Miracle Control

[prepare4robots]

Fairly certain we already got the answer to this. We'll jam if he and I have the time =P

Please please please get a camera on this! Or, can we setup a streamer challenge AnziD VS Oarsman? No ghosting... ;)

[Jeff]

If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us.


Probably so, but put me down as someone who wants to watch it anyway.

[twndomn]

Legacy is very complicated, and player skill matters a lot. If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us. There is so much going on that I don't think another person could slot themselves into either side and expect to replicate the result. It could slant better or worse on either side.

It would be entertaining and meaningful to people who care about Miracles, granted a narrow band of people. 33 Game one, 67 SB games, 8 to 10 hours, it would be a fun streamers' showdown.

[oarsman]

It would be entertaining and meaningful to people who care about Miracles, granted a narrow band of people. 33 Game one, 67 SB games, 8 to 10 hours, it would be a fun streamers' showdown.

Even if we boarded out the Tops, we aren't averaging six minutes a game.

[Sloshthedark]

something like best of 10 matches? I don't really care about Miracles but would certainly watch that

[DNSolver]

Yeah I must admit I laughed out loud at the thought of playing more than 30 games of the mirror in 10 hours.

[jarvisyu]

Yeah I must admit I laughed out loud at the thought of playing more than 30 games of the mirror in 10 hours.

I'd put both of those guys on the slowplay watch list then.

[jarvisyu]

Let me explain:

You should playtest the way you're going to play in a tournament.

If you're going above time in playtest games, you really should reconsider your mechanics / pace of play, etc.

[Minniehajj]

Yeah I must admit I laughed out loud at the thought of playing more than 30 games of the mirror in 10 hours.

I'm sorry, but this is balderdash. 30 games of the mirror in less than 10 hours is really really really easy.... Like, very easy to accomplish. Especially given the expertise of the pilots.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Yeah, 20 minute Miracles mirror games should not be even slightly difficult. Every now and then you'll get an insane slog-of-a-game, but most mirror games are no longer than other Legacy matchups. In fact, I'd argue that Delver mirrors very often go longer because you kill each other's creatures and don't have something like CounterTop to lock up the game by turn 3.

[FZA]

Yeah, 20 minute Miracles mirror games should not be even slightly difficult. Every now and then you'll get an insane slog-of-a-game, but most mirror games are no longer than other Legacy matchups. In fact, I'd argue that Delver mirrors very often go longer because you kill each other's creatures and don't have something like CounterTop to lock up the game by turn 3.

Yeah, Miracles mirrors are nothing compared to some of the other mirrors out there...the Shardless mirror can get pretty dumb when both players have 3 Baleful Strixes on the board and nobody wants to attack. Miracles v Lands can also be a pretty long slog.

[Sibelius]

well i too realised that it is mostly 2 players putting up these results. Then again does that mean that overall Miracles is currently not in a good spot? On the other hand there are decent results for miracles at major tournaments like gp louisville. that what keeps me wondering whether it is just me making mistakes or the deck not being good at the moment.

Miracles is thought to be the 'best deck' by most people. If you are having issues it may be your metagame is especially hateful or the way you are playing.
If you are not really experienced in the format then a deck that has so many decisions will give you many opportunities to make the wrong choice. Watch some videos or streams of successful players and try and see where their decisions differ from yours.
Good luck!

Sib

[lordofthepit]

So for the first time, I got a Miracles list posted as a 5-0 in a league for which I didn't even go 5-0. Apparently, this has also happened with another Miracles player I know. Is there something about the MTGO posting algorithm that somehow may cause Miracles list to be over-represented among these 5-0 lists?

(I have also had several 5-0s for which the lists were never posted. I think these were usually with decks other than Miracles.)

[FZA]

So for the first time, I got a Miracles list posted as a 5-0 in a league for which I didn't even go 5-0. Apparently, this has also happened with another Miracles player I know. Is there something about the MTGO posting algorithm that somehow may cause Miracles list to be over-represented among these 5-0 lists?

(I have also had several 5-0s for which the lists were never posted. I think these were usually with decks other than Miracles.)

Well with regards to your second point, only a random selection of 5-0's get posted so that's normal. Not sure what to say about the first one, must be a bug.

[twndomn]

I might just lose it if one day my opponent resolves this version.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Cb-D1VsAIOvBR.jpg

[Discus]

So for the first time, I got a Miracles list posted as a 5-0 in a league for which I didn't even go 5-0. Apparently, this has also happened with another Miracles player I know. Is there something about the MTGO posting algorithm that somehow may cause Miracles list to be over-represented among these 5-0 lists?

(I have also had several 5-0s for which the lists were never posted. I think these were usually with decks other than Miracles.)

Yeah, same issue here with my H0cusP0cus account, i was on a 4/1 instead of 5/0

[Cipher]

I might just lose it if one day my opponent resolves this version.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Cb-D1VsAIOvBR.jpg
I'm just going to pretend I don't see the card and make my opponent tell me what it is...that or call the judge and tell him my opponent is playing Yugioh cards.

[CutthroatCasual]

I might just lose it if one day my opponent resolves this version.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Cb-D1VsAIOvBR.jpg

Don't worry, it'll be the universal sign for "how to spot a pleb" or "I just bought into Legacy 2 months ago."

[Minniehajj]

Don't worry, it'll be the universal sign for "how to spot a pleb" or "I just bought into Legacy 2 months ago."

I really don't like this attitude, why should we look down on people that play the format?

That being said, you better bet I'm calling a judge whenever my opponent plays one of these cards. In my opinion, they are basically Yu Gi Oh cards and should not be legal in Magic at all. If these are legal and the Snoopy Goyfs from GP Indy aren't...that's a reaaaaal tragedy.

[hyp3r1on]

As obnoxiously bad as the Counterbalance invocation is, I don't see how it's any worse than FTV JTMS.

[Minniehajj]

As obnoxiously bad as the Counterbalance invocation is, I don't see how it's any worse than FTV JTMS.

They are both horrendously offensive, glad we're in agreement here.

EDIT: Oh! BIG FAN btw!

[Namhcir]

I might just lose it if one day my opponent resolves this version.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Cb-D1VsAIOvBR.jpg

I can't wait to resolve these in Vegas :tongue:. I think I am the only person that likes these versions lol. Although I will stick to acquiring JP Forces.

[Cipher]

I can't wait to resolve these in Vegas :tongue:. I think I am the only person that likes these versions lol. Although I will stick to acquiring JP Forces.
It's guaranteed to be so tilting to your opponent that I'd call it tech for the Miracles mirror...:wink:

[B88]

i don't knwo if someone might be intrested, but i've started a primer on Mentor Daze Miracle here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31468-Mentor-Miracle

check out! :tongue:

[Quasim0ff]

I'm 100% getting the worst looking cards on magic online. That place is so tilting already, might as well go all out.

Unrelated: Anuraag Das (Rover) (Twitch.tv/anzi104) is playing vs Jarvis Yu (Snoopy) (Twitch.tv/jarvisyu) pretty soon.
It's gonna be epic.

Sendt fra min ONEPLUS A3003 med Tapatalk

[oarsman]

I never change up my versions of cards, but I think you guys are crazy for hating on the new stuff. I think they are cool. If they came in non-foils I would actually consider playing them.

[Cipher]

I never change up my versions of cards, but I think you guys are crazy for hating on the new stuff. I think they are cool. If they came in non-foils I would actually consider playing them.
I'm a big fan of most of the masterpieces. These ones just are impossible to read, and the artwork looks like computer-generated. Almost like Diablo 3 screenshots.

[Agrippa91]

What do you guys think is the best finisher/comeback card against a stifle delver player (in my case grixis). Jace seems bad because of Pyroblast, Entreat sucks against stifle and flusterstorm and Mentor is often times bad because it's pretty bad in topdeck mode and doesn't stop Delver/DRS.

I mean I get it that any of these cards can finish off Grixis when Miracles has them in a lock already, but often times Miracles needs a more proactive card to stem the bleeding, otherwise Delver just 1-for-1s them and wins because it doesn't play out all its lands and thus generally has way more spells in hand.

Any thoughts?

[CutthroatCasual]

What do you guys think is the best finisher/comeback card against a stifle delver player (in my case grixis). Jace seems bad because of Pyroblast, Entreat sucks against stifle and flusterstorm and Mentor is often times bad because it's pretty bad in topdeck mode and doesn't stop Delver/DRS.

I mean I get it that any of these cards can finish off Grixis when Miracles has them in a lock already, but often times Miracles needs a more proactive card to stem the bleeding, otherwise Delver just 1-for-1s them and wins because it doesn't play out all its lands and thus generally has way more spells in hand.

Any thoughts?

Resolve a mid-game Mentor with instant-speed spells in hand and then just wait for them to pop removal?

Remember, they can only play 4 Stifles so if the spend all their time Stifling Terminus triggers and the using their countermagic to prevent you from putting them back on top (or resolving one that they don't have the Stifle for) then the coast is clear for ETA.

It's a tough MU, but I would probably go for the ETA kill over Mentor in this case.

[Poron]

Pyroclasm and Keranos

[Pische]

Hello fellas, I found myself in times of trouble when I asked myself "What would Joe Cool do?"
The matter was my sideboard plan, specifically vs bug decks.
Here's my current list:

1 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 predict
1 counterspell
4 force of will
3 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
3 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement
1 engineered explosives
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

Current sideboard:
3 cliques
3 flusterstorm
4 reb/pyro
2 surgical
2 wear/tear
1 kozilek return

I switched to predict + entreats 2 weeks ago, coming from Angelo's list and I really like how the deck performs against bug decks, especially by blanking their abrupt decays.
That's why I would like to switch away from the beloved cliques. ANT is less common than before and my plan vs bug would be to make their decays a dead card.

What cards could fit the slot of the cliques, being strong vs combo and mirror matches?
Cards I'm considering (but I welcoming accept suggestions:

- Counterspell
- The fourth CB
- The fifth REB
- From the ashes (this would not really go in the slot, but I would like to find a place for this card)
- Moat, Humility or other funny enchantments
- Keranos (not really an option, but I love the card)

Thanks in advance to the clergy.

[Hanni]

What do you guys think is the best finisher/comeback card against a stifle delver player (in my case grixis). Jace seems bad because of Pyroblast, Entreat sucks against stifle and flusterstorm and Mentor is often times bad because it's pretty bad in topdeck mode and doesn't stop Delver/DRS.

I mean I get it that any of these cards can finish off Grixis when Miracles has them in a lock already, but often times Miracles needs a more proactive card to stem the bleeding, otherwise Delver just 1-for-1s them and wins because it doesn't play out all its lands and thus generally has way more spells in hand.

Any thoughts?

Vedalken Shackles.

[Jeff]

Vedalken Shackles.

God I wish. Fuckin' Abrupt Decay man. There are still a few matchups where shackles is insane, but far too few to justify using the sideboard slot for it.

[Poron]

with Abrupt Decay, Ancient Grudge and Null Rod around.

ooook

Keranos, trust me. You just fear the counter on the cast and then you win with it and a couple of sweepers

[Jeff]

Keranos, trust me. You just fear the counter on the cast and then you win with it and a couple of sweepers

I have played Keranos against miracles in other, shitty decks. Card is amazing in the matchup if it resolves. Back when I was doing it Miracles wasn't playing 4 REBs, but it's still possible to force through resolution of a big spell if you need to, and I do like not dying to the infinite REBs like Jace does.

[Poron]

yes you have to set up its casting and then it's pretty much done, but that nowadays needs CB Top with 1cc on top and couple of counters in hand before jamming it.

Great card against both 4c Delver, TNN-Leovold Sultai, Sultai Shardless or Delver version and Miracle.

It dodges Pierce and Snare and it's impossible to destroy once on the battlefield.

It fears Cspell and FoW.

I wouldn't play more than 1 honestly. 2 Pyroclasm are possibly necessary to live enough to see it.

[lordofthepit]

Hello fellas, I found myself in times of trouble when I asked myself "What would Joe Cool do?"

Joe Cool would put up an appropriate avatar picture in his profile.

[FZA]

Is anyone still trying out Gideon for the mirror or has that pretty much been abandoned?

The mirror nowadays feels so dependent on red blasts; it would be nice to have a win condition that dodges it, and isn't easy to answer like Mentor.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Both Gideon and Elspeth, KE are good. Although Elspeth might be better vs BGx decks.

As for Clique, it probably doesn't hurt boarding in the Cliques vs BGx decks. It is less committal when trying to keep the BGx opponent's honest.

If they see a sea of Predicts game 1 against you, they are probably savvy enough to board out all their Abrupt Decays. In which case, I'm sure they are just dead vs Clique if they boarded out their Decays. If they do keep them in, just be glad that you didnt tap out on your own turn for Counterbalance.

[FZA]

Both Gideon and Elspeth, KE are good. Although Elspeth might be better vs BGx decks.

As for Clique, it probably doesn't hurt boarding in the Cliques vs BGx decks. It is less committal when trying to keep the BGx opponent's honest.

If they see a sea of Predicts game 1 against you, they are probably savvy enough to board out all their Abrupt Decays. In which case, I'm sure they are just dead vs Clique if they boarded out their Decays. If they do keep them in, just be glad that you didnt tap out on your own turn for Counterbalance.

Why do you say Elspeth is better against BUG?

Big fan of Elspeth btw, I just feel like she's been outclassed by Gideon a bit, but would love an excuse to run with Elspeth XD

I agree that Clique is good against BUG. Clique getting decayed is not that big of a deal if you cast it on their EOT.

It gets red blasted, sure. But "it gets red blasted" is the becoming the new "dies to doom blade" in this thread.

How many forces do you guys usually side out against BUG/4c Czech pile type decks? They're nice for countering high value cards like Jace/Garruk/Library. But you certainly don't want to get flooded on them.

[Hanni]

Elspeth is better at slaying opposing Planeswalkers because of the flying.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Why do you say Elspeth is better against BUG?

Because in certain circumstances Elspeth can trade with other Planeswalkers in the face of opposing creatures. Granted you need to have played Elspeth first.

I could be entirely wrong in this case and that Gideon is just better by force, but it felt like when being forced "to do nothing," Elspeth is improving her loyalty while Gideon's ceiling is just make a 2/2 and opportunistically an Emblem.

[phg22]

For whatever its worth, Elspeth runs into incidental mentor hate like Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night worse than Gideon

[Pische]

Joe Cool would put up an appropriate avatar picture in his profile.

I fixed it.

[TheSlipperiestBogle]

Hey, guys! Been a lurker for a while, first time poster!

I've been following/watching Legacy for a while now, and I've decided to dive in. I've chosen to adopt Miracles, as it seems to be one of (if not the) strongest decks right now, and offers a good way to learn the meta, while also having a super high ceiling that rewards practice and promotes growth.

With all that being said, I am technically "new" to Legacy, so I was wondering what list you all would recommend for someone starting out. Of note, I'll be moving soon, so I'd be walking into an unknown meta, so I wouldn't be able to gear the deck super-hard to any prevalent threats, at least main-deck-wise.

I've definitely watched/studied Joe Lossett's list the most, but my understanding is that, although he believes it's the strongest iteration, it takes the most skill and familiarity to pilot excellently, which it requires in order to be a better choice than more stock lists. I'd definitely like to have an Entreat or two in my 75, but I'm not sure I'm ready for 2x Venser and 3x Clique yet.

So what do you all recommend for a good starting point in my Miracles journey?? Thanks in advance!

[twndomn]

So what do you all recommend for a good starting point in my Miracles journey?? Thanks in advance!

As with any control decks in any format, control deck is just a bad starting point for a format. A control deck requires you to trade 1-for-1 correctly and understand what to counter in each MU. This was true with Sphinx Revelation Standard while back as it is true in Legacy. In other words, Miracles should not be your first Legacy deck.

If you insist, then you should try the 2~4 Mentor build first. Legend Miracles popularized by Lossett has the longest learning curve of all Miracles and most Miracles builds have long learning curve comparing to other Legacy decks to begin with. Please learn to operate with SDT efficiently and to avoid draws first, before you try to make good use of Karakas.

[Nestalim]

Hello fellas, I found myself in times of trouble when I asked myself "What would Joe Cool do?"
The matter was my sideboard plan, specifically vs bug decks.
Here's my current list:

1 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 predict
1 counterspell
4 force of will
3 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
3 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement
1 engineered explosives
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

Current sideboard:
3 cliques
3 flusterstorm
4 reb/pyro
2 surgical
2 wear/tear
1 kozilek return

I switched to predict + entreats 2 weeks ago, coming from Angelo's list and I really like how the deck performs against bug decks, especially by blanking their abrupt decays.
That's why I would like to switch away from the beloved cliques. ANT is less common than before and my plan vs bug would be to make their decays a dead card.

What cards could fit the slot of the cliques, being strong vs combo and mirror matches?
Cards I'm considering (but I welcoming accept suggestions:

- Counterspell
- The fourth CB
- The fifth REB
- From the ashes (this would not really go in the slot, but I would like to find a place for this card)
- Moat, Humility or other funny enchantments
- Keranos (not really an option, but I love the card)

Thanks in advance to the clergy.


Even with Decay Clique is fine. But I don't play it anymore and have +1 Gideon +1 From the Ashes +1 Snapcaster

[Minniehajj]

I fixed it.

You should try to not use the same one as someone else....

[Pische]

You should try to not use the same one as someone else....

God, I thought it was an easier task.
I'm searching...
...found one!

[say no to scurvy]

So uhh 448 players in legacy euro champs... predict miracles mirror in the finals.

[Nicklas]

Too bad event was capped at 450. :(
Combined they played 3 out of 4 matches in the Top8 (excluding the final of course) against Elves.

[beta]

With miracles going back to playing predict and entreat, how would you then deal with a mentor in the mirror after board?

I also see the trend of playing 1 sb snapcaster mage, may i know what matches do you usually bring it in against?

[gh0st_b1rd]

With miracles going back to playing predict and entreat, how would you then deal with a mentor in the mirror after board?

The way you usually deal with Delvers: fight a counter war over it with a Terminus on top of your library.

Spending three mana for a dude on your main phase is very exploitable.


I also see the trend of playing 1 sb snapcaster mage, may i know what matches do you usually bring it in against?

Any match up where having even more copies of key Instants is good.

Its also just a general good card that should be maindeck but isnt for space constraints. It's a common practice to always bring in general good cards after board for many normal decks in Magic only because those cards are better than some of your maindeck cards in certain match ups.

So yeah, you will always board in the SBed Snapcaster Mage.

[princeofperasia]

Unfortunately I was only able to record one game of the finals since they hid the match in the corner of the restricted access part of the room (there was one other observer...thanks BoM :rolleyes:), but for what it's worth here's the final game between Anders and Thomas (https://youtu.be/SkpN25h87nI).

Wish I could have got the first game on camera as well -- it looked like a real slug fest. Otherwise, congratulations to both pilots.

[beta]

The way you usually deal with Delvers: fight a counter war over it with a Terminus on top of your library.

Spending three mana for a dude on your main phase is very exploitable.



Usually after sb-ing, we will be removing all the plows and terminus. Back then in lists that maindeck mentors, if your opponent resolves the monk, the only solution is for you to fight toe to toe with another one of your own. Of course the priority would be still on getting the countertop resolving. But for list without maindeck mentor and playing against the mirror with the mentor, you advocate leaving the terminus in? if so, what's the correct number?

Any other preps have views on this?

[Gros]

Usually after sb-ing, we will be removing all the plows and terminus. Back then in lists that maindeck mentors, if your opponent resolves the monk, the only solution is for you to fight toe to toe with another one of your own. Of course the priority would be still on getting the countertop resolving. But for list without maindeck mentor and playing against the mirror with the mentor, you advocate leaving the terminus in? if so, what's the correct number?
Any other preps have views on this?
If you dont play a 4 mentors build keeping in 2 Terminus is fine , otherwise i suggest cutting all 4

[kingtk3]

Still on the topic "Legend miracle VS Mentor miracle", if you were on the legend side and given that you're playing a list similar to this

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15110&d=291524&f=LE

how would you side? I feel it's more complicated than if you were to play mirror with the mentor build, since you have to keep in at least 2 terminuses in case your opponent goes mentoring.
Moreover, and I would say especially, the real problem is that mentor isn't blue so REBs don't kill him and we need to keep a number of terminuses and swords, while our threats are all blue (but 1 entreat) and our opponent can take advantage from this sideing out all of his removals since Rebs double as that against us.

I was thinking about this plan

+4 REBs, +2 flusterstorm, +1 supreme verdict, +1 entreat
-3 terminus, -3 swords to plowshares, -1 venser, -1 plains (or karakas)

but I would like to know your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks.

[princeofperasia]

Still on the topic "Legend miracle VS Mentor miracle", if you were on the legend side and given that you're playing a list similar to this

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15110&d=291524&f=LE

how would you side? I feel it's more complicated than if you were to play mirror with the mentor build, since you have to keep in at least 2 terminuses in case your opponent goes mentoring.
Moreover, and I would say especially, the real problem is that mentor isn't blue so REBs don't kill him and we need to keep a number of terminuses and swords, while our threats are all blue (but 1 entreat) and our opponent can take advantage from this sideing out all of his removals since Rebs double as that against us.

I was thinking about this plan

+4 REBs, +2 flusterstorm, +1 supreme verdict, +1 entreat
-3 terminus, -3 swords to plowshares, -1 venser, -1 plains (or karakas)

but I would like to know your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks.

You probably shouldn't board out any cards that make up the Legends part of Legends Miracles.

I'm no expert, but something like -4 Swords, -2 Plains, -2 Terminus / +4 Reb, +3 Fluster, +1 Verdict

[Echinoderm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/638ws6/torrential_gearhulk_and_aftermath_ruling_from/dfsccuj/

New function change to CMC for split cards. Wear/Tear takes a hit.

[filln]

EDIT: Beaten to the punch!

[CutthroatCasual]

Well that fucking sucks. But on the bright side we get another CMC 3, and our decks have always lacked that as a flip.

[phg22]

The whole point of cavern in the Legends build initially was uncounterable Vensers in the mirror to break CB / Top. Karakas is nuts when you expect the opponent to only have blast to answer your creatures. Boarding either out is one of the worst things you could do.

[kingtk3]

You probably shouldn't board out any cards that make up the Legends part of Legends Miracles.

I'm no expert, but something like -4 Swords, -2 Plains, -2 Terminus / +4 Reb, +3 Fluster, +1 Verdict


The whole point of cavern in the Legends build initially was uncounterable Vensers in the mirror to break CB / Top. Karakas is nuts when you expect the opponent to only have blast to answer your creatures. Boarding either out is one of the worst things you could do.

Thank you for your advices: I was skeptical to side karakas out too, my only doubt was about getting double white but, since we don't need it right away, it should not be a problem.

Is it alright to side out 2 plains? Would 20 lands be enough? One way to loose the control mirror is to fall behind on mana and being unable to cast multiple spells in the turn when it counts.

Thanks again for your advices.

[EDIT]: Against which decks would you side in the second Entreat?

[Pische]

Is it alright to side out 2 plains? Would 20 lands be enough?

In the non legend build its very common to go down as far as to 17 lands in the longer matchups that don't envolve wastelands. I think that spell density is far more important to grind a game based on card advantage and quality.

[Poron]

What about this?
1 colored 4 mana spell, flash, Vindicate. It can't be targeted by both Decay and REB

Huge in the mirror
Dodges everything but Wear/Tear and Counterspell

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Cast%2BOut%2B%255BAKH%255D.jpg

CONS: it doesn't flashback, it can be removed

[CutthroatCasual]

Interesting card for sure, and the ability to cycle is a plus. But I think we have plenty of non-creature hate already in CJ and EE and W/T. This would only be good in the mirror for say a Jace or CB but we still play REBs. In the mirror I'd rather have the :r: card that would kill anything I'd want to exile with this. Plus, remember the thing comes back if the opponent can remove this enchantment, whereas REB kills it dead.

[Whitefaces]

Yeah, a 1cmc card seems like a much better way to deal with a CB in the mirror.

[Poron]

REB is not getting out of a CB lock this is.

[B88]

when the answer cost more than the threat it usually bad! :rolleyes:

[Poron]

when the answer cost more than the threat it usually bad! :rolleyes:

the answer has flash. The threath hasn't.

Anyway, yes, to counter it on the stack just works better

[CutthroatCasual]

Here's my current SB:

1x CPriest
1x Moat
2x Mentor
1x RIP
2x Fstorm
1x Blood Moon
3x Pblast
1x Meddling Mage
2x W/T
1x KReturn

If I'm going to a semi-known meta where I can expect at least DnT, Dredge, ANT, Miracles, Elves, and some flavor of Delver (usually Grixis), and I have seen Infect, MUD, and Eldrazi and this store in the past, what should the SB look like?

[Poron]

have you seen BoM meta? so heterogeneous

Miracle was less than 10% of the whole market

[l33twash0r]

have you seen BoM meta? so heterogeneous

Miracle was less than 10% of the whole market

European meta always loved BUG decks.

[Poron]

that's 4 Abrupt Decay to face every round :eek:

Mirran Crusader meta tech!

Also!!! http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials

Survives to Terminus and swings for 4. Blanks fatties like Death's Shadow, Emrakul and Griselbrand.

Eventually he wins the game against everything that can't Decay if you have CTop or CSpells around.

new 3cc toy?

[prepare4robots]

that's 4 Abrupt Decay to face every round :eek:

Mirran Crusader meta tech!

Also!!! http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28660-gideon-of-the-trials

Survives to Terminus and swings for 4. Blanks fatties like Death's Shadow, Emrakul and Griselbrand.

Eventually he wins the game against everything that can't Decay if you have CTop or CSpells around.

new 3cc toy?

The fact that decay destroys it, means it's not the win condition I'd want to run. Mentor and Entreat get around decay by going wide. This just dies.

[phg22]

I'm not ready to make bold statements on new Gideon, but he certainly warrants at least some discussion. His first ability makes him much better as a defensive option than EtA or Mentor in the general case. His emblem doesn't affect the board and appears mostly useless in the fair matchups, but against many combo decks, it will give them some problems. While a deck like ANT could just decay him before (or after) going for lethal tendrils, more permanents that must be removed before you can lose is a good thing. A few negatives do standout to me. He costs WW, which isn't always free, and is absolute garbage in the mirror. It doesn't do anything I'd want out of a walker there, though I guess most people are removing any card that touches him in the mirror. So is it good? Maybe, possible SB if anything, likely not good enough, certainly worth some discussion.

[lordofthepit]

Thoughts on this list? http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15174&f=LE

I feel like From the Ashes had been replacing Back to Basics as the non-basic hoser of choice, but apparently, it's far from a consensus opinion.

[phg22]

The biggest hits against From the Ashes are requiring red mana and costing 4. Also a lot of people don't know it exists (almost always my opponent reads it). FtA can be problematic for those of us that play 2 Volc in matchups were we need other red cards, since basically has to hit one. I prefer FtA since its nearly impossible to have the drew only duals, can't play nonbasic hate problem and fake costs less than 4 when it replaces the lands you tapped with untapped basics.

But mostly I think people are stubborn or unaware card exists.

[Echohots]

How do you approach the food chain matchup? I generally have a hard time with it, bringing in the usual 4x rebs, 2 wear/tear, snapcaster, and 2 flusterstorms. I side out swords and leave a small amount of terminus in (Leovold and value dudes are a thing). I play a 3 predict, no mentor, list. Guy at my lgs actually sides in 4x hymns and it's a huge beating. Thoughts? I really don't want to play very narrow cards like cannonist, etc, if it can be helped.

[hyp3r1on]

The biggest hits against From the Ashes are requiring red mana and costing 4. Also a lot of people don't know it exists (almost always my opponent reads it). FtA can be problematic for those of us that play 2 Volc in matchups were we need other red cards, since basically has to hit one. I prefer FtA since its nearly impossible to have the drew only duals, can't play nonbasic hate problem and fake costs less than 4 when it replaces the lands you tapped with untapped basics.

But mostly I think people are stubborn or unaware card exists.

That Joe Cool Miracles list was mine. I am not stubborn or unaware of From the Ashes existence.

[Rascalyote]

I'm not a miracles player but a lot of the times I see From the Ashes cast it just feels worse than Ruination. Obviously the upside is when you have a ton of non-basics and get to find basics while your opponent finds nothing, but that rarely happens it seems.

[Sibelius]

Hey there! Fancy hearing from Anders Thiesen about how to Sideboard with Miracles? He's kinda good at the deck.....

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/i-believe-in-miracles-part-4-game-2/

Sib

(ps congrats Anders on your 2nd place!)

[mike1987]

I know most decks are going entreat as their win condition in the main now.

I am still undecided whether or not to add mentor in the side. 1st at BOM has it, 2nd at BOM doesnt. Would like your views on having mentor in the sideboard, i know it increases the clock and all and provide an alternative win con, Would like to hear the merits and demerits of the monk.

[CutthroatCasual]

Been playing 2 Mentors in my SB for like a year and I really like him there. I don't think he's a wincon that's good in all situations unlike ETA which is the best finisher if you're playing a more controlling-style of Miracles. If you want to play a midrange-style of Miracles, the Mentor is better in the MD. But he's definitely worth having in the 75 in any build since he makes unfavorable MUs better.

[mike1987]

Been playing 2 Mentors in my SB for like a year and I really like him there. I don't think he's a wincon that's good in all situations unlike ETA which is the best finisher if you're playing a more controlling-style of Miracles. If you want to play a midrange-style of Miracles, the Mentor is better in the MD. But he's definitely worth having in the 75 in any build since he makes unfavorable MUs better.

Thanks for your reply. I understand one usually board in mentors where u want to be more aggressive against grindier matches, maybe matchups like burn, 12 post, mirror,

But will you board it in against bug decks for eg aluren or food chain? Usually one will remove counterbalance from the sideboard which makes mentor more vulnerable to decay anyway, so why not just grind them out with predict and go off the top with entreat?

What is your opinion of mentor in delver or lands as well?

Thanks.

[Quasim0ff]

Thanks for your reply. I understand one usually board in mentors where u want to be more aggressive against grindier matches, maybe matchups like burn, 12 post, mirror,

But will you board it in against bug decks for eg aluren or food chain? Usually one will remove counterbalance from the sideboard which makes mentor more vulnerable to decay anyway, so why not just grind them out with predict and go off the top with entreat?

What is your opinion of mentor in delver or lands as well?

Thanks.

Mentor is INSANE vs Delver, how will they ever beat him? You suddenly have to fronts they have to fight you, cb as well as mentor.

Mentor is good aluren and 'fine' vs food chain.

[Just-Roll]

Hey
during the last weeks my local meta changed a lot after several players decided to play food chain. Lists are looking somewhat like this with minor changes in the sideboard, mostly - Hydroblast +some form of discard.

20 LANDS (4 basics)
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Scourge
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Walking Ballista
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Ponder
4 Food Chain

SIDEBOARD
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague
2 Hydroblast
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

I'm still not sure if it's just a new deck and I'm losing a lot to it because the lack of expirience I bring to the table when it comes to this match up or if my sideboarding ist strictly not on point. Speaking non local the deck is not played that often so I would be interested in any suggestions to sideboard with my board I'm using atm and any suggestions to add some solutions for local tournaments. The meta aside from lots of Foodchain is Miracles, Lands, Drazi, Storm, some Delver and Elves (and sometimes Reanimator or SnT).

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
5 Island
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Predict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment

15 Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain
1 From the Ashes / Moat

[CutthroatCasual]

You'll probably want more W/T but other than that Food Chain seems like slightly unfavorable MU for us. Good thing they play like a bad BUG Midrange deck when they don't have their eponymous enchantment (like Aluren except with less value).

[Whitefaces]

I'd be interested in seeing how people board vs Food Chain, if they have tables handy?

[TheArchitect]

Mentor is INSANE vs Delver, how will they ever beat him? You suddenly have to fronts they have to fight you, cb as well as mentor.

Mentor is good aluren and 'fine' vs food chain.

Mentor is much better against delver where they have a hard time killing it, it can act as a terminus (stopping their attacks) and unlike entreat doesn't get hit by fluster/pierce. Mentor comes in against basically any matchup where you just either 1) want more threats. 2) want cheaper threats. 3) need to end the game faster and don't mind tapping out early.

So I do bring it in against basically all flavors of delver decks, BUG deck (delver, food chain, etc), leave it out against spell based combo, and vs midrange/control/prison.



I'd be interested in seeing how people board vs Food Chain, if they have tables handy?

Food Chain:
-4 STP
-3 CB
-1 Plains
-2 FoW
+4 Blast
+1 Mountain
+1 Snap
+2 W/T
+2 mentor

This is how I have been boarding against Food Chain, over the few weeks I have been playing cockatrice a lot more, so not the most skilled opponents, but I have played food chain 6 or 7 times and only lost once.

Taking out just 2 FoW probably looks sketchy, but I do this in some matchups where I actually don't want to see FoW till turn 3+ and I usually only ever want to see 1 in a game. Food Chain is this type of deck. Pre-board we have a very hard time answering the cards they play, but post board we actually lots of answers to everything they do without needing FoW.

[Poron]

the only way to keep Griffins at bay is to resolve a good ETA.

The don't even need to play Food Chain to win.

They resolve a simple M.Fate and cast and recast Griffins/Scourge.

Worst case scenario DRS will exile them again from the GY.

Definitly a bad matchup imho. Additionally they play 4AD and EE for tokens.

[TheArchitect]

the only way to keep Griffins at bay is to resolve a good ETA.

The don't even need to play Food Chain to win.

They resolve a simple M.Fate and cast and recast Griffins/Scourge.

Worst case scenario DRS will exile them again from the GY.

Definitly a bad matchup imho. Additionally they play 4AD and EE for tokens.

Game 1 is rough for this reason. Manipulate fate and griffon are MUST COUNTERS. Game 2/3 you get 8 Red blast effects (with snapcaster), 2 counterspells and 2+ fow so neither shoulder ever resolve. If they do, terminus is also an option. In all my post games, we actually get to be the aggressor since they have a much harder time answering mentor, entreat and jace than we have answering their few cards that actually matter.

[Poron]

yes, but they hqve inevitability and unless we manage to land a fast, very fast ETA or Mentor we are done for.

In this matchup Meekstone would be great.

No sorry, they play 4 Decays

[TheArchitect]

yes, but they hqve inevitability and unless we manage to land a fast, very fast ETA or Mentor we are done for.


This is true for game 1 yes, but in game 2-3 WE have the inevitability since we have redundant answers to literally everything they do, more sources of card advantage (predict, snap, jace) to their Manipulate fate and we have more "must answers" than they do.

[FZA]

How do you guys board against ANT with a typical 4 Predict list?

[gh0st_b1rd]

How do you guys board against ANT with a typical 4 Predict list?

-4 Terminus
-2 Plains
-1 Council's Judgment
-4 Swords to Plowshares

+2 Surgical Extraction
+4 REBs
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 EE

If you see Xantid Swarm instead of bringing in EE and 2 REBs leave in 3 Swords to Plowshares.

Thats how I would assume the boarding works out at least.

Also, 3x Flusterstorms in the SB and 4 REBs seem excessive. Is it wrong to trim the 3rd Flusterstorm and 4th REB for other tech cards?

[FZA]

-4 Terminus
-2 Plains
-1 Council's Judgment
-4 Swords to Plowshares

+2 Surgical Extraction
+4 REBs
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 EE

If you see Xantid Swarm instead of bringing in EE and 2 REBs leave in 3 Swords to Plowshares.

Thats how I would assume the boarding works out at least.

Also, 3x Flusterstorms in the SB and 4 REBs seem excessive. Is it wrong to trim the 3rd Flusterstorm and 4th REB for other tech cards?

Do you not play Clique? Or do you just choose to not bring it in?

I usually leave in a couple StP to deal with Swarms, and a couple Terminus and EE to deal with Empty the Warrens. Could be wrong but I prefer not to be completely cold to those cards In g2.

I certainly don't think it's wrong to trim down on Flusters and REBs in favor of more targeted hate as long as you have good reason for doing so. Although I'd rarely want less than 3 RRBs.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Do you not play Clique? Or do you just choose to not bring it in?

I usually leave in a couple StP to deal with Swarms, and a couple Terminus and EE to deal with Empty the Warrens. Could be wrong but I prefer not to be completely cold to those cards In g2.

I certainly don't think it's wrong to trim down on Flusters and REBs in favor of more targeted hate as long as you have good reason for doing so. Although I'd rarely want less than 3 RRBs.

I'm just riffing off of Anurag's list for boarding. I have 3 REBs, 2 Flusterstorms and 2 Cliques atm because my meta has a lot of different Show and Tell decks present. I mainly cut the 3rd Flusterstorm and 4th REB for tech cards vs those match ups.

Like you I tend to leave a lot of board control cards in post board incase something happens.

[mike1987]

Besides Thomas and Anders at BOM, i saw Johannes's placing at the top after the swiss rounds. Anyone can confirm he is on miracles and if so his decklist?:tongue:

[Whitefaces]

Besides Thomas and Anders at BOM, i saw Johannes's placing at the top after the swiss rounds. Anyone can confirm he is on miracles and if so his decklist?:tongue:

Yes he was on Miracles, I believe it was the same list as Thomas.

[Pdingo]

Against food chain i keep in all swords..i think it's very important to handle shaman and leovold..just terminus isnt enough.. for example i try to blast griffin so they cant play them again..if they have shaman they just dont care..

[Whitefaces]

Food Chain:
-4 STP
-3 CB
-1 Plains
-2 FoW
+4 Blast
+1 Mountain
+1 Snap
+2 W/T
+2 mentor

This is how I have been boarding against Food Chain, over the few weeks I have been playing cockatrice a lot more, so not the most skilled opponents, but I have played food chain 6 or 7 times and only lost once.

Taking out just 2 FoW probably looks sketchy, but I do this in some matchups where I actually don't want to see FoW till turn 3+ and I usually only ever want to see 1 in a game. Food Chain is this type of deck. Pre-board we have a very hard time answering the cards they play, but post board we actually lots of answers to everything they do without needing FoW.

Thanks, this looks pretty good. I totally agree with you on the number of Force of Will. Only thing is I think I'd also leave in 2 copies of Swords to Plowshares for Deathrite Shaman, Snap is important in the matchup. Mountain probably isn't needed since they don't play Wasteland? Not sure where the last cut comes from, but that'll depend on the MD. If there's an EE I'd take that out.


Against food chain i keep in all swords..i think it's very important to handle shaman and leovold..just terminus isnt enough.. for example i try to blast griffin so they cant play them again..if they have shaman they just dont care..

Leovold can be Pyroblasted, but I agree I think we want a couple of copies of StP for Shaman.

[TheArchitect]

Thanks, this looks pretty good. I totally agree with you on the number of Force of Will. Only thing is I think I'd also leave in 2 copies of Swords to Plowshares for Deathrite Shaman, Snap is important in the matchup. Mountain probably isn't needed since they don't play Wasteland? Not sure where the last cut comes from, but that'll depend on the MD. If there's an EE I'd take that out.



Leovold can be Pyroblasted, but I agree I think we want a couple of copies of StP for Shaman.

You could cut all the FoW to keep in 2 swords. I agree about DRS being important to deal with. Mountain is just getting swapped for a plains because I am bringing in a fair number of red cards but still want 20 lands in my deck, if you don't play mountain in your SB, just take out a land to go down to 20 total in game 2/3. I don't have EE in my MD, but I agree that it is too narrow for this matchup.

[janluis1]

¡SOME INSIGHT NEEDED!

I played miracles in the pre treasure cruise era before switching to delver variants and now I want to get back playing with the deck.
I noticed skimming various lists on tcdecks and mtgtop8 that nowadays Vendilion clique is not played as much. Are there any reason for this?
Was one of my favourite cards back in the day.... In order to decide which configuration to start with I need to pick up a list, and I am not sure which one to pick as the majority seems different respect each other.

Any help will be much appreciated

[FZA]

¡SOME INSIGHT NEEDED!

I played miracles in the pre treasure cruise era before switching to delver variants and now I want to get back playing with the deck.
I noticed skimming various lists on tcdecks and mtgtop8 that nowadays Vendilion clique is not played as much. Are there any reason for this?
Was one of my favourite cards back in the day.... In order to decide which configuration to start with I need to pick up a list, and I am not sure which one to pick as the majority seems different respect each other.

Any help will be much appreciated

Clique is still solid it's just usually played in the SB these days. It's not great game 1 because it turns on dead removal spells in your opponent's hand. it's much stronger against combo with no removal, or against fair decks that side out their removal for g2.

[drocker23]

so.....

with all these decks playing Leovold, Emissary of Trest at the SCG Tour, that card makes Predict look pretty silly doesn't it? Perhaps we'd be better off with something like Spell Snare or Spell Pierce added in it's place? Perhaps it's time to bring back at least a 1 of Pyroblast into the main deck again? I'm leaning more towards the Pyroblast because of the uptick in True-Name Nemesis as well. I suppose the 2nd counterspell could also be played instead of the Pyroblast, but a maindeck Pyroblast would also free up a sideboard slot.

I'd probably start off with a maindeck that looks like

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroblast

[Philipp2293]

so.....

with all these decks playing Leovold, Emissary of Trest at the SCG Tour, that card makes Predict look pretty silly doesn't it? Perhaps we'd be better off with something like Spell Snare or Spell Pierce added in it's place?

It doesn't - Leovold Bug/4C MUs play out rather grindy, so without Leovold on the field you want Predict all the time. I'm also not seing how Snare/Pierce compete for the same slots? If you are actually concerned about the card itsself aswell as TNN, Pyroblast makes sense, but still I feel the deck has plenty of ways to answer both G1 even.

[Pische]

http://i.imgur.com/7mP3YDz.jpg

I hear these tokens help in the mirror match.

[Quasim0ff]

http://i.imgur.com/7mP3YDz.jpg

I hear these tokens help in the mirror match.

these are amaaaaaazing!

[neverhasit]

It doesn't - Leovold Bug/4C MUs play out rather grindy, so without Leovold on the field you want Predict all the time. I'm also not seing how Snare/Pierce compete for the same slots? If you are actually concerned about the card itsself aswell as TNN, Pyroblast makes sense, but still I feel the deck has plenty of ways to answer both G1 even.

Agreed - predict is one of our best cards in these matchups. T1 top -> T2 spin + something -> T3 reb a leo or tnn + predict is one of the best things we can be doing and usually translates to the w.

Snap predict also gives us late game play we wouldn't have otherwise to keep up with raw 2-1s.

[CutthroatCasual]

Congrats Eli Kassis taking down Open Worcester with Predict Miracles!

That g2 1-land keep was one of the loosest plays I've ever seen, topped only by Nate keeping a 0 lander with 2 Git Probes (for those of you not in the know, Git Probe is a trap when it comes to mulligan decisions).

[Echohots]

Congrats Eli Kassis taking down Open Worcester with Predict Miracles!

That g2 1-land keep was one of the loosest plays I've ever seen, topped only by Nate keeping a 0 lander with 2 Git Probes (for those of you not in the know, Git Probe is a trap when it comes to mulligan decisions).

Unexpectedly absent, 3 plains, 1 fluster, no basic mountain, rips instead of surgicals, bridge/moat split, 1 of clique and mentor sb, 3 volcs main, and 2 blood moons sb...lots of interesting choices and deviations from certain theories.

[twndomn]

Unexpectedly absent, 3 plains, 1 fluster, no basic mountain, rips instead of surgicals, bridge/moat split, 1 of clique and mentor sb, 3 volcs main, and 2 blood moons sb...lots of interesting choices and deviations from certain theories.

Listen to his trophy interview with Nick. He said it openly Absent is a bad card, should have been a counter.

[Minniehajj]

My good friend Thomas Mechin, winner of EU Eternal Weekend, finally got around to getting his report translated. Here is the English translation. Might still be rough in a few spots, but perfectly understandable: https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/1st-at-eternal-weekend-europe-2017/

[Patrunkenphat7]

I have heard and seen a lot of the Predict hype recently. It's worth pointing out that 80+% of the tier 1 Miracles players hopping on Predict and Entreat don't necessarily make it great right now; it skews results and makes everyone think that it's the best thing to do. While it certainly has merits, it's worth theory-crafting and discussing objectively rather than looking at the skewed results (which show the best Miracles players doing well per usual, nothing new there). This post isn't in response to anything in particular by the way - I've just noticed everyone riding the Predict train.

Interestingly, Legends seems more appealing right now than it used to be for several reasons. It's easy to point at oarsman's one unlucky run as a reason why it's not great right now, but if you look at the midrange and Miracles meta and low number of Dazes I think Legends is objectively a solid choice.

[oarsman]

I definitely got punked this weekend, no doubt about that. But that HAD to happen eventually. Oddly enough, I didn't play against a tier one deck during the open (although I wasn't in it for that long). I didn't do myself any favors either. For whatever reason I was off - I even forgot counterbalance was on the board at one point. I haven't done that in a couple years I don't think

I did play teferi in the board this weekend. Mostly it was intended to pick off leovolds and further dump on anyone trying to play blue against me. What it actually ended up doing is countering a bunch of rift bolts, which didn't matter since I got lit up by a fusillade of maindeck exquisite firecrafts.

[lordofthepit]

http://i.imgur.com/7mP3YDz.jpg

I hear these tokens help in the mirror match.

Where do we get these?

[CutthroatCasual]

no basic mountain, rips instead of surgicals, bridge/moat split, 1 of clique and mentor sb, and 2 blood moons sb...lots of interesting choices and deviations from certain theories.

Picking out these, they aren't deviations. The other things you mentioned though, yes, those are.

[Jeff]

I did play teferi in the board this weekend. Mostly it was intended to pick off leovolds and further dump on anyone trying to play blue against me.

I definitely want to try this now. Flashing in Teferi to block Leovold might be the play I want to make more than anything else right now. Sounds awesome.


What it actually ended up doing is countering a bunch of rift bolts, which didn't matter since I got lit up by a fusillade of maindeck exquisite firecrafts.

I don't understand why this isn't more common, honestly. I honestly think a good player with 4 maindeck firecrafts in their burn deck would be a force to be reckoned with in the current metagame. I just don't know many good players who want to play burn. That card is legitimately good enough that I think we probably overlooked Urza's Rage for years and it should've been seeing more play. The knowledge that there are uncounterable burn spells coming fundamentally shifts how the blue player has to play the burn matchup, and it's not a pleasant shift for blue. The matchup, like every matchup, is winnable, but it's more dangerous now than it used to be.

[Poron]

Urza's Rage + Snapcaster Mage was my favourite closure in high tide.

Also tutorable with Merchant Scroll

[koten]

I definitely got punked this weekend, no doubt about that. But that HAD to happen eventually. Oddly enough, I didn't play against a tier one deck during the open (although I wasn't in it for that long). I didn't do myself any favors either. For whatever reason I was off - I even forgot counterbalance was on the board at one point. I haven't done that in a couple years I don't think

I did play teferi in the board this weekend. Mostly it was intended to pick off leovolds and further dump on anyone trying to play blue against me. What it actually ended up doing is countering a bunch of rift bolts, which didn't matter since I got lit up by a fusillade of maindeck exquisite firecrafts.

Hey Joe, just wondering if you had an opinion on whether Predict is the real deal or if the results are being skewed by high level Miracle players simply winning as usual like patrunken is saying.

[hyp3r1on]

I finished 12th at SCG Worcester with the following list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112737

List felt very strong all weekend despite my losses. I've been a longtime naysayer of playing Predict but in the last month or so of testing I've grown to deeply respect it's place in Miracles. Especially with the growing popularity of non-Miracles control decks. I firmly believe the optimal number of predicts to be 2.5, but I ended up settling on 2 instead of 3 - mostly because I like having access to 2 Counterspells for large tournaments.

In general, especially on Day 2, the meta for this tournament felt fairly hostile to Miracles. Matchups were:

R1: Win 2-0 vs BUG Aluren
R2: Win 2-0 vs RG Lands
R3: Win 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
R4: Win 2-0 vs RG Lands
R5: Draw 1-1-1 vs Legends Miracles
R6: Loss 0-2 vs Food Chain
R7: Loss 1-2 vs Czech
R8: Win 2-0 vs UW Landstill
R9: Win 2-0 vs Elves
R10: BYE (Joe Cool Smile)
R11: Win 2-0 vs Edgar Magalhaes on Czech
R12: Win 2-1 vs DNT
R13: Loss 0-2 vs DNT
R14: Win 2-0 vs Danny Jessup on Mentor Miracles
R15: Win 2-0 vs Brendan Dicandio on Legends Miracles

In response to my dear friend Patrunkenphat, I believe Legends Miracles to be a pretty weak variation in current Legacy for a variety of reasons. The value you get out of the Legendary creature package is just so lackluster against decks like Czech and other delverless control decks. That's why a lot of non-Legends lists have cut Cliques all together. Sure, the creature package is very nice against say Sneak and Show but even in the mirror, having raw card advantage (which is also relevant against a lot of what the format is trying to do) is imo more desirable.

[Echohots]

I finished 12th at SCG Worcester with the following list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112737

List felt very strong all weekend despite my losses. I've been a longtime naysayer of playing Predict but in the last month or so of testing I've grown to deeply respect it's place in Miracles. Especially with the growing popularity of non-Miracles control decks. I firmly believe the optimal number of predicts to be 2.5, but I ended up settling on 2 instead of 3 - mostly because I like having access to 2 Counterspells for large tournaments.

In general, especially on Day 2, the meta for this tournament felt fairly hostile to Miracles. Matchups were:

R1: Win 2-0 vs BUG Aluren
R2: Win 2-0 vs RG Lands
R3: Win 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
R4: Win 2-0 vs RG Lands
R5: Draw 1-1-1 vs Legends Miracles
R6: Loss 0-2 vs Food Chain
R7: Loss 1-2 vs Czech
R8: Win 2-0 vs UW Landstill
R9: Win 2-0 vs Elves
R10: BYE (Joe Cool Smile)
R11: Win 2-0 vs Edgar Magalhaes on Czech
R12: Win 2-1 vs DNT
R13: Loss 0-2 vs DNT
R14: Win 2-0 vs Danny Jessup on Mentor Miracles
R15: Win 2-0 vs Brendan Dicandio on Legends Miracles

In response to my dear friend Patrunkenphat, I believe Legends Miracles to be a pretty weak variation in current Legacy for a variety of reasons. The value you get out of the Legendary creature package is just so lackluster against decks like Czech and other delverless control decks. That's why a lot of non-Legends lists have cut Cliques all together. Sure, the creature package is very nice against say Sneak and Show but even in the mirror, having raw card advantage (which is also relevant against a lot of what the format is trying to do) is imo more desirable.
Congrats on the finish! Do you have any notes on your matches, sbs ins and outs, or any real moments that stand out from your matches? Also, the r10 bye must have felt great.

[kombatkiwi]

Urza's Rage + Snapcaster Mage was my favourite closure in high tide.

Also tutorable with Merchant Scroll


Merchant Scroll

1U
Sorcery
Search your library for a blue instant card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

[Poron]

well, I used to play Solidarity instead of Spiral Tide :laugh::cool:

Cunning Wish surely works

[Poron]

-4 Terminus
-2 Plains
-1 Council's Judgment
-4 Swords to Plowshares

+2 Surgical Extraction
+4 REBs
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 EE

If you see Xantid Swarm instead of bringing in EE and 2 REBs leave in 3 Swords to Plowshares.

Thats how I would assume the boarding works out at least.

Also, 3x Flusterstorms in the SB and 4 REBs seem excessive. Is it wrong to trim the 3rd Flusterstorm and 4th REB for other tech cards?

then they own you with a Squire. Already been there already done that.

Wise storm player will always have a transformational SB against control. Phyrexian Obliterator can be landed on turn 0 with DRitual. I always keep Izzet Staticaster and 2 Terminus there for both Goblins and surprises

Have you seen the eternal format legacy winner?
2 ETA + 3 Mentors + 2 Jace in the 75

to be full of WC is definitly an advantage. Too many decks now have inevitability also against us (TNN + Decay Leovold and much more) this makes us much more in need to close the match before turn 11

[Whitefaces]

Turn 0 Obliterator, holy shit.

[Quasim0ff]

Turn 0 Obliterator, holy shit.

I'm not sure why more people aren't on this vs us. Just board in 4 d rit, 4 crit, 4 obliterators and B-producing lands if you aren't on a deck with B lands anyhow.

[Poron]

yeah it's surely easy to deal with it without StP and Terminus.

In their place I would play 4 Young Pyromancer SB (and some Gurmag Angler)

[Quasim0ff]

yeah it's surely easy to deal with it without StP and Terminus.

In their place I would play 4 Young Pyromancer SB (and some Gurmag Angler)

I actually know that Surfinbird19 on mtgo (who plays ant exclusively) is on 4x YP + 4x ETW vs us.

Angler is garbage vs us, mentor/yp is not.

[Poron]

everyone is playing answers to ETW against ANT/TES.
Normally K Return EE and Staticaster are very common in miracle

that's why Angler. Very hard to deal with it without STP which is the first card I side out against them.

Anyway, yes, Angler is poor against both Mentor and ETA they need a second choice.

Thing in the Ice? Who is playing REB against them?

[Quasim0ff]

everyone is playing answers to etw against ant/tes.
Normally k return ee and staticaster are very common in miracle

that's why angler. Very hard to deal with it without stp which is the first card i side out against them.

Anyway, yes, angler is poor against both mentor and eta they need a second choice.

Thing in the ice? Who is playing reb against them?

everyone?

[Poron]

you play REB against ANT? it's a no blue card deck :eek::eek:

last best placed storm deck

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112744
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112755

you keep REB to counter Brainstorm and Ponder?

I would stick so much 4 Thing in the Ice there.

[Whitefaces]

1-2, yes.

[Poron]

good to know, thanks

[Quasim0ff]

Depending on the list, I have between two and four.

[Echohots]

you play REB against ANT? it's a no blue card deck :eek::eek:

last best placed storm deck

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112744
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112755

you keep REB to counter Brainstorm and Ponder?

I would stick so much 4 Thing in the Ice there.

Played a game just this last weekend where 2x pyro and 2 snaps countered all 4 of his brainstorms, I floated a fluster, and had a handful of answers (because he couldn't sculpt his hand, so his discard to push through a win was weak).

[Poron]

to float a Spell Snare for his Infernal Tutor wouldn't have been better?

Anyway, different playstyle. Anyway if reb players side in REB, TitI is not a good idea.

Tasigur, may be

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is anyone still playing a Counterspell in their 75?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[gh0st_b1rd]

Is anyone still playing a Counterspell in their 75?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

There's an agreement to include at least a single copy of Counterspell. Idea is that if you're replacing Counterspell including catch-alls like Council's Judgment and EE also works.

[Hanni]

Is anyone still playing a Counterspell in their 75?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I've yet to see a decklist posted online anywhere without at least 1 Counterspell maindeck...

Counterspell seems really strong in the current meta anyway, so I'm not sure why anyone would be cutting them.

[Poron]

I play 3 FoW 3 Cbalance in the maindeck but 2 CSpells.

too many Decays around I am thinking about goong down to 2 CB and up to 3 Jace

[Gros]

i have a quick question for the ones who played spell snare in amindeck or sideboard, do you guys usuaally bor it in vs. team america/grixis delver/ BR reanimator, lands and Shardless BUG?i son't understand itf this is a card that we can board in to prevent our opponent's hate coming in from their board ( so substantially boarding this in to counter a Null/rod, chalice, winter orb, library etc) or if it ids preferrably to board this in only vs. decks that have important targets MD

[gh0st_b1rd]

i have a quick question for the ones who played spell snare in amindeck or sideboard, do you guys usuaally bor it in vs. team america/grixis delver/ BR reanimator, lands and Shardless BUG?i son't understand itf this is a card that we can board in to prevent our opponent's hate coming in from their board ( so substantially boarding this in to counter a Null/rod, chalice, winter orb, library etc) or if it ids preferrably to board this in only vs. decks that have important targets MD

Spell Snare is just a flexible, low to the ground counter. It has its perks post-board (which you have listed) but is still pretty great pre-board.

My primary aim with Spell Snares is to combat other blue cards and the occasional Hymn to Tourach. Like against 4c Control for example, their Snapcaster Mages are effectively the heart and soul of their value pile. Outside of Counterspell or an active Counterbalance + Top there is no good way we can interact with opposing Snapcasters.

I have a maindeck singleton Spell Snare and Spell Pierce at the moment so am trying to make up for their maindeck inclusions by trimming down to 3 REBs and 2 Flusterstorms in the SB and instead replacing them with 2 Vendilion Cliques. Right now I am considering replacing the maindeck Spell Pierce with a REB so that I can justify a basic Mountain in the SB.

[CutthroatCasual]

Is anyone still playing a Counterspell in their 75?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I moved from 2 to 1 recently, but I wouldn't sleeve up the deck without at least 1.

[thefringthing]

http://i.imgur.com/sHU8oBE.png

"Fight through it."

[Cipher]

http://i.imgur.com/sHU8oBE.png

"Fight through it."
Worse than Revoker?

[mike1987]

Worse than Revoker?

Haha the fact that it is one-sided, means it can be good in the mirror!

[CutthroatCasual]

Worse than Revoker?

Worse as in not as good? Yes. I would much rather play against this than a Revoker naming Top.

[Gros]

Worse as in not as good? Yes. I would much rather play against this than a Revoker naming Top.
Maybe this will be problematic to play against in a burn shell

[Noloam_]

guys what is your opinion on entreat vs burn? If you could choose between mentor or entreat in that match. What whould you choose?

[Poron]

Fetchlands are going to cost 3 life and top activation 2 life :eyebrow:

*/-2 effects are so needed in modern meta

[Sibelius]

Congratulations to Anders Thiesen for coming second at Eternal Weekend!
Read his report here!

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/rants-and-reflections-after-ew-2017/

Sib

[FZA]

guys what is your opinion on entreat vs burn? If you could choose between mentor or entreat in that match. What whould you choose?

Mentor, definitely. Burn has inevitability against us, the faster we can close out the game the better.

[CutthroatCasual]

Maybe this will be problematic to play against in a burn shell

It's definitely a nuisance but I would much rather see this than an Eidolon on turn 2. It doesn't kill us for playing cantrips to find answers.

[icedagger]

It's definitely a nuisance but I would much rather see this than an Eidolon on turn 2. It doesn't kill us for playing cantrips to find answers.

Kills you for activating tops or fetchlands though. It also indirectly taxes your brainstorms because you have to pay more life to shuffle cards away.

[phg22]

Any thoughts on the recently spoiled By Force? I was actually thinking about wanting a card exactly like this the other day. Compared to Wear / Tear, its a sorcery that can't hit enchantments, but it might be better against something like Death and Taxes, which can present many artifacts we'd want to destroy. There aren't a ton of enchantments running around off the top of my head other than CB and the occasional Sylvan Library. Probably not going to replace Wear / Tear, but is an option if you expect MUD or Stax for some reason.

[Minniehajj]

Any thoughts on the recently spoiled By Force? I was actually thinking about wanting a card exactly like this the other day. Compared to Wear / Tear, its a sorcery that can't hit enchantments, but it might be better against something like Death and Taxes, which can present many artifacts we'd want to destroy. There aren't a ton of enchantments running around off the top of my head other than CB and the occasional Sylvan Library. Probably not going to replace Wear / Tear, but is an option if you expect MUD or Stax for some reason.

Aluren, Food Chain, Sneak Attack, Sylvan Library, Choke, ZUR'S WEIRDING?!?!
Yeah, pass on this card.

[benthetenor]

Any thoughts on the recently spoiled By Force? I was actually thinking about wanting a card exactly like this the other day. Compared to Wear / Tear, its a sorcery that can't hit enchantments, but it might be better against something like Death and Taxes, which can present many artifacts we'd want to destroy. There aren't a ton of enchantments running around off the top of my head other than CB and the occasional Sylvan Library. Probably not going to replace Wear / Tear, but is an option if you expect MUD or Stax for some reason.

I mean, there are so many shatter effects in the format. Unless you want more than 2 artifacts, which does come up but is pretty rare, Rack and Ruin is probably better. Being instant-speed against Death and Taxes is fairly relevant, given Rishadan Ports and Wastelands. Other than that, this is usually better than something like Shattering Spree against everything that doesn't have counterspells, and I guess it's better in some spots than Meltdown which would fulfill the "kill a lot of artifacts" role pretty effectively previously. There's even Shatterstorm or Vandalblast if you really want to get them badly. Or Smelt, as the cheapest Shatter for Snapcaster Mage purposes. But honestly, I don't see a whole lot of board states that couldn't be decimated by casting Rack and Ruin and then Snapcastering it back. You're probably only killing more than two or three artifacts at once in Magical Christmasland.

The one real truth of deckbuilding when talking about a card like that is, in the vast majority of situations, if you're being decimated by an artifact deck and you need to bring in a lot of hate, it's usually better to bring in a lot of small effects instead of a few big ones. It's better to play 5 Disenchant against the format than it would be to play 2 By Force, as an extreme example, because it leaves you less vulnerable to other decks, and because in most situations, 1-2 Disenchants are going to be good enough. Only when things are truly oppressive, like Affinity in Standard, would you want a card like By Force, and even then it would have to be >30-40% of the metagame for it to be worth sideboard slots.

It does seem like a rather heavy-handed and obvious answer for current Standard, though...

[Cipher]

Worse as in not as good? Yes. I would much rather play against this than a Revoker naming Top.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It seems that they printed the card to hate on Miracles (won't see the light of day in Standard), but it looks like it's just a worse Revoker.

[Poron]

Not so sure it's worse.

it's in the color that by turn 4 has already (at least) halved your life and takes both fetchlands and any artitacts.
Additionally it survives artifact removal and has 2 thoughtness.

To buy a playset as soon as it goes to 5$. Being one sided I would play 4 in the mirror

[December]

How do you guys feel about hydroblast currently?

Looking at recent tournament results it looks like we need to be prepared for big red. I'm going to start playing 4 hydroblast in my sideboard (or is 3 enough?), Blue Elemental Blast seems a lot worse together with Monastery Mentor on the other hand. It's also a mirror breaker since it stops both the opposing pyroblasts as well as the Keranos, God of Storms and the Nahiri, the Harbinger.

[Quasim0ff]

How do you guys feel about hydroblast currently?

Looking at recent tournament results it looks like we need to be prepared for big red. I'm going to start playing 4 hydroblast in my sideboard (or is 3 enough?), Blue Elemental Blast seems a lot worse together with Monastery Mentor on the other hand. It's also a mirror breaker since it stops both the opposing pyroblasts as well as the Keranos, God of Storms and the Nahiri, the Harbinger.

It also kills their Sulfur Elemental, which is currently stopping your monastery mentors (IN PLURAL!).

I think Hydroblast is really well positioned now.

[Poron]

yeah Hydroblast quotation's better now

[benthetenor]

How do you guys feel about hydroblast currently?

Looking at recent tournament results it looks like we need to be prepared for big red. I'm going to start playing 4 hydroblast in my sideboard (or is 3 enough?), Blue Elemental Blast seems a lot worse together with Monastery Mentor on the other hand. It's also a mirror breaker since it stops both the opposing pyroblasts as well as the Keranos, God of Storms and the Nahiri, the Harbinger.

I played one in the tournament I was in a few months ago and it was awesome. 3-4 is insanely high. Even 2 is probably too many, but I could get behind it if you didn't want to play more Disenchant effects for some reason. It does stop REB, but if you're looking for a card that does that, Flusterstorm is already played in most sideboards, and people insist on bringing it in in the fair matchups and the mirror, where I can only imagine it's only purpose is winning the counter war. I've felt it to be too narrow for a fair matchup (which is why I prefer Spell Pierce), but it's certainly less narrow than Hydroblast.

I play one for Sneak Attack decks, for burn and for red-based Delver decks which often have Sulfuric Vortex post-board. It's been incredibly good as a one-of, but the diminishing returns are very steep on that card.

[HSCK]

How do you guys feel about hydroblast currently?

Looking at recent tournament results it looks like we need to be prepared for big red. I'm going to start playing 4 hydroblast in my sideboard (or is 3 enough?), Blue Elemental Blast seems a lot worse together with Monastery Mentor on the other hand. It's also a mirror breaker since it stops both the opposing pyroblasts as well as the Keranos, God of Storms and the Nahiri, the Harbinger.

I think Hydro has a place, but I don't think Keranos or Nahiri are factors anywhere but Modern.

[drocker23]

I don't understand how 20 lands can be enough in a double entreat build. Just because you run predict doesn't mean your opening hands get any better and if miracles misses hitting it's land drops it has a real tough time winning. If the 21st land wasn't necessary then i don't think you would see a sideboard slot dedicated to it. If you want to run Predict then that's fine and I think you should as long as the majority of miracles decks are running it because i think not having it when they do could put you at a disadvantage. However, I think that running any more than 2 and you're just wasting space that could go to other control cards. In fact, I see people running less copies of the typical 4 ofs to run more predicts. I can't see how this can be a good idea. More consistency but less tools at your disposal in any given matchup. Don't we want miracles to be flexible and prepared for anything rather than to keep shoving in cantrips attempting to make the deck more linear? Especially these 4 mentor builds. But my concern is not the mentor builds. It's the entreat builds that seem to run not enough lands in game 1.

[Quasim0ff]

I don't understand how 20 lands can be enough in a double entreat build. Just because you run predict doesn't mean your opening hands get any better and if miracles misses hitting it's land drops it has a real tough time winning. If the 21st land wasn't necessary then i don't think you would see a sideboard slot dedicated to it. If you want to run Predict then that's fine and I think you should as long as the majority of miracles decks are running it because i think not having it when they do could put you at a disadvantage. However, I think that running any more than 2 and you're just wasting space that could go to other control cards. In fact, I see people running less copies of the typical 4 ofs to run more predicts. I can't see how this can be a good idea. More consistency but less tools at your disposal in any given matchup. Don't we want miracles to be flexible and prepared for anything rather than to keep shoving in cantrips attempting to make the deck more linear? Especially these 4 mentor builds. But my concern is not the mentor builds. It's the entreat builds that seem to run not enough lands in game 1.

Have you played the predict heavy entreat builds, at all?

[Poron]

I have seen a lot of Anzid stream and I enjoyed it, but that deck is not where I want to be.

Wonderful card advantage (4 Predict and 4 SnapMage)
wonderful responsivity to threaths (4 StP 4 REBs 4 SnapMage)

no real threaths apart from FtA and a veeery late EtA.

I am really thinking about the new God (to test)

It resists to Decay and REB it chump blocks Marit Lage it is totally able to win alone it enjoys the card advantage of Predict and can help EOT to thin the deck.

cons: awful against Terminus totally useless 50% of the time

[Quasim0ff]

www.twitch.tv/clericofcool streaming some miracles w entreats and predicts.

[Baum]

www.twitch.tv/clericofcool streaming some miracles w entreats and predicts.

It was pretty interesting to watch the replay of our match from your side ;)
I definitely got lucky in G1, your draws in the midgame were just horrible. Usually it’s really in favor of Miracles, before I get access to my Pyroblasts. I can’t really afford to force or counterspell your Predicts because I’m just cold to Jace or Entreat. That’s the reason I never hardcasted one of my Forces in hand. Maybe I was playing was too scared.
I don’t agree with all your assessments regarding my play though. :P
G2 using the Snapcaster for Brainstorm instead of Decay on your Top was fine because I had a second Snapcaster for REB or Surgery in hand to get whatever you had on top. Also the Clique. It was quite the embarrassment of riches...

[Ghiwo]

Hey guys!

After some time playing mentor miracles, since almost everyone favors the predict build I decided to give it a spin.

How does this build even stand a chance to beat Sneak&Show with 0 to 1 Vendilion Cliques in the 75?

Thanks a lot!

[Poron]

SnT and Sneak Attack must die (/be countered)

[FZA]

Hey guys!

After some time playing mentor miracles, since almost everyone favors the predict build I decided to give it a spin.

How does this build even stand a chance to beat Sneak&Show with 0 to 1 Vendilion Cliques in the 75?

Thanks a lot!

It's a rough matchup, but winnable with some luck. Basically you have to counter the first Sneak/Show and then land countertop before they can cantrip into another one. Luckily we are one of the few decks that can answer an Emrakul but if the Grisel Daddy hits the board at any point we lose.

If you need to hedge against the matchup specifically, Containment Priest is your friend much more so than Vendilion Clique.

[Pdingo]

Hei guys:)

I ,,won" today a 1k tournament with miracle:)
Well not won a friend and i splittet the final because the price out was enough for bouth uf us:)
He was playing food chain so it would be hard.

6 Rounds and top 8:

2:0 Tezzeretor
2:0 Eldrazi
2:0 B/R Reanimator
1:1 Shardless Bug
1:2 Mirror (so damn close and was really intense)
2:1 Aggro Loam (Basically draw but the board state would win in the next 3 Turns, also he was 3:2 and a friend.
Thanks again luki!)

Top 8:

2:0 DnT
2:1 Mirror( on stream /gameplace 1klegacy lucerne)
Really intensive games and did a small.missplay on g3 with flusterstorm but i was so much in the game.

Final Draw with foodchain..would be nice to play but i think they're favered.
Anyway i can easy pay my trip to mkm series frankfurt and play the superfinals in legacy and modern:))
You can check out the stream on twitch/gameplace lucerne. I will post the time.i play tomorrow and also the list:)

Very nice tournament !!!

Greets Pascal

[Ghiwo]

It's a rough matchup, but winnable with some luck. Basically you have to counter the first Sneak/Show and then land countertop before they can cantrip into another one. Luckily we are one of the few decks that can answer an Emrakul but if the Grisel Daddy hits the board at any point we lose.

If you need to hedge against the matchup specifically, Containment Priest is your friend much more so than Vendilion Clique.

I definitely need to obtain at least a rough 40% of chances in the match-up.. Here in Italy S&T decks are all over the place and I can't afford to give it up if I want to play the deck at big tournaments.

Unfortunately even trying to counter the first show is difficult since they have at least a pair of Boseijus after board and 3+ spell pierces/Flusterstorms.
I've played the match-up extensively in the last months, due in fact to its great representation in the Italian fiels, and as you guys more experienced and better players than me surely know, CB is not very good against them, because it just hits cantrips.

Pyroblast is certainly good and so could be Hydroblast, I saw Anders Thiesen tried one in a league he 5-0ed.

Also, EtA is a SUPER cluncky win condition since they run flusterstorm, it requires set up, you certainly don't want it in your first 10 cards, but still you need to present a clock.

I will definitely fit 3 Cliques in the sideboard and see how it goes, they even happen to be good in the mirror

[Quasim0ff]

It was pretty interesting to watch the replay of our match from your side ;)
I definitely got lucky in G1, your draws in the midgame were just horrible. Usually it’s really in favor of Miracles, before I get access to my Pyroblasts. I can’t really afford to force or counterspell your Predicts because I’m just cold to Jace or Entreat. That’s the reason I never hardcasted one of my Forces in hand. Maybe I was playing was too scared.
I don’t agree with all your assessments regarding my play though. :P
G2 using the Snapcaster for Brainstorm instead of Decay on your Top was fine because I had a second Snapcaster for REB or Surgery in hand to get whatever you had on top. Also the Clique. It was quite the embarrassment of riches...

I didn't realize you were on regular Czech Pile, otherwise I wouldn't have sideboarded the way I did; I assumed you were on some weird BUG control deck with tar pits etc, fromt he cards I saw, meaning I played right into your blast - I had fluster and should just have waited on it, but I assumed you only had counterspells because I only saw BUG fetches, including a catacombs. Game one I fucked up in the end, I pondered into Jace + tarn + Swords and accidently put Jace > Tarn > Swords, instead of Jace > Swords, thus dying to your Drs.

My draws were pretty abysmal I think, and I think I'm a favorite if I realized what deck it was. I also didn't draw a single cantrip until I hit 30th card or something, which was just fucking weird.

[Jeff]

I definitely need to obtain at least a rough 40% of chances in the match-up.. Here in Italy S&T decks are all over the place and I can't afford to give it up if I want to play the deck at big tournaments.

Unfortunately even trying to counter the first show is difficult since they have at least a pair of Boseijus after board and 3+ spell pierces/Flusterstorms.
I've played the match-up extensively in the last months, due in fact to its great representation in the Italian fiels, and as you guys more experienced and better players than me surely know, CB is not very good against them, because it just hits cantrips.

Pyroblast is certainly good and so could be Hydroblast, I saw Anders Thiesen tried one in a league he 5-0ed.

Also, EtA is a SUPER cluncky win condition since they run flusterstorm, it requires set up, you certainly don't want it in your first 10 cards, but still you need to present a clock.

I will definitely fit 3 Cliques in the sideboard and see how it goes, they even happen to be good in the mirror

I'm no Miracles expert (in here because I'm trying to learn) but I did recently have success with a Goofy Control Deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111821) where my Boseiju plan involved just playing a few wastelands. Obviously I also had 3 Vendilion Cliques, which help in that matchup, but that deck started with no Wastelands and I eventually added two as ways to interact with problematic lands like Boseiju or Dark Depths. I wasn't treating them as ways to manascrew my opponent, so I almost never fired them off early, but you're not actually required to just waste your opponent when you draw them. If your control deck has enough uses for colorless mana there's no reason you can't take a few land slots for a spell that answers Boseiju.

Obviously there are downsides to playing Wasteland, and I'm not saying Miracles needs to adopt it en masse, but if your local meta involves a lot of Boseiju but you want to play Miracles it's not a ridiculous way to answer the card.


CB is not very good against them, because it just hits cantrips.

If they *do* have the Boseiju and you don't have the answer, countering the cantrips is vital. Don't sell counterbalance short. Sneak and Show is a deck that can have 5 cards in hand and not be able to cast any of them. Cantrips are very important to smoothing out their draws.

[Gros]

I definitely need to obtain at least a rough 40% of chances in the match-up.. Here in Italy S&T decks are all over the place and I can't afford to give it up if I want to play the deck at big tournaments.

Unfortunately even trying to counter the first show is difficult since they have at least a pair of Boseijus after board and 3+ spell pierces/Flusterstorms.
I've played the match-up extensively in the last months, due in fact to its great representation in the Italian fiels, and as you guys more experienced and better players than me surely know, CB is not very good against them, because it just hits cantrips.

Pyroblast is certainly good and so could be Hydroblast, I saw Anders Thiesen tried one in a league he 5-0ed.

Also, EtA is a SUPER cluncky win condition since they run flusterstorm, it requires set up, you certainly don't want it in your first 10 cards, but still you need to present a clock.

I will definitely fit 3 Cliques in the sideboard and see how it goes, they even happen to be good in the mirror

Usually the most importante thing is to pressure them even a little, so plays like t2 Snapcaster as a bus viper in their eotust must be done sometimes in my experience, Snapcaster appears also to be great if they are on the omni plan even with boseiju: they cast S&T with boseiju, you put Snapcaster or everyday other creature with an ETB and if they put omni you can reb/wear omni in resp to your own Snapcaster trigger before they get priority to cast emrakul.
Otherwisw if you e per boseiju the plan becomes to counterspell their cantrips, all of them and away pressure them, generalmente btw the plan is really to Win the first counterwar and lock then in CB top to counter their cantrips, surgical on their S&T or post intuition and containment priest helps out a lot, canonista is not bad at all to slam down so if they cast S&T they cannot start a counter war

[Pdingo]

So here is my Decklist:
// Miracles

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 5 Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 3 Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// 16 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Predict

// 20 Land
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 11 Sorcery
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Monastery Mentor

// 11 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear


You can watch the stream here:https://www.twitch.tv/videos/135984769

I play @ 8:11 the last Game in the Mirror was already 1:1 and won this intensive game: (I'm the one with the Pimp Miracle xD)
I did a small mistake in the Last Minutes before i win with flusterstorm but i think it doesn't change anything.

I play also a Match against Shardless BUG and drawet with..I'm not sure if i played everything correctly in g2. Sadly he topdecket the Nulled:(

The 3 Mentors in the Sideboard was nuts all the time!!!
Anyway have a nice day!

Greets Pascal

[Poron]

How often does it happen that we fuse Wear/Tear?

I mean its cc is now 3 and 99% of the time it either destroys an artifact or an enchantment.

Have you seen Forsake the Worldy? It exiles instead of destroying (white Nahiri and Academy Ruins) and might cycle in case you already have too many Snapmage around.

Definitly to test it.

[icedagger]

How often does it happen that we fuse Wear/Tear?

I mean its cc is now 3 and 99% of the time it either destroys an artifact or an enchantment.

Have you seen Forsake the Worldy? It exiles instead of destroying (white Nahiri and Academy Ruins) and might cycle in case you already have too many Snapmage around.

Definitly to test it.

Objectively I'd still go with W//T because of the lower cost and flexibility. The new card is a bit too narrow and costs too much for an artifact/enchantment removal sideboard slot. If your opponent is running a strategy involving Academy ruins you might be better off boarding in some graveyard hate instead of running overcosted removal that's going to be bad in other matchups.

Also opportunities to 2 for 1 with fuse come up a lot more often than 1%. And when they come up, it usually swings the match in your favor.

[Poron]

I am afraid you are right. The problem is that we are playing the same list for 5 years. Card more, card less.

The last shock was Monastery Mentor and the falling star of DTT (rapidly changed to Predict).

apart from that, nothing since Avacyn Restored

Anyway, because Hydroblast has become sexier for the new Mentor I think I will instead try Celestial Purge.

This can also hit Bob, Marit Lage, Liliana as well as Blood Moon, YP, Harsh Mentor.

Just Pyroblast would be out of its reach, but 2cc on top is better than 1

[CutthroatCasual]

So Ballista Food Chain is a real deck and seems really good against us (I'd rather play against Aluren and have free Snapcasters than Food Chain). What should we adapt in our SB if this deck becomes more and more popular?

[FZA]

So Ballista Food Chain is a real deck and seems really good against us (I'd rather play against Aluren and have free Snapcasters than Food Chain). What should we adapt in our SB if this deck becomes more and more popular?

I haven't played too much against Food Chain, but the key card in the matchup is Manipulate Fate. If they resolve that card, it's tough to deal with all the recurring Griffins but if they don't, the deck is just a bad BUG midrange deck with a combo that's easy to disrupt.

Cards that seem good against them:

Wear//Tear

Pyroblast

Spell Snare

Llawan, Cephalid Empress (mostly joking but she completely locks that deck out of the game and can't even be decayed)

[thefringthing]

Llawan, Cephalid Empress (mostly joking but she completely locks that deck out of the game and can't even be decayed)They can kill her with Ballista.

[Sparkii]

They can kill her with Ballista.

Many lists are also playing one copy of the 3 cmc guy.

[Poron]

Griffin is also huge with Misdirection // FoW.

We can expect also 5-6 copies of it..

[kravkenov]

There is two cards to fight : first is Manipulate Fate to prevent the combo plan, and then Shaman to fight creature recursion in case of chump block. Both cards are well handled by the main deck.
Post sideboard, Pithing Needle on Ballista can slow things, but they run 4 Decay to manage it. Revoker is also an option, as it works on Foodchain. I would also say that Angels might be a huge play against Foodchain (if we have time to untapping with 2-3 angels on the battlefield.

But overall it's not an easy MU. Leovold is a real pain for us, and we shouldn't underestimate Foodchain.

[mike1987]

So here is my Decklist:
// Miracles

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 5 Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 3 Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// 16 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Predict

// 20 Land
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 11 Sorcery
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Monastery Mentor

// 11 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear


You can watch the stream here:https://www.twitch.tv/videos/135984769

I play @ 8:11 the last Game in the Mirror was already 1:1 and won this intensive game: (I'm the one with the Pimp Miracle xD)
I did a small mistake in the Last Minutes before i win with flusterstorm but i think it doesn't change anything.

I play also a Match against Shardless BUG and drawet with..I'm not sure if i played everything correctly in g2. Sadly he topdecket the Nulled:(

The 3 Mentors in the Sideboard was nuts all the time!!!
Anyway have a nice day!

Greets Pascal

Hey Pascal, Congrats on your win!

I was just watching the first game of ur shardless match up. At 3:27:16, after you terminus the goyf and leovold, why not leave entreat on top? You can afford to take a hit from the tar pit, EOT entreat for 3 and kill him the next turn instead of letting his AV resolve in the hope of him digging into a maelstrom pulse if any. Just wanna learn more from your line of play and thinking behind it.

[twndomn]

I gave a chuckle when I saw BBD's latest creation.

https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/shared/12429 for Julian's Legacy Primer League.

Terminus in the SB, 4 Mentors MD, and 0 Predict. I actually kind of hope he'll do well, it's going against this latest trend of multi-predict-Entreat-MD build.

[hyp3r1on]

I don't know about BBDs list - seems a bit loose, but I've long said there might be something to this list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14427&d=286342&f=LE

Obviously some card choices are a bit questionable, but I've really wanted to devote a decent amount of time to playing around with this type of list and see where it goes. Just have never got around to it.

[FZA]

I gave a chuckle when I saw BBD's latest creation.

https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/editor for Julian's Legacy Primer League.

Terminus in the SB, 4 Mentors MD, and 0 Predict. I actually kind of hope he'll do well, it's going against this latest trend of multi-predict-Entreat-MD build.

Safe to say BBD is really going out of the box by playing Tarmogoyfs in Miracles (you linked to a BUG delver deck :P)

But seriously, I remember him saying after he top 4'd the last GP that he didn't think Predict was worth it, and that being proactive with Mentor is better than trying to steal wins with Entreat.

Moving all terminus to the SB is certainly a radical change.

[twndomn]

Safe to say BBD is really going out of the box by playing Tarmogoyfs in Miracles (you linked to a BUG delver deck :P)

But seriously, I remember him saying after he top 4'd the last GP that he didn't think Predict was worth it, and that being proactive with Mentor is better than trying to steal wins with Entreat.

Moving all terminus to the SB is certainly a radical change.

Correct link here
https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/shared/12429

Julian's Legacy Premier League
http://itsjulian.com/results

[Julian23]

It's actually called the Legacy Premier League (http://legacypremierleague.com), not Primer. But thanks for the shout-outs! :smile:

[Quasim0ff]

http://i.imgur.com/lDByViu.png

http://i.imgur.com/fbfx7o0.png

get fked omnishow.

[Poron]

if SneakShow or Omnitell is so around Wasteland + Crucible can be a choice (already seen in Japan, BTW)

[gh0st_b1rd]

I will totally be honest: whenever I think about ways to fight the control mirror in eternal formats, one of the first things I do consider is how to leverage a random 1-of Boseiju from the sideboard.

Problem is that it just makes whoever is hardcasting FoW/Council's Judgment in the Miracles mirror in order to not die look like a genius.

Uncounterable Predicts would also be quite nice. Using Boseiju as a way to dodge Flusterstorm when casting an EtA against BUG decks sounds appealing too.

[Quasim0ff]

Boseiju is not feasable in the mirror for the following reasons:
1) It doesn't cast counterbalance.
2) It doesn't cast red elemental blast targetting counterbalance.
3) it doesn't cast counterspell targetting Jace.
4) For it to be reasonable with Force, you have to hardcast force, which is often so late in the game that a single counterspell usually ends the fight anyhow.

[Pdingo]

Hey Pascal, Congrats on your win!

I was just watching the first game of ur shardless match up. At 3:27:16, after you terminus the goyf and leovold, why not leave entreat on top? You can afford to take a hit from the tar pit, EOT entreat for 3 and kill him the next turn instead of letting his AV resolve in the hope of him digging into a maelstrom pulse if any. Just wanna learn more from your line of play and thinking behind it.


Thanks men!

Oh yes i saw the replay..i think my line is always to defend first.. i mean i never saw a decay of him so i except at least 1 for my angels.. but maybe i should go the route. 4 angels if i would top correctly and just try to win..but i dont think aggressive plays are good in this matchup..but maybe in this situation i should do it because he will just find more answers..it's always hard i mean i never saw a fow or a decay of him.

[CutthroatCasual]

http://i.imgur.com/lDByViu.png

http://i.imgur.com/fbfx7o0.png

get fked omnishow.

Is this deck making a comeback? Do we need to adopt the Japanese approach and play 1-2 Wastelands now/again?

[Sibelius]

This is probably the direction Miracles should move in right now...

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/the-brewery-a-night-on-the-lash/

Sib :tongue:

[Quasim0ff]

Sneak is pretty big online, I almost run into it each league. Current tally, in 8 matches, is 8 killed Boseiju (2x4), 2 eyes and 1 ancient Tomb.

Sendt fra min ONEPLUS A3003 med Tapatalk

[FZA]

Sneak is pretty big online, I almost run into it each league. Current tally, in 8 matches, is 8 killed Boseiju (2x4), 2 eyes and 1 ancient Tomb.

Sendt fra min ONEPLUS A3003 med Tapatalk

How many Wastelands are you playing, and in place of what?

[Quasim0ff]

I'm currently playing two wastelands. I have 2 flusterstorm (where I'd ideally have 3) as well as only 3 snapcaster. I usually think the fourth snapcaster is the best sideboard card in miracles, as our deck is usually tailored post board to fight on the same axis as the opponent, and we just want more of everything vs whatever they are doing. I really like wasteland so far, but I have killed 8 bitch trees and 2 eye of ugin as well as a single ancient Tomb so far

I also got my Sneak opponent to concede after I won game one where he went Boseiju go and I went wasteland your Boseiju, go. He scooped in his 2nd main.

Sendt fra min ONEPLUS A3003 med Tapatalk

[FZA]

I'm currently playing two wastelands. I have 2 flusterstorm (where I'd ideally have 3) as well as only 3 snapcaster. I usually think the fourth snapcaster is the best sideboard card in miracles, as our deck is usually tailored post board to fight on the same axis as the opponent, and we just want more of everything vs whatever they are doing. I really like wasteland so far, but I have killed 8 bitch trees and 2 eye of ugin as well as a single ancient Tomb so far

I also got my Sneak opponent to concede after I won game one where he went Boseiju go and I went wasteland your Boseiju, go. He scooped in his 2nd main.

Sendt fra min ONEPLUS A3003 med Tapatalk

Ah so they are in the sideboard, got it.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Wasteland seems good. Traditional for control decks in Legacy to usually play Wastelands due to the fact that they dont tend to have efficient ways to interact with lands. I'm considering a 1/1 split. Having a copy in the maindeck is just a nice freeroll for answering randomness thanks to all of the library manipulation. At worst it gets Predicted away or it just taps for a single colorless mana.

I do question Crucible of Worlds tho. It isnt worth any effort to play another planeswalker type card that is strictly worse than JTMS in this shell. If you really wanted another soft lock Dust Bowl might be better, but even then it seems undesirable compared to a 3rd JTMS for example.

[Quasim0ff]

I definatly DON'T think Wasteland is playable in maindeck - Most delver decks are packing stifles these days, meaning our manabase is already under pressure, it's bad in the mirror, vs bug/4c control etc, and I don't expect Boseiju game one.

The only situation it's really desireble is, if the opponent is on bg turbo depths, as you have an out to a fast dd/stage, if you happen to have it, as well as vs eldrazi, for their eye of ugins.

The card is basically dedicated hate for the cards "Boseiju, who shelters all" as well as "Eye of Ugin". It comes with a significant cost, in that we use our mana, which is usually already taxed due to our deck being weaker vs the field (no sideboard, where we are miles and miles ahead of the second best deck).

For game ones I'd rather have a large amount of predict/cspell/balance than a wasteland, and those are the cards I'd look to cut, because we still want a 20 land manabase I think.

[gh0st_b1rd]

I was thinking in place of one of the flex spots actually. That 1x CS/CJ/EE slot. I wouldnt ever want to replace a staple land in the deck with a Wasteland. I also wouldnt mind playing 21 lands.

You are right that any generic card is better than Wasteland, but this deck is already so generic and redundant. It could stand to have one less generic card maindeck.

[FZA]

I was thinking in place of one of the flex spots actually. That 1x CS/CJ/EE slot. I wouldnt ever want to replace a staple land in the deck with a Wasteland. I also wouldnt mind playing 21 lands.

You are right that any generic card is better than Wasteland, but this deck is already so generic and redundant. It could stand to have one less generic card maindeck.

You're not necessarily wrong but just think of how many more important things CJ gives us an answer to G1 compared to Wasteland:

CJ: Chalice, True-Name, Liliana, Jace, Counterbalance, Leovold

Wasteland: Eye of Ugin, Inkmoth Nexus, Dark Depths

Futhermore if we're mostly playing Wasteland to answer Boseiju, we definitely don't want it game 1 as most decks that play Boseiju do so in the SB.

[Lava Snacks]

Daydream question to Miracles players.
It seems like Miracles is more the top deck than it was in its early days.
Why is that? B/c it doesn't seem like the ?minor? additions of Monastery Mentor, Council's Judgment, Wear // Tear, etc. have changed it that much/would take it to another level.
Have the builds simply been optimized?
Is the meta more favorable?
More people playing it?
Am I wrong, and it's not any more dominant?

[CutthroatCasual]

It's because we take a pile of medium-powered cards and it just all works so well together. Nothing in the deck (aside from Brainstorm and maybe SCM and Jace) is inherently broken or OP on its own unlike cards in other decks like Leovold and DRS and Dark Confidant and CotV and SnT and other combo spells. We can't just slot in Terminus or ETA in any random deck playing :w: and win, unlike slotting in Leovold in any BUG deck and getting a massive upgrade.

The deck's synergy is the reason why it's so good. We don't rely on a single payoff spell, rather we rely on the entire deck working well together. It's not like in Delver where they can land a Gurmag or Goyf or even a flipped Delver and ride it to victory. While sometimes CounterTop gets there, most decks have ways around it now so it's not nearly as game-ending as a big fatty with protection.

And that's why it's so hard to pick a card to ban from the deck: nothing is inherently busted so WotC can't be like "Well [card] was too good so we're getting rid of it." like they could for DTT and TC. The only reason to ban something from the deck is to shake up the metagame, and not because the deck is oppressive or anything. It's been at the top for so long simply because it just works so much better than other decks in Legacy.

[FZA]

Daydream question to Miracles players.
It seems like Miracles is more the top deck than it was in its early days.
Why is that? B/c it doesn't seem like the ?minor? additions of Monastery Mentor, Council's Judgment, Wear // Tear, etc. have changed it that much/would take it to another level.
Have the builds simply been optimized?
Is the meta more favorable?
More people playing it?
Am I wrong, and it's not any more dominant?

It's certainly not a new card but I think Predict is largely responsible for Miracles' current level of dominance. Without Predict, Miracles is still a very good deck but is vulnerable to strategies that can generate more card advantage like Shardless BUG for example. With Predict, Miracles is able to keep up card for card with these decks and so at this point we don't have many bad matchups left.

[Whitefaces]

I gave a chuckle when I saw BBD's latest creation.

https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/shared/12429 for Julian's Legacy Primer League.

Terminus in the SB, 4 Mentors MD, and 0 Predict. I actually kind of hope he'll do well, it's going against this latest trend of multi-predict-Entreat-MD build.


It's certainly not a new card but I think Predict is largely responsible for Miracles' current level of dominance. Without Predict, Miracles is still a very good deck but is vulnerable to strategies that can generate more card advantage like Shardless BUG for example. With Predict, Miracles is able to keep up card for card with these decks and so at this point we don't have many bad matchups left.

Agree.

I think we're at a stage where Predict is no longer just a trend as twndomn says and is now an integral part of the deck for the majority of players.

[mike1987]

Not sure if it's discussed before but how do you guys normally approach the death and taxes matchups with prelate and recruiter now? Recently I have been having some issues and have been losing quite a bit to that deck. Mystic for fire ice, prelate coming down on 1 or 6 via vial. Not to mention some Thalia karakas and flickerwisp shenanigans.

I do know th game plan is to clear the board and win via entreat or jace but all their cards seems pretty good against us. Would appreciate some tips from the death and taxes slayers over here

[Pdingo]

I win alot against DnT right now.. Try to control the board state..You can also still win on 1 or 2 life so..
Mentor helps a lot! G1 Try to force Vial..if they don't have it's good anyway. Also predict is really sweet in this match up:)

I board in:

3 mentors
2 Wear/Tear

-3 CB
-1 FOW
- 1 Jace

If you don't like the Match up i prefer kozilek'z return as a 1off.

[Lava Snacks]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting! Sounds like Predict can take a lot of the credit.

[Minniehajj]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting! Sounds like Predict can take a lot of the credit.

It's both Predict as well as the widespread slowing down of the metagame that allows us the time to capitalize on it. Since the metagame is slow to the point where Night's Whisper is a playable card, Predict shines a lot.

[phg22]

Why are you boarding out JTMS vs DnT, he's insane.

[Pdingo]

Why are you boarding out JTMS vs DnT, he's insane.

Well really depends. Sometimes i board out 1 Counterspell otd instead...I want to control the Board and play mentor and entreat.
He's good but sometimes he just does nothing specially when vial is on the board.. Also i think it depends on the list i play.

[Jeff]

It seems like Miracles is more the top deck than it was in its early days.
Why is that?

I can't speak for the wide world of sports, but within my own circle of friends a lot of people have moved to Miracles who didn't used to play it. I know for me I always felt the deck was one B&R update away from getting nuked, and I felt it would take a lot of effort on my part to learn to play it well. If it's getting banned anyway, why invest the time? Eventually, though, I kept looking at numbers and it's hard to justify not playing it. I looked about 6 weeks ago and I was playing against miracles 8-10% of the time online but it was 18% of the winner's metagame according to MTGGoldfish. If we had the Hatfield's old TMI column on SCG nowadays I feel quite confident it'd be showing us just how much Miracles overperforms the number of people playing it.

Eventually I gave up trying to play the decks with the style I would rather play and decided to join the clergy and see what's up. I figure one of four things will happen:

1. I'll get good at the deck, like it, stick with it, and win a lot.
2. I'll get good at the deck, learn a lot from it, go back to other decks and be better at playing against Miracles because I understand it better.
3. I'll get good at the deck just in time for them to ban it.
4. I will not get good at the deck and will retreat in shame to start counting to 10 again.

I'm pretty much OK with all of these. Within my playgroup I'm not alone. About 2 months ago Bob Huang had asked me to bring him Food Chain cards to our weekly tournament, and then that day I got a message from him that basically said "screw it I'm tired of trying to beat miracles I'm just gonna play it." My friend Tom has basically the same experience, coming from Delver and 4C Loam. One of our D&T players finally switched. If what I'm seeing at my shop is happening in a macro sense elsewhere, it would explain seeing more miracles nowadays.

It's honestly just becoming way too hard to pretend Miracles isn't the best deck and play what I want. When there's a more even format I'll play ANT and try to outplay everyone with my skill with the deck. But when there's a deck that's just head and shoulders above the rest of the field in the way Miracles feels right now, I can't justify that. In three weeks at my local shop with various builds of the deck, I've gone 3-1 each time, and two of my three losses are to the mirror. I'm an above average magic player (as my string of 6-3 results in 9 round tournaments will attest), but I'm by no means a great player, and I'm winning with this deck with basically no practice, just picking it up and using my knowledge of the legacy metagame to guide my plays. I still punt constantly by forgetting exactly what's on top of the library and in what order, but I'm getting there.

My wife, by the way, is an Elves player who may never forgive me for playing Miracles.

TL;DR: I think it's just more people playing Miracles than were playing it before.

[phg22]

Well really depends. Sometimes i board out 1 Counterspell otd instead...I want to control the Board and play mentor and entreat.
He's good but sometimes he just does nothing specially when vial is on the board.. Also i think it depends on the list i play.

I'll take Jace over Counterspell in this matchup everytime

[btm10]

I can't speak for the wide world of sports, but within my own circle of friends a lot of people have moved to Miracles who didn't used to play it. I know for me I always felt the deck was one B&R update away from getting nuked, and I felt it would take a lot of effort on my part to learn to play it well. If it's getting banned anyway, why invest the time? Eventually, though, I kept looking at numbers and it's hard to justify not playing it. I looked about 6 weeks ago and I was playing against miracles 8-10% of the time online but it was 18% of the winner's metagame according to MTGGoldfish. If we had the Hatfield's old TMI column on SCG nowadays I feel quite confident it'd be showing us just how much Miracles overperforms the number of people playing it.

Eventually I gave up trying to play the decks with the style I would rather play and decided to join the clergy and see what's up. I figure one of four things will happen:

1. I'll get good at the deck, like it, stick with it, and win a lot.
2. I'll get good at the deck, learn a lot from it, go back to other decks and be better at playing against Miracles because I understand it better.
3. I'll get good at the deck just in time for them to ban it.
4. I will not get good at the deck and will retreat in shame to start counting to 10 again.

I'm pretty much OK with all of these. Within my playgroup I'm not alone. About 2 months ago Bob Huang had asked me to bring him Food Chain cards to our weekly tournament, and then that day I got a message from him that basically said "screw it I'm tired of trying to beat miracles I'm just gonna play it." My friend Tom has basically the same experience, coming from Delver and 4C Loam. One of our D&T players finally switched. If what I'm seeing at my shop is happening in a macro sense elsewhere, it would explain seeing more miracles nowadays.

It's honestly just becoming way too hard to pretend Miracles isn't the best deck and play what I want. When there's a more even format I'll play ANT and try to outplay everyone with my skill with the deck. But when there's a deck that's just head and shoulders above the rest of the field in the way Miracles feels right now, I can't justify that. In three weeks at my local shop with various builds of the deck, I've gone 3-1 each time, and two of my three losses are to the mirror. I'm an above average magic player (as my string of 6-3 results in 9 round tournaments will attest), but I'm by no means a great player, and I'm winning with this deck with basically no practice, just picking it up and using my knowledge of the legacy metagame to guide my plays. I still punt constantly by forgetting exactly what's on top of the library and in what order, but I'm getting there.

My wife, by the way, is an Elves player who may never forgive me for playing Miracles.

TL;DR: I think it's just more people playing Miracles than were playing it before.

This is exactly me. I've played the deck off and on since Dig was banned because control is my 'default' playstyle, but I don't enjoy CounterTop. I haven't made the switch to Miracles as my primary deck yet because I keep hoping that something gets banned, but you'll see a lot more of me here if nothing happens on Monday.

[CutthroatCasual]

Not sure if it's discussed before but how do you guys normally approach the death and taxes matchups with prelate and recruiter now? Recently I have been having some issues and have been losing quite a bit to that deck. Mystic for fire ice, prelate coming down on 1 or 6 via vial. Not to mention some Thalia karakas and flickerwisp shenanigans.

I do know th game plan is to clear the board and win via entreat or jace but all their cards seems pretty good against us. Would appreciate some tips from the death and taxes slayers over here

To add: some DnT lists are playing Ancient Tombs now to power out SFM-fetched equipment in the event that she gets Swords'd before they untap. Also, they're playing Sword of War and Peace now so the MU is getting much more hectic for us.

[Quasim0ff]

To add: some DnT lists are playing Ancient Tombs now to power out SFM-fetched equipment in the event that she gets Swords'd before they untap. Also, they're playing Sword of War and Peace now so the MU is getting much more hectic for us.

no, they are playing ancient tombs to power out palace jailer. Getting to cast swords w/o sfm is also nice, but that's not the real argument, at least not from Thomas Enevoldsen, who is the one who started doing it (and is the best dnt player in the world, not close.)

[Cipher]

The thing with Miracles is, literally every set they print an aggressively costed value creature targeted towards eternal formats. Terminus is like the Sarlacc pit and R&D is feeding Miracles a steady diet of busted creatures. I remember a time when playing tempo/midrange meant Tarmogoyf/Mongoose...

The creature power creep is only accelerating and at this point, what would happen if they did ban Miracles? Would Legacy become a pile of Midrange with fringe combo like Standard and Modern? People talk about Miracles being the best performing deck, but that' because BUG decks are separated into so many different categories, despite playing nearly the same gameplan. Nobody calls Predict Miracles a separate archetype from Legends.

I know people will always hate on the best deck, but essentially what's happening is they're asking for Miracles to get banned so that some combination of BUG Midrange can become the default "best deck" in Legacy. I'd rather Legacy be the one format where that honor goes to a Control deck. People were talking about Predict being the reason Miracles dominates, but I think it's been a slow progression from back when Schonegger and other European players started running 4 Ponders and tilting their lists towards beating Wasteland decks. I think that's all been possible because perhaps 40% of the field at any given Legacy tournament is on some sort of Delver or Deathrite brew. Maybe I'm off with that estimation but it would be interesting to calculate, if the numbers were available.

[Minniehajj]

The thing with Miracles is, literally every set they print an aggressively costed value creature targeted towards eternal formats. Terminus is like the Sarlacc pit and R&D is feeding Miracles a steady diet of busted creatures. I remember a time when playing tempo/midrange meant Tarmogoyf/Mongoose...

The creature power creep is only accelerating and at this point, what would happen if they did ban Miracles? Would Legacy become a pile of Midrange with fringe combo like Standard and Modern? People talk about Miracles being the best performing deck, but that' because BUG decks are separated into so many different categories, despite playing nearly the same gameplan. Nobody calls Predict Miracles a separate archetype from Legends.

I know people will always hate on the best deck, but essentially what's happening is they're asking for Miracles to get banned so that some combination of BUG Midrange can become the default "best deck" in Legacy. I'd rather Legacy be the one format where that honor goes to a Control deck. People were talking about Predict being the reason Miracles dominates, but I think it's been a slow progression from back when Schonegger and other European players started running 4 Ponders and tilting their lists towards beating Wasteland decks. I think that's all been possible because perhaps 40% of the field at any given Legacy tournament is on some sort of Delver or Deathrite brew. Maybe I'm off with that estimation but it would be interesting to calculate, if the numbers were available.

Thank you so much for saying this point, I felt like I was alone in thinking that this was an awful double standard that most of the Legacy community makes. And I agree. The main thing with miracles vs the rest of legacy is the ability of miracles to constantly adapt so much. You can tailor a build of miracles to be competitive during ANY portion of a metagame, even one that is particularly hostile the core of the deck, because it's simple engine, the glue that holds it together, is the cantrip cartel. Once people finally understand that and attack that aspect of Miracles, then we might have rational discussion on how to truly target the deck.

[Hanni]

Thank you so much for saying this point, I felt like I was alone in thinking that this was an awful double standard that most of the Legacy community makes. And I agree. The main thing with miracles vs the rest of legacy is the ability of miracles to constantly adapt so much. You can tailor a build of miracles to be competitive during ANY portion of a metagame, even one that is particularly hostile the core of the deck, because it's simple engine, the glue that holds it together, is the cantrip cartel. Once people finally understand that and attack that aspect of Miracles, then we might have rational discussion on how to truly target the deck.

People are doing that, though. BUG has adapted Leovold. D&T attacks it with Thalia + Revoker. Delver has adapted Winter Orb. Et cetera.

[Cipher]

People are doing that, though. BUG has adapted Leovold. D&T attacks it with Thalia + Revoker. Delver has adapted Winter Orb. Et cetera.
Historically, those type of decks are supposed to get crushed by UW Control. Swapping creatures won't matter much cause they all die to Terminus. If you turn off Top you're just making me cast it as a sorcery speed 1-mana wrath. The decks that historically matchup well against UW Control are using some kind of blitz aggro or a creatureless CA engine that goes over the top of the Control deck's incremental advantage.

If Miracles is a problem, it's got to be because it somehow has a good matchup against decks like Infect or Loam, the decks it's supposed to be poor against. Only was a deck like BUG is going to be good against UW Control is if there's a huge power imbalance, or it has a creatureless plan B attached to it, like Aluren.

[FZA]

Thank you so much for saying this point, I felt like I was alone in thinking that this was an awful double standard that most of the Legacy community makes. And I agree. The main thing with miracles vs the rest of legacy is the ability of miracles to constantly adapt so much. You can tailor a build of miracles to be competitive during ANY portion of a metagame, even one that is particularly hostile the core of the deck, because it's simple engine, the glue that holds it together, is the cantrip cartel. Once people finally understand that and attack that aspect of Miracles, then we might have rational discussion on how to truly target the deck.

The probably with attacking our cantrips (with something like Chalice for example) is that you are forced to not play 1-drops yourself. Which basically limits your deck choices to super boring stuff like Eldrazi or Big Red.

People want to beat Miracles, but they also want to not play a boring deck, and so they opt for an interesting deck that loses to Miracles rather than a boring one that beats it. Or they just join the bandwagon instead lol.

[LOLWut]

The probably with attacking our cantrips (with something like Chalice for example) is that you are forced to not play 1-drops yourself. Which basically limits your deck choices to super boring stuff like Eldrazi or Big Red.

People want to beat Miracles, but they also want to not play a boring deck, and so they opt for an interesting deck that loses to Miracles rather than a boring one that beats it. Or they just join the bandwagon instead lol.

For a while Shardless BUG was the possible "DTB that beats Miracles". That's fallen off a bit.

It seems like the new contenders for this title are Food Chain and Czech Pile. We'll see if they get kicked off the ladder too.

[CutthroatCasual]

Food Chain is actually dangerous, and I've played against Czech Pile and it's probably stronger than Grixis Delver against us.

[Gros]

It seems that some player that consistenstly 5-0'd MTGO leagues stated playing 2 council's Judgment maindeck https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/613655#online for example.
Which are the conditions of the metagame that may push you to play two of them? Does anybody have an idea?

[ThatDeleuzeGuy]

It seems that some player that consistenstly 5-0'd MTGO leagues stated playing 2 council's Judgment maindeck https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/613655#online for example.
Which are the conditions of the metagame that may push you to play two of them? Does anybody have an idea?

The increase in True Name and Leovold decks means the metagame slows down a bit which makes Council's Judgement not nearly as prohibitive at 3 mana as it used to be. It gets rid of both without triggering leovold. It can be snapped back which makes it better than EE in that regard, and it's also a 3 which is usually a problematic number for us to flip for CB. It also serves as an excellent way to get rid of an opposing CB or Jace in the mirror match.

A general (not specific) rule of thumb is that EE is better for quicker metagames and CJ is better for slower, grindier ones. Both are useful but right now it feels way bad to spend 5 mana to get rid of a Leovold or TNN with EE vs 3 mana with CJ.

[Poron]

Also, it flips for Leo, TNN and Food Chain.

[Darkness]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24

Never thought this day would come.

[Stevestamopz]

F

RIP boys. I don't get it... but yeah. F

[Bignasty197]

Goodbye and good riddance. I couldn't help it.

[mike1987]

It's been a good run people, thanks for the fun times.

[lordofthepit]

RIP Miracles Thread

Only Tier 1 or 2 deck to never have a Source primer.

[Quasim0ff]

See you all in Vial maverick chat guys.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[CutthroatCasual]

F

That's it; I'm done with MTG.

[TheManWithaPlan]

RIP Miracles. Mistakes were made. I thought the deck was fine and if they wanted to ban something, it shouldn't have been top. My condolences to those who are more affected by this decision.

[danyul]

Bye Felicia.

[Hanni]

A tier 2 fringe archetype may be possible with the Miracles cards using a Scroll Rack/Land Tax engine instead, but this deck is definitely dead.

I wish they would have banned Terminus instead. Losing Top completely kills this deck, and hurts so many other strategies too.

[lordofthepit]

The Clergy of Cool will disperse like the Fellowship, but we will always be around!

[ScottW]

Sorry guys:frown: I play ANT religiously and hate a t1 top but this is stupid.

[wizard_of_gore]

It's so sad to see that one of the most iconic legacy cards is going out. RIP SDT and my condolesence to all miracle players.

[Whitefaces]

RiP.

[TheManWithaPlan]

I wish they would have banned Terminus instead. Losing Top hurts so many other strategies.
Hurting Painter, Nic Fit and other archetypes relying on this colourless super cantrip to compete with the powerful blue cantrips was a huge reason I didn't want to ban the Top. Should have been Counterbalance.