffles from fetch lands. If we are behind on board position, it can often be very dangerous to drop a Blood Moon, as it severely hurts our ability to dig for answers. B2B seems like it would come in in more match-ups and give a small edge, whereas Blood Moon in a complete bomb, but useable in fewer match-ups. Miracles has fair game against most decks, which would suggest going for a small edge in more match-ups, but the inability to shut down Marit Lage seems like a huge deal. If we look at hte "Best vs" lists, the match-ups under Blood Moon are the ones where I feel we need the most help.

Any experiences with B2B would be much appreciated. When does it come in? Are you generally just slamming it ASAP? Does bouncing B2B with Venser ever come up?

On a related note the number of Tundras to run might warrant a discussion. Almost everyone runs 3 Tundras, but I often find they are a liability. I saw on Joe's latest list on mtgpulse.com (http://mtgpulse.com/event/24100#326815) that he is running only a single Tundra, but that may be due to him having 2 Karakas+Cavern+Cavern(SB).
I am considering going down to 2 Tundras in my "3-Ponder, no Mentor main, no legends" build regardless of the Moon vs B2B discussion.

[mr_tolkien]

Blood Moon is not there to be a value card.

You enter Blood Moon when it's a kill.

Eldrazi, Delver, and BUG can't play under Blood Moon. They are the three most popular decks after Miracles.

Back to Basics is cute, but it doesn't provide the instant game-winning advantage that Blood Moon does. The opponent might still be able to cast one or two spells. He can use his future lands.

[CutthroatCasual]

One of my friends once said: "Your non-land permanents should win you the game."

In the MUs where you would bring them in, B2B cannot [i]win you the game. Blood Moon often can.

Losing the ability to fetch is a big detriment, but it's a tradeoff worth making if it ensures that your opponents won't be able to play Magic for a good majority of the rest of the game (assuming they have a basic Forest in their deck to cast a KGrip or Decay, but by then you'll have either established an ETA or Jace ticking up.) B2B lets them make nonbasic land drops to cast those enchantment removal spells, Blood Moon makes their nonbasic land drops useless. If the only argument to not running Blood Moon, and it seems to be the only one based on what I've read on this thread, is that we can't fetch, I'll run Blood Moon every time. With our basic land density, it only takes one Ponder or Brainstorm or a Sensei's Top (which can be used with any color mana) after landing a Moon to find a wincon, even if that wincon is a VClique.

[iPhone7]

Good afternoon folks. I am sorry if this is a repeat question, but can someone give me a cliffs notes on when to board a mentor in? I've seen some lists that have 2 entreat main and 2 mentor side. Other than when you're starting game 3 with 8 minutes left on the clock, what matchups do you guys typically like mentor against? Also, when you board mentor in against those folks, do you board the entreats out? Thanks!

[CutthroatCasual]

Short answer since I'm on my phone: MUs where we need to be the aggressor because the other deck has inevitability are where Mentor shines. Often ETA will come out, sometimes not–for example, if you're expecting to use Mentor in a defensive capacity, i.e. against Eldrazi is the big one right now. It's good to just have a backup "I win" button in ETA. However, in games where I personally board in Mentor, I take out at least 1 ETA, but this is likely more a consequence of boarding in other stuff like a second Clique.

[gdtpara]

I'd also consider From the ashes in that kind of slot.
It unallow the float mana and kill the moon/B2B play, but is 1 more mana.

[caprino]

hi,matcup vs eldrazi aggro and eldrazi ramp is difficult?

[fluuu]

hi,matcup vs eldrazi aggro and eldrazi ramp is difficult?
Eldrazi ramp is imposible

[CutthroatCasual]

I'd also consider From the ashes in that kind of slot.
It unallow the float mana and kill the moon/B2B play, but is 1 more mana.

This has been discussed at length. Against the decks you would ever cast this against (which are the same decks you would play B2B and BM against), it's not fast enough nor back-breaking enough.

[prepare4robots]

This has been discussed at length. Against the decks you would ever cast this against (which are the same decks you would play B2B and BM against), it's not fast enough nor back-breaking enough.

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

[CutthroatCasual]

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

I was talking about From the Ashes.

As for B2B in Lossett's list, Joe Lossett can do whatever he wants because for whatever reason he and he alone does well with his Legends build. I've not seen anyone have nearly the same amount of success with Joe's list. As such, he can play whatever cards he wants and likely still do well.

[twndomn]

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

You are mostly correct. Actually, the MU you would consider these hate are:
Lands
Shardless BUG
Eldrazi

Against horrible opponents, you can just float Blood Moon or B2B, wait for them to tap those non-basic, often that's the game. However, most decent players of above mentioned decks except Eldrazi would have at least 1 Basic/un-crack Fetch in play for the SB games. The issue with B2B has always been the timing. The issue with Blood Moon is not simply timing, also your opponent has to step into it, and the Moon also makes your Miracles deck very difficult to operate. Sure, From the Ashes won't have those problems, it has a different problem: Warping Wail. Even DnT runs WW, I've run into DnT's WW when I tried to CJ something.

At this meta, this point in time, I would say you are strongly recommended to have 1~2 SB slots for these non-basic land hate. 0 is not acceptable.

[Quasim0ff]

I haven't played Blood Moon, From the Ashes as well as From the ashes; I've actually been really happy so far.

I, personally, dislike Blood Moon against delver. I don't think it's particularly strong. We will be struggling with resolving it.

I don't think it's strong versus Lands and Shardless. Shardless always have access to Abrupt Decay, and Lands always have grip; They are even playing Abrupt Decay against us now.

I think From the Ashes is highly superior against Shardless, than Blood Moon and Back to Basics. I think B2B is close to unplayabe against them. It literally does nothing, besides tap them down until they find their decay. From the Ashes just poops on them.

[mort-]

Blood Moon is very strong against Delver. The same against lands, you do have to wait for a good opportunity though. It's not a "slam and win".
I did Top8 my second Legacy Challenge in a row yesterday, starting 0-1 and then going all the way to the semifinals, in which I got absolutly crushed by a blind card drawn and a blindflip off CB in the same turn G2. I'm still not sure if I want to do commentary, but I'll probably record the replays and post them on Youtube again.

[rancOr_]

Hi guys,little report. Yesterday I went to the Dutch Open Series, there were 71 players.
I played Predictable Miracles (+/- Mackan/Minniehajj list).
Decided to test 1 ETA/1 Mentor instead of 2 ETA.

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Jace,the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Monastery Mentor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Predict
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
1 Council's Judgement
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Izzet Staticaster

R1: Miracles 0-1
Since I was stuck for over an hour in traffic I arrived when the first round had already started for 10 minutes. Luckily I was still able to participate, but I start with a game loss.
G2 I win the dice roll and mull to 6 to keep a hand of 3 land,counterbalance,predict,terminus.
I play a t2 Counterbalance which resolves and so does he. I draw land and another terminus and scoop to his t4 Jace. Dont feel so great after this but decide to keep going.


R2: ANT 2-0
G1 I mull to five and keep a hand of 2 land,Ponder,Ponder,SCM on the draw. I scry and see a FoW.
He goes t1 Duress and takes a Ponder. I Ponder and take a Predict leaving Counterspell on top. He goes Gprobe+Cabal and takes my FoW. I just play fetch go. He goes all-in and I had the Counterspell.
G2 I keep a decent hand and set up CB/Top with some counters and beat him with a V.Clique.

R3: Burn 2-1
G1 I keep a hand with 2 Island,Brainstorm,Ponder,STP,Terminus ,X . He goes t1 Goblin Guide. I Ponder and shuffle, but dont draw any fetch/white source. He plays some burn and another Goblin Guide. I Brainstorm into a Ponder which shows me a Tundra but it's too late and I can't stabilize.
G2 Close game but I can Terminus his Goblin Guide+ Eidolon and stabilize on low life with SFM.
G3 I get to a situation where I'm on 1 life with a Counterbalance in play (no SDT) and he only has one land since he had Fireblast'ed me. He draws and suspend a Rift Bolt which I have to Counterspell next turn. I draw only lands but get to STP/Flusterstorm some spells untill I draw Snapcaster and Brainstorm and get there.

R4: Elves 1-1-1
G1 I believe he mulls to 6 on the draw, but I win this game quite easily with CB/Top lock.
G2 After a long grind, I think I have stabilized a bit at 3 life since I V.Clique'd him and took a DRS to bottom (he had 2 in hand). I STP'ed the other one. I had a Counterbalance, V. Clique and Izzet Staticaster in play. Had to fetch down to 2 life to play Staticaster. He draws another DRS, I miss on CB and dont draw an answer.
G3 We get to extra turns but neither of us can finish. Pretty sure I would have won this though.

R5: Rock 2-1
G1 I can keep his creatures off the board and gain massive CA with Predict and Jace.
G2 He plays a Trinisphere which slows me down a lot while beating with Gaddock Teeg and Kotr. He had a Karakas too and tapped it some times but I didnt have the STP so can't go STP into hardcast Terminus. I scoop when he casts Armageddon. I didn't knew exactly what he was playing but it was some Rock type brew featuring Noble,DRS,Quasali,SFM,Goyf,KotR,Liliana,Crucible,..
G3 I mull to 6 on the play. But I can set up a Brainstorm into Terminus and play a Mentor+Ponder. He has Liliana, Goyf, Quasali but I found 2 SDT and he scoops 2 turns after.

R6: Nic Fit 2-1
G1 He has a Liliana ticking up to 6 while I had Jace eventually. He ultimates me and I have to let Jace go and he follows up with a Thrun. I don't find Terminus and lose.
G2/G3 I can grind him out and finish with ETA/Mentor.

R7: Deathblade 2-0
Don't remember his name but I know he's a very good player. I had seen before he was on Deathblade.
G1 I can Terminus a TNN and a bit later another one. I don't remember all the details as a lot of things happened here but I got there with Jace.
G2 Another grind, but after a long game I can take control. REB's/Terminus were really good here obviously.

QF: ANT 1-2
I have to play against Jamie Westlake,imo one of the best ANT players in Europe so I know it will be a good match.
G1: I keep a decent hand with some lands and cantrips and he discards my CB. I can always leave up Counterspell+FoW and he isn't ready to combo through that while I eot ETA for 2 and get there.
G2: He mulls to 6. We get to a situation where I have a Top in play and I brainstorm/cantrip a bit tapping out with 3 lands in play (I had found Counterbalance and also had Clique,Predict,X in hand).
He only had 3 cards in hand when I passed the turn. He draws and goes for an EtW and makes 8 goblins :( I had 4 turns to find my Izzet Staticaster but couldn't find him.
G3 was pretty epic. Both my 7 and 6 card hand didn't have a single land so I have to mulligan down to 5 and keep a hand of land,BS,CB,X,X on the play. I just go land go. I think he plays a Ponder or something. Next turn I Brainstorm into CB,FoW,X but no land. I leave the FoW on top. He plays a discard spell . He sets up his hand a bit while I draw FoW and another spell. I then find a 2nd land and play CB which he Decays EOT. I play another one the following turn that get's decayed aswell. He knew this since he had prob'd before and didn't take any of the CB. On his turn he goes EtW I think for 10-12 but not all-in. I drew another FoW and Staticaster one of the previous turns^^ I topdeck my 3th land and can play Staticaster. We both draw go for 1-2 turns and I draw V.Clique which I play eot and I see Dark Ritual,LED,Infernal Tutor,Tendrils. I decide to bottom TOA since I had FoW,FoW,predict,REB ,X in hand and only had him on a 6 turn clock while at 16 life and 5 lands untapped. He Cabal Therapies me which I hardcast FoW, and follows up with a Duress to take my other FoW and can easily combo out with LED,IT for PIF. Unfortunately the Clique trigger gave him a Cabal Therapy and he drew a Duress. He goes on to win the event, well played ! ;)

[waz]

Split T4 of the SCG Baltimore Classic yesterday. Will post report in the next few days.

[MiraclesWizard]

Split T4 of the SCG Baltimore Classic yesterday. Will post report in the next few days.

how'd you tie for 4th, Miracles was 2nd and then again in 23/24th place?

[Quasim0ff]

how'd you tie for 4th, Miracles was 2nd and then again in 23/24th place?

They split for prizepool and played it out for points/whatever SCG classics give now. As well as trophy?

[waz]

We split the prize pool, and determined winners for each match, in a nonrandom method. No games in top 4.

[twndomn]

Looking at Miracles at Baltimore,
2 Surgical in a list,
1 RiP in another list,
but the most common sb config is 2 Containment Priest and 1 RiP.

Is the Priest back in trend again? This is like fashion. It is a versatile card no doubt, ok against Vial decks, turns off non-Omni show and tell, decent against graveyard, ok against Elves. I guess the most common sb config at this point in time would be:
2 Cliques
3 Red Blast Effects
2 non-basic land hates
2 Containment Priests
2 Flusterstorms

That's 11 already. After that, the rest of 4 seems to vary a lot. Yeah, people say Moat is a narrow card, it's also pricey, but that seems to be the flavor of the month. I wonder if the trend will continue if Eldrazi eventually loses its popularity. I mean, there's like one Eldrazi in the top 32.

[Quasim0ff]

Looking at Miracles at Baltimore,
2 Surgical in a list,
1 RiP in another list,
but the most common sb config is 2 Containment Priest and 1 RiP.

Is the Priest back in trend again? This is like fashion. It is a versatile card no doubt, ok against Vial decks, turns off non-Omni show and tell, decent against graveyard, ok against Elves. I guess the most common sb config at this point in time would be:
2 Cliques
3 Red Blast Effects
2 non-basic land hates
2 Containment Priests
2 Flusterstorms

That's 11 already. After that, the rest of 4 seems to vary a lot. Yeah, people say Moat is a narrow card, it's also pricey, but that seems to be the flavor of the month. I wonder if the trend will continue if Eldrazi eventually loses its popularity. I mean, there's like one Eldrazi in the top 32.
I think you want to include 2x Artifact/Enchantment hate (wear//tear, Council's Judgement etc) in your "stock" sideboard approach.

That leaves, basically, 2 flex slots which are usually some number of mentor (if not in the main) as well as Izzet Staticaster.


I personally think Priest is superior to any other hate versus reanimater/SnT. I think you want Surgicals over RiP also, due to Snapcaster being incredible.

[waz]

SCG added an extra staticaster to my SB, otherwise it was correct.

Priests are also decent against decks running GSZ, (elves, maverick), and are sometimes just a flash bear that you can apply pressure with.

RIP has some additional value against goyf/mongoose/drs/lands, and isn't terrible against storm.

[twndomn]

SCG added an extra staticaster to my SB, otherwise it was correct.

Priests are also decent against decks running GSZ, (elves, maverick), and are sometimes just a flash bear that you can apply pressure with.

RIP has some additional value against goyf/mongoose/drs/lands, and isn't terrible against storm.

This might derail the Miracles discussion a little bit, but the meta has been shifting.

I used to think Priest is great against Elves, until Julian went on all the social media promoting Chaos Elves. I mean, he might not be the inventor of it, but he's advocating for all the elf players to switch out Natural Order. Ok, so Priest can still turn off GSZ into Reclamation Sage play (to kill CB for obvious reasons), in short, I'm not sure. As long as Jessup is still doing the traditional Elves, as seen in Baltimore, I guess it's better to be safe.

Ever since the introduction of Eldrazi, I just don't see RUG Delver anymore. Like..., I go to all these LGS for small Legacy events, I see zero Mongoose, there used to be at least 1 or 2 of them in any given events. Look at Baltimore, zero in the top 32.

Furthermore, I am more concerned about Shardless BUG, not Eldrazi. Miracles cannot spend 25~30 minutes game one only to lose to Shardless BUG because of some miraculous cascading. I am pretty sure non-basic land hate is not the solution, not against fetch-basic Shardless players with null rod in the SB.

[waz]

SCG Baltimore Top 4 Split Tournament Report

First off the list: Deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100741)

After scrubbing out hard in the Open [I don’t play standard anyway], I was looking forward to the Legacy Classic [Legacy and Vintage are preferred formats]. I had gone down to Baltimore with a friend, and the only issue was going to be the four hour drive I had to make whenever my friend and I were done with the Classic. I’ve been playing this deck for quite a while now, alternating with Painter. The list on the Star City site added a Staticaster to my sideboard. I only ran one. I’ve been running this list fairly consistently with little to no changes recently, and even though I was considering replacing Venser up until the night before, I ended up not doing so, as I figured it was better to go with consistency. I don’t have sideboarding notes, so consider the sideboard section rough approximations.

Round 01 Douglas McKay (U/R Dream Halls Combo) (2-0)
G1: I don’t have who won the die roll here, and consequently who was on the play. Doug Intuitioned for Mizzix Mastery and Enter the Infinite. However, the Dream Halls was countered, and Snapcaster beats eventually get there.
Sideboarding:(I have no idea what he’s on, other than it’s an ETI combo deck using the graveyard)
- 4 Swords, probably a Terminus, Snapcaster, Ponder/Jace, + 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Clique, RIP
G2: Doug starts off, and I resolve an early Rest in Peace, followed by a Clique to take Dream Halls. After two hits from the flying trio, Doug concedes, and tells me he is unable to win through a Rest in Peace. His kill is a flashbacked Conflagrate.
(1-0)

Round 02 Daniel Harrison (15th) (Shardless BUG) (2-0) Daniel's List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100756)
G1: Daniel is on the play. It was a bit of a grind, with Swords keeping Deathrites from becoming active, and we trade resources. I have top/counterbalance, and the ancestral visions don’t get to resolve. Eventually he succumbs to a pair of Snapcasters beating down.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Probably Pyroblasts, Wear/Tears, Moat, Blood Moon, Flusterstorm, RIP
G2: Daniel is on the play again. I think Daniel got a bit flooded, as I was able to resolve a Jace, protect him, and ultimate. I definitely appreciate Daniel not just scooping and actually letting Jace ultimate.
(2-0)

Round 03 Chris Muller (22nd) (Shardless BUG) (0-2) Chris' List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100761)
G1: Another BUG deck. I was on the play. I never saw a Shardless Agent game 1, and put Chris on a BUG control build. Having mana problems, and facing down a Jace slowly going up, I conceded in order to have a chance for a full match.
Sideboarding: Same as Round 2, but no Wear/Tear
G2: Turns out there would be plenty of time. I got a bit flooded this game, and after getting Chris to 9, thought I had stabilized with an Entreat during combat on his turn. I did not tap out for the Entreat, and had enough angels left to get blown out by a succession of Abrupt Decay, Lili sacrifice, play new Lili sacrifice. I never saw it coming. Very well done
(2-1)

Round 04 Lucas Allison (Blue Burn) (2-0)
G1: A typical Delver style deck, featuring Stormchaser Mage and Monastery Swiftspear. I stabilize at 4 life, with an active counter/top lock and uptick Jace. Jace ultimates.
Sideboarding: - Force of Will, + 2 Pyroblast, Staticaster, Fluster
G2: I take a few hits, he gets a bit flooded, I sit behind counter/top, and eventually a few angels come to my rescue. They are not angels of mercy, and two swings later, he’s at 0.
(3-1)

Round 05 Max Ansbro (Dark Maverick/Junkblade) (2-1)
G1: I’m on the play. Max mulligans and keeps a 6. I have this deck down as Dark Maverick, but it could very well have been Junk Stoneblade. I’m not really sure what happened this game, but it was a win at high life totals, so probably Jace.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Wear/Tears, VClique, Moat, Blood Moon, Staticaster
G2: He gets a few hits in, until I land a Moat. We play draw go for a bit until he finds a Scryb Ranger, which my Staticaster will conveniently do nothing against. I didn’t find a swords or terminus, and die to ranger hits with a SoFI.
Sideboarding: No Change
G3: Another game that ended at a high life total. Probably Jace.
(4-1)

Round 06 Manuel Eliopoulos (17th) (Junkblade) (2-0) Manuel's List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100790)
G1: I’m on the play. Swords does its thing, preventing Deathrites from becoming too problematic. I think Manuel flooded out this game. Beat down with Snapcasters.
Sideboarding: Same as above
G2: Manuel’s on the play. He’s having mana issues and can’t find land in time. I resolve a Mentor, and Blood Moon, and he’s done.
(5-1)

Round 07 Joe Milia (8th) (Cloud Post) (ID) Joe's List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100737)
Joe and I are 5th and 6th going into this round so we ID and figure our breakers are good enough. We both make it in after the round is over. I didn’t find out until after that he was on Cloud Post. Interestingly, after the round ended, Joe ended up ahead of me in seeding for T8.
(5-1-1)

I got some food, and came back to wait for the announcement of top 8. The round lasted quite a bit longer because of a judge call that resulted in a player being disqualified.

Quarterfinals Sean Griffith (6th) (Nic Fit) (2-1) Sean's List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100730)

A grindfest that took about an hour and a half, with swift pace of play and no slow play.

G1: We go back and forth, with Sean Pathing his own Explorer instead of getting hit by Terminus. I have a Jace ticking up, and eventually he gets a Sigarda down with Karakas protection. Jace soaks a hit or two, and we continue to grind, until I am able to entreat for six angels. I have probably 20 cards left in library and am at 2. I’m dead to Pulse/Deed/Rhino/GSZ. He doesn’t find it, and the angels take it.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Containment Priests, Cliques, RIP, Blood Moon
G2: Another grindfest. Sean’s on the play and mulligans to 6. Sean is having mana issues, and I’m beating in with Clique + Snapcaster. Eventually he draws out of it at two, and Rhino + Swords is a 10 point life swing in his favor. He resolves Tsunami leaving me with two plains. I don’t topdeck a terminus, and die.
Sideboarding: It is stupidity time, after 7pm, and I bring in Venser, as well as 2 Forces.
G3: I’m on the play and we both mulligan. Sean’s having land problems again. I eventually land Mentor. I start cycling tops and swing 7. He names Abandon Hope with Slaughter games, and concedes.

Top 4 Split. We divided the tickets, and nonrandomly determined the winner of each pairing via concessions and end the tournament. No games were played, and we finally got finished sometime after 7pm (9:30am player meeting). After that was the approximately four hour drive home, arriving just after midnight, Monday morning.

Some thoughts:

Several of the rounds, especially the early rounds went to time, and longer, because of this deck. I did not gone to time this tournament, and as far as I can recall, the only time I went to time was when I had the lock in and my opponent did not realize he was dead. It is something I constantly stress to everyone who wants to pick up the deck. Know, or at least have an idea of what you’re looking for when you top/fetch/ponder, practice the physical movements to gain speed, and it’ll save a lot of awkward conversations at the end of games.

I constructed the manabase to be as wasteland proof as possible. Multiple games, my opponents were stuck with wastelands that were unable to cripple my development. Even against Sean, having the extra basics was useful when his Veteran Explorer died. There were some hands that were a bit awkward, but with the amount of cantrips the deck runs, hitting the land drops should not be a problem.

Overall I was happy with the deck. I like the split of threats, and both Mentor and ETA have their own merits. My opponents were great, and walking around I saw a lot of positive interactions, including people conceding to superior boardstates in turns, rather than knocking both players out with a draw.

Please let me know if you have any questions, or suggestions, I'm always happy to talk.

[CutthroatCasual]

Good to see success against Shardless, a MU that has been known to give us headaches.


the only time I went to time was when I had the lock in and my opponent did not realize he was dead.

I hate this. And every time I complain about getting a draw because "my opponent just did not realize that there was no way to win" it's always met with "top keks you're le Miracles player DAE it's always your fault if you draw" yea well you try getting Jace to 13 at a rate faster than +2 per turn. Fucking pisses me off. I realize I can't just expect them to concede but when they're spending a minute+ each turn thinking about how they can break out of the lock when there's literally no way to do so and I'm EOT Top for 2 seconds, draw and pass, they should do both of us a favor and scoop. But apparently Miracles players cannot ever have fast turns :rolleyes:

[Echinoderm]

Good to see success against Shardless, a MU that has been known to give us headaches.



I hate this. And every time I complain about getting a draw because "my opponent just did not realize that there was no way to win" it's always met with "top keks you're le Miracles player DAE it's always your fault if you draw" yea well you try getting Jace to 13 at a rate faster than +2 per turn. Fucking pisses me off. I realize I can't just expect them to concede but when they're spending a minute+ each turn thinking about how they can break out of the lock when there's literally no way to do so and I'm EOT Top for 2 seconds, draw and pass, they should do both of us a favor and scoop. But apparently Miracles players cannot ever have fast turns :rolleyes:

Lol thank you for this.

[mort-]

Soooo here's the playlist of saturdays matches. As I noticed too late that my recording software was a trial (that had ended), I couldn't record directly. Rerecorded them from the replays, again without commentary because of laziness. Sadly, due to it being replays, there are no waiting times inbetween actions, which makes the games pretty fast. Also, you don't see any CB flips, which is kind of strange. I'll have to skip the next two Legacy Challenges sadly (well, not sadly as the one in June is GP Prague, HYYYYPE), so I'll try to play the one in July. Maybe with commentary if I find a good way to blank out all the slurs and insults in our Skype conversation ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEL33TZqyxU&list=PL9WxIVo3-7fRO4ld13f8OLU5rJZ1Zov-e Here's the playlist and there's the deck:

http://i.imgur.com/J2MDjtx.jpg

A few thoughts:

The whole tournament felt incredible awkward. I had spots of insane missfortune and was also inredibly lucky very often (see round 1, the swiss Miracle matches G1, the top 4 Miracle match, the Eldrazi matches, the swiss Miracle matches G2 and G3 and probably some other spots I missed). The horrendous missplay of the day was obv not taking a blue card in the last game. I immediately realized it after drawing the Wear / Tear.
The list itself is pretty solid, but that's about it. I'm thinking of doing something else for Prague, so hopefully there'll be some good League posting with a new list soon. The sideboard feels pretty well, although the Blood Moons are starting to drop in value. I still think they are very good and they probably deserve the slot, but the way the tournament went they were either very good oder very bad. Generally, I try to not include cards that have that big of a space inbetween, so there will probably also be some changes regarding the SB.

[MiraclesWizard]

any thoughts on misdirection into the sb??

[mort-]

The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.

[MiraclesWizard]

The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.

i was thinking AV, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, FOW, pyroblast etc...

[cavalrywolfpack]

Hey guys! I'm new to Legacy and want to start with Miracles. However, I am curious about win cons. I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?). Which appears to be the best for a new Legacy player, and is it possible to play without the red splash? I can't get my hands on Volcanics at the moment but eventually will.

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[twndomn]

The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.

I have misdirected Hymn back to Shardless player such that he has no hand, only lands in play, and he still won; all he needed was just little cascading action into vision, some lucky-bounce, chicken-dinner, card-advantage rains on him, he's right back into the game.


Hey guys! I'm new to Legacy and want to start with Miracles. However, I am curious about win cons. I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?). Which appears to be the best for a new Legacy player, and is it possible to play without the red splash? I can't get my hands on Volcanics at the moment but eventually will.
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Control decks in any format is to understand each MU. You need to know which cards are must-counter in any given MUs, this does not suit well for new-to-Legacy novice. Therefore, as long as you make good trades, use SDT efficiently (turn memorizing into a habit), it really doesn't matter what your win con is. People have won plenty of games using Jace or Clique or Snapcaster. Yes, it is possible to play any Legacy decks, are you asking if a Miracles player can win a Legacy tournament without red splash? You need to be more clear on the question.

[kOny]

2 mentor & 2 predict main are really good vs shardless.
Then post side i'm used to crush them with keranos

[cavalrywolfpack]

I have misdirected Hymn back to Shardless player such that he has no hand, only lands in play, and he still won; all he needed was just little cascading action into vision, some lucky-bounce, chicken-dinner, card-advantage rains on him, he's right back into the game.



Control decks in any format is to understand each MU. You need to know which cards are must-counter in any given MUs, this does not suit well for new-to-Legacy novice. Therefore, as long as you make good trades, use SDT efficiently (turn memorizing into a habit), it really doesn't matter what your win con is. People have won plenty of games using Jace or Clique or Snapcaster. Yes, it is possible to play any Legacy decks, are you asking if a Miracles player can win a Legacy tournament without red splash? You need to be more clear on the question.
I mean is the deck playable without the splash. This is mostly for LGS events and the like.

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[Lormador]

I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?).

RIP/Helm is a special beast, which I play currently more as an act of love than out of any abstract analysis of its being better. It may not be, and I don't care. While many of the deck's games will play out like a more traditional Miracles deck would, other games don't feel "normal" at all. In addition to this, the deck has different matchups than the usual Ponder Miracles (I don't have experience with Legends so I cannot speak to that).

Take RUG and Shardless BUG for example. RUG is generally thought of as about even, but winnable, while Shardless is considered at least slightly unfavorable for Ponder Miracles. When you put 3 Rest In Peace into your main deck, however, things change. RUG's most important threats are blanked, and Shardless has a much more difficult time closing out the game: which they have to do before Helm of Obedience gets cast, and there's precious little in their deck that can answer this card.

Many Eldrazi decks, in addition to this, have a very hard time dealing with Energy Field / RIP lock, with most list I've seen just scooping up their cards game 1 against this combination. Postboard they'll have an answer, and if they find it, hopefully it can be Forced. The matchup is about even in my personal testing.

These improved matchups come with a heavy price. Mirror matches slip from even to unfavorable, as RIP/Helm attempts to oppose Snapcaster Mage and seemingly endless blasts with clunky, mana-intensive permanents that do little individually. Worse, just thinking about the play "Flickerwisp targeting Rest In Peace, Wasteland your Tundra, Energy Field sacrifice trigger?" makes me cringe.

As for whether the lists are "outdated," it's never been the most popular variant and hasn't had a lot of players pushing it for a long time, maybe ever. It's the type of deck that one wants a Moat for, especially right now, and this card isn't so easy to get hold of. It is theoretically sound, in the sense that if you're going to play a long game with a control deck you want permanents to do the heavy lifting, and very customizable given the presence of Enlightened Tutor in the main and/or side.

[Quasim0ff]

I mean is the deck playable without the splash. This is mostly for LGS events and the like.

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What's your meta like?

I personally think the red splash is necessary. You can just add a basic mountain and a Steam vents, and you're okay with the red splash.

Red blast is arguably our most important sideboard card. You simply need them in so many matchups.

[CutthroatCasual]

Take RUG and Shardless BUG for example. RUG is generally thought of as about even, but winnable



RUG Delver is the most favorable out of all the flavors IMO (like 60/40 or better). The games we lose are close, but the games we win are blowouts. Playing around Stifle is easy, CB is an actual hard lock unlike against BU(r)G Delver, and they don't have problem non-creature permanents like Lilis, which show up occasionally in the decks running black.

[Lormador]

I disagree, and consider the RUG Delver deck to be more difficult than the other tempo decks to deal with because of Stifle on my miracle spells and Nimble Mongoose. While it's true that they won't be breaking up my Counterbalance with a timely Abrupt Decay or dropping scary black permanents, I find the regular green or colorless permanents like Sylvan Library and Null Rod to be pretty strong.

Regardless, all of the Delver decks are strong and commonly played, and although RUG may or may not be on a downswing in some general sense, it's alive and well in my meta. BUG Delver doesn't like RIP much, either, because apparently Squire isn't too good in Legacy. Getting a few percentage points against these deck with Rest In Peace MD is a boon that the Helm decks offer.

[twndomn]

RUG Delver is the most favorable out of all the flavors IMO (like 60/40 or better). The games we lose are close, but the games we win are blowouts. Playing around Stifle is easy, CB is an actual hard lock unlike against BU(r)G Delver, and they don't have problem non-creature permanents like Lilis, which show up occasionally in the decks running black.

Disagree. I don't need to repeat and go around in circle, I'll just quote, and I believe the discussion on that MU pretty much ends there.


Taken alone that seems like trolling, even though I know it isn't. How do you not care about mana denial against RUG delver? It's practically the most important thing in the matchup. I would say the majority of the games Miracles loses to RUG involve Stifle/Wasteland in combination with taxing counters.

[cavalrywolfpack]

What's your meta like?

I personally think the red splash is necessary. You can just add a basic mountain and a Steam vents, and you're okay with the red splash.

Red blast is arguably our most important sideboard card. You simply need them in so many matchups.
My meta (from what I know of) is 1 MUD (only seen him playing once. Sorry if this isn't a Legacy deck. I know it's in Vintage, I just saw artifacts, and Lodestone Golem and thought MUD.), 1 Eldrazi, 1 Infect, and 1 GB Reanimator (although the mainboard plays like Mono Black). This is what I've seen from people playing between rounds at FNM.

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[Whitefaces]

I'll third these feeling on the RUG Delver matchup. It's foolish to underestimate it.

[mort-]

My meta (from what I know of) is 1 MUD (only seen him playing once. Sorry if this isn't a Legacy deck. I know it's in Vintage, I just saw artifacts, and Lodestone Golem and thought MUD.), 1 Eldrazi, 1 Infect, and 1 GB Reanimator (although the mainboard plays like Mono Black). This is what I've seen from people playing between rounds at FNM.

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Well, I'd still suggest the red splash, as Wear / Tear and Blood Moon, as well as Keranos are killers in those matchups. And MUD is a Legacy deck. It's pretty fringe and unstable at times, but it is a deck. Like it was said, you should be able to do it with a basic Mountain + Steam Vents.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Thanks guys! I think I'll start with one of LSV's lists and go from there.

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[CutthroatCasual]

Disagree. I don't need to repeat and go around in circle, I'll just quote, and I believe the discussion on that MU pretty much ends there.

That may be true for Joe's list since he is/was relying more on Karakas and Cavern. I always fetch basics first (as you should be doing unless you really need the Tundra) so that shuts off Wasteland.

[Quasim0ff]

Thanks guys! I think I'll start with one of LSV's lists and go from there.

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I actually don't think that's the best approach.

I'd highly suggest you pick one of the successful lists from here, as these lists are generally much more refined (and tested) than LSV's lists, no matter how good LSV is as a player. :D

RUG is, imo, a harder matchup than stuff life BUG and Grixis delver, due to mongoose. It is also the matchup that can lead to the most blowouts, as cb+top is actually a hardlock against them, compared to the two other variants. I found that you usually stabilise at around 5-6 life, if you end up winning.

[cavalrywolfpack]

I actually don't think that's the best approach.

I'd highly suggest you pick one of the successful lists from here, as these lists are generally much more refined (and tested) than LSV's lists, no matter how good LSV is as a player. :D

RUG is, imo, a harder matchup than stuff life BUG and Grixis delver, due to mongoose. It is also the matchup that can lead to the most blowouts, as cb+top is actually a hardlock against them, compared to the two other variants. I found that you usually stabilise at around 5-6 life, if you end up winning.
In that case, does anybody mind posting their lists?

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[prepare4robots]

In that case, does anybody mind posting their lists?

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This is a recent list that is a good place to start for a 4 Ponder build in my opinion. Some of the sideboard choices are metagamed, but you can update this as you go.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100741

Edit: This is another one that was linked to a few pages back that might not be a bad place to start:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-16-QNS-miracles/

[cavalrywolfpack]

Thank you! I'll be sure to tinker with one of these!

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[anakyn]

That may be true for Joe's list since he is/was relying more on Karakas and Cavern. I always fetch basics first (as you should be doing unless you really need the Tundra) so that shuts off Wasteland.

I don't get how you can consider RUG Delver like the most favorable of the Delver matchups for Ponder Miracles.
IMHO it's by far the most difficult, like 50-50.

The most favorable seems to be Grixis, which doesn't play Decay, Stifle or shroud creatures. It's true they have Cabal Therapy, but they can't do anything after you assemble Top/CB and resolve a single Terminus.
Then comes BUG Delver, which has Decay and Tourach, but is particularly weak against Jace and obviously Terminus.
I don't really know which is easier between Grixis and BUG, but I'd say they are both 55-45 or maybe better.

RUG Delver, on the other hand, plays both Mangoose and Stifle, which are probably the best cards a Delver deck can play against Miracles.
From the sideboard they bring in Pyroblast and Library, so I guess games 2&3 are even tougher than game 1.
RUG Delver just has all the weapons both BUG and Grixis have, all in one deck. It just misses Decay, which I admit is a huge minus, but on the other hand it's so aggressive that it isn't really that easy to assemble the "combo" before you're already dead.


If your experience tells you RUG Delver is the easiest of the Delver decks, maybe you just played vs poor RUG Delver pilots.

[potatodavid]

This Post is 100% fluff.

I am going to be playing some Miracles for the first time really ever tonight. I full expect to go 0-4 but have fun doing so. Can't wait to top all night.

[prepare4robots]

This Post is 100% fluff.

I am going to be playing some Miracles for the first time really ever tonight. I full expect to go 0-4 but have fun doing so. Can't wait to top all night.

Good luck!

[cavalrywolfpack]

Did some testing against Eldrazi yesterday. That matchup is absolutely terrible for us. 4 MB Cavern of Souls and MB Chalices make most of our deck really dead. Any advice for this matchup?

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[Quasim0ff]

Did some testing against Eldrazi yesterday. That matchup is absolutely terrible for us. 4 MB Cavern of Souls and MB Chalices make most of our deck really dead. Any advice for this matchup?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Matchup is unfavored, but not insanely so.

It's close to MUD, just about a turn quicker. Terminus is excellent, as well is Jace. EtA are superior compared to mentor in the matchup.

[Minniehajj]

Hey all, haven't posted on here in a while but BBD took my miracles list through a CFB video. The list was worked on by people that we mentioned earlier and he really liked the decklist for sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjmsaVrPtsc

[Quasim0ff]

Hey all, haven't posted on here in a while but BBD took my miracles list through a CFB video. The list was worked on by people that we mentioned earlier and he really liked the decklist for sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjmsaVrPtsc

Liked the list, disliked his play with it :D

[Minniehajj]

Liked the list, disliked his play with it :D

Yeah he definitely made a few incorrect decisions rounds one and two, round one mostly due to being pressed heavily on time and round 2, if Land grant wasn't bugged on mtgo, I think his play would have been FAR superior because he'd be able to make much more informed decisions.

[Quasim0ff]

Yeah he definitely made a few incorrect decisions rounds one and two, round one mostly due to being pressed heavily on time and round 2, if Land grant wasn't bugged on mtgo, I think his play would have been FAR superior because he'd be able to make much more informed decisions.

I agree, it was mainly the "Lose to Blighted Agent with Spell Snare on top" :)

Yeah, Land Grant is pretty busted on modo. Impressive it still is, I saw this bug about 3 months ago.

[potatodavid]

Expected to go full 0-4 last night.

Ended up going 3-1 on my first time playing the deck.


Beat: Slivers, Miracles Mirror, & Eldrazi

Loss: Post MUD.

What I've learned:

-There is so much silly shit you can do with this deck that is just ridiculous, no wonder people get called for slow play so often.
- Moat is Really good against eldrazi
- Mentor is insanely good in my meta.
- Ugin is a card.

[MiraclesWizard]

Deck list?



Expected to go full 0-4 last night.

Ended up going 3-1 on my first time playing the deck.


Beat: Slivers, Miracles Mirror, & Eldrazi

Loss: Post MUD.

What I've learned:

-There is so much silly shit you can do with this deck that is just ridiculous, no wonder people get called for slow play so often.
- Moat is Really good against eldrazi
- Mentor is insanely good in my meta.
- Ugin is a card.

[potatodavid]

Deck list?

Preface this with 3 statements:
1. I don't know what I'm doing
2. I'm at work so I'll get a proper decklist later
3. I will probably forget to do #2.

Meat:
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Mentor
1x V.Clique

Potatoes:

4x Terminus
4x STP
4x Top
4x CB
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Jace the Mindsculptor
1x Entreat
2x Counter Spell
4x FOW

Lands:
4x Islands
2x Plains
4x Tarn
3x Strand
2x Volcanic
4x Tundra
2x Arid Mesa

SB

2x Canonist
1x Izzet flash haste pingy guy (thing to kill all the pyromancer tokens)
1x Containment Priest
1x Moat
2x Wear//Tear
2x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
1x REB

Some Deck choices:

2x JTMS vs 3. I only own the 2. I will probably save and get a 3rd.

No Councils Judgement. I ordered one but its in the Mail

3 Mentors Seems like too many: Well My plan was 2, but the shop only had 1 Entreat so... I added a 3rd mentor, I also figured I'm short a jace so why not.

[CutthroatCasual]

2 v 3 Jace is a question of how much you lean on him as a win-con and not just a 4-mana Brainstorm. I personally play 2 because he's clunky in your opener and I'm more reliant on ETA/creature beats to win me my games.

Since making the cut from 3 to 2 I haven't looked back.

[Echinoderm]

2 v 3 Jace is a question of how much you lean on him as a win-con and not just a 4-mana Brainstorm. I personally play 2 because he's clunky in your opener and I'm more reliant on ETA/creature beats to win me my games.

Since making the cut from 3 to 2 I haven't looked back.

Am I allowed to run only two JTMS if I have three Worldwake foils?

[CutthroatCasual]

3rd one relegated to SB.

[oarsman]

Finished 10th in the classic yesterday on tiebreakers with my normal list. Would likely have made top 8 but actually threw away a match I had won. While GerryT was playing his invitational top 8 (which would determine my PC fate) I wasn't paying much attention to my own match. I countered a daze with four land untapped. This directly resulted in my not winning.
So basically I followed up a devastating end of season 1 by comically screwing up the start of season 2.

[Svyelunite]

Finished 10th in the classic yesterday on tiebreakers with my normal list. Would likely have made top 8 but actually threw away a match I had won. While GerryT was playing his invitational top 8 (which would determine my PC fate) I wasn't paying much attention to my own match. I countered a daze with four land untapped. This directly resulted in my not winning.
So basically I followed up a devastating end of season 1 by comically screwing up the start of season 2.

Tough beats dude. I saw the standings today, total bummer. Get it back together and get ready for next season!

[Reagens]

Finished 10th in the classic yesterday on tiebreakers with my normal list. Would likely have made top 8 but actually threw away a match I had won. While GerryT was playing his invitational top 8 (which would determine my PC fate) I wasn't paying much attention to my own match. I countered a daze with four land untapped. This directly resulted in my not winning.
So basically I followed up a devastating end of season 1 by comically screwing up the start of season 2.

Congratulations on the performance anyway.
Not having mentor in the 75 is a definitive thing or is it still competing for a slot? Why/why not?

[Quasim0ff]

I'm currently playing a 2 predict, 20 land Miracles list with 2 spell snare and 1 counterspell, (9 fetches, 4 duals, 7 basics, one being a mountain).

My sideboard consists of zero Blood moon, Back to Basics, Moat or anything like that. 2 Stoneforge and 1 batterskull.

Went 4-1-1 today (unintentional draw).

Beat Barook Eldrazi 2-1, round 1.

Game one was not really close, He drew tons of gas as well as mana to eventually activate Eye of Ugin. Game two and three I stabilized on the back of Stoneforge -> Batterskull, on 2 and 3 life respectively.

-4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgment.

Drew with Esper Thing in the Ice. Game one he therapied two balances, forces a third and me seeing the fourth in the top 20 cards. He conceded with a 1 and two on top and CSpell on his mentor.
Game two and three I saw nothing of relevance at all. Game three, I would likely have won given enough time, due to Stoneforge + Batterskull coming up on his board of 2 Strixes.

-2 Force of Will, -2 Terminus, -2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +2 Red Elemtal Blast, +1 Izzet Staticaster.

Lost 0-2 to storm.
Game 1, on the draw: He goes turn 1 preordain, I go turn 1 land go - He goes Duress take your Snare, D.Rit x2 + LED + Ad Nauseum from 20.
Saw NOTHING in game two. He had a Notion Thieve, because he's a dirty person, when I could have found something on my hail marry brainstorm.

-2 Swords to Plowshares, -3 Terminus, -2 Entreat the Angels, -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Plains, +2 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Izzet Staticaster

Won 2-0 against lands.
He made a turn 4 20/20, which hit me once (going to two, from 2x Grove life gains). I had a turn 2 balance, turn 5 Jace, bouncing his 20/20.
Won the game with angels eventually.
Same in game two. Jace was excellent, but he was on straight RG Lands, so no Decay and Vortex, which was pretty good for me.

Don't remember what I cut here, but something like -1 Ponder, -1 Counterspell, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical I think. Not entirely sure.

Won 2-0 against Elves.
Game one I terminus'd his first batch, played a balance, terminus'd again and he conceded.
Game two I had stoneforge into batterskull. He ended up on 4 life, decaying my token (to survive). On his EoT I bounced Batterskull, Activated stoneforge, where I held priority and terminus'd away all his dudes and me with a batterskull.

-2 Force of Will, -2 Jace, -2 EtA, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +1 Containment Priest.

Won 2-0 against DnT.

Game one I just sword's, Snapcastered and Terminus'd away until I could eventually entreat at his EoT. Two turns later and he was dead.
Game two was pretty much the same. He was new to the deck, and took foreeeeeeeeeever.

-4 Counterbalance, -2 Force of Will, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Containment Priest.

[Minniehajj]

I'm currently playing a 2 predict, 20 land Miracles list with 2 spell snare and 1 counterspell, (9 fetches, 4 duals, 7 basics, one being a mountain).

My sideboard consists of zero Blood moon, Back to Basics, Moat or anything like that. 2 Stoneforge and 1 batterskull.

Went 4-1-1 today (unintentional draw).

Beat Barook Eldrazi 2-1, round 1.

Game one was not really close, He drew tons of gas as well as mana to eventually activate Eye of Ugin. Game two and three I stabilized on the back of Stoneforge -> Batterskull, on 2 and 3 life respectively.

-4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgment.

Drew with Esper Thing in the Ice. Game one he therapied two balances, forces a third and me seeing the fourth in the top 20 cards. He conceded with a 1 and two on top and CSpell on his mentor.
Game two and three I saw nothing of relevance at all. Game three, I would likely have won given enough time, due to Stoneforge + Batterskull coming up on his board of 2 Strixes.

-2 Force of Will, -2 Terminus, -2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +2 Red Elemtal Blast, +1 Izzet Staticaster.

Lost 0-2 to storm.
Game 1, on the draw: He goes turn 1 preordain, I go turn 1 land go - He goes Duress take your Snare, D.Rit x2 + LED + Ad Nauseum from 20.
Saw NOTHING in game two. He had a Notion Thieve, because he's a dirty person, when I could have found something on my hail marry brainstorm.

-2 Swords to Plowshares, -3 Terminus, -2 Entreat the Angels, -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Plains, +2 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Izzet Staticaster

Won 2-0 against lands.
He made a turn 4 20/20, which hit me once (going to two, from 2x Grove life gains). I had a turn 2 balance, turn 5 Jace, bouncing his 20/20.
Won the game with angels eventually.
Same in game two. Jace was excellent, but he was on straight RG Lands, so no Decay and Vortex, which was pretty good for me.

Don't remember what I cut here, but something like -1 Ponder, -1 Counterspell, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical I think. Not entirely sure.

Won 2-0 against Elves.
Game one I terminus'd his first batch, played a balance, terminus'd again and he conceded.
Game two I had stoneforge into batterskull. He ended up on 4 life, decaying my token (to survive). On his EoT I bounced Batterskull, Activated stoneforge, where I held priority and terminus'd away all his dudes and me with a batterskull.

-2 Force of Will, -2 Jace, -2 EtA, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +1 Containment Priest.

Won 2-0 against DnT.

Game one I just sword's, Snapcastered and Terminus'd away until I could eventually entreat at his EoT. Two turns later and he was dead.
Game two was pretty much the same. He was new to the deck, and took foreeeeeeeeeever.

-4 Counterbalance, -2 Force of Will, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Containment Priest.

Great to hear! Would love to see your list. 20 land makes me happy and I'd love to have a reason to try it again

[Echinoderm]

I'm currently playing a 2 predict, 20 land Miracles list with 2 spell snare and 1 counterspell, (9 fetches, 4 duals, 7 basics, one being a mountain).

My sideboard consists of zero Blood moon, Back to Basics, Moat or anything like that. 2 Stoneforge and 1 batterskull.

Went 4-1-1 today (unintentional draw).

Beat Barook Eldrazi 2-1, round 1.

Game one was not really close, He drew tons of gas as well as mana to eventually activate Eye of Ugin. Game two and three I stabilized on the back of Stoneforge -> Batterskull, on 2 and 3 life respectively.

-4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgment.

Drew with Esper Thing in the Ice. Game one he therapied two balances, forces a third and me seeing the fourth in the top 20 cards. He conceded with a 1 and two on top and CSpell on his mentor.
Game two and three I saw nothing of relevance at all. Game three, I would likely have won given enough time, due to Stoneforge + Batterskull coming up on his board of 2 Strixes.

-2 Force of Will, -2 Terminus, -2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +2 Red Elemtal Blast, +1 Izzet Staticaster.

Lost 0-2 to storm.
Game 1, on the draw: He goes turn 1 preordain, I go turn 1 land go - He goes Duress take your Snare, D.Rit x2 + LED + Ad Nauseum from 20.
Saw NOTHING in game two. He had a Notion Thieve, because he's a dirty person, when I could have found something on my hail marry brainstorm.

-2 Swords to Plowshares, -3 Terminus, -2 Entreat the Angels, -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Plains, +2 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Izzet Staticaster

Won 2-0 against lands.
He made a turn 4 20/20, which hit me once (going to two, from 2x Grove life gains). I had a turn 2 balance, turn 5 Jace, bouncing his 20/20.
Won the game with angels eventually.
Same in game two. Jace was excellent, but he was on straight RG Lands, so no Decay and Vortex, which was pretty good for me.

Don't remember what I cut here, but something like -1 Ponder, -1 Counterspell, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical I think. Not entirely sure.

Won 2-0 against Elves.
Game one I terminus'd his first batch, played a balance, terminus'd again and he conceded.
Game two I had stoneforge into batterskull. He ended up on 4 life, decaying my token (to survive). On his EoT I bounced Batterskull, Activated stoneforge, where I held priority and terminus'd away all his dudes and me with a batterskull.

-2 Force of Will, -2 Jace, -2 EtA, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +1 Containment Priest.

Won 2-0 against DnT.

Game one I just sword's, Snapcastered and Terminus'd away until I could eventually entreat at his EoT. Two turns later and he was dead.
Game two was pretty much the same. He was new to the deck, and took foreeeeeeeeeever.

-4 Counterbalance, -2 Force of Will, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Containment Priest.

Congratulations! I have a question, if you don't mind.

So you sided two force of will out against DnT and you left the spell snares, but I've been leaving in all four forces vs DnT. Do you really think that Spell Snare or even the counterspell is better than the force? I feel like I never have mana to cast counterspell and Spell snare feels a bit limited vs a lot of the cards which I really do want to counter (Cataclysm, Aether Vial, Council's judgment, even opposing stp). I'd really like to hear your take on this. :)

[Quasim0ff]

My current list (I think you will recognize most of Minni ;) ):

4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
3x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain

3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Entreat the Angels

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Predict

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus

4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell

Sideboard:
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Wear//Tear
1x Council's Judgement
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Containment Priest
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique

I do, actually, want to find room for a Keranos, Gott der Stürme. I just don't want to cut anything; If I wanted it, however, I would probably cut the Stoneforge + Batterskull, and play a Blood Moon, The Keranos as well as a Moat.

I think, my rationale with boarding like I did against the DnT, was that I wasn't super frightened about his Cataclysm; I wanted Spell Snare for potential Warping Veils, as well as wanting intercation for his (potential) turn 2 Thalia/Stoneforge/Revoker. If he didn't do anything for the first 3 turns (turn 1 vial, turn 2 port me, turn 3 port + x, EoT two-drop), I would already feel super much ahead.

Council's Judgement is a do nothing, I feel like. You board all you Counterbalances, anyhow, and if you play Jace uncontested, on an empty board, you are very far ahead, even if he eventually Judgements it. Swords is an absolute do-nothing. I don't play Mentor, as yeah... There's that.

I might actually have boarded -2 Predict, +2 Force of Will if I had enough time to think about it, but I was 3-1-1 before the round, and game 1 took 30 of our 45 minutes (with him being incredibly slow, it was, as mentioned, the first time on DnT and he actually had to read several of his own cards... Plus thinking for +20 at all my EoT, because he was thinking about vial.) I just had to quickly board, at that time it actually made sense to board like that; He went turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Thalia which got snared.

My plan was to stabilize, which I did, and then just find either Entreat for EoT or Jace + Force. I found EtA, and killed him on my turn after 6 angel came anruf'd.

Game wasn't really close, and I wasn't in any danger at any points.

*Æther Vial: I think like this one is much less scary in game two. The thing about it, is that you are getting ported/wasted as well as it dodging Balance. Balance is garbage in the matchup anyhow; Most people also play a non-zero amount of Caverns. I actually think he matchup is slightly favoured after board, with the Stoneforge Plan.

[ozimek]

Congratulations on the performance anyway.
Not having mentor in the 75 is a definitive thing or is it still competing for a slot? Why/why not?

Also, there is some tension between SB Mentor and Moat. In the match-ups where you want Mentor's chump blocking capabilities, you would typically be looking to bring in Moat as well. Of course one could argue, that in those match-ups you don't mind having multiple "solutions". Especially as Moat is only a one-off.

Playing a large tournament this weekend, and am on the fence with my 2 SB Mentors, as I just invested in a Moat. Running a list with:
21 Lands
3-Ponder
1 Clique
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat
1 Snare / Pierce
1 Council's Judgement
x Stock

Any input on the SB would be much appreciated. Currently I'm at:

2 Wear // Tear [Non-negotiable]

1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast [could be reduced to 1? Would weaken the mirror]

1 Izzet Staticaster [Pretty sure it's worth a slot]
1 Flusterstorm [Not sure 1 is enough]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [Swap for one additional Flusterstorm? Like the beat-down element though]

1 Blood Moon [Would like to increase to 2, or try B2B]

[Anti GY/combo package. Pretty flexible. Might swap surgical for an extra RiP?]
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest

Anti-beatdown
2 Monastery Mentor [Also tempo increase vs decks with inevitability!]
1 Moat

A few random notes:
Expecting a fairly competitive field, but with some random brews as well.
I'm on the "overload Abrupt Decay" strategy rather than "blank it".
Fitting a Pithing Needle vs. random stuff would be nice.

[Lormador]

I managed to get in a fair number of pre-board test games using RIP-Helm Miracles against DnT and BUG Delver, and these are the results I found. This is in case anyone is still curious about the MU differences between this weird version of the deck and the more standard 4 Ponder / 3 Snapcaster variant. All the games we played were preboard.

In my deck, I run a preboard Blood Moon instead of the usual Detention Sphere. I'm sure this will hurt me someday, but today was not that day.

DnT: Going into this I thought the matchup would be awful for me, but happily I turned out to be dead wrong. The extra land in the RIP/Helm helps out a lot, and I only got mana screwed in one test game in which I'd kept a fairly shaky grip in the first place. The DnT player just couldn't manage to stop the Helm combo despite running 3 Revokers and 3 Flickerwisps. I had to use various means to kill the Revokers here and there, from ambushing them with Vendilion Clique to investing a pair of StP on one of them. There was really just too much stuff for his Revokers to do, naming Top and Jace and then Helm on top of everything makes Terminus a very pleasant feeling.

In the closest game, I managed to stabilize at 1 life behind an Energy Field with only a Blood Moon turning off his Wastelands. I found Rest In Peace before he found Flickerwisp, and that was that.

Maybe we made mistakes, but it certainly seemed like the matchup was fairly one-sided. I was 5-1 when the other player had to leave.

BUG Delver: The guy was playing an older style of build, with Hymn to Tourach, Liliana, and Tombstalker. This time, I didn't feel as good as I used to playing 4 Ponder. Blood Moon would have stolen a game if I weren't a complete idiot (sacrificing it to a Liliana ultimate was a lapse in judgment of the type that occurs after 10 straight games in a hot room: I could have won with that card alone, and should have done so). Top, Terminus, Counterbalance, JTMS stole another one.

The trouble here was that RIP/Helm doesn't run 4 StPs and doesn't flash them back, and although RIP can be powerful, it is also quite fragile against the Abrupt Decay deck. Once various enchantments got countered or destroyed, they grew the Goyfs like crazy, and Liliana of the Veil was a big problem.

[caprino]

Today i play Vs big eldrazi deck (ulamog, kozilek ecc..) i lose 0 2..matchup is very hard

[MiraclesWizard]

Today i play Vs big eldrazi deck (ulamog, kozilek ecc..) i lose 0 2..matchup is very hard

whats your deck list and what do you sb in vs Eldrazi?

[caprino]

whats your deck list and what do you sb in vs Eldrazi?

Side Vs eldrazi is moon moat ecc..my opponent play grim monolith, dinamo thran voltaic key ecc.. Eye of ugin... Matchup is very difficult

[Echinoderm]

Side Vs eldrazi is moon moat ecc..my opponent play grim monolith, dinamo thran voltaic key ecc.. Eye of ugin... Matchup is very difficult

Voltaic key, huh? Pretty sure that's banned in Legacy. :P

Disregard this false information.^

[CutthroatCasual]

Is not.

[Echinoderm]

Is not.

I just realized how mistaken I was. But how couldn't it be? I'm a little hazy on this to be honest. I haven't seen anyone play it in years and years.

[Quasim0ff]

I just realized how mistaken I was. But how couldn't it be? I'm a little hazy on this to be honest. I haven't seen anyone play it in years and years.

Why would you?

It's an artifact that untaps another artifact for a C.

[Echinoderm]

Why would you?

It's an artifact that untaps another artifact for a C.


Just seems like a very good card with metal worker and monolith, that's all. I suppose I'm just ignorant of this. ^D^

[twndomn]

Today i play Vs big eldrazi deck (ulamog, kozilek ecc..) i lose 0 2..matchup is very hard

Typically, when we say Eldrazi, we meant Eldrazi aggro. As in, it uses Thought-knot and Reality Smasher.

The opponent your ran into is Colorless Eldrazi Ramp. It's more like MUD, and it's uncommon. It uses Key and Thran dynamo to ramp up to cast the New Kozelik, the Great Distortion, which would enable him to draw more Eldrazi. To be honest, this build is much closer toward the UG 12 Post, so I would just let it go.

[ESG]

Voltaic key, huh? Pretty sure that's banned in Legacy. :P


I haven't seen anyone play it in years and years.

...

Join Date:
Apr 2016


Welcome to Legacy, where Voltaic Key is not as good as it seems.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's bad with Metalworker and Monolith b/c of Chalice of the Void. It's also bad because pithing needle and Revoker. Also, Time Vault is why it's good, and its banned from Legacy.

[alphastryk]

Played a Predict list in a local GPT for Columbus yesterday, felt really solid. Went 3-1-1 (Beat Merfolk, lost to Sneak&Show, Beat UW Thopter Control, beat RUG Control, drew with Elves, then lost to MUD in top8).

I've been having consistent trouble with Sneak and Show lately, and I'm wondering if that's just an inherent weakness of the cantrip-heavy builds, or if I'm doing something wrong? (Low sample size too, I could just be getting unlucky)

List for reference:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear

Boarding looked something like: -1 Plains, -4 Terminus, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Spell Snare | +2 Vendilion Clique, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Containment Priest, +1 Council's Judgment.

Should I be bringing in the Stoneforge Package to have an early threat? I have more cards I want to take out than stuff to bring in which is a red flag to me.

[CutthroatCasual]

I think cantrip-heavy builds definitely are weaker against SnT decks.

As a hedge, I play 1 Clique and 1 Karakas main, in addition to Spell Pierce which often hits what I want it to hit.

I don't think SnS cares that you have an SFM/Bskull since they only need to worry about 1 threat sticking. If you're finding you're taking out more, then leave in some number of Terminus just in case you find yourself in a situation where you can make sure it resolves (i.e. They SnT through a Boseiju so your FoW is still sitting in your hand.)

What is CJ for?

[alphastryk]

I think cantrip-heavy builds definitely are weaker against SnT decks.

As a hedge, I play 1 Clique and 1 Karakas main, in addition to Spell Pierce which often hits what I want it to hit.

I don't think SnS cares that you have an SFM/Bskull since they only need to worry about 1 threat sticking. If you're finding you're taking out more, then leave in some number of Terminus just in case you find yourself in a situation where you can make sure it resolves (i.e. They SnT through a Boseiju so your FoW is still sitting in your hand.)

What is CJ for?

Yeah, that all makes sense. I'll probably have to make some tweaks if people keep playing SnT locally.

CJ is for the same reason you're suggesting leaving in Terminus, with the upside of being a 3 for Counterbalance. It's not great, but I don't have anything better.

[CutthroatCasual]

Wear//Tear seems good against that :3::r: enchantment. And they might even bring in Pithing Needle to name Karakas/Top/whatever.

[Echinoderm]

Yeah, that all makes sense. I'll probably have to make some tweaks if people keep playing SnT locally.

CJ is for the same reason you're suggesting leaving in Terminus, with the upside of being a 3 for Counterbalance. It's not great, but I don't have anything better.

Some people board out Entreat. Council's judgment is also decent, considering some list play Pithing Needle, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Omniscience against you games 2 and 3. Doesn't hurt that it hits sneak and show, either.

[twndomn]

I've been having consistent trouble with Sneak and Show lately, and I'm wondering if that's just an inherent weakness of the cantrip-heavy builds, or if I'm doing something wrong? (Low sample size too, I could just be getting unlucky)



The real SB hate-bear against combo in general is Not Containment priest, it's Canonist.

Instead of focusing on cantrip-heavy builds, the difference is Karakas and Clique. It's not just Show and Tell decks, has impact against Reanimator and Storm as well. Narrow in on Sneak and Show MU, they cannot win outright if you have both Karakas + needle in play. They have to deal with either permanents via Blood Moon or Wipe Away first. Yes, we want as much interaction on the stack as possible, Entreat is useless in most scenarios, other than flipping it against Show and Tell when you already have CB in play.

Here is a small corner case: Supreme Verdict. It's another CMC 4 card you can flip via CB against Sneak Attack. In the case your opponent manages to get one fatty into play Not via Sneak Attack, Verdict can buy you turns regardless they draw 7 or not.

[alphastryk]

The real SB hate-bear against combo in general is Not Containment priest, it's Canonist.

Instead of focusing on cantrip-heavy builds, the difference is Karakas and Clique. It's not just Show and Tell decks, has impact against Reanimator and Storm as well. Narrow in on Sneak and Show MU, they cannot win outright if you have both Karakas + needle in play. They have to deal with either permanents via Blood Moon or Wipe Away first. Yes, we want as much interaction on the stack as possible, Entreat is useless in most scenarios, other than flipping it against Show and Tell when you already have CB in play.

Here is a small corner case: Supreme Verdict. It's another CMC 4 card you can flip via CB against Sneak Attack. In the case your opponent manages to get one fatty into play Not via Sneak Attack, Verdict can buy you turns regardless they draw 7 or not.

Canonist and Verdict are fine cards, but not super helpful for Sneak and Show in particular. Personally I'm still a huge fan of Meddling Mage vs combo, I just have trouble finding room for all the sideboard cards I want, which is a general issue of the cantrip-heavy builds that have pushed Clique into those sideboard slots instead of the maindeck. The right 'middle ground' answer is probably to cut Predict to move the Cliques main, then add appropriate hatebears to the 2 new sideboard slots. I just don't want to get too hungup on beating my local store's ~25 person metagame, I'd rather have a list that's ready for a bigger field so I'm comfortable with my choices before the GP in June, considering I only get to play once or twice a month these days.

[Quasim0ff]

Canonist and Verdict are fine cards, but not super helpful for Sneak and Show in particular. Personally I'm still a huge fan of Meddling Mage vs combo, I just have trouble finding room for all the sideboard cards I want, which is a general issue of the cantrip-heavy builds that have pushed Clique into those sideboard slots instead of the maindeck. The right 'middle ground' answer is probably to cut Predict to move the Cliques main, then add appropriate hatebears to the 2 new sideboard slots. I just don't want to get too hungup on beating my local store's ~25 person metagame, I'd rather have a list that's ready for a bigger field so I'm comfortable with my choices before the GP in June, considering I only get to play once or twice a month these days.

A sideboard that beats up on combo, while maintaining the cantrip heavy maindeck:
1 Clique maindeck.

Sideboard:
3x ReB/Pyro
2x Flusterstorm
2x Wear/Tear
2x Clique (3 in total)
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Containment Priest
1x Engineered Explosves
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Blood Moon.

That sideboard is excellent.

[MiraclesWizard]

anyone see Joe Lossett's stream last night with Legends Miracles....he tossed in 2 Nahiri's and -1 Jace and -1 Council's Judgement.....thoughts? It was interesting

[kentheide]

anyone see Joe Lossett's stream last night with Legends Miracles....he tossed in 2 Nahiri's and -1 Jace and -1 Council's Judgement.....thoughts? It was interesting

Post-sideboard or main?

[CutthroatCasual]

Which Nahiri? If the :2::r::w: one, that just's silly since that card doesn't synergize with anything in the deck.

If the :3::w::w: one, well a good Legacy player once told me that our non-land permanents should be able to win us the game. I don't see how she does that more effectively than Jace. That Nahiri is better suited to a Blade-style deck. Now, some SBs like to play the Blade package, so she would likely do better in those builds. But I don't recall seeing the Blade package in Joe's most recent list.

CJ is a flex card, though one that I would rather have somewhere in the 75 than not.

[MiraclesWizard]

Which Nahiri? If the :2::r::w: one, that just's silly since that card doesn't synergize with anything in the deck.

If the :3::w::w: one, well a good Legacy player once told me that our non-land permanents should be able to win us the game. I don't see how she does that more effectively than Jace. CJ is a flex card, though one that I would rather have somewhere in the 75 than not.

it was the :2::r::w: :eek::eek:

[Wotkenmendo]

I missed it, but the replay is still unmuted if you go to his twitch stream!

Edit: I would also assume it was mostly for fun.

[MiraclesWizard]

I missed it, but the replay is still unmuted if you go to his twitch stream!

Edit: I would also assume it was mostly for fun.

i know he was trying to get rid of council's judgement to avoid double plains in the mb and go back to a double cavern and mentor setup.

[Stefanogs]

Maybe he's testing a planeswalker that is immune to REB effets (nahiri). However, i think that Keranos is a better option with Cavern of Souls.

[venice]

I did not watch the stream either but a friend of mine is testing 1 Nahiri, 1 Emrakul as new "tech". Tick her up 2 times, go fetch Emrakul and smash with haste. Not that I think that this is good but maybe Joe was experimenting with something similar.

[MiraclesWizard]

i think he was goofing around, but still interesting to say the least....

[Jaytron]

Played a Predict list in a local GPT for Columbus yesterday, felt really solid. Went 3-1-1 (Beat Merfolk, lost to Sneak&Show, Beat UW Thopter Control, beat RUG Control, drew with Elves, then lost to MUD in top8).

I've been having consistent trouble with Sneak and Show lately, and I'm wondering if that's just an inherent weakness of the cantrip-heavy builds, or if I'm doing something wrong? (Low sample size too, I could just be getting unlucky)

List for reference:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear

Boarding looked something like: -1 Plains, -4 Terminus, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Spell Snare | +2 Vendilion Clique, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Containment Priest, +1 Council's Judgment.

Should I be bringing in the Stoneforge Package to have an early threat? I have more cards I want to take out than stuff to bring in which is a red flag to me.
What matchups does the SFM package come in against normally? I'm pretty new to the deck overall, primarily a Delver player looking to play some Tundras

[CutthroatCasual]

SFM/Bskull seems really good against Burn for starters. In other MUs though I don't see where that package would offer us anything that we were lacking. In other words, other MUs where the Stoneblade package is good are MUs that are in our favor already.

Incidentally, I'm having trouble against it. Here's my list:


4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Island
2x Plains
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Karakas
1x Arid Mesa

3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Council's Judgment
4x Terminus
3x Ponder
2x Entreat the Angels

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce

4x Sensei's Divining Top

SB:

1x Containment Priest
1x Moat
2x Monastery Mentor
1x Rest in Peace
2x Flusterstorm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
2x Wear // Tear

My plan was:

-1 Entreat the Angels
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Ponder

+1 Rest in Peace
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Wear // Tear

Would it be worth it to try and find things to cut to bring in the Mentors (probably 1 more Swords and 1 Terminus, going down to 1 and 3, respectively?) Seeing as Burn wins through a combination of both creatures and spells, if I can clog up the board with Mentor and Monks, I can focus my efforts on countering the spells.

[KZhang]

SFM/Bskull seems really good against Burn for starters. In other MUs though I don't see where that package would offer us anything that we were lacking. In other words, other MUs where the Stoneblade package is good are MUs that are in our favor already.

Incidentally, I'm having trouble against it. Here's my list:


4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Island
2x Plains
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Karakas
1x Arid Mesa

3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Council's Judgment
4x Terminus
3x Ponder
2x Entreat the Angels

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce

4x Sensei's Divining Top

SB:

1x Containment Priest
1x Moat
2x Monastery Mentor
1x Rest in Peace
2x Flusterstorm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
2x Wear // Tear

My plan was:

-1 Entreat the Angels
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Ponder

+1 Rest in Peace
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Wear // Tear

Would it be worth it to try and find things to cut to bring in the Mentors (probably 1 more Swords and 1 Terminus, going down to 1 and 3, respectively?) Seeing as Burn wins through a combination of both creatures and spells, if I can clog up the board with Mentor and Monks, I can focus my efforts on countering the spells.

Burn is not as good a MU as everyone says. Personally, i think it is at best 60/40.

On boarding, I personally nv cut STP against burn. it's a very useful source of emergency life gain. Consequently, i will not drop Snapcaster mages as well.

Based on your list, this is what i would do.

- 1 karakas
- 1 clique
- 1 Jace
- 1 terminus
- 1 entreat
- 1 council judgements (i think it's too slow, and opens you up to PoP too much) - hard not to cast this without fetching at least 1 tundra. especially when you are focused on UU early games)

+2 flusterstorm
+2 wear/tear
+2 mentor

[CutthroatCasual]

Should I still bring in a RIP because Exquisite Firecraft and Lavamancer?

[ESG]

Which Nahiri? If the :2::r::w: one, that just's silly since that card doesn't synergize with anything in the deck.


i think he was goofing around, but still interesting to say the least....

Of all people who would be joking around, Joe is not the person to come to mind. If he's playing in a real event, he probably thinks the card is well-positioned and wants to test its potency. He's among the most dominant Miracles players in the world.

[ozimek]

Burn is not as good a MU as everyone says. Personally, i think it is at best 60/40.

On boarding, I personally nv cut STP against burn. it's a very useful source of emergency life gain. Consequently, i will not drop Snapcaster mages as well.

Based on your list, this is what i would do.

- 1 karakas
- 1 clique
- 1 Jace
- 1 terminus
- 1 entreat
- 1 council judgements (i think it's too slow, and opens you up to PoP too much) - hard not to cast this without fetching at least 1 tundra. especially when you are focused on UU early games)

+2 flusterstorm
+2 wear/tear
+2 mentor

CutthroatCasual's list is so close to mine, that it's scary.

The SB plan above seems solid, but I disagree on a few details:

I would cut both Jaces, and keep 2 Entreats. They are the best way to stall their creatures, and the best source for creatures to swords if needed (beware of Sulfuric Vortex nerfing life gain!). Also, you don't need to worry about it being countered, so you can slam it ASAP.

I'm uncertain about the RiP. Cutting them off from Spell Mastery and fodder for Lavamancer is probably worth loosing the value from Snapcaster. Remember you don't have to play the RiP until the right moment. (I only play one Flusterstorm, so don't need to make space for two).

Keeping in all 4 Terminus is critical for two reasons:
1) Pain-free removal for Eidolon
2) CMC=6 for Fireblast

[MiraclesWizard]

Of all people who would be joking around, Joe is not the person to come to mind. If he's playing in a real event, he probably thinks the card is well-positioned and wants to test its potency. He's among the most dominant Miracles players in the world.

I know who Joe is...calm down. He has joked around many times with his deck testing stuff out while laughing ridiculously hard doing it.

[TheArchitect]

SFM/Bskull seems really good against Burn for starters. In other MUs though I don't see where that package would offer us anything that we were lacking. In other words, other MUs where the Stoneblade package is good are MUs that are in our favor already.

Incidentally, I'm having trouble against it. Here's my list:


4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Island
2x Plains
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Karakas
1x Arid Mesa

3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Council's Judgment
4x Terminus
3x Ponder
2x Entreat the Angels

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce

4x Sensei's Divining Top

SB:

1x Containment Priest
1x Moat
2x Monastery Mentor
1x Rest in Peace
2x Flusterstorm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
2x Wear // Tear

My plan was:

-1 Entreat the Angels
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Ponder

+1 Rest in Peace
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Wear // Tear

Would it be worth it to try and find things to cut to bring in the Mentors (probably 1 more Swords and 1 Terminus, going down to 1 and 3, respectively?) Seeing as Burn wins through a combination of both creatures and spells, if I can clog up the board with Mentor and Monks, I can focus my efforts on countering the spells.

Snapcaster, STP, and pierce some of the best cards in the matchup after counterbalance. Surgical extraction? What is the point of this? Let them resolve a free shock so you can reduce can exile one of their redundant spells? RIP is waaaay to narrow as well it basically turns off a small part of 4-6 cards in their deck.

You beat burn by perserving your lift total as much as possible, this will run them out of cards. 3 life basically equals 1 card. This is NOT like vs delver, where you use your lift total as resource and then stabilize and lock them out at late as possible.

This means if you have a flusterstorm or pierce, you cast in the first available target. If they attack you with a Swiftspear on turn 1 for 1 damage, you swords it. If they bolt your mentor, you swords it in response. This is basically the same as duressing them and hitting a bolt, a play anyone would call good. Other than that, the only real trick is playing around firecraft.

Based your board I would do this:
- 2 Jace
- 2 Terminus
- 1 CJ
- 1 Volc
- 1 Entreat
+1 Clique
+2 Fluster
+2 Wear/tear
+2 Mentor

If this deck loses to burn, its usually by turn 4-5. Jace, terminus and entreat are too slow and are win more in the matchup. If you get to a point where you can cast a jace/entreat without losing, probably any threat could win the game. Except a threat like clique can also provided early disruption, information and act as creature removal. Terminus costing 6 is not a reason to keep it in the deck.

Like others have said though, the matchup is not a bye. If played correctly by both players it is probably 60-40 in miracles favor.

[twndomn]

Based your board I would do this:
- 2 Jace
- 2 Terminus
- 1 CJ
- 1 Volc
- 1 Entreat
+1 Clique
+2 Fluster
+2 Wear/tear
+2 Mentor

If this deck loses to burn, its usually by turn 4-5. Jace, terminus and entreat are too slow and are win more in the matchup. If you get to a point where you can cast a jace/entreat without losing, probably any threat could win the game. Except a threat like clique can also provided early disruption, information and act as creature removal. Terminus costing 6 is not a reason to keep it in the deck.

Like others have said though, the matchup is not a bye. If played correctly by both players it is probably 60-40 in miracles favor.

You've made some good points. Long story short, it comes down to how willing the Burn player will keep or take out Searing cards. If he decides to keep it in, or add more from SB, then your decision of adding more creatures in Clique/Mentor will backfire unnecessarily.

Terminus is not just for the CB flipping against Fireblast. Terminus is Also another way to take care Guide and other creatures without taking Eidolon damage, like you wrote, every life point matters. Say the Burn player happens to resolve a Vortex, somehow. Entreat is the only realistic way of racing, hence I wouldn't take it out.

[AnziD]

going to attempt the 5th consecutive 5-0 in an hour or two @ twitch.tv/anzi104 !

[alphastryk]

going to attempt the 5th consecutive 5-0 in an hour or two @ twitch.tv/anzi104 !

If only I could watch these at work! I'll try to check it out later this week.

[KZhang]

Should I still bring in a RIP because Exquisite Firecraft and Lavamancer?

Personally, i won't. For RIP to be effective,
- i need to draw it
- they need to draw their Exquisite Firecraft
- i need to have a counterspell to be able to counter it.
- i risk making my SCM useless

I also would not want to keep too many miracle cards postboard. As TheArchitect mentioned, games often end by T4-T5. this places too much dependency on a BS if you happen to open with them, since you can't depend on Jace. And.. you might not draw a brainstorm.

[AnziD]

If only I could watch these at work! I'll try to check it out later this week.

Yeah unfortunately I got cremated lol went like 3-5 in matches dying to Painter, Eldrazi x2, Junk Walkers (Nahiri, Elspeth, Lili), and some other non blue deck

[CutthroatCasual]

Isn't Painter a good MU? I've never had major trouble against it.

[Whitefaces]

Isn't Painter a good MU? I've never had major trouble against it.

He lost a single match to it, doesn't mean it's any better or worse a matchup. Around 50/50 in my experience, I've lost to it a beaten it countless times.

[Quasim0ff]

Isn't Painter a good MU? I've never had major trouble against it.

it is very, very draw dependant.

[Minniehajj]

Isn't Painter a good MU? I've never had major trouble against it.

He actually had the game locked up, but the painter player had a very weird sideboard plan against him, multiple lightning bolts and sulfur elementals, as well as Ajani Vengeant. The match actually ended with triple bolt to the face, which is very atypical. The entire day was full of unluckyness, and it happens. There were a few mistakes made along the way due to receiving chat input. Streaming while playing miracles is a LOT harder than most people realize, and those who do it regularly deserve quite a bit of praise for being able to do so, like Joe, for example. He and I might differ in our philosophies, but he's a monster and I for sure recognize that.

Until yesterday, Anzi was 20-0 with his miracles list on MTGO leagues, consecutively, which is no small feat at all. It's actually extremely impressive. So the factors included here was some amount of bad luck, a few punts, and most of all, doing all this while also streaming. It's a pretty important distinction to make and understand, so don't pass it off.

That being said, I still recommend going through the VOD and watching it all anyway, you see the express power level that a Predict-focused build provides, even if there are some misplays along the way. I certainly enjoyed the stream :D

[AnziD]

Isn't Painter a good MU? I've never had major trouble against it.

It was a combination of a lot of things. G1 I think I threw? He resolved Ensnaring Bridge so the 1 JTMS was my out. I found it but then for some reason refused to cast it out of fear of blast, even though 3 were in the yard already. G2 was abnormal like Min said, utley's list was very hateful to Monastery Mentor which makes sense since the deck naturally suffers to the nonblue threats from the Miracles deck. An EE for 4 killed my CB that I double Force'd to get onto the board and the game kinda ended after that.

I'm wondering Flusterstorm is worth considering in this matchup
a) Only costs U, huge against Moon effects, which there may be 1 or 2 of lingering around postboard. I guess its not just U, since I'm also casting a blue spell that needs to be protected, so maybe I'd need like 3 Islands in play for it to be good?
b) Interacts with the most critical part of the game, ie the fight over Counterbalance

However... its Flusterstorm..................................................................... and my gut says that it just seems weird to have it vs the Sol Land deck. Dunno, might try it out at least once

[twndomn]

No, I don't think Flusterstorm is where the fight is.

Lossett did defeat a Painter deck at Players' Championship.
https://youtu.be/XVsbOsRbQmc

[phazonmutant]

I took third at CardKingdom's 1k tournament with Alphastryk's exact 75. List was sweet, Stoneforge was great in almost every matchup. I love transforming into a fishier deck postboard.

This tournament's meta was soooo skewed. From 1st to 5th place, 4 of the decks were Miracles. Miracles was 19% of the field with a 69% match win rate (thanks to Lordofthepit for the numbers). That's just utter dominance. Full standings and archetype breakdown is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByOiyutb-yd6ZWkxYmh0T0JzaUE/view

List
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

// Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear

[lordofthepit]

This tournament's meta was soooo skewed. From 1st to 5th place, 4 of the decks were Miracles. Miracles was 19% of the field with a 69% match win rate (thanks to Lordofthepit for the numbers). That's just utter dominance. Full standings and archetype breakdown is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByOiyutb-yd6ZWkxYmh0T0JzaUE/view

I do agree that the tournament was skewed toward Miracles this time, and I also believe it's the best deck in a general meta. What I don't understand though is Modern players in our local community claiming this is indicative of a warped meta when the analogous Modern tournament this month featured 4 Jund decks in the top 8, with the seven players putting up over 79% match win rate. That's an even more dominant performance.

[kentheide]

Anyone played any major events lately that had their fair share of Eldrazi matchups? What experiences did you have with sideboarding against it?

[hyp3r1on]

Don't often post in this thread, but I'm a long time Miracles/Lands player in Canada. Killed it at the GP Toronto Legacy side events playing a fairly stock list with the sideboard slightly tuned since there was a tonne of burn/storm/snt/reanimator. Split the finals of Friday with Jarvis Yu, 7-0 on Saturday and 6-1 Sunday. The list I was playing was:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment

4 CB
4 SDT
3 Jace

3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear // Tear
1 Containment Priest
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Moat
1 Red Elemental Blast

Obviously, the Surgery was just a meta call and something I wanted to test with. Seemed ok. Usually, I run -1 Fluster, -1 Surgery, +1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Izzet Staticaster. I've really been impressed with having access to Gideon in the Miracles mirror and other grindy decay decks such as Shardless/Aggro Loam etc. But overall, awesome weekend. Would do agian : )

[toffee]

Hi!
I'm new and I'm an italian player of Miracle.
My meta is different from USA and it is full of Shardless, Grixis, UR, Infect, D&T and ANT.
My Miracle list is:

4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 tundra
1 volcanic island
5 islands
2 plains
1 mountain

2 snapcaster mage
2 monastery mentor

3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 entreat the angels
1 council's judgment
2 counterspell
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

SIDEBOARD
3 red elemental blast
2 vendilion clique
2 spell pierce
2 wear/tear
2 rest in peace
2 back to basics
1 enginereed explosives
1 izzet staticaster

I play Monastery Mentor because it gives me the inevitability of some games...it is very fast to close the match, different from Entreat The Angels.
I play only 2 Snapcaster Mage because I want to have all fullset of Terminus and other cards...Snapcaster is only a Jolly in this list.
In the sideboard I play 2 Spell Pierce instead of Flusterstorm, because I can use it in different games, such as BUG, MUD, ANT, MIRROR, GRIXIS..Flusterstorm is very good only vs Combo..
I play Enginereed Explosives instead of Containment Priest, because it is a Jolly sideboard. I can use it in different games, such as D&T, BUG, all Chalice of the void decks...Grixis...
I play Back to Basics instead of Blood Moon because it follows the plan of my manabase, and it can stop a lot of decks...with Blood Moon I can't use the fetch...I have less handling..

Sorry for my bad english, but this forum is the only active forum which I can tell about my favourite deck.
What do you think about my list?

[twndomn]

Hi!

SIDEBOARD
3 red elemental blast
2 vendilion clique
2 spell pierce
2 wear/tear
2 rest in peace
2 back to basics
1 enginereed explosives
1 izzet staticaster

Sorry for my bad english, but this forum is the only active forum which I can tell about my favourite deck.
What do you think about my list?

Your MD list is very typical, I guess 2 Mentor + 1 Entreat is not as common but still fine. Italian Miracles player, couldn't you just reach out to Claudio Bonanni, the winner of GP Lille? Since you are committed to Mentor, you should run 3 Pyroblasts. Pyroblast works better with Mentor than Red Elemental Blast.

[KingOfThePanda]

So I just started investing in a Legacy deck, and the Miracles deck is the way I want to go. So after a little bit of studying, here is the list I came up with: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/

The problem is that I want to add Monastery Mentors to close the game faster. I don't know what to take out, or even if this build is good. I want to keep it UW because of budget reasons. Also, because of that fact, do I need Scalding Tarn and Arid Mesa for the extra fetches, or can I use another Misty Rainforest and another white fetch?

Thank you guys for any advise, I am looking forward to future collaboration.

[twndomn]

So I just started investing in a Legacy deck, and the Miracles deck is the way I want to go. So after a little bit of studying, here is the list I came up with: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/

The problem is that I want to add Monastery Mentors to close the game faster. I don't know what to take out, or even if this build is good. I want to keep it UW because of budget reasons. Also, because of that fact, do I need Scalding Tarn and Arid Mesa for the extra fetches, or can I use another Misty Rainforest and another white fetch?

Thank you guys for any advise, I am looking forward to future collaboration.

First of all, welcome to Miracles. Unfortunately, that list is just not that good, even if we limit ourselves to UW. Yes, you can use whatever blue-fetch you want, since you are only fetching Tundra. The 3 FoW and 3 StP make very little sense. I can maybe see the merit of 3 StP, but divert and Pierce are not where you want to be against unknown opponent game 1. Double Karakas only make sense if you want to go for Legend build. If you like the Legend + Karakas interaction so much, I would start with single Karakas. In time, you will know if you want a second one.

[KingOfThePanda]

First of all, welcome to Miracles. Unfortunately, that list is just not that good, even if we limit ourselves to UW. Yes, you can use whatever blue-fetch you want, since you are only fetching Tundra. The 3 FoW and 3 StP make very little sense. I can maybe see the merit of 3 StP, but divert and Pierce are not where you want to be against unknown opponent game 1. Double Karakas only make sense if you want to go for Legend build. If you like the Legend + Karakas interaction so much, I would start with single Karakas. In time, you will know if you want a second one.

Thank you for the advice and the response. What would you suggest I add/take out? I'm really new to the format, so I have no idea what the meta even looks like. Do you have a UW list that you would advise?

[twndomn]

Thank you for the advice and the response. What would you suggest I add/take out? I'm really new to the format, so I have no idea what the meta even looks like. Do you have a UW list that you would advise?

Control decks in any formats need to know what's a must-counter in any given MUs. New to a format means you don't understand the MUs while your opponent does, that means you have to commit patience to overcome the long learning curve. I would just Not bother with Karakas and MD Legend.

Take a typical list from a person posted on this page of this thread:
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn -> misty rainforest
2 arid mesa
2 tundra
1 volcanic island -> tundra
5 islands
2 plains
1 mountain -> plains

2 snapcaster mage
2 monastery mentor

3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 entreat the angels
1 council's judgment
2 counterspell
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

SIDEBOARD
3 red elemental blast -> Flusterstorm + ( Spell Pierce or Spell Snare)
2 vendilion clique
2 wear/tear -> Disenchant
2 rest in peace
2 back to basics
1 enginereed explosives
1 izzet staticaster -> Pithing Needle

Feel free to add whatever for the rest.

[kravkenov]

Hi guys, I'm looking forward to -maybe- play Miracles Mentor for the next Legacy GP Prague.
I started to "brainstorm" the list from Claudio Bonanni. Since GP Lille, Dig Trought Time get banned and the deck is now only 58 cards.
I added a 4th Swords and a Council. Since I would like to play Jace in the main, I reduced to 2 Terminus instead of the initial 3.

Here is the list "as is" :

4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


I wonder if Daze are mandatory. I guess there are not bad because Claudio won the GP, but lot of my friends told me Daze is a bad counter in this kind of control deck. Any thought about this ?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I would definitely want 3 Terminus at least. The 4th isn't completely neccesary with mentor, in that, you can clog up the board with mentor tokens and block all day, except in cases like TNN, which demands a terminus or Delver, which you can plow. It is pretty crucial you are able to terminus early, or you run the risk of getting overrun quickly in the early portions of the game where Miracles is relatively clunky.

Given you're playing Daze, I would cut the 3rd Jace, it's going to be tough between you're opponents wastelands and casting daze to get to 4 mana, let alone resolving it through say Spell Pierce or Daze.

I think Daze is decent if you're playing 4 mentors and super committed to it, but it does make playing Jace/Entreat/SCM rough.

[kravkenov]

I think Daze is decent if you're playing 4 mentors and super committed to it, but it does make playing Jace/Entreat/SCM rough.

So not running Jace at all in the main could make sense, but which card to run instead ? A council ? Or 4th Daze ?

[twndomn]

I wonder if Daze are mandatory. I guess there are not bad because Claudio won the GP, but lot of my friends told me Daze is a bad counter in this kind of control deck. Any thought about this ?

There're multiple issues with this paragraph.

1. So-and-so won the GP, therefore the card decisions are not bad. There is no evidence to suggest direct casual relationship. He won the GP due various reasons, Daze is only one of the factors. Great pros can win GP with an inferior list as well.

2. What kind of control deck? When you run 4 Mentor and 3 Daze, is this a strictly speaking control deck? I guess this would come down to the definition of control. Please clarify what do you think a control deck should be, and will a CB-T deck with 2~3 Miracles cards still classify as Miracles Control?

3. Is Daze a bad counter? Long story short, it depends on the context. Delver decks run Daze as part of their tempo strategy, and Daze has been working for them for a long time. Therefore, in the context of this deck, if your intention is to execute tempo strategy rather than control, it makes a lot of sense to run Daze. It's not just for the sole reasoning of turn 3 Mentor with Daze in hand.

Now, don't take it from me regarding the number of Terminus and Daze, another pro, BBD, offered his experience in running Mentor Miracles:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31938_Retooling-Miracles.html

"Other examples of cards that I dislike for this same reason are cards like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, or Daze...."

"Another rule I broke is one that I've already broken in the past and knew that it was a bad idea. That rule is simple. Don't play less than four Terminus...."

The article was written post GP-SeaTac.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

So not running Jace at all in the main could make sense, but which card to run instead ? A council ? Or 4th Daze ?

There still MU's where Jace is very good/necessary (Lands, the mirror, BG/x strategies), so I wouldn't cut him altogether.

[KZhang]

Thank you for the advice and the response. What would you suggest I add/take out? I'm really new to the format, so I have no idea what the meta even looks like. Do you have a UW list that you would advise?

To be honest, red blasts (pyroblasts and Red elemental blasts) are too important to the deck to leave out. If you really need to run a budget version, i would recommend just using shocklands instead. 2x Steam vents will not cost you very much, but will improve the performance of the deck significantly. (also giving you access to wear/tear, blood moons, EEs for 3, Izzet statiscaster, etc)

[Deadinthestreet]

I doubt the Nahiri thing will catch on at all, I threw the list together for my weekly last night and did three rounds going up against infect, kavu predator false cure deck, and burn. Didn't even see it to try and resolve first two rounds which all were close going to game three and then round three was my friend on burn and it went to game three but games two and three nahiri was what ended up closing it out for me.

Nothing to gloat about, I love Nahiri as a character so my inner vorthos wants to run it. Will try again next week and see if I can get her in hand and online sooner.

[CutthroatCasual]

I do agree that the tournament was skewed toward Miracles this time, and I also believe it's the best deck in a general meta. What I don't understand though is Modern players in our local community claiming this is indicative of a warped meta when the analogous Modern tournament this month featured 4 Jund decks in the top 8, with the seven players putting up over 79% match win rate. That's an even more dominant performance.

They're Modern players. They're not used to the self-policing format known as Legacy.

Miracles was also absent from the Top 16 at SCG Milwaukee. Just show them that result.

[kravkenov]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31938_Retooling-Miracles.html

The article was written post GP-SeaTac.

Thank you much for this article, it helped me a lot. After reading it, I think BBD is right. Mentor should not be run in a Miracle build. It was possible with Dig, because you see soon much card and so deep, but now the card is gone.

I will work around the list and maybe just accept this is not a Miracle build, but a Mentor build, and there for, Terminus is not untouchable and I should open my vision range.

[CutthroatCasual]

And here I am, always saying that Mentor isn't a MB card from day 1 :rolleyes: Good to know a pro and proficient Miracles player also thinks so.

I do like this quote, and will advise anyone who wants to run Ruination/From the Ashes to read this:


The last thing I want to talk about is the sideboard. I also have a philosophy, which you could, I suppose, call a rule, about sideboarding with Miracles. I want all of my cards to be super powerful cards that are devastating in the matchups I bring them in for. I don't want "random good cards" as I call them. Miracles is a super powerful deck and people try to fight the deck by exploiting areas where it is weak. I want each of my sideboard cards to plug those gaps as effectively and cheaply as possible. I don't need random jack-of-all-trades good cards because Miracles already is a good deck with powerful cards, and those kinds of cards don't actually fix any problems or accomplish anything that the deck doesn't already do.

Ruination/From the Ashes are "random good cards." You want to cast your hate as soon as realistically possible. These 2 cards, casted on turn 4, will likely not impact the game in any meaningful way (against decks that you would bring them in against). Your opponent will just rebuild, so the cards are not, as BBD would say, fixing any problems.

[Whitefaces]

And here I am, always saying that Mentor isn't a MB card from day 1 :rolleyes: Good to know a pro and proficient Miracles player also thinks so.

Jeez, get over yourself. Mentor won the first GP after it was printed, as a four-of. It's still widely played MD by a good number of people with good results. People are now going back to Entreat for a number of reasons, most of all Eldrazi I suppose. That doesn't mean this has been the 'right' plan from day one. In fact, it shows a lack of understanding to shifts in the format. Will you also say that Joe Lossett was 'wrong' when he cut Entreats?

And were you really playing it during TC and DTT? Entreat was horrible in that period because Flusterstorms were everywhere.


I do like this quote, and will advise anyone who wants to run Ruination/From the Ashes to read this: BBD quote

Ruination/From the Ashes are "random good cards." You want to cast your hate as soon as realistically possible. These 2 cards, casted on turn 4, will likely not impact the game in any meaningful way (against decks that you would bring them in against). Your opponent will just rebuild, so the cards are not, as BBD would say, fixing any problems.

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

[CutthroatCasual]

And were you really playing it during TC and DTT? Entreat was horrible in that period because Flusterstorms were everywhere.

I tried out Mentor during the DTT era (TC was banned before Mentor was even released. During that TC era, Bolt Bolt TC Bolt Snapcaster Bolt Young Pryo swing for 14 Delver was king and I doubt any amount of Mentor would change that.) Did not find it impactful enough in G1s, where your opponents still have spot removal in their decks and you get maybe 2 tokens out of him.




And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

If you're casting it on turn 4, your opponent can still rebuild. Our decks are inherently slow, so more likely than not they'll rebuild faster than we can establish a lock/stranglehold post-Ruination/From the Ashes.

If you're casting it on turn 5+ for value, that mana is better spent on something else that can win the game (like a Jace or ETA or Mentor).

BBD's argument from what I gather is that every spell we cast should be good on its own. Ruination/From the Ashes requires a followup. For example, Terminus to tuck the opponent's creatures that are still on the board post-spell, a Jace to +2 and make sure they don't draw lands (nothing to say of the lands they might have in hand already), or an ETA/Mentor to get a clock going before the opponent can rebuild (I already addressed the disadvantages of this in my first point). The card slows your opponent down but it doesn't stop them the same way a card like Blood Moon can.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

Just as they are generally good against your opponent, they randomly are good against you. It's not hard to imagine a board state where casting ruination can severely hurt yourself, drawing the wrong combination of fetches and needing to get UU on turn 2 while still having white mana to swords or terminus when needed means you may end up fetching your tundras up front, and unless you are playing a basic mountain, it's almost always going to get one of yours.

For that matter, against Reality Smashers and Thought-Knot Seers, an army of derpy dudes, a beefed up Glistener Elf or a 20/20, it's pretty much not going to do much. You still need to address the fact your opponent has a board state and once you've done so, sure Ruination is really good but you're already in a pretty good position anyways.

[twndomn]

Jeez, get over yourself. Mentor won the first GP after it was printed, as a four-of. It's still widely played MD by a good number of people with good results. People are now going back to Entreat for a number of reasons, most of all Eldrazi I suppose. That doesn't mean this has been the 'right' plan from day one. In fact, it shows a lack of understanding to shifts in the format. Will you also say that Joe Lossett was 'wrong' when he cut Entreats?

And were you really playing it during TC and DTT? Entreat was horrible in that period because Flusterstorms were everywhere.

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.

I totally agree with Dissection.

It's funny how I've provided a link to what the pro(s) has published, but it got interpreted opposite to what my expectation is.

The Mentor vs. Entreat issue is age-old. I don't want to accidentally restart the cycle again. The point of pointing out that article is to help newcomers of Miracles to have a place to start. As to people who have been playing for a while, I can just tell you straight up: people play Entreat over Mentor mostly because of Shardless BUG. I mean there're plenty of other reasons, but the bottom line is that EoT-Entreat or Entreat in response to Liliana is so much better than Mentor into token(s) in Miracles own turn. There're other considerations for other MU, but come on, none of them is as important as Shardless BUG.

As to BBD's random good cards comment, every Miracles veteran should be able to spot immediately, BBD hates Clique. Just look at his lists, he doesn't like to run it, he favors MM instead. In his article, he has stated his reasons. Now, we don't need to agree/disagree, but let's not misinterpret. Blood Moon or From the Ashes definitely does not impact the game like Clique, like Dissection has said, it's the opposite.

[Minniehajj]

Hostility aside, let's change the subject here a little bit. Nahiri has been started to be slotted into a few Miracles lists on mtgo, like YaTree's 5-0 list, and Joe has been streaming with it here and there. Has anyone else here gotten some testing in with Nahiri? I'm curious on results, I like the card a lot but never been certain how good cards are at face value.

[Shawn]

I have yet to lose a game vs Eldrazi when I have cast a Fron the Ashes vs them. It is insane against assuming you kept an ok hand. I'm wouldn't bring it in vs Infect; 4cc sorceries are not where you want to be vs that deck.

It ranges from good to bad vs Shardless depending on how many basics they run and if they have an active DRS.

[B88]

Your MD list is very typical, I guess 2 Mentor + 1 Entreat is not as common but still fine. Italian Miracles player, couldn't you just reach out to Claudio Bonanni, the winner of GP Lille? Since you are committed to Mentor, you should run 3 Pyroblasts. Pyroblast works better with Mentor than Red Elemental Blast.

ehy guys, some friends told me to come here! :tongue:

so i've played miracle in those days but and i find out (IMHO) a real issue: Counterbalance is not good as before. i mean... in this meta full of Eldrazi and BGx decks with Decay, CB is not good as before. i don't want say that is not a strong card in this deck, but we should find out others way.

Two last thing: 1- the best cards against not conventional lands still one: Blood Moon, since cost 1less than others solutions.
2- Daze still a thing in the mentor list, because help you to cover some lacks, like Chalice on turn one when we don't have Will (wich is not good too as before)

my 2cents

[CutthroatCasual]

Hostility aside, let's change the subject here a little bit. Nahiri has been started to be slotted into a few Miracles lists on mtgo, like YaTree's 5-0 list, and Joe has been streaming with it here and there. Has anyone else here gotten some testing in with Nahiri? I'm curious on results, I like the card a lot but never been certain how good cards are at face value.

I think you'll agree the last thing we need is another clunky card. Nahiri "loots", which is fine, but that's all she's really good for. Her ultimate gets what, a Mentor in most cases? Sure, we can then pump out cantrips to get value before he bounces, but is she what we really need to be doing?

The alternative is running a fatty like Emrakul like in Joe's list. And while it's cute to discard it with her +2 while its in our hand, wouldn't you rather just have that card be something else that's more usable than discard fodder in most cases? And if we don't have the Nahiri out, or we land her but can't protect, Emrakul is literally a dead card. I guess shuffling back our Terminuses and STPs is nice? But if running out of creature removal was really a concern then I'm sure we would have found a way to work Wheel of Sun and Moon into our decks by now.

[CutthroatCasual]

I have yet to lose a game vs Eldrazi when I have cast a Fron the Ashes vs them. It is insane against assuming you kept an ok hand. I'm wouldn't bring it in vs Infect; 4cc sorceries are not where you want to be vs that deck.

It ranges from good to bad vs Shardless depending on how many basics they run and if they have an active DRS.

The issue with From the Ashes/Ruination is that it's only good in one MU. Like you said, Shardless runs some number of basics, and against other decks with greedy nonbasic manabases it's just too slow. Not to mention, against Loam decks they can just Loam back their stuff and live off of their Mox Diamonds and single basic forest.

[Shawn]

It's still worth it against Shardless. My win % casting it vs them is still fine. You are wrong about its effectiveness vs Loam decks; it is a massive beating against lands, whereas Blood Moon can be hit or miss.

[prepare4robots]

BBD's argument from what I gather is that every spell we cast should be good on its own. Ruination/From the Ashes requires a followup. For example, Terminus to tuck the opponent's creatures that are still on the board post-spell, a Jace to +2 and make sure they don't draw lands (nothing to say of the lands they might have in hand already), or an ETA/Mentor to get a clock going before the opponent can rebuild (I already addressed the disadvantages of this in my first point). The card slows your opponent down but it doesn't stop them the same way a card like Blood Moon can.

I love this quote, given if you scroll down to the comments under BBD's article he specifically says he's not a fan of blood moon...

[CutthroatCasual]

I love this quote, given if you scroll down to the comments under BBD's article he specifically says he's not a fan of blood moon...

I never said BBD supported Blood Moon. I was merely pointing out that he doesn't like playing spells that aren't powerful on their own, and using BBD's quote to support my argument that From the Ashes is an example of such a spell, whereas Blood Moon is because it has staying power.

He also says that in a list running more basics than his, Blood Moon may be worth it. Most Miracles lists run more basics than he does (though not as many as Reid), so there's an argument for BM in the more typical Miracles lists.

[twndomn]

I never said BBD supported Blood Moon. I was merely pointing out that he doesn't like playing spells that aren't powerful on their own, and using BBD's quote to support my argument that From the Ashes is an example of such a spell, whereas Blood Moon is because it has staying power.


In other words, you are taking his statement out of context, and then misconstrue it as your own "support" into your blank thesis. I just don't see the merit of you doing this kind of manipulation.

Your opinion and understanding regarding From the Ashes and/or Blood Moon are purely your own. Free-associate your opinion is not going to make it more convincing. Even if you don't take BBD's quote out of context, I still question your understanding of these non-basic land hate. It's as if you don't understand the implication of these cards. Do you know how to set-up using these cards while avoiding the pitfall(s) in order to maximize their effect?

[CutthroatCasual]

In other words, you are taking his statement out of context, and then misconstrue it as your own "support" into your blank thesis. I just don't see the merit of you doing this kind of manipulation.

The context is there: BBD doesn't think our decks should be casting spells that don't win the game. I agree, and I'm making the assertion From the Ashes is such a spell.


I still question your understanding of these non-basic land hate. It's as if you don't understand the implication of these cards. Do you know how to set-up using these cards while avoiding the pitfall(s) in order to maximize their effect?

Of course I know how to set up. Sometimes it happens the way BBD draws it up and you draw more duals than you'd like. But I've never run in to the problem of getting at least 1 basic Island and at least 1 basic Plains before casting a Blood Moon. We can function on even just 1 Island through a Blood Moon because of our ability to dig to the second one. The mana in our decks is so good already that we really don't need to be aggressively fetching duals (at most, 1 Tundra will solve all early game requirements). Like BBD himself has said, he plays less basics than the traditional Miracles list does, so he can't utilize Blood Moon.

What set up is needed for From the Ashes? Fetching nonbasics early so that we get a payoff by being able to have access to more colors while still being able to be left with a basic land base post-spell? That opens us up to Wasteland, which is going to be seen more often by our opponents than we see our From the Ashes. There's no reason to expose ourselves to getting blown out by Wasteland for the sake of more value down the line.

So, say we fetch basics and then on turn 7 cast From the Ashes (not to mention, if you're going to fetch basics anyway then Blood Moon is a more one-sided effect that comes in a turn earlier) for maximum effect when the opponent has a juicy number of nonbasics. Against the decks we would bring the card in against, we would either be dead by then (Eldrazi) or we may be forced to fight a counter war over it (Shardless). In the case of the former, if we've actually survived to turn 7 against Eldrazi there's better things to be doing with 4 mana. If we want to make sure they can't cast another spell, Blood Moon does that job effectively because really the only "colored" spells we care about from them are TKS and Smasher. Everything else doesn't matter. In the latter example, assuming we haven't already spent our counterspells dealing with a Lili or Sylvan Library or Jace or protecting a Terminus, do we really want to be fighting over this spell? Shardless plays basics and they do fetch them G2/3 so what does destroying 3-4 lands accomplish?

I've said it before and from that SCG article I'm sure BBD would agree: our spells should have the ability to win us the game. I just don't see how From the Ashes does that. Your opponent has likely already established a clock by the time you cast it, whether that's on turn 4 or turn 9. Yes, Blood Moon doesn't deal with that clock, either, but it can make sure that they can't play Magic/establish another clock once we Terminus or Swords or Jace or Ambush Viper away that clock. From the Ashes doesn't turn off their post-spell rebuild land drops, especially when a deck like Shardless is just an Agent cascading into Ancestral away from getting right back into the game, or a deck like Eldrazi which can be 2 land drops away from regaining control.

I see how From the Ashes can be singularly devastating and more immediately impactful than Blood Moon. But it's not what our decks need. Miracles is a deck that plays from behind, slowly chipping away at your opponent's advantage(s) until you land and protect a Jace or EOT ETA. From the Ashes is a card that flips the tables, but it does nothing to make sure the tables stay flipped in our favor. To use a bad analogy, say we're running a race, but our opponent runs at 15 MPH and we run at 12 MPH. From the Ashes would be like us tripping our opponent. The opponent can still get back up and, if the race is long enough, catch up to take the lead again. Blood Moon would be like us filling our opponent's pockets with rocks to weigh and slow them down over the course of the race. It doesn't give us an immediate advantage, but it is a nuisance that will take its toll as the game goes long (and our decks love going long). In other words, we'd still be playing from behind for a little bit after we resolve Moon, but the disparity will decrease as we are able to more effectively cast our spells and our opponent won't be.

[Deadinthestreet]

In my handful of testing new Nahiri so far, even running two and one emmy MD, I haven't found it clunky at all. I'm always happy to draw her and start the time bomb, the loot is a may which rules and she can exile a creature that just attacked you...the deck has so much control power I don't think it's hard at all to run this three card package. A d she ultimate sooo fast. Will definitely be trying it out again at Card Kingdom in Monday and hopefully get the opportunity to play her more. Like I said last week, the two games I got her out I also got emrakul out. I don't think it's something to dismiss for being cute.

[KingOfThePanda]

So I spent last night testing this deck against my friend who played Death and Taxes and Merfolk. The D&T match up was kinda cool because it was always a close game. A great way to test out my skills. However, I think I only won 2 games out of the maybe 12 games I played against Merfolk.

Can anyone give me some insight and advice on both of these match ups? Like I said before, this is my first time touching a Legacy deck, so I'm still pretty new in regards to this format.

A couple things I noticed:

Fetch lands are very valuable because they let you shuffle away bad options shown to you by Top. I dug probably 4 or 5 times in one turn looking for a Terminus because I could shuffle.

Monastery Mentor really clashes with Terminus. I want to take Mentor out of the main, but I don't like the idea of not having a great value bomb. Anyways, it's still a good card, but lackluster in testing. I think I'll take him out.

Predict has been kinda an MVP in the deck. I put it in as a suggestion from my friend and Im really liking it. You can hold up a Counterspell and Predict end of turn if you don't counter anything.

Chalice of the Void sucks. I hate it.

I didn't put a Council's Judgements in the main, but I am going to. The deck doesn't really have a lot of removal outside of Terminus, and I found myself really wanting it a lot.

Not drawing deck manipulation really hurts. If we don't get it, we are just a control deck with a bunch of 1 for 1s.


Anyways, feel free to judge. I won't learn otherwise. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[kentheide]

Monastery Mentor really clashes with Terminus. I want to take Mentor out of the main, but I don't like the idea of not having a great value bomb. Anyways, it's still a good card, but lackluster in testing. I think I'll take him out.



You probably should not play the mentor if you are looking for a Terminus. You'd rather want to play him after said Terminus. If Mentor is on the board, swords is your solution. That said I personally prefer Entreat.



Chalice of the Void sucks. I hate it.



Turn 1 chalice is devastating on the draw. If you know you play an opponent with chalice and he's on the play you should probably try to mull for a FoW unless you have an otherwise great hand. I play Venser so I have a second out from the Chalice in addition to Council's which can be clunky with it's double white req.



I didn't put a Council's Judgements in the main, but I am going to. The deck doesn't really have a lot of removal outside of Terminus, and I found myself really wanting it a lot.



You should put it in there it's the only solution you have to a lot of problematic cards like Chalice, Opposing JtMS or Liliana, unless you play Venser. It's also a 3 CMC for CB.

[CutthroatCasual]

Merfolk is just a bad MU. Merfolk preys on other blue decks. Thankfully, it loses to most of the other decks being played right now so we don't need to worry about it as much. It's sort of like Eldrazi: can you survive their initial onslaught with a well-timed Terminus? If not, then GG. Unfortunately, Merfolk has more interaction back (Daze + FoW, whereas Eldrazi only has Eldrazi Charm).

DnT is not in DnT's favor as many would claim. It's definitely, as you've said, 50/50. Each deck has god draws the other can't beat, and they both happen with equal chances (hence the 50/50). The close games comes down to the skill of each pilot, though we're better equipped if the game goes long.

[KingOfThePanda]

So after playing against my friend, this is the list I am working towards. I apologize ahead of time for any mistakes, I am on my phone:

Lands:

4 Strand
4 Misty
2 Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
5 Island

Other:

2 Snapcaster
1 Clique
1 Mentor
3 Jace

2 Entreat
4 Terminus
4 Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Council
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Swords


The things I were considering were maybe removing a Jace for something like a Clique or a Ponder. I understand that it's a win condition and a great utility card, but I have 2 Entreat for the win condition part and I can replace it with a Clique for the utility against something like Delver.

On a side note, I realize that I am totally forgetting Predict. Any suggestions on how to squeeze those in here?

[kentheide]

So after playing against my friend, this is the list I am working towards. I apologize ahead of time for any mistakes, I am on my phone:

Lands:

4 Strand
4 Misty
2 Mesa
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
5 Island

Other:

2 Snapcaster
1 Clique
1 Mentor
3 Jace

2 Entreat
4 Terminus
4 Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Council
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Swords


The things I were considering were maybe removing a Jace for something like a Clique or a Ponder. I understand that it's a win condition and a great utility card, but I have 2 Entreat for the win condition part and I can replace it with a Clique for the utility against something like Delver.

On a side note, I realize that I am totally forgetting Predict. Any suggestions on how to squeeze those in here?

Personally I'd remove the Mentor if adding a Clique. That or a Counterspell. And you could play a 3rd Snapcaster and play one less swords and ponder. Making room for more value.

[KingOfThePanda]

Personally I'd remove the Mentor if adding a Clique. That or a Counterspell. And you could play a 3rd Snapcaster and play one less swords and ponder. Making room for more value.

I got yelled at on here for posting a list with 3 Swords, so I think I'll stick with 4. Either way, the Swords is my out against some pesky D&T cards. And I guess D&T is popular at my locals. I wound up taking out a Jace and a Counterbalance for 2 Predict. Which sucks because I bought 3 Jace today right before I posted.

[CutthroatCasual]

I got yelled at on here for posting a list with 3 Swords, so I think I'll stick with 4. Either way, the Swords is my out against some pesky D&T cards. And I guess D&T is popular at my locals. I wound up taking out a Jace and a Counterbalance for 2 Predict. Which sucks because I bought 3 Jace today right before I posted.

I've played 3 Swords before, but 4 is really just better.



The things I were considering were maybe removing a Jace for something like a Clique or a Ponder. I understand that it's a win condition and a great utility card, but I have 2 Entreat for the win condition part and I can replace it with a Clique for the utility against something like Delver.

On a side note, I realize that I am totally forgetting Predict. Any suggestions on how to squeeze those in here?

You don't need a Predict, so don't cut necessary cards just to fit it in. I agree with cutting a Jace for either a Clique of Ponder, your call. Merits to both.

You'll also want 2 Plains. 5 Islands is a bit much, go to 4.

[wcm8]

Regarding Nahiri, the Harbinger:

It's great in the sort of build popularized by Joe Lossett (essentially, Legendary Miracles -- 22 lands, Snapcaster, Clique and Venser, 2 Karakas, etc.). I don't think she would fit in a build that is running Mentor in the main deck. Builds running 20 lands and 4 ponder are too low to consistently hit 4 lands on turn 4, especially against a format with Wasteland and Stifle. If you're running her, you want to be able to land her right away.

The reality is that most of the win conditions (and Terminus) in Miracles are dead cards in your opening hand. The goal of course would be to use Brainstorm or Jace to throw back Emrakul (or Entreat or whatever) back until the opportunity arises. Emrakul does offer a nice bonus of making you resistant to Grindstone (at least in game 1). Running a bunch of late game cards that are bad in your opening hand is simply the cost of playing a deck that intends to win in the late game.

Nahiri is powerful even without the ultimate: card filter and removal in a single card... that also threatens to end the game in 3 turns. I don't think she would be worth running at all if the other abilities weren't good.

Faster decks continue to be the archetype's main problem. Decks like Burn and Delver can often manage 20 damage before Miracles can establish a lock. Cabal Therapy is especially powerful against a deck that can't empty its hand very quickly. Nahiri is not solving any problems here. But against midrange decks, she is an amazing new addition to the archetype's win condition options. I have been impressed with her in testing and would suggest people give her a chance.

[KingOfThePanda]

Regarding Nahiri, the Harbinger:

It's great in the sort of build popularized by Joe Lossett (essentially, Legendary Miracles -- 22 lands, Snapcaster, Clique and Venser, 2 Karakas, etc.). I don't think she would fit in a build that is running Mentor in the main deck. Builds running 20 lands and 4 ponder are too low to consistently hit 4 lands on turn 4, especially against a format with Wasteland and Stifle. If you're running her, you want to be able to land her right away.

The reality is that most of the win conditions (and Terminus) in Miracles are dead cards in your opening hand. The goal of course would be to use Brainstorm or Jace to throw back Emrakul (or Entreat or whatever) back until the opportunity arises. Emrakul does offer a nice bonus of making you resistant to Grindstone (at least in game 1). Running a bunch of late game cards that are bad in your opening hand is simply the cost of playing a deck that intends to win in the late game.

Nahiri is powerful even without the ultimate: card filter and removal in a single card... that also threatens to end the game in 3 turns. I don't think she would be worth running at all if the other abilities weren't good.

Faster decks continue to be the archetype's main problem. Decks like Burn and Delver can often manage 20 damage before Miracles can establish a lock. Cabal Therapy is especially powerful against a deck that can't empty its hand very quickly. Nahiri is not solving any problems here. But against midrange decks, she is an amazing new addition to the archetype's win condition options. I have been impressed with her in testing and would suggest people give her a chance.

From the sounds of it, she is a sideboard card. Is there any merit to that, or do you still want her main? Because if her effectiveness depends on the opponent, that's a sideboard card. The next question is: Is it going to be better against the target deck than the card you are replacing?

I have no idea about any of this, but I figured I'd throw some input in.

Also, how are we bringing out Emrakul? There's no way we hard cast it, is there? What am I missing there?

[twndomn]

I have no idea about any of this, but I figured I'd throw some input in.

Also, how are we bringing out Emrakul? There's no way we hard cast it, is there? What am I missing there?

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, until you make that comment.

Nahiri, the Harbinger
+2: You may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
−2: Exile target enchantment, tapped artifact, or tapped creature.
−8: Search your library for an artifact or creature card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. It gains haste. Return it to your hand at the beginning of the next end step.

RTFC

[CutthroatCasual]

I personally don't like Nahiri because she puts us into 3c G1 and I like to minimize the potential of getting blown out by inherent nonbasic hate. But I will be keeping an eye on results and if she raises our W% significantly across many/all MUs I might have to play her.

I already bought 2 off Hareruya anyway, though mostly because she's spiking and I want to get the copies I would need now rather than later when she's hit her ceiling.

[kentheide]

I got yelled at on here for posting a list with 3 Swords, so I think I'll stick with 4. Either way, the Swords is my out against some pesky D&T cards. And I guess D&T is popular at my locals. I wound up taking out a Jace and a Counterbalance for 2 Predict. Which sucks because I bought 3 Jace today right before I posted.

To be clear - the 3 swords option was if you increased the number of Snapcasters. It's also dependant on what other sorts of removal you bring to your list. Take for example Joe's list with 3 swords. He has 2x Venser and 3x Cliques. That potentially gets rid of targets to sword or bounce while digging for that terminus.

[toffee]

This is the list of BAZAAR OF MOXEN in Annecy, an important tournment in Europe.

WELLINGER Serafin - UW Miracles - Top 8 Legacy

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
8 Island
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterspell
2 Back to Basics
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Arid Mesa
1 Tundra
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
1 Ponder

Sideboard 15
3 Flusterstorm
1 Peacekeeper
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Future Sight
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Disenchant

what do you think about this?
I don't like BTB maindeck and only 1 ponder. I would ask to you about it.

(300 players..)

[CutthroatCasual]

Gross. Congrats, but gross. I wonder what inbred meta people were expecting that they didn't feel the need to run Wear//Tear and REB.

[KingOfThePanda]

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, until you make that comment.

Nahiri, the Harbinger
+2: You may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
−2: Exile target enchantment, tapped artifact, or tapped creature.
−8: Search your library for an artifact or creature card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. It gains haste. Return it to your hand at the beginning of the next end step.

RTFC

Right... That. I have a reputation for not reading cards all the way through. For some reason, I was thinking that Miracles decks without Nahiri were running Emrakul. Lesson learned. Sorry about that.

[prepare4robots]

Right... That. I have a reputation for not reading cards all the way through. For some reason, I was thinking that Miracles decks without Nahiri were running Emrakul. Lesson learned. Sorry about that.

Ignore your posts. Got it.

[KingOfThePanda]

Ignore your posts. Got it.

Well I'm not going to learn if I don't interact and make mistakes. It's not like I'm a bad player or anything.

So... In that list posted, the guy is running 1 Ponder. Is Ponder that cuttable of a card? It seems like a great filter card as well as a card which allows you to manually shuffle after Top activations if you don't have a fetch.

And is it normal to run Back to Basics in the maindeck? I ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE CARD and this one feels like a sideboard card too. The one thing that I can give it is that its CMC is low. But is the meta really filled with decks with mostly nonbasics? I mean, obviously if he won. But can that be applied in a general sense, or was that a good meta call on his part? If you look at the manabase, he is running less fetches and no Karakas, so the manabase was obviously build around Back to Basics. I'm not sure if that is something that a build can count on going blind into a meta.

There are also 2 Mentors in the Main, which is just confusing me because there are so many people telling me to run 1 Main, 2 Main, or 0 Main. It is starting to sound like it's just personal preference. I like 1 Main.

[Jaytron]

Well I'm not going to learn if I don't interact and make mistakes. It's not like I'm a bad player or anything.

So... In that list posted, the guy is running 1 Ponder. Is Ponder that cuttable of a card? It seems like a great filter card as well as a card which allows you to manually shuffle after Top activations if you don't have a fetch.

And is it normal to run Back to Basics in the maindeck? I ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE CARD and this one feels like a sideboard card too. The one thing that I can give it is that its CMC is low. But is the meta really filled with decks with mostly nonbasics? I mean, obviously if he won. But can that be applied in a general sense, or was that a good meta call on his part? If you look at the manabase, he is running less fetches and no Karakas, so the manabase was obviously build around Back to Basics. I'm not sure if that is something that a build can count on going blind into a meta.

There are also 2 Mentors in the Main, which is just confusing me because there are so many people telling me to run 1 Main, 2 Main, or 0 Main. It is starting to sound like it's just personal preference. I like 1 Main.



I feel like reading cards and knowing what they do go hand in hand with not being a bad player :P

If you look at his deck, you'll see he can run Back to Basics because he's UW only and runs a ton of basics.

[kravkenov]

So, I didn't play as great as Serafin Welling and his UW build, but anyways, here is my report.

I woke up at 6am to meet my friends at 7am, and go by car to Annecy. I planned to play RUG Lands, but as I really didn't sleep very well (my baby son screamed all night). So, before leaving home, I thought it will be easier to play Miracle Mentor instead of RUG Lands. Not because the deck is more or less complicated to play, but because I felt Miracle Mentor will leave me more time between round than Lands.

One hour of drive later, we arrived at the tournament place. I talked with other guys, smoked few cigarettes, and then noticed I was so tired than I forgot to remove the proxies in my deck since it was not supposed to be my tournament deck... So I needed to find 3 Tundra and 4 Counterbalance. I bought Counterbalance and hopefully my friends who piloted the car lend me 3 Tundra he will trading at the tournament. So lucky.

1-0 Round 1 vs Shardless BUG
This was a good match. Winning the first match is always cool. My opponent was playing Shardless BUG, and didn't have lots of luck since the only creature he had cast was Baleful Strix and Shaman. He didn't see any Tarmogoyf or Shardless to cascade, plus they Shaman were almost every time hitter the turn after by Swords or Bolt, and the Strix chump blocked my mentor.
First game was a real sin. He cast Lilianna and destroyed my hand. I scooped soon because I want to keep time for game 2 and 3. Game 2 was very fast, I was able to establish a CounterTop lock soon, and the Mentor slowly took the game with a big attack phase (loop Top into Top). Game 3 was almost a carbon copy from game 2 ;)

2-0 Round 2 vs Death & Taxes
This was a very close match, but it ended both game in my favor. Game 1 I established a fast CounterTop lock, followed by a Terminus and then cast Mentor and start looping Top into Top. Game 2 I kept a good hand with a Disenchant. Turn 1 he cast a Vial. I cast a Top. He up his Vial and drop a second land (a Rishadan Port I guess). I drop a land and Disenchant his Vial. This was a game because he just never got a 3rd land and I was soon after with Jace to be sure he won't draw one. Mentor took the game slowly.

I really apologized against my opponent because the first Terminus was cast illegally (from a mana took in upkeep off Rishadan Port activation), and we didn't notice until a turn passed. A judge was close to us and told us we cannot go back in the game because a full turn was made (my turn, his turn, my turn).

3-0 Round 3 vs Jund
Another match where CounterTop was on the table soon, and where I was able to loop Top into Top to make an army of tokens, who took the game in only one swing. Games were close, and again I was once destroyed by a fast Liliana. Damn Planeswalker ! I was a bit lucky because I drew a second Counterbalance and kept it in hand several turns (pitch to Force). Then I chose to play it, having 2 counterbalance in the game. Was a nice move because my opponent drew his Abrupt Decay right after !

3-1 Round 4 vs Show and Tell
I wasn't able to stop him and Emrakul or Griselbrand took the game. My opponent was very much better prepared than I was, and never ever forget a thing on the board. He was a good player and he played in the top tables at the end of round 8, so I guess he ended top16.

3-2 Round 5 vs Planeswalker.deck (Gideon/Sorin, Lord of Innistrad)
Curiously, I wasn't paired with anyone for this round. Judge Table told me to play again room guy, I wasn't happy because it generally means random deck. And it was : a kind of Planeswalker.deck with Gideon, Sorin, and Elspeth... I took one game with a loop Top into Top, but not the 2 others :/

3-3 Round 6 vs Eldrazi
Just too fast and too aggressive. I never was able to do something.


Overall it was a nice day, the deck is not bad but Daze was just not in the right place. Also playing only 2 Terminus was wrong. I will go to 3-4 Terminus and 1-2 more burn spell (Sudden Shock to add more cmc 2 spell for Counterbalance, or Forked Bolt).


The list I played, for reference (I dont know if it still Miracle with only 2 Terminus...)

MAINDECK
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

SIDEBOARD
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[twndomn]

Overall it was a nice day, the deck is not bad but Daze was just not in the right place. Also playing only 2 Terminus was wrong. I will go to 3-4 Terminus and 1-2 more burn spell (Sudden Shock to and more spell cmc 2 for Counterbalance, or Forked Bolt).


The list I played, for reference

MAINDECK
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt


I understand you're trying to go wild with Mentor + Bolt. However, I feel CMC 2 Burn works better since Chalice is at all time high. To be specific I feel there's room in exploring Lighting Helix instead of Bolt.

[CutthroatCasual]

Also playing only 2 Terminus was wrong. I will go to 3-4 Terminus and 1-2 more burn spell (Sudden Shock to add more cmc 2 spell for Counterbalance, or Forked Bolt).

Instead of trying to build around Mentor, you should let adapt Mentor to your list. In other words, move it to the SB and play MD Entreat again. Mentor is a great secondary win-con, but he's not worth sinking all your resources into.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys, just started playing the Nahiri build. Do you guys board out Emrakul vs Death and Taxes?

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Nhiri, the Harbinger
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell

[prepare4robots]

Hey guys, just started playing the Nahiri build. Do you guys board out Emrakul vs Death and Taxes?

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Nhiri, the Harbinger
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell

In my opinion, Nahiri does not [yet] have a 'build'. There are a bunch of people, myself included, who are trying out Nahiri to see if she is good enough. Until she starts putting up actual results, it's nothing more than testing and we probably won't know the proper way to sideboard for each match.

That being said, I think your real question is: Do we keep Em in against D&T given they have Karakas? If you break this question down, there are really only three possible answers, each of which likely needs to be tested.

1. Do nothing and assume your opponent won't draw Karakas - This is not a good option in my opinion, but is a perfectly reasonable approach. You're basically racing their draws.

2. Side out Em (and Nahiri?) - This is better than option 1 in my opinion, however, we need to determine what come in out of the sideboard. So, what would we replace the win-con with? Needs testing, could be Monastary Mentor or any other potential sideboard cards.

3. Side in tech to shut down Karakas - This and option 2 are tied for viability in my opinion. Lots of cards can shut off Karaks. In Joe's build he can end of turn Venser it back to the opponents hand. Pithing needle is already a good card against D&T. Blood Moon also works, I've never sided it in against D&T, but this is another option. Interesting thing about this option is some of these answers are searchable by Nahiri herself (needle and Venser for example)

All of these need testing. Please let us know what you find, and how you like Nahiri.

[ironclad8690]

Holy crap, this deck is ridiculously easy to play. That was the easiest 4-1 league of my life.

BUG Control: 2-0
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Goblins: 2-0
Death and Taxes: 1-0 (then I had to go to the store and timed out) 1-2
Storm: 2-1 (punted game 2 by not leaving FoW as my draw with Top, I had 5 mana up but I was so far ahead I didn't think he could storm me out).

It feels like if you play this deck well, it is basically unstoppable. This was my first time playing the deck in a competitive setting, and I am very happy with it. I made a ton of mistakes, and was only punished for 1 of them.

[CutthroatCasual]

Aside from maybe Shardless, I don't see how Nahiri shines in any of those MUs.

[Quasim0ff]

Holy crap, this deck is ridiculously easy to play. That was the easiest 4-1 league of my life.


I agree. Everyone else, Reid Duke among them, are just trying to not get people to play Miracles.

Facepalm.jpg

[CutthroatCasual]

I agree. Everyone else, Reid Duke among them, are just trying to not get people to play Miracles.

Facepalm.jpg

If it's for time considerations, I can see it. Newbs will almost always be slower. But there's the catch: if new players don't get practice, they'll never get faster.

[Quasim0ff]

If it's for time considerations, I can see it. Newbs will almost always be slower. But there's the catch: if new players don't get practice, they'll never get faster.

What? He said miracles is super easy to pilot. He didn't talk about time considerations.

[kentheide]

Holy crap, this deck is ridiculously easy to play. That was the easiest 4-1 league of my life.

BUG Control: 2-0
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Goblins: 2-0
Death and Taxes: 1-0 (then I had to go to the store and timed out) 1-2
Storm: 2-1 (punted game 2 by not leaving FoW as my draw with Top, I had 5 mana up but I was so far ahead I didn't think he could storm me out).

It feels like if you play this deck well, it is basically unstoppable. This was my first time playing the deck in a competitive setting, and I am very happy with it. I made a ton of mistakes, and was only punished for 1 of them.

If your opponents do not punish you, they are sub-par. It doesn't mean the deck is easy to play. If you made a ton of mistakes you would probably get blown out by someone who knew what they were doing.

[MiraclesWizard]

If your opponents do not punish you, they are sub-par. It doesn't mean the deck is easy to play. If you made a ton of mistakes you would probably get blown out by someone who knew what they were doing.

yeah if you made a ton of mistakes and you knew it, ur opponents aren't well versed in Legacy

[ironclad8690]

It didn't feel like they were bad, their decks just lacked the capability to punish anything I did within the timeframe they were allowed.

I also make a habit of playing very quickly, and who knows, maybe I didn't play as bad as I thought. It just felt extremely high powered compared to any other deck I have played, and I was not punished for my mistakes like I tend to be with other decks.

[Quasim0ff]

It didn't feel like they were bad, their decks just lacked the capability to punish anything I did within the timeframe they were allowed.

I also make a habit of playing very quickly, and who knows, maybe I didn't play as bad as I thought. It just felt extremely high powered compared to any other deck I have played, and I was not punished for my mistakes like I tend to be with other decks.

Miracles is an inherently powerful archetype; This is the reason why its been considered the strongest deck in legacy for a long, long time.

The deck has so many lines, and ending up in a spot where it doesn't matter what you do and you still win, eventually, is the hard part. The struggle is not winning, it's making sure you aren't dead before you've won. This is also why people don't scoop earlier. You know you've won, but your opponent might believe they have an out.

[CutthroatCasual]

What? He said miracles is super easy to pilot. He didn't talk about time considerations.

Did you even read the comment I was replying to?


Everyone else, Reid Duke among them, are just trying to not get people to play Miracles.




It didn't feel like they were bad, their decks just lacked the capability to punish anything I did within the timeframe they were allowed.

I also make a habit of playing very quickly, and who knows, maybe I didn't play as bad as I thought. It just felt extremely high powered compared to any other deck I have played, and I was not punished for my mistakes like I tend to be with other decks.


If your opponents do not punish you, they are sub-par. It doesn't mean the deck is easy to play. If you made a ton of mistakes you would probably get blown out by someone who knew what they were doing.


yeah if you made a ton of mistakes and you knew it, ur opponents aren't well versed in Legacy

These 2 posts say it best. Don't get complacent, ironclad8690. One of the drawbacks to having Legacy be more accessible via MTGO is that less experienced players will be able to buy into decks without necessarily being proficient pilots of them because the cost is less so they're more free to buy what they want. I can go on XMage and do well with Miracles, but get smacked around at an SCG event.

[ironclad8690]

Alright, well I will keep playing and let you guys know what I find.

Also, would there be any interest in recorded matches on youtube or something like that? I know a ton of pretty experienced players stream, but it might be cool to go back and watch matches in playlist form, sort of like how gigapatrick does on the Lands forum.

[Quasim0ff]

Alright, well I will keep playing and let you guys know what I find.

Also, would there be any interest in recorded matches on youtube or something like that? I know a ton of pretty experienced players stream, but it might be cool to go back and watch matches in playlist form, sort of like how gigapatrick does on the Lands forum.

That'd be interested, yes. :)

[Cipher]

It didn't feel like they were bad, their decks just lacked the capability to punish anything I did within the timeframe they were allowed.

I also make a habit of playing very quickly, and who knows, maybe I didn't play as bad as I thought. It just felt extremely high powered compared to any other deck I have played, and I was not punished for my mistakes like I tend to be with other decks.
+1

I almost feel guilty playing this deck. So many mistakes, so few punishments. Miracles is basically "Tier 0".

I think it's due to R&D's focus on overpowered creatures; in my mind Terminus is the strongest card in the deck.

[ironclad8690]

It just attacks both creature based and spell based decks on the best axes possible: Terminus/Swords/Snap/Planeswalkers vs attack decks and countertop vs spell based decks. I am thinking the most challenging and skill testing of all the matchups is the mirror.

Speaking of which, how many of each card from the board do you want in the mirror?

I was thinking from my earlier list you would want:

+3 Blast effects, +1-2 Flusterstorm, +1-2 Clique, +2 Wear// Tear

I know you would cut 4 STP and some amount of Terminus (probably want to leave some for mentor?), and maybe cut some FoW? Or does that just sound wrong?

[KingOfThePanda]

It just attacks both creature based and spell based decks on the best axes possible: Terminus/Swords/Snap/Planeswalkers vs attack decks and countertop vs spell based decks. I am thinking the most challenging and skill testing of all the matchups is the mirror.

Speaking of which, how many of each card from the board do you want in the mirror?

I was thinking from my earlier list you would want:

+3 Blast effects, +1-2 Flusterstorm, +1-2 Clique, +2 Wear// Tear

I know you would cut 4 STP and some amount of Terminus (probably want to leave some for mentor?), and maybe cut some FoW? Or does that just sound wrong?

For a mirror match, Mentor seems like the place you want to be. It's creatures that you don't have to invest too much mana into, which is ideal due to terminus. And if you think they are going to side out some Terminus, it seems like a great way to level.

On top of Mentor, Force of Will Smith feels like a double edged sword. On one hand, you can Mentor and tap out and not have to worry about terminus. But on the other hand, you are using up precious cards. In the mirror, that feels like quite the drawback, seems as how the deck thrives on card advantage.

From what I've heard though, getting Countertop first means a win in the mirror, so maybe FoW is more important?

So, if we don't want to lose card advantage, but still want lots of counters, could Daze be a viable Sideboard card for the mirror? It doesn't seem like we care a whole bunch about having more mana than our opponent, but we do card about manipulating their card choices. Turn 1 Top, Daze their Turn 1 top feels really powerful to me. Or even they turn 1 top, you turn 1 top, they turn 2 try to Counterbalance, you Daze the counterbalance. That seems powerful too. Now they don't have a Balance, but you don't ha e a land. However, you got to keep the land and they now have to use resources to dig for another Counterbalance.

[Jaytron]

It just attacks both creature based and spell based decks on the best axes possible: Terminus/Swords/Snap/Planeswalkers vs attack decks and countertop vs spell based decks. I am thinking the most challenging and skill testing of all the matchups is the mirror.

Speaking of which, how many of each card from the board do you want in the mirror?

I was thinking from my earlier list you would want:

+3 Blast effects, +1-2 Flusterstorm, +1-2 Clique, +2 Wear// Tear

I know you would cut 4 STP and some amount of Terminus (probably want to leave some for mentor?), and maybe cut some FoW? Or does that just sound wrong?

Ironclad, you're literally in every thread I follow :P

We also seem to switch decks at around the same time.. lol

[Whitefaces]

Counterbalance is by far the best card in the matchup, followed by Jace. You need more than just three blasts to stop these, Force of Will is a necessity.

[KingOfThePanda]

Counterbalance is by far the best card in the matchup, followed by Jace. You need more than just three blasts to stop these, Force of Will is a necessity.

So is Mentor that important? I just want to see where my initial impression was of the mirror.

[ironclad8690]

Just punted like 20 times and still was able to beat Andrea Mengucci playing BUG Thing in the Ice, 2-0. I tried to record the match but my screen recorder bit the bigota. Maybe he will post the video lol.

Punts included:

accidentally clicking cancel for a terminus trigger that I wanted to cast.

playing a snapcaster into an untapped deathrite shaman and losing my only target in GY.

revealing several cards to counterbalance accidentally when I didn't need to.

and many more. Nahiri puts such a fast clock on him that there wasn't really much he could do.

[CutthroatCasual]

I've never found Mentor to be all that valuable in the mirror, but I know a lot of people just bring him in anyway so I like to keep in at least 2 STP for him (and Clique and sometimes Snap) and some number of Terminus for when someone thinks it's safe to overextend with Mentor. It's also just a good safety card when your opponent ETAs. As for wincons in the mirror, Jace should be your priority. Protect him at all costs.

[rancOr_]

I have a lot of experience in the Miracles mirror. I personally board out all 4 STP/ Terminus, 1 plains and 1 Jace (always leave 1 in) and sometimes 1 ETA (always leaving one in). If u dont keep in ETA/Mentor boarding out both Plains is fine..You can board out all removal if you play Izzet Staticaster, as this will deal with most creatures (SCM/V. Clique/Mentor) together with REB. Also 1-2 ETA as another out to overpower a resolved Mentor or win through CB lock (preferably w fluster backup).
If they don't run Mentor its best to be on the draw if ur capable..

[ironclad8690]

I recorded the last two videos of my league with a new (functional this time) screen recorder.

Here (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW523TcJWf0H15ShYZ8T0U5E)'s a link to the playlist, which contains a 2-0 vs Esper Blade and a 2-1 vs Belcher.

Here were the results of this league, another pretty easy 4-1:

Eldrazi: 0-2
Infect: 2-0
BUG Thing in the Ice (like BoM top 8 list, Andrea Mengucci playing it): 2-0
Esper Stoneblade: 2-0
Belcher: 2-1

I don't think you can make the "bad player" argument about the guy who got 2nd at the most recent pro tour. Despite some epic punts I still got there without dropping a game. I love this deck, and I am going to keep farming these tickets.

[Jaytron]

I recorded the last two videos of my league with a new (functional this time) screen recorder.

Here (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW523TcJWf0H15ShYZ8T0U5E)'s a link to the playlist, which contains a 2-0 vs Esper Blade and a 2-1 vs Belcher.

Here were the results of this league, another pretty easy 4-1:

Eldrazi: 0-2
Infect: 2-0
BUG Thing in the Ice (like BoM top 8 list, Andrea Mengucci playing it): 2-0
Esper Stoneblade: 2-0
Belcher: 2-1

I don't think you can make the "bad player" argument about the guy who got 2nd at the most recent pro tour. Despite some epic punts I still got there without dropping a game. I love this deck, and I am going to keep farming these tickets.

I think I would have wished for some sound and maybe commentary? Probably not a huge deal though