[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[feline]

Think I'm doing the Legacy Challenge on Modo today (7-9-2017) at 11 EST! I'll post how it goes & the results! Wahoo!!!

-edit-
Well, went 2-5, got a win on the BYE and then an opponent timing out. Every loss was 1-2 except round 3. Then did a Modern league after and went 4-1 with titanshift. Weird day, tournament was tough. I don't remember there being so much disruption, there was more stuff going to my graveyard unresolved than resolved (Discard / Counterspells everywhere) Is this the new norm? I basically have been out of action for about 2 years and I dont remember it being like this.

[Hohosaikou]

Think I'm doing the Legacy Challenge on Modo today (7-9-2017) at 11 EST! I'll post how it goes & the results! Wahoo!!!

-edit-
Well, went 2-5, got a win on the BYE and then an opponent timing out. Every loss was 1-2 except round 3. Then did a Modern league after and went 4-1 with titanshift. Weird day, tournament was tough. I don't remember there being so much disruption, there was more stuff going to my graveyard unresolved than resolved (Discard / Counterspells everywhere) Is this the new norm? I basically have been out of action for about 2 years and I dont remember it being like this.

I think it will be the new norm. I think its a consequence of countertop being removed, a 'resurgence' of combo, and disruption to fight it.

[jasonious]

I've now played about 15 or so individual games with High Tide and have managed two single wins, both of which were Game 1. The first win was against a ANT, wielded by a player new to Legacy, and the second was today against Lands.

The three decks that I face regularly are:
1. BUG Delver - pretty fairly matched but always seems to have counters/disruption on the ready. A much more experienced player than myself, so I think that his experience helps him anticipate and time his plays better. Lilianna hitting the board is awful for my hand.
2. RUG Lands - Almost always death by Dark Depths Thespian Stage combo. I have to start w/ at least one counter in hand for Chalice for 1 or Exploration. Game 1 is always a little closer, and once sideboarding happens, I don't generally stand a chance. Multiple Chalices, Trinisphere, and Sphere of Resistance slow me down far too much.
3. Eldrazi - Hand disruption, T1 Chalice for 1, Thorn of Amethyst, and so many spaghetti monsters... This rarely makes it to T5.

My deck:
4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
2x Candelabra
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
3x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
1x Snap
12x Island
6x Fetchlands

Sideboard:
1x Turnabout
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Snap
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Pact of Negation
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
1x Capsize
1x Intuition
Still room for more cards here.

In general, I start off feeling pretty good, using a cantrip or two here and there to try and assemble the pieces (4 lands, High Tide, Time Spiral, and some counters), but feel like I never quite make it. Even on games that go to turns 6+, I find it difficult to get what I need in my hand.

My point being, I guess, that hand disruption and counters are rampant, and drastically affect our ability to go off. That said, I'm enjoying playing High Tide, even if my record is something like 2-15 for individual games, not even rounds.

[JackaBo]

I've now played about 15 or so individual games with High Tide and have managed two single wins, both of which were Game 1. The first win was against a ANT, wielded by a player new to Legacy, and the second was today against Lands.

The three decks that I face regularly are:
1. BUG Delver - pretty fairly matched but always seems to have counters/disruption on the ready. A much more experienced player than myself, so I think that his experience helps him anticipate and time his plays better. Lilianna hitting the board is awful for my hand.
2. RUG Lands - Almost always death by Dark Depths Thespian Stage combo. I have to start w/ at least one counter in hand for Chalice for 1 or Exploration. Game 1 is always a little closer, and once sideboarding happens, I don't generally stand a chance. Multiple Chalices, Trinisphere, and Sphere of Resistance slow me down far too much.
3. Eldrazi - Hand disruption, T1 Chalice for 1, Thorn of Amethyst, and so many spaghetti monsters... This rarely makes it to T5.

My deck:
4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
2x Candelabra
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
3x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
1x Snap
12x Island
6x Fetchlands

Sideboard:
1x Turnabout
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Snap
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Pact of Negation
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
1x Capsize
1x Intuition
Still room for more cards here.

In general, I start off feeling pretty good, using a cantrip or two here and there to try and assemble the pieces (4 lands, High Tide, Time Spiral, and some counters), but feel like I never quite make it. Even on games that go to turns 6+, I find it difficult to get what I need in my hand.

My point being, I guess, that hand disruption and counters are rampant, and drastically affect our ability to go off. That said, I'm enjoying playing High Tide, even if my record is something like 2-15 for individual games, not even rounds.

Sounds like you would benefit from upping spell pierce count over fluster storm. You can move one fluster to the board. You could also run more chain of vapor and hurkyls recall to adress problematic permanents in your fundamental turn.

[jasonious]

Sounds like you would benefit from upping spell pierce count over fluster storm. You can move one fluster to the board. You could also run more chain of vapor and hurkyls recall to adress problematic permanents in your fundamental turn.

Yeah, I hadn't considered Chain of Vapor before. Thanks. I'm pretty new to playing games with sideboards as well, so learning how to sideboard is like learning to play again. Mostly a casual EDH player. Luckily I have lots of coworkers who also play (some of whom play competitively) so I always have folks to playtest with.

[jasonious]

Made a few minor tweaks to fairly good success this week. Having more Spell Pierce in the main has helped a ton. I'm still not winning post-sideboard against Lands, but I went 3-1 vs Eldrazi Aggro, which has historically been a difficult deck for me to beat. BUG Delver is my next deck to figure out how to defeat. I'm prepping to play a Legacy side event this weekend at GP Toronto, so lots of practice games. Thanks for the help everyone. This thread is fantastic.

4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
2x Candelabra
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
1x Flusterstorm
3x Spell Pierce
12x Island
6x Fetchlands

Sideboard:
1x Turnabout
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Snap
1x Spell Pierce
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
3x Tormod's Crypt

[Bigturk94]

Made a few minor tweaks to fairly good success this week. Having more Spell Pierce in the main has helped a ton. I'm still not winning post-sideboard against Lands, but I went 3-1 vs Eldrazi Aggro, which has historically been a difficult deck for me to beat. BUG Delver is my next deck to figure out how to defeat. I'm prepping to play a Legacy side event this weekend at GP Toronto, so lots of practice games. Thanks for the help everyone. This thread is fantastic.

4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
2x Candelabra
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
1x Flusterstorm
3x Spell Pierce
12x Island
6x Fetchlands

Sideboard:
1x Turnabout
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Snap
1x Spell Pierce
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
3x Tormod's Crypt

I really like your list, the main-deck is extremely close to mine. However, it seems you are missing a card in your 60, I was wondering what it was.

[jasonious]

I really like your list, the main-deck is extremely close to mine. However, it seems you are missing a card in your 60, I was wondering what it was.

Good catch. It's a 4th Preordain. Most decks are very similar, so I try to keep the maindeck focused on combo and protection. I've had great luck in having a Spell Pierce and/or FoW in my opening hand almost every game, which helps out so much. I find that for turns 1 and 2, I concern my self w/ land drops, Brainstorm at the end of their turn to keep mana open for protection, and then by turns 3 and 4 I'm concentrating more on getting the pieces I need for combo.

The first few games I played, I was way too overzealous in cantriping early to try and get combo pieces but that meant that I didn't have land up for counters. Since slowing down and relaxing in the beginning, my games have gone much more smoothly. Also using a notepad for High Tide, Storm, and floating Mana is very helpful.

[jasonious]

Apologies for double posting, but I played my first ever tournament today, Legacy side event at GP Toronto, today. I went 2:2 with High Tide, which sounds decent, but in reality, it was not.

Round 1 vs Loam, 1:2 :
I comboed off on turn 5 w/ a Candelabra in play and he scooped after I hit ~30 floating mana.
Game two he crushed me w/ Knights after landing a Thoughtseize and Chains of Mephistoles early on.
Game three, I fizzled... I had 5 High Tides resolved, and on my last Spiral, I pulled 4 lands, Turnabout, and two counters.

Round two vs Elves, Bye:
My actual opponent no-showed, so I got the win. I ended up playing casually against a really fun Elves deck that stomped me both games. Game 1, I nearly comboed out but fizzled, and game two he Craterhoofed me before I knew what happened.

Round 3 vs a custom Prowess build, 0:2 :
Game 1 I was Cabal Therapied, Thoughtsiezed, and Duressed far too quickly. He played Young Pyromancer and a Monastery Swiftspear, and then used instants to buff and swing hard.
Game 2 I felt more confident as I brought in more counters and some bounces, but it wasn't enough. Dead on T3.

Round 4 vs Tendril Storm, 2:1 :
Game 1, I stopped him comboing off on T2 with a double FoW, which then drew the game out a bunch as I waited until his last card in hand to use the 2nd counter. In the end though, he was able to whittle my hand down until he was able to go off again and win it. He had to leave, so I got the win though.

All in all, it was a really fun day, despite losing 7 out of 8 games played, and most importantly, I learned a few things:
* Folks really enjoy watching High Tide being played. Every match we had a crowd of onlookers.
* Turn 4 just isn't fast enough unless you have a perfect hand, which is different for every match.
* sideboarding out a High Tide in games 2/3 is fantastic to protect the combo

[antimatter]

Hi there, pretty average legacy player here. After the top ban I left DDFT for my 2nd favourite legacy deck, high tide.

Thoughts on Probes? Went 4-1 today on league today with the following (loss was to turbo depths, made quite a few errors there too so perhaps could have won that one);

4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Preordain

3 Candelabra of Tawnos

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
11 Island

SB:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Defense Grid
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation

I added them (and cut the land) after fizzling one to many times with tide->spiral. The fact that the card literally feels like cheating is a bonus.

[dunstilbrejik]

I added them (and cut the land) after fizzling one to many times with tide->spiral. The fact that the card literally feels like cheating is a bonus.

Bricking on spiral is always a fear, and the answer I've seen is that you have to live with it a bit. You've increased your odds of spiraling into a draw spell, but I don't think the mana is actually that relevant. You could equally run serum visions. The usual number of lands is around 18, and you've cut to 17, so you might've actually optimized your deck a bit through cutting.

My personal jank solution right now is trade routes which is very mana intensive but can eliminate bricking to lands.

[Cave]

Bricking on spiral is always a fear, and the answer I've seen is that you have to live with it a bit. You've increased your odds of spiraling into a draw spell, but I don't think the mana is actually that relevant. You could equally run serum visions. The usual number of lands is around 18, and you've cut to 17, so you might've actually optimized your deck a bit through cutting.

My personal jank solution right now is trade routes which is very mana intensive but can eliminate bricking to lands.

Pore over the Pages has the same cost as Serum Visions under one High Tide, digs equally deep (3 cards), gives more card advantage, gets rid of spare lands in the deck, and actually becomes a mana producer after the second HT. Both cards are sorcery so they can't be taken with scroll. Serum vision is better pre-combo but that should not matter, as serum vision is worse than our worse cantrip (preordain) already, and you should run the full 12 cantrips anyway. If you want to run an offbeat card, potp's the best you can have imho.

[antimatter]

Another 4-1 today on league with the list above. Lost the one to BUG control with double hymn G2 + G3. That's a tough matchup, but I sideboarded incorrectly too. Brought in defense grid - I think he was actually playing more discard than counters so it did nothing. Bringing in surgical for snapcaster and stocking up on flusterstorm would have been better there!

[Mackan]

Another 4-1 today on league with the list above. Lost the one to BUG control with double hymn G2 + G3. That's a tough matchup, but I sideboarded incorrectly too. Brought in defense grid - I think he was actually playing more discard than counters so it did nothing. Bringing in surgical for snapcaster and stocking up on flusterstorm would have been better there!

How did you sideboard? I haven't played HT in a couple of weeks but I remember experimenting with cutting force of will vs grindy/fair blue decks to some success.

[antimatter]

How did you sideboard? I haven't played HT in a couple of weeks but I remember experimenting with cutting force of will vs grindy/fair blue decks to some success.

I have not tried that. My thoughts are that even though it's card disadvantage I'd often rather force hymn than let it hit (depending on hand ofc). Here's my sideboard at the moment:


Chain of Vapor
Flusterstorm
Brain Freeze
Echoing Truth
Hurkyl's Recall
Back to Basics
Meditate
Teferi's Realm
Wipe Away
Blue Sun's Zenith
Surgical Extraction x2
Grafdiggers Cage
Defense Grid x2

So not much to bring in even if I take out a force. For the grindy BUG deck I faced above with snapcasters and hymns I'd probably go -1 High Tide -1 Preordain -1 Candel +1 Flusterstorm +2 Surgical.

I haven't been impressed with back to basics, but I'm not sure what to replace it with. I'd like form of draw or filtering for grindy matchups - top would have be perfect. I like the idea of mystic remora but feel I'd need to dedicate a couple slots to them.

[Mackan]

I have not tried that. My thoughts are that even though it's card disadvantage I'd often rather force hymn than let it hit (depending on hand ofc). Here's my sideboard at the moment:


Chain of Vapor
Flusterstorm
Brain Freeze
Echoing Truth
Hurkyl's Recall
Back to Basics
Meditate
Teferi's Realm
Wipe Away
Blue Sun's Zenith
Surgical Extraction x2
Grafdiggers Cage
Defense Grid x2

So not much to bring in even if I take out a force. For the grindy BUG deck I faced above with snapcasters and hymns I'd probably go -1 High Tide -1 Preordain -1 Candel +1 Flusterstorm +2 Surgical.

I haven't been impressed with back to basics, but I'm not sure what to replace it with. I'd like form of draw or filtering for grindy matchups - top would have be perfect. I like the idea of mystic remora but feel I'd need to dedicate a couple slots to them.

Ok, so let's discuss the maindeck first. How has Pact of negation been? PoN is a lot better with gitaxian probe than without but personally I haven't even cunning wished for that card in a year. As a scroll target it's faster, but also a pretty loopsided pre-board card. I Think with enough maindeck flusterstorms it's not really needed. One of the weaknesses of the deck is that it's slow and flusterstorm is similar to PoN the turn you go off but can also be used to stop our opponent from disrupting/killing us. Your example with hymn is spot on. Forcing it is better than letting it resolve, but flusterstorm is one card less and also "uncounterable". I would switch PoN with the Sb flusterstorm for starters.

In the sideboard I am curious about your reasoning behind Chain of vapor over the more commonly played Snap. I don't like the back to basics. I Think we rather ignore the opponent as we have no way to permanently deal with the board. Making them not untap lands doesn't help us survive a delver, for example.

How has surgical been as a way to combat snapcaster? It seems ambitious but I honestly haven't tried it. It's a nice way to play around Snapcaster->flusterstorm but SE is not Worth a card in a lot of other situations.

so with your maindeck (-1 PoN +1 flusterstorm) vs "grindy bug" (assuming leovold, countermagic, surgical extraction, hymn and possibly artifact hate) I would board;

-1 force of will (you need answers to leovold but other than that there's nothing great to FoW).
-1 candelabra of tawnos (unless they have a lot of spell pierce/flusterstorm/early pressure)
-1 intuition -1 high tide (standard anti-surgical package).
+1 meditate (replacing intution and also a good card to just cast turn3)
+2 defense grid
+1 snap (for leo, still one wish-answer in the board)

I don't recommend cutting cantrips vs any deck besides stuff with chalice of the void.

How do you like the probes? Is the Life-loss relevant?

If you want to gun for 4C leovold and miracles I Think mystic remora or simply more carddraw is the way to go. there is no Counterbalance anymore so we are not under any real pressure to go off. Fact or Fiction, Predict or a maindeck meditate are the cards I would consider. Maybe 2 gitaxian probe is enough? add one more land and one of these draw spells, perhaps.

[antimatter]

Ok, so let's discuss the maindeck first. How has Pact of negation been? PoN is a lot better with gitaxian probe than without but personally I haven't even cunning wished for that card in a year. As a scroll target it's faster, but also a pretty loopsided pre-board card. I Think with enough maindeck flusterstorms it's not really needed. One of the weaknesses of the deck is that it's slow and flusterstorm is similar to PoN the turn you go off but can also be used to stop our opponent from disrupting/killing us. Your example with hymn is spot on. Forcing it is better than letting it resolve, but flusterstorm is one card less and also "uncounterable". I would switch PoN with the Sb flusterstorm for starters.

In the sideboard I am curious about your reasoning behind Chain of vapor over the more commonly played Snap. I don't like the back to basics. I Think we rather ignore the opponent as we have no way to permanently deal with the board. Making them not untap lands doesn't help us survive a delver, for example.

How has surgical been as a way to combat snapcaster? It seems ambitious but I honestly haven't tried it. It's a nice way to play around Snapcaster->flusterstorm but SE is not Worth a card in a lot of other situations.

so with your maindeck (-1 PoN +1 flusterstorm) vs "grindy bug" (assuming leovold, countermagic, surgical extraction, hymn and possibly artifact hate) I would board;

-1 force of will (you need answers to leovold but other than that there's nothing great to FoW).
-1 candelabra of tawnos (unless they have a lot of spell pierce/flusterstorm/early pressure)
-1 intuition -1 high tide (standard anti-surgical package).
+1 meditate (replacing intution and also a good card to just cast turn3)
+2 defense grid
+1 snap (for leo, still one wish-answer in the board)

I don't recommend cutting cantrips vs any deck besides stuff with chalice of the void.

How do you like the probes? Is the Life-loss relevant?

If you want to gun for 4C leovold and miracles I Think mystic remora or simply more carddraw is the way to go. there is no Counterbalance anymore so we are not under any real pressure to go off. Fact or Fiction, Predict or a maindeck meditate are the cards I would consider. Maybe 2 gitaxian probe is enough? add one more land and one of these draw spells, perhaps.

Snap is probably better there, I will make the switch. Not sure of the reasoning behind Chain over it. I have really liked Pact. In matchups where we can struggle G1 the extra free counter really helps. I also never wished for it when it was in my sideboard, but I find I scroll for it quite often. Perhaps the difference between 2 mana for scroll and 3 for wish? It does look bad in some matchups G1, however it still pitches to forces and shuffles to BS. Flusterstorm is great however the one mana =1 turn required to cast it can cost the game.

Surgical is not bad IMO. I'm not usually that unhappy to draw it as it can cause blowouts - especially with probe in the deck.

I think my opponent was running a low-counter package therefore the defense grids seemed very bad that game. Your SB plan seems good for Leovold BUG, I'm curious about the meditate MD though - do you really cast it before your combo turn? In a deck that really wants 4 lands it seems very slow!

As for probe its an absolute house, never don't want to see it, I think 4 of is the way to go. This is probably partly because I'm a bad player, but even with a good read on your opponent you may decide to wait a turn (and thus lose to some topdeck). Probe will let you know 100% if you can win now. The life loss has not been relevant for me (haven't seen much burn...), and you can always cast it for U if you have to. As a bonus you're now playing 15 cantrips. That's why i'm not afraid to cut a preordain when SBing and also cut the land in MD (more gas in deck/post spiral).

I'm 100% with you on the draw spell and I actually sided in a Fact or Fiction after my above post, curious to see how it will perform. If it does perform well I could 100% see cutting pact for it. I don't think predict is the answer unfortunately. Miracles plays a very different game to us.

[TheBoozeCube]

I'm thinking about picking this deck back up again now that Top is banned. I'm normally a 12 Post player, but I want a deck that I can audible in certain local metas, if I expect a lot of Dragon Stompy or Big Red and/or fast combo.

I haven't played Tide in years, so I have some basic questions about how its present incarnations perform:
1. Which major combo matchups are stronger/weaker?
2. How does it beat Chalice decks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cave]

1. Which major combo matchups are stronger/weaker?

ANT
G1 is okay-ish, what happens normally is that they try to grind you out with discard. Of course, they have to choose between discarding your pieces and discarding your disruption, often resulting in a mexican stallout [edit: the actual expression is Mexican Standoff, my bad] where they have combo but don't have a second discard and you don't have combo but you're full of counters. Overall not bad, i'd say 50-50. G2 is still decent, try to board out one tide and intution (against surgi) and board in some more counterspells. However, if they see Swarm, it's gonna be a stomp.

S&S
Had it only once but it's rough. G1 you gotta hope they don't understand what you play and go for Show and Tell, which you can easily flusterstorm. You have way less room for interaction (read: fow) if they go for Sneak Attack. Postside REB-effects and Defense Grid only make it worse. Plus their deck naturally shuts off the brainfreeze route.

Elves
Elves is just a nightmare in my experience. You can win G1 if you get to start and counter a key spell (glimpse/order/gsz) and they don't have a second one. G2 you get multiple therapies (because they don't really mind playing therapy and instaflashbacking it, sac'ing a dork) and NO into Ruric Thar, which is instascoop for you (wish for bounce and you've taken 12...'nuff said).

And that is all I can remember.


2. How does it beat Chalice decks?

Chalice decks are way too diverse to provide a general answer. However, your matchups against decks that run CotV are generally not that brilliant.
1. Those decks are a minority force in this metagame and you don't have to worry too much, that's a fact.
2. You should counter CotV if possible. Yes, Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance do not allow you to win, but Chalice also prevents you from finding an answer, shutting off your cantrips. So counter chalice because sphere effects are a lesser evil.
3. a. Against Stompy decks, you counter chalice and you hope they don't see nuts and get to win before you do. Maybe you can side in some bounce spell and scroll for it if you have a good hand.
b. Against Stax, you should Side in some bounce spell and let your hurkyl recall in the 15's so you can wish for it and cast it on the eot right before you plan to go off. Maybe playing 2 is the best option.

[Mackan]

ANT
G1 is okay-ish, what happens normally is that they try to grind you out with discard. Of course, they have to choose between discarding your pieces and discarding your disruption, often resulting in a mexican stallout [edit: the actual expression is Mexican Standoff, my bad] where they have combo but don't have a second discard and you don't have combo but you're full of counters. Overall not bad, i'd say 50-50. G2 is still decent, try to board out one tide and intution (against surgi) and board in some more counterspells. However, if they see Swarm, it's gonna be a stomp.

S&S
Had it only once but it's rough. G1 you gotta hope they don't understand what you play and go for Show and Tell, which you can easily flusterstorm. You have way less room for interaction (read: fow) if they go for Sneak Attack. Postside REB-effects and Defense Grid only make it worse. Plus their deck naturally shuts off the brainfreeze route.

Elves
Elves is just a nightmare in my experience. You can win G1 if you get to start and counter a key spell (glimpse/order/gsz) and they don't have a second one. G2 you get multiple therapies (because they don't really mind playing therapy and instaflashbacking it, sac'ing a dork) and NO into Ruric Thar, which is instascoop for you (wish for bounce and you've taken 12...'nuff said).

And that is all I can remember.



Chalice decks are way too diverse to provide a general answer. However, your matchups against decks that run CotV are generally not that brilliant.
1. Those decks are a minority force in this metagame and you don't have to worry too much, that's a fact.
2. You should counter CotV if possible. Yes, Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance do not allow you to win, but Chalice also prevents you from finding an answer, shutting off your cantrips. So counter chalice because sphere effects are a lesser evil.
3. a. Against Stompy decks, you counter chalice and you hope they don't see nuts and get to win before you do. Maybe you can side in some bounce spell and scroll for it if you have a good hand.
b. Against Stax, you should Side in some bounce spell and let your hurkyl recall in the 15's so you can wish for it and cast it on the eot right before you plan to go off. Maybe playing 2 is the best option.

I agree with pretty much everything Cave said above.
In general I don't think you want to face combo because all of them are faster and if they pack disruption too (like ANT) a competent pilot will be very favored against you. In general vs combo you should play to our deck's strenght which is consistency. Unless you find a window for a t4 kill you should probably take the role as the control player and maximize on countermagic. Go long and hope your opponent screws up or draw multiple Griselbrand but no enabler etc. Probe really helps here since it lets you steal games in a "mexican standoff" described above.

I would like to add graveyard decks to the list;
Reanimator is one of the worst matchups. If the format is full of graveyard decks you should bring atleast 2 grafdigger's Cage and a surgical extraction to wish for. Also helps versus Dredge (which is just an ok matchup without hate).
The fair graveyard-engines are not a problem so you don't need to worry about Life from the loam and thopter foundry which makes it easier to chose Cage over most other hate cards. It also pretty much shuts down the combo-finish (and gsz for Leovold) from Elves.

There are other combo decks but those are often more fragile than sneak/storm/reanimator so only suggestion here is to be more willing to mulligan for hate since you'll get more time if you stop their first attempt to go off. One exception beeing Marit Lage-decks and I suggest you have 1 Snap to both Scroll and Wish for. This is also one of those mexican standoffs where you can assemble the combo but don't know if you live the next turn. One advice is to keep intuition for as long as possible and if you need to counter a crop rotation you can use it to find flusterstorm and otherwise search for a combopiece during their end-step. They probably run surgical extraction so it's not bullet-proof but I found myself not wanting to tap low for a merchant scroll just to have it discarded a turn later either.

@Chalice decks.
To add to Cave's suggestions. Spend your mana every turn if possible. You pretty much dig for a way to find hurkyll's recall/force of will or combo pieces but instead of maximizing the number of cards you see by holding on to cantrips you want to burn through your deck as fast as possible before they play spheres/chalices.
Sometimes it's ok to brainstorm in their turn1 endstep. Also make landdrops. Remember that if they have no clock you will win eventually so don't be afraid to Force of Will a Chandra and leave yourself vulnerable to chalice of the void if they are low on resources. Some chalice decks run a lot of hatebears/creatures and a way to deal with this is Thing in the Ice. I am not super high on that card atm since it's hard to flip vs Prelate on 1 anyway. If the meta calls for it I really like Teferi's Realm. It seems good but I don't know yet since it's been bugged on magic online for YEARS.

[ParkerLewis]

What's a typical MD with 4 Candelabra ?

Not really having played the deck in years (I never played a match since Time Spiral got unbanned...), I would have gone with

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
12 [9E] Island (3)

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
1 [US] Turnabout
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [TE] Meditate
3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
4 [HL] Merchant Scroll
4 [US] Time Spiral
4 [M11] Preordain
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

[Cave]

What's a typical MD with 4 Candelabra ?

Half-joking, you should play different fetchlands so you're less vulnerable to Pithing Needle.

On a serious note, I never played Candelabra but a big share of people who did liked to play one copy of USZ maindeck, because Candelabra makes a lot of mana and USZ's good when you have a lot mana. Maybe -1 Meditate +1 USZ? Other than that, your list is pretty stock.

[ParkerLewis]

I had thought about it, but basically no list on mtgtop8 shows any wincon MD anymore (unless you go back to 2014). I realize you'd be using it as "normal" card draw first in that case, but still, it seems absolutely no one is doing that.

Not that there are enough lists to consider it has been solved by the community though.

[JDK]

There are no lists because no one plays High Tide anymore. :/

[Cave]

There are no lists because no one plays High Tide anymore. :/

Yeah. I've been thinking for years that Show and Tell into Omniscience is a similar but better combo, and nowadays Omnitell's a tier 1.5/2 deck at best anyway.
Compared to High Tide, Omnitell still allows you play your whole deck in one turn and chain cantrips into victory, except:

it's a whole turn faster
it allows easy splashes (red for Burning Wish, black for Thoughtseize and Lim-Dûl's Vault)
it's more resilient to hatebears or cotv
it's still sorcery speed (ht's an instant but every major businness spell in the deck is a sorcery)
it's easier to play and requires no huge spell/mana count and no calculations
it takes less time to win
it doesn't refill your hand, but it doesn't give your opponent room for counterplay either
You get the occasional T2 nuts with Show and Tell into Emrakul GG WP.


I hate to say it and i know it's pretty troll to be typing this stuff in this very thread, but imho there is no good reason to play Spiral Tide over full blue Omnitell or black based storm, except if you're a fan of the combo and would play it no matter if it's competitive or not. Spiral Tide needs Frantic Search unbanned to be able to win one turn faster and be half decent in the current metagame.

[Dice_Box]

For all of you who are still making my life hell, a discord channel has opened up here (https://discord.gg/fBUCt8S).

[Mackan]

Been playing some spiral tide again!
it's still a lot of fun and I think the deck is well positioned (slow meta).

Candelabra of tawnos has always been the worst card in the deck and often sided out. I think it's only great against the non-interactive fast decks (like burn) and that's not what I expect to play against these days. 4c Pile, miracles and combo with discard/countermagic are all pretty grindy decks. Even delver decks are on the slower side at the moment. I do have candelabras myself but it's a personal mission to spread the high tide love and not having to spend a million on those helps a lot.

4 preordain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 flusterstorm
4 predict
4 high tide
4 merchant scroll
3 cunning wish
1 intuition
3 turnabout
4 force of will
4 time spiral
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
12 Island

Sideboard
2 defense grid
1 pact of negation
2 grafdigger’s cage
2 snap
1 surgical extraction
1 flusterstorm
1 meditate
1 blue sun's zenith
1 brain freeze
1 hurkyl's recall
1 turnabout
1 echoing truth

I played 16 matches yesterday to a 10-6 result. Not great but also not bad. Most games were close and some losses were due to time out (because I was doublequeing Leagues with the legacy challenge, silly me). cantrips, predict and flusterstorm are phenomenal together. I rarely focus on the combo and just draw cards until I have 8 and my opponent has 2-3. Game 1 is very easy vs most decks.

The sideboard I'm not sure about. I like the cards but I need to map it for the most common matchups. For example I have tried to cut 2-4 Force of will against every fair deck (including delver, miracles and pile) but I'm not sure if this is correct. The idea is that these matchups are mostly about cardadvantage and not so much about tempo/bombs. Counterbalance, Leovold and the delver-draw aside. You don't want to hymn yourself if you can precit :-)

[Hohosaikou]

How consistent is Predict? Have you though about shaving a land with all the additional draw?

[Mackan]

Predict is a proven staple in Miracles at this point and I have the same setup cards in Ponder and Brainstorm plus four copies of Preordain. In that deck you also need to time the Miracle mechanic, play around wasteland etc. You get some additional help from blind counterbalance and Jace but overall I would say it's easier to set it up in this list. A big difference to miracles is that you don't need to spend mana on things like swords to plowshares etc so oftentimes you can just curve out with draw-2's. This goes hand in hand with my approach to the deck, Control-combo and keeping my guard up with flusterstorm until my opponent's end-step. An important part of that is hitting my land-drops. With 4 copies of predict as additional draw it seems like shaving a land is ok but I think it's the opposite. In fact I NEVER want to cantrip for a land if I can help it, I just dig for countermagic and predict/setup all the time unless I need a fast combo-kill. It's also a lot harder to set up a kill without candelabras when you have missed a land drop, too.

Post-spiral Predict solves the drawing of additional lands-problem ;-)
https://twitter.com/Truckis123/status/952888192721670146

5-0:ed a League!

[Mackan]

And another 5-0.

Belcher (2-1)
Turbo Depths (2-0)
4C Pile with Daze (2-1)
Sneak and show (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)

I love this deck!

Tried TiTi again, not sure what to think of that. Sided in vs delver in this league but have put him to good use vs dnt etc previously.

[TiMeWaLk]

And another 5-0.

Belcher (2-1)
Turbo Depths (2-0)
4C Pile with Daze (2-1)
Sneak and show (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)

I love this deck!

Tried TiTi again, not sure what to think of that. Sided in vs delver in this league but have put him to good use vs dnt etc previously.

Hello Mackan,

I am very surprised you managed to beat Sneak & Show and to a lesser extend Delver! Congrats.
Any comments on how went these matches?
Still the same list?
Thank,
TW

[Mackan]

Hello Mackan,

I am very surprised you managed to beat Sneak & Show and to a lesser extend Delver! Congrats.
Any comments on how went these matches?
Still the same list?
Thank,
TW

Versus sneak and show I 100% play control, meaning I will shuffle away my time spirals and high tides and just dig for countermagic and predict. A role player in this matchup after you stopped their first and maybe second attempt to combo is to wish for a meditate and just cast it eot. If they are fast to combo it generally means they will put cards into acceleration (city of traitors, lotus petal and so on) which automaticly gives you card advantage to fight the rest of the game. Their deck is also less consistent with more bad draws so the longer the game goes on the more likely it is for you to win. Most lists don't run boseiju so we should be fine here and by naturally "flooding out" their soft-counters become weaker. Try to make your landdrops but don't play more than necessary and save brainstorms if you can.

Against delver pretty much the same control approach apply, the faster their clock, the less disruption they have and the more likely it is for you to combo. Don't rush for the combo in the dark but rather make sure to get enough cards to have enough countermagic for the combo turn. They need fewer lands so that means you will need more cards (unless they have a terrible draw) to maintain parity. Again, it's highly decklist and drawdependant but a force of will and a flusterstorm with 5 lands in play should do the trick.

Here's my list:

https://twitter.com/Truckis123/status/954846378458525696

I'm on the fence about 4th flusterstorm vs 4th predict main. rest is pretty set. I also made another mix of fetches because of sorcerous spyglass and pithing needle. You will always name island when you predict in the dark so having more of of one kind of fetches makes no sense.

[TiMeWaLk]

Versus sneak and show I 100% play control, meaning I will shuffle away my time spirals and high tides and just dig for countermagic and predict. A role player in this matchup after you stopped their first and maybe second attempt to combo is to wish for a meditate and just cast it eot. If they are fast to combo it generally means they will put cards into acceleration (city of traitors, lotus petal and so on) which automaticly gives you card advantage to fight the rest of the game. Their deck is also less consistent with more bad draws so the longer the game goes on the more likely it is for you to win. Most lists don't run boseiju so we should be fine here and by naturally "flooding out" their soft-counters become weaker. Try to make your landdrops but don't play more than necessary and save brainstorms if you can.

Against delver pretty much the same control approach apply, the faster their clock, the less disruption they have and the more likely it is for you to combo. Don't rush for the combo in the dark but rather make sure to get enough cards to have enough countermagic for the combo turn. They need fewer lands so that means you will need more cards (unless they have a terrible draw) to maintain parity. Again, it's highly decklist and drawdependant but a force of will and a flusterstorm with 5 lands in play should do the trick.

Here's my list:

https://twitter.com/Truckis123/status/954846378458525696

I'm on the fence about 4th flusterstorm vs 4th predict main. rest is pretty set. I also made another mix of fetches because of sorcerous spyglass and pithing needle. You will always name island when you predict in the dark so having more of of one kind of fetches makes no sense.

Ok, thanks for the tips. I was already playing with these roles in mind, but I always saw the match-up vs Sneak as completely horrible. Maybe it gets better with less untap effect and a bit of CA via Predict.

I will try your list :)

[Mackan]

Ok, thanks for the tips. I was already playing with these roles in mind, but I always saw the match-up vs Sneak as completely horrible. Maybe it gets better with less untap effect and a bit of CA via Predict.

I will try your list :)

Please do! I appreciate any input and data. It could be just variance but atleast I feel good about most matchups now. It's not like a year ago when I lost the die roll, saw any card from my opponent and sunk in my chair lol. High tide I think was more or less a strictly slower and more fragile show and tell deck. What it has going for it is the super consistency, redundancy and ability to solve most hate-card-puzzles. I think playing control with maindeck predict is what gives us enough CA to actually maintain that Control-role. You only get so far with countermagic and no "Clock" but Predict is that clock. It's pretty much Always a draw 3 for 2 mana post-spiral too.

Edit: I made a Facebook Group labeled "Legacy High Tide". Just send an invite request if you want in :-)

[TiMeWaLk]

Sure, I just did. :)
Time to sleeve my pet deck again I guess!

[jasonious]

I've played a few more games for fun w/ my local playgroup, and I have a next to impossible time vs Colorless Eldrazi. Chalice, Thorn, Sol Lands, Eldrazi lands, all contribute to making that deck extremely fast. I've found that having FoW in hand plus a Spell Pierce means I can weather the first turn or two of hate. There are more creatures in that deck, that hit the board fast enough, that I can't Snap/Echoing Truth them away fast enough.

Game 1, I am usually pretty good against it, so long as I know that's the deck, in which case I mulligan until I have FoW and Spell Pierce in hand, but games two and three are usually a wash as they side out removal and bring in Surgical Extraction and Warping Wail, along w/ maxing out Thorn and Chalice.

Anyone else facing lots of Eldrazi Aggro in their meta?

[TiMeWaLk]

I've played a few more games for fun w/ my local playgroup, and I have a next to impossible time vs Colorless Eldrazi. Chalice, Thorn, Sol Lands, Eldrazi lands, all contribute to making that deck extremely fast. I've found that having FoW in hand plus a Spell Pierce means I can weather the first turn or two of hate. There are more creatures in that deck, that hit the board fast enough, that I can't Snap/Echoing Truth them away fast enough.

Game 1, I am usually pretty good against it, so long as I know that's the deck, in which case I mulligan until I have FoW and Spell Pierce in hand, but games two and three are usually a wash as they side out removal and bring in Surgical Extraction and Warping Wail, along w/ maxing out Thorn and Chalice.

Anyone else facing lots of Eldrazi Aggro in their meta?

Maybe a Thing in the ice in your SB may help?

[Mackan]

Got another 5-0 now trying Teferi’s realm over sideboard thing in the ice. It’s such a powerful card vs dnt and chalice decks. It’s sadly still bugged on modo so I don’t get that much testing... anyone else who’s been playing Teferi’s realm? How has it been?

[jasonious]

I'm looking to borrow a few TitI to try out, but Teferi's Realm looks like a fun alternative as well. On my turn, choose artifacts, and then away we go. TR is also much cheaper than TitI :)

[johnnyEDB]

Thanks for posting your leagues on Twitch Mackan. I watched all of them. It appears to be difficult to find recent videos of High Tide which is unfortunate because for a deck that offers so many lines of play it is beneficial to learn from others' reasoning. The version I run is similar to yours and I recently substituted 2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Meditate for 4 Predict.

In my 60 I currently run 2 Spell Pierce and 1 Swan Song over 3 Flusterstorm. On the play with unknown opponent this makes me hold up mana in the early turns to counter lock-pieces. In the combo turn after a few high tides this makes me more vulnerable to countermagic than Flusterstorm. Seeing that there is a tradeoff, how important are the Flusterstorms over the mentioned alternatives?

My sideboard is:

2 Defense Grid
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Swan Song
1 Meditate
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap

I am thinking about switching the Teferi's Realm for a Hurkyl's Recall since it is tutorable, and the Swan Song for a Pact of Negation since it is a free spell.
I want to try out the deck at a Legacy event in 10 days. Should I focus on getting the Flusterstorms or the Pact to improve the build?
Thanks!

[Mackan]

Thanks for posting your leagues on Twitch Mackan. I watched all of them. It appears to be difficult to find recent videos of High Tide which is unfortunate because for a deck that offers so many lines of play it is beneficial to learn from others' reasoning. The version I run is similar to yours and I recently substituted 2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Meditate for 4 Predict.

In my 60 I currently run 2 Spell Pierce and 1 Swan Song over 3 Flusterstorm. On the play with unknown opponent this makes me hold up mana in the early turns to counter lock-pieces. In the combo turn after a few high tides this makes me more vulnerable to countermagic than Flusterstorm. Seeing that there is a tradeoff, how important are the Flusterstorms over the mentioned alternatives?

My sideboard is:

2 Defense Grid
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Swan Song
1 Meditate
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap

I am thinking about switching the Teferi's Realm for a Hurkyl's Recall since it is tutorable, and the Swan Song for a Pact of Negation since it is a free spell.
I want to try out the deck at a Legacy event in 10 days. Should I focus on getting the Flusterstorms or the Pact to improve the build?
Thanks!

Thanks! Just happy to spread the love!
Short answer. I typically do not like countermagic versus lockpieces like chalice of the void because of the bad tempo it gives. Rather than holding up mana, that may ot may not, counter anything I rather churn through my library for a fow and, 4 lands, a spiral and a high tide. Maybe teferi’s realm. It’s simply not worth ”timewalking” yourself if they cast a thought-knot seer etc. so, for all the blue decks (non-lockpieces) i rather have flusterstorm. There are a dozen tricks which are more or less crucial. Makes sure to not get stifled, protect your predict etc. i’ll respond more later.

edit: There's also the post-spiral balance of having too much air in the deck. Flusterstorm is great vs blue since your opponent will draw their countermagic but against a lock-piece deck there's almost nothing you need to be aware of. Aether vial for something scary, warping veil, surgical extraction... maybe mindbreak trap. that's not a lot. So if you have a high density of interaction which you can draw from time spiral there's a higher chance of fizzle. Oftentimes you are forced to go off turn4 rather than turn5,6 like you can if you predict+flusterstorm grind a blue deck which means you are tight on mana so not drawing dead cards is very important. One of the reasons why I like teferi's realm is that it's a hatepiece you don't have to re-draw too. Hurkyl's recall is something I miss but I don't think I can afford the slot and I want to try teferi's realm more. The other day I was facing a t1 mother t2 Thalia, t3 teeg, t4 canonist. Teferi's realm and GG. Minimal sample size, but it felt good :P I should say that I Think realm and TiTi compete for the same slots too. I like both. How do you like Titi so far?

Pact of Negation is good in a blue meta but the differense between a meditate and a flusterstorm is not huge. It's a slot I'm on the fence about but it's a good way to protect a turn4 kill.
I think it's more important in this list than in the candelabra versions since there you can play candelabra the turn before you combo and you'll have a mana to spare for a flusterstorm.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hello guys,
Looking at the current metagame, why do you keep defense grid in your sideboard? It was really good against Tempo thresh, but now Grixis plays discard... and we need our counters during their turn. When do you side the card in?

[Kanti]

Thoughts on Mystic Remora in the sideboard? Seems pretty dang good to me, as you could drop it t1 to pretty much Standstill the game. Seems decent vs combo too, if you drop it after t1 so you can keep some Flusterstorm mana open. You could sandbag it, and drop it right before, or right after a High Tide (always before your business spells though). Going into a counter-war with a Remora on the table sounds mighty nice.

[TiMeWaLk]

I always have one in my list minimum. It is super strong against combo decks and discard, but I never drop it t1. More like t2, in order to have a bit more mana available.
Maybe I will test a second one with this meta.

[Mackan]

Sorry for the late response. I mostly post on the Facebook page or in the discord.

re: defense grid. I don't really like it for a couple of reasons.
1) the spell pierce/force of will/flusterstorm/red blast decks also run discard spells and leovold.
2) with a high tide cast there's a high chance your opponent can pay for defense grid.
that beeing said it was the best alternative I found (search for azcanta, thing in the ice, mystic remora) until I stumbled upon Hope of Ghirapuhr!
I'm pretty sure it was recommended Before but I didn't pick it up for some reason. I have played it for a few tournaments and it has been INSANE. It's a must counter vs sneak and show, miracles and an almost-must-counter vs pile and delver.

re: mystic remora. I ran 2-3 of these in the sideboard a couple of years ago and they worked really well vs discard Heavy/cantrip Heavy decks like delver and storm. I Think however that with 3-4 predict main you cover this enough allready.

[Chronatog]

Has anyone tried one Mana Severance in the deck?

There are situations when we brick just because there are too many lands in the deck and spiraling and cantriping leads nowhere. Perhaps Mana Severance can help to trim down our deck while we are tapping/untapping and searching for business spells.

Any thoughts?

[JDK]

Quick High Tide checklist:


Does it make CA? No.
Does it draw a card? No.
Does it untap lands? No.
Is it a (blue) instant? No.
Does it help in bad matchups? No.

[paradaxarada]

Spellseeker

2U

Creature - Human Wizard

When Spellseeker enters the battlefield, search may your library for an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost 2 or less, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

-

Finds High Tide, Cantrips, Merchant Scrolls, Snap, Pact, and we can also try a single copy of Pull from Tomorrow.

// 60 Maindeck

// 60 Maindeck

// 3 Artifact
3 Candelabra of Tawnos

// 23 Instant
4 High Tide
4 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Snap
1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pull from Tomorrow

// 18 Land
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
10 Island

// 12 Sorcery
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral

// 4 unknown
4 Spellseeker


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Instant
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

[paradaxarada]

And it also finds Reset on the reset version of the deck.

[JDK]

And it also finds Reset on the reset version of the deck.

Sounds like a good plan, to play non-flash creatures in an Instant-based deck. /s

[paradaxarada]

Sounds like a good plan, to play non-flash creatures in an Instant-based deck. /s

Your comment makes no sense, the card shinny on this deck, I tryed and aprooved, next!

[JDK]

Please try to use proper English...and common sense.

Why would you want to play cards which are completely useless during your combo? You could already play Merchant Scroll, if playing non-instants would be reasonable in a Reset build.

[Poron]

In a world with Time Spiral Legal, Reset Tide makes no sense.

Can be a worth add in a Sorcery speed based deck it also fuels Snap with more worthy targets apart from Snapcaster Mage

You can also Snap chain it

That into Snap
Snap target it
That into second Snap
Snap target it
That into Braingeyser

Too bad it doesn’t draw you a card

[Ralf]

In a world with Time Spiral Legal, Reset Tide makes no sense.

Can be a worth add in a Sorcery speed based deck it also fuels Snap with more worthy targets apart from Snapcaster Mage

You can also Snap chain it

That into Snap
Snap target it
That into second Snap
Snap target it
That into Braingeyser

Too bad it doesn’t draw you a card

Relying on the Snap -> Snapcaster loop is very dangerous. You turn "live" quite a few oppo's cards (spot removals) that would be otherwise blank...

[Poron]

Well the whole thing is to higher the storm count or to reach six spells after you have played a Sentinel Tower

[JDK]

In a world with Time Spiral Legal, Reset Tide makes no sense.
Well, that's a completely different topic. Playing Tide makes no sense with ANT being a legal deck, if you want to take this further. :tongue:


Well the whole thing is to higher the storm count or to reach six spells after you have played a Sentinel Tower
Not sure, if it's worth adding a non-scrollable/wishable Wincon. Besides, Lands would like it, if their Krosan Grips would make this horrible matchup winnable (given someone has to play/plays the Tower before it can be triggered for lethal).

[Poron]

Storm scoops to a turn 0 Bloodmoon. Tide doesn’t

If Frantic Search was legal I would totally give this deck a chance

[JDK]

Storm scoops to a turn 0 Bloodmoon. Tide doesn’t
That's exactly why ANT sees no play and High Tide does. Oh wait! :wink:

I think you missed the point. "It makes no sense to play" is completely irrelevant when someone "wants" to play a certain deck, despite having better options in terms of power.

[paradaxarada]

All your argument is based over the footnote of my main comment, where I make a observation about one fact?

Come on, let’s try to be efficient, keeping our focus on what really matter, the Time Spiral version.

Also, if you think that there is no reasons to play High Tide as Storm is a deck, no one is forcing you to manifest. All we want is to tread a new path, bring fresh air to the deck, try to me more productive on your next comment.

I will repost the list for those who have not seen:

// 60 Maindeck

// 3 Artifact
3 Candelabra of Tawnos

// 23 Instant
4 High Tide
4 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Snap
1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pull from Tomorrow

// 18 Land
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
10 Island

// 12 Sorcery
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral

// 4 unknown
4 Spellseeker


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Instant
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

[paradaxarada]

Also, I think the card Snap by itself is a good reason to try High Tide again, as we are living a scenario where decks like Reanimator, Turbo Depths and Death and Taxes are becoming more and more popular, so, be where you have a answesr to Chancellor, Thalia and Marit Lage is a good place to be.

As Chalice decks are also popular on the actual scenario, on decks like Mono Red, Mud, Steel Stompy and Stax, have access to responses to Chalice and Spheres on game one is also pretty good.

But even with these qualities, I would not be playing/trying Tide if it where not for this new card (Spellseeker) so promising, which in my view, has the ability to combine all those ingredients mentioned above, and transform into something that really works on actual Legacy reallity.

[JDK]

All your argument is based over the footnote of my main comment, where I make a observation about one fact?

Come on, let’s try to be efficient, keeping our focus on what really matter, the Time Spiral version.

Also, if you think that there is no reasons to play High Tide as Storm is a deck, no one is forcing you to manifest. All we want is to tread a new path, bring fresh air to the deck, try to me more productive on your next comment.

Footnote? You even made a new post. Anyway, why should I not be allowed to make viable points about a specific "footnote" or post? If you don't want people commenting on something, don't post it.

"Being productive" is something I save for the rare cases in High Tide threads, where people don't try to put sorcery speed stuff into Solidarity or overcosted do nothing cards into Spiral Tide.
I don't share your enthusiasm for the new card, but I will wait and see. Just not in Solidarity. ;)

I agree about one part though: post Solidarity stuff in the Solidarity thread.

That being said, why on earth do you increase the amount of fetches compared to regular builds?

[Poron]

Why Pull From Tomorrow if Braingeyser is a card?

[paradaxarada]

Why Pull From Tomorrow if Braingeyser is a card?

Merchant Scroll

[Dr_D]

Storm scoops to a turn 0 Bloodmoon. Tide doesn’t



TES sure doesn't

[Poron]

TES sure doesn't

They do it to Chalice@:0:

[Dr_D]

They do it to Chalice@:0:

You said storm scoops to T1 bloodmoon.

[Poron]

You said storm scoops to T1 bloodmoon.

I said it, but I mean generally to Big Red maindeck hate.

Anyway how do we deal with Thalia and Gaddock Teeg?

[l33twash0r]

I said it, but I mean generally to Big Red maindeck hate.

Anyway how do we deal with Thalia and Gaddock Teeg?

Wish for Snap, E.Truth or wipe away

[Poron]

I would have wished into Kozilek’s Return or Slaughter Pact

[JDK]

And expose yourself to wasteland?

A splash is not necessary, when you have access to Chain of Vapors, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away etc as well as Thing in the Ice, which is a beast when it comes to multiple hate pieces postboard.

[Poron]

Yeah, I am super new to the deck

Thing in the Ice is a good solution

[mistercakes]

the idea i had with it was with sapphire medallions and high tide.

assuming you have turn 2 sapphire, and turn 3 high tide.

cast this new guy for 1U, get snap. cast snap for U. untap 2 lands (U remaining)
recast him. get snap #2. cast snap for U (untap 2 land) (UU remaining)
recast him. do same thing.
recast him. do same thing.

(now you have UUUU) + 2 untapped lands. (tap for 8 mana)

Cast him for UU, get merchant scroll, cast scroll, get intuition, cast intuition, get 3 snapcaster.

Cast snapcaster targeting snap. Cast snap on snapcaster.

Untap 2 lands. (u remaining), tap both (uuuuu)

Cast snapcaster, target other snap. Return snapcaster again. Tap both islands (now UUU UU UU)

Do this twice more. Ends up with UUU UU UU UU UU and all lands tapped.

Cast snapcaster one last time. And grab merchant scroll to get cunning wish.

Cast cunning wish to get blue sun zenith. Cast new guy to get brain freeze.

Cast brain freeze and then blue sun zenith them for 1 card, or if you think the draw step will kill them then get anything

I'm not sure if this is the optimal build, but being able to kill with just a medallion, a high tide and one of this new guy is pretty powerful.

Thoughts? Too janky?

[ScatmanX]

I'm not sure if this is the optimal build, but being able to kill with just a medallion, a high tide and one of this new guy is pretty powerful.

Thoughts? Too janky?
I like it.
Not saying I think it's good, but would like to try it.
Do you have a sample list?

[Parcher]

Thoughts? Too janky?

Anytime a Combo deck immune to spot removal, makes itself very vulnerable to any spot removal, there had best be a extremely powerful reason.

[mistercakes]

Yea that was my fear too Parcher.

[Poron]

We are not talking about Nexus of Fate? Super target for CWish who can open a world of design.

In this deck can be infinitely cast during the combo opening potential win via creatures or through one sided pillars

We just need a blue Instant who drops creatures

[bruizar]

How is Will Kenrith's -2 for high tide?

[Mackan]

Some first thoughts about Spiral tide in the upcoming meta and the meta as a whole.

With Deathrite Shaman gone the small blue fair deck (deathrite-delver) and the big blue fair deck (deathrite-pile) are beeing replaced by Canadian, Team America, UR-delver and Ux/blade, Leovold midrange, miracles, grixis Control, noble fish. Instead of beeing all the good stuff from each archetype people now have to chose between playing good cards or having a good manabase. With deathrite gone this also opens up for other turn-1 tempo plays like Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey. Stifle will make a comeback because the mana-denial strategy is easier when your average opponent does not have a bird of paradise in play on turn 1. Basic lands will be playable again. Not only because of wasteland/stifle but because a one or two-color deck now can compete in the format where it was previously just underpowered compared to the greedy deathrite-hymn-leovold-Chandra-abrupt decay-swords to plowshares decks.

Glass-cannon graveyard decks will see less play and slower graveyard based strategies will make a comeback. Without maindeck graveyard hate from Deathrite Shaman I Think the all-in Black red reanimator will take a step back for it's more consistent blue-black cousin. Midrange stuff like Bloodghast, Knight of the Reliquary and Life from the Loam etc will probably see more play too.
People will obviously pack more graveyard hate in their sideboard so the graveyard based decks will not take over the format at all. Just be a pillar again. It will be intresting to see what this results in since not all graveyard hate is good versus every deck and now they have access to silent gravestone, fatal push etc. From now on we probably play atleast one more graveyard hate in the sideboard than Before.

With Gitaxian Probe gone the meta will slow down. Gurmag angler shows up later, cabal therapy is less brutal and people will "go for it" less often when playing combo. I don't Think storm is dead at all, quite the opposite with deathrite out of the format and "worse" decks taking it's place. It will just be half a turn slower and better at grinding with past in flames.

What does all of this mean for Spiral tide?

I Think the deck becomes a lot better for a number of reasons.

1) Deathrite delver is out of the format. The Power of DRS did not excel against Spiral tide (we don't use the graveyard as much as other combodecks) but as a whole public enemy number one was an unfavored matchup. Even in the hands of a new player just trading cards 1:1 for 1 or less mana goes a long way against any deck needing resources to win. I was also struggling with finding a reliable plan to beat the Deathrite Shaman decks when they had access to all of the disruption in the format. If I had Defense Grid they would tear my hand apart with Cabal Therapy and if I instead wanted to grind with Predict they had a fast kill. From now on I can better prepare for what I expect to happen.

2) The less lean decks replacing 4c Delver/Pile will have access to less angles of attack and be atleast a turn slower.

3) Mana denial is a real strategy again. Canadian, Team america, Death and taxes and maybe even Pox will see some play. We play few fetches and TWELVE basic islands.

What's worse?

1) non-leovold Hatebears will see more play out of green decks. Thalia and Gaddock Teeg will show up in more game 1's. These are annoying even though it's the angle of attack that we are least concerned about compared to chalice of the void, countermagic and hymn to tourach. A 2/2 is simply not a clock and they don't stop us from sculpting our hand and making landdrops. As long as we are not dead we can Cunning wish for a bounce spell and go off. Postboard Spirit of the Labyrinth, Ethersworn Canonist and Sanctum Prelate are more troublesome but decks packing those will most likely not have access to discard and counterspells. A force of will and a snap before turn 6 should be all we need.

2) Esperblade and miracles will make a comeback. These are reasonable matchups but still worth mentioning. A good player with access to discard, hatebears and countermagic is scary. As long as their Clock is True-name Nemesis or Lingering souls it should be ok.

What will my first Changes to the list be?

I said that I think the format will slow down as a whole. This is a good thing for a turn 4 deck like Spiral tide but this also means that a lot of other "slow" decks will make a re-apperance. Burn for example has very few cards that we care about but even if it's considered "fair" will kill us before we combo off. Same goes for Merfolk (allthough most lists now play Chalice of the void). For this reason Candelabra of Tawnos looks better than Before.

On the other hand these fair midrange decks are most likely packing disruption in the form of countermagic and discard spells and to fight that we need card draw. We also need the carddraw in every matchup where we take the role as the Control deck (versus other Control decks and combo).
It will be intresting to see which angle of attack Speed/value (or both?) we prefer. Grim Flayer somewhere in the curve of Thoughtseizes and Liliana of the veil will kill us eventually unless we go off fast or draw enough cards.

So Candelabra is probably the biggest change to consider, most likely in the Predict slots. I don't think it's needed but if your goldfish is too slow it's worth looking into.
It also suffers from beeing weak to stifle, artifact hate (including otherwise "dead" cards as K-command and abrupt decay) and needle/revoker/spyglass.

There are actually very few changes I will make right of the bat. The only thing I'm quite sure of is to replace the hope of girapuhrs with Defense Grid now that the delver decks no longer has access to birds of paradise and discard spells. Defense Grid is probably the best answer there is to countermagic but it just sucked to play it and getting Cabal Therapied. Defense grid suffers from some artifact hate but if you play it with flusterstorm backup turn 3 most fair blue decks scoops on on the spot. Hope of Girapuhr is still a great card but it requires more setup than Defense Grid. You don't have to worry about bolt, baleful strix and lingering souls. Hope of Girapuhr was nice against show and tell though so it's worth keeping in mind still. Speaking of SnS that deck gained ALOT of traction from the bannings so we might need to consider Swan song again.

I will also consider Pact of Negation. When the meta is slowing down we probably don't need to counter to stay alive as often as we need to counter protecting our combo. Pre-Drs I used to like PoN as a wish target but it's no longer as reliable because of Flusterstorm.

Search for Azcanta is also worth revisiting. I really wanted it to be good but in the hyper efficient DRS-meta it was just a 2 mana scry 2 far too often. Now we can probably stay alive long enough for it to flip and OMG then it's nice on the combo turn together with Turnabout.

TL;DR So I'm very happy with the bannings, I love that Legacy becomes a format with a lot of different decks, I also Think that Spiral tide will be a great choice moving forward. If you have any questsions or disagree with what I just posted please let me know! Meta-shifts cascade into a lot of unpredictable changes and we don't know how fast. For day-1 of the new format I will sleeve up the same list as Before with Defense Grid replacing Hope of Girapuhr and cut 1 predict for a Search for Azcanta to try it out.

Happy Tidings Indeed! <3

[Kanti]

Long time Solidarity player, and High Tide player in general. Iirc I got into the format playing Spring Tide, then moved into some other stuff, before full circling back into Solidarity. Sometimes lurk here, but excuse me if I get some things wrong as I'm not used to sorcery-speed High Tide. One of the more interesting things I saw was the adoption of Predict (how crazy is it that Predict slept under everyones noses for so long in the format? I swear that engine could have been played as soon as Lorwyn came out, like 8 years ago. I digress.) I see you mentioned twice cutting Predict though. Is it not one of the more powerful engines in the list?

I think GY decks are definitely gonna come back, but we still might see a lot of B/R Reanimator now that they don't need to be on the play g1 to get a DRS out of their opponents hand. If the format is slowing down I don't think that's a reason to make people want to play slower decks. This isn't so much a discussion on Spiral Tide, and I think with 4-5 cards in the sb you can definitely handle any variant, but it is tough. The Storm match-up seems to have gotten worse though. They are going to replace their Probes with Thoughtseize. This is madness.

Slow decks will make a little come-back, and it will have a ripple effect on the rest of the format. What do you think of Mystic Remora instead of Defense Grid? You can drop it t1 to help protect vs an onslaught of spells, or drop it right before comboing off.

[johnnyEDB]

Some first thoughts about Spiral tide in the upcoming meta and the meta as a whole.

TL;DR So I'm very happy with the bannings, I love that Legacy becomes a format with a lot of different decks, I also Think that Spiral tide will be a great choice moving forward. If you have any questsions or disagree with what I just posted please let me know! Meta-shifts cascade into a lot of unpredictable changes and we don't know how fast. For day-1 of the new format I will sleeve up the same list as Before with Defense Grid replacing Hope of Girapuhr and cut 1 predict for a Search for Azcanta to try it out.



How is your experience now that the meta took some shape? In my experience the matchups against Miracles, Stoneblade, Lands, Depths and NicFit variants are good -maybe in general slow control/midrange. I have a hard time beating fast Delver and Combo decks (SnS) and in particular DnT. Against Reanimator we may be too slow with Cunning Wish -> Surgical. I basically play your list replacing one Flusterstorm with an Echoing Truth and in the Sideboard replacing Titi with 2x Defense Grid, 1x Swan Song, 1x Pact of Negation.

I like a one of Defense Grid against SnS and play it during the combo turn as a must counter. I am thinking about replacing 2x Grafdigger's Cage with 2x Tormod's Crypt as a way to deal with Emrakul reshuffle triggers and have less cards to "mill" with BSZ. In general, my strategy is to go for the "Brain Freeze" kill as soon as the storm count is >15, if possible with backup mana to draw cards myself to keep the combo going.

EDIT: After some more games I think control without a clock is not a problem at all. Only when they put up some creatures, combined with discard and counterspells we get in trouble. Therefore I replaced the 2x Defense Grid with 2x Propaganda. Anybody tried this? I think Propaganda is exactly what we need postboard to slow down the clock enough or tap out the opponent.

[Jak]

I've been toying a lot with my list and trying to test it against some of the more popular decks; only against myself, though, so I don't put too much weight on the results. Getting back into the game, I am trying to get a feel of how the format flows and how to approach the different matchups. I am excited to get out and play it though. I feel like all games are tough, but you always have a shot.

Lands - 18
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
12 Island

The Combo - 11
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout

Manipulation - 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Predict

Tutors - 7
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish

Counters - 6
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

Flex - 3
1 Snap
1 Meditate
1 Counterspell

I am never completely in love the combination of the flex slots. A lot of times I have the 4th Predict, or 3rd Flusterstorm, or a Snapcaster Mage that can pair with Snap, etc.

SB
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
2 Teferi's Realm

I do want to see about the new card.

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_giztSiV1bc.png

I think it deserves a slot in the SB as a wish target. The SB has slots that are in a constant flux as well. Not sure what I want to trim to fit in the card. I like Divert against this Hymn metagame, but Spell Snare, or Mystic Remora could fill the slots.

Anyway, just thought I would drop by and share my list. Hopefully I can get some ideas or feedback regarding it or the new spoiled card. Thanks all!

[jasonious]

Anyone here looking at playing Mission Briefing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=452794) in High Tide?

Mission Briefing
UU Instant
Surveil 2, then choose an instant or sorcery card in your graveyard. You may cast that card this turn. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead. (To surveil 2, look at the top two cards of your library, then put any number of them into your graveyard and the rest on top of your library in any order.)

Basically a Snapcaster without a body. I haven't played Legacy in a long time, but this card stands out as potentially helpful for High Tide.

[schweinefettmann]

I’d say it’s good. I play it in solidarity, and it works as a mini impulse as well in a pinch. Also, allows us to pitch-force (snapcaster gives the card flashback only) or misdirect if you happen to use it.
That being said, I think 2-3 copies is probably good. Not sure how spiral tide works too well, but I assume that it’s close enough to solidarity that it’s a good guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[schweinefettmann]

Sorry for double posting, but I just realize that you don’t do candelabra of tawnos + capsize? Chuck a capsize on the SB as a wish target and get infinite mana/wipe their board if u so wish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ThiefSlayer]

Hey, just passing by to say that according to THIS ANNOUNCEMENT (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-online-announcements-january-15-2019-2019-01-15) Teferi's Realm is working correctly on MTGO. I don't know if it's still widely used by this strategy, but some time ago I had bought this deck online and stopped playing because teferi's realm was so good at getting rid of hate. Now this is not a problem anymore.

[Mackan]

https://theepicstorm.com/spiral-tide-i/

let me know what you guys think and what I should add for part 2 :)

[ComeOnAndSlam]

I've been trying out a Spellseeker build, using Spellseeker + Snap to generate mana. It's posssible it's too cute, but I really like the toolbox plan that Spellseeker enables.

High Tide (Spellseeker):

Maindeck (60)
4 Spellseeker
1 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Ponder
1 Brain Freeze
1 Braingeyser
1 Echoing Truth
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Mission Briefing
4 Snap
1 Intuition
4 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
15 Island
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard (15)
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Predict
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Absolutely not sure about the SB, but given the excellent article is bringing attention to my favorite Storm-ish deck, I figured I'd post it for thought.

[joaquin]

https://theepicstorm.com/spiral-tide-i/

let me know what you guys think and what I should add for part 2 :)

Thank you for your primer! I have been a long time fan of high tide and have always wanted to build it, but I've been worried that it just wasn't good enough to put up any good results (but I play goblins so I guess I shouldn't complain about decks that aren't super competitive). Thanks for putting those worries to rest!

As a non high tide player, and as someone who is relatively new to legacy and doesn't have much experience playing against the deck, there are a few things I would like to see in part 2.

First of all you mention that the deck plays like a control deck, but it's hard for me to understand quite what you mean by that. I see the cunning wishes that can search for bounce spells, and I see the obvious counterspells mainboard, but when I think of control I think of dealing with problems as they arise. Aside from the wishes and counters I'm not sure how the deck deals with those problems. So I guess I'd like to know how to deal with the most common problems the deck encounters, and what the deck doesn't care about. For example when you see a turn 2 thalia and a rishadan port and maybe a mother of runes, what is your usual approach to getting through this situation? That kind of specific info.

I would also like more of a sideboard guide if possible. For example you could group certain decks into categories and list exactly what you would cut and bring in for those types of matches. Something new players could quickly refer to when learning how to play the deck.

Finally (and I know it would be more of a pain to do this) I'd love to see you actually play the deck with commentary. Watching skilled players think out loud in real time as they play a variety of decks is really interesting and helpful. Maybe you already have this kind of footage available and I just don't know where to find it haha.

Anyways really great job, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and I really feel like putting the deck together to try soon.

Cheers!

[merfolkotpt]

This is a random question, but might lead to some helpful information in the next article. The random question is why no meditate anymore. The larger and more helpful version is, you talked a lot about the cards you play, but not as much about the changes to the deck from what might be expected barring not playing candle sticks.

[schweinefettmann]

Thank you for your primer! I have been a long time fan of high tide and have always wanted to build it, but I've been worried that it just wasn't good enough to put up any good results (but I play goblins so I guess I shouldn't complain about decks that aren't super competitive). Thanks for putting those worries to rest!

As a non high tide player, and as someone who is relatively new to legacy and doesn't have much experience playing against the deck, there are a few things I would like to see in part 2.

First of all you mention that the deck plays like a control deck, but it's hard for me to understand quite what you mean by that. I see the cunning wishes that can search for bounce spells, and I see the obvious counterspells mainboard, but when I think of control I think of dealing with problems as they arise. Aside from the wishes and counters I'm not sure how the deck deals with those problems. So I guess I'd like to know how to deal with the most common problems the deck encounters, and what the deck doesn't care about. For example when you see a turn 2 thalia and a rishadan port and maybe a mother of runes, what is your usual approach to getting through this situation? That kind of specific info.

I would also like more of a sideboard guide if possible. For example you could group certain decks into categories and list exactly what you would cut and bring in for those types of matches. Something new players could quickly refer to when learning how to play the deck.

Finally (and I know it would be more of a pain to do this) I'd love to see you actually play the deck with commentary. Watching skilled players think out loud in real time as they play a variety of decks is really interesting and helpful. Maybe you already have this kind of footage available and I just don't know where to find it haha.

Anyways really great job, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and I really feel like putting the deck together to try soon.

Cheers!
I’ll try to answer some of the questions you ask (bear in mind, I play solidarity, spiral tide’s insane sibling):

Control vs not control - I think were confusing terms. High tide is always control (in the context of control vs beat down) because we know that the longer the game goes, the higher our win percentage, no matter what our opponent plays (unless you’re playing against solidarity or another spiral tide deck). When you think control, I think you meant as in creature removal, counters, and other things to reduce opposing tempo. So we are talking about 2 different controls.

Against thaalia, she doesn’t actually affect me too much - I just combo through her. I imagine spiral tide does so at an even easier rate, since they can end up tapping for 10 mana per island. Heck I’ve had opponents who thought that wasting my only green source would keep me off green - all it does is make me go off in response to that ability dangling on the stack until they die!

Sideboard guide would be nice to see too. But I guess it’s meta-dependent, and player dependent. For example, I struggle against eidolons and Marit Lages, so I actually run a 1-of dominate on the side to kill eidolon/kill the depths player with. It’s very bad, but it’s a personal failing of mine, but it works for me. The problem with high tide sideboards is that some number of slots are used for the wish board, so you really have to have weaker, but more broad answers to decks that do well against you.

My high tide matches usually go to time. And then way past that. I’d also be interested to watch a high tide expert pilot a match or two just to see how it goes. But to be honest, it’d be even more amazing watching a game of solidarity and another of spiral tide. The spiral tide game will show a lot of how to actually combo through, whereas watching solidarity will show how to abuse your opponent’s actions in game.

If I had opportunities to stream, I’d give it a go. Unfortunately, I don’t have the skills to actually teach the skills and nuances, nor do I have the time to do it (life sucks sometimes..).

I’ll ask those guys at the legacy pit if they’d be able to do a game like that, since they’re the only ones I know of that stream all sorts of decks.

Also, who doesn’t play meditates anymore? Maybe it’s a transformational sideboard plan, but main deck, 3-4 meditates allow us to churn through cards to keep the combo going. I’ve tried 4 accumulated knowledge before, and thought it was too unreliable, and three wishes is even worse than meditate (since it doesn’t actually draw me anything, and has limited applications pre-combo).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jonesypunk]

High Tide is my favourite deck of all time and since his creation. I rarely play it, because in my LGS no one likes to play against it.

The deck is one if not the most difficult to play with, not the combo part because if you understand how the deck works the combo will be "mechanic", and i rarely go on turns. The difficult part is survive, and setup to start the combo.

The choices of brainstorm/ponder/preordain are very important and very hard to make.

The Worst match ups for me are Elves, UR Delver (any Delver deck is hard), Burn, Eldrazi: Because they present a very fast clock that you cant race.

Control match ups, game 1 is not very Hard (lots of dead cards against us), game 2 is almost impossible and game 3 is very difficult (if your opponent understands how high tide works).

Against combo, well, find counters, stop them their first try and maybe second... And then combo for the win.

High Tide (Spiral Tide) is the most resilliant combo deck, they can surgical extraction our cards and still we can find a way to win if we have time to do so.
The last time i played the deck against Death&Taxes i easelly won against Thalia, Mother, Sanctum Prelate (on 1) and Cannonist on table, waiting to the last minute with 2 life left bounced end turn cannonist, Tapped 7 islands, Turnabout, Timespiral, Cunning Wish for bounce spell on Prelate ... And Win.

Love the deck , and i dont even care if i loose, just want to combo and make my opponents sweat.

Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

[schweinefettmann]

I gotta say though, I feel like solidarity will always beat spiral tide.. but I get what you mean by spiral tide being the most resilient.

Or at least I can’t imagine losing when my opponent gives me the look with brain freezes/BSZ on the stack.. is just go ‘opt’ and then go off!

I’m really interested in trying to get high tide playable again though.. for me, too, it’s a bit of a pet deck, but eidolons and whatever other pressure they have are such a pain to deal with during setup. I’d even put in memory lapse just to ‘time walk’ them. But it’s still not very good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jonesypunk]

I gotta say though, I feel like solidarity will always beat spiral tide.. but I get what you mean by spiral tide being the most resilient.

Or at least I can’t imagine losing when my opponent gives me the look with brain freezes/BSZ on the stack.. is just go ‘opt’ and then go off!

I’m really interested in trying to get high tide playable again though.. for me, too, it’s a bit of a pet deck, but eidolons and whatever other pressure they have are such a pain to deal with during setup. I’d even put in memory lapse just to ‘time walk’ them. But it’s still not very good.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt would be fun really, Reset Vs Spiral, but i think you are wrong. In the era of Dig Throught Time i played Solidarity and it was fun and i understand how it works. Also in the early days of High Tide, back then i played a lot the mirror match, and it was a "mexican stand of". To beat Reset, the first 2 turns would cantrip for lands, after that just brainstorm/predict in your turn and do nothing in mine, until find Turnabout to tap you in end of your turn (this would happen about turn 15) ohhh it would be so sweet.

High Tide still works now, but it isn't like the early days, due to the amount of hate that exists and the clock, so it is much harder and we have to get better matchups or opponents without enougth knowledge about our strategy. I think we only will be able to really compete if, and only if we can consistently be a turn faster (frantic search) and we get new cards to support our strategy to dodge hosers (i doubt that would happen).

Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

[schweinefettmann]

It would be fun really, Reset Vs Spiral, but i think you are wrong. In the era of Dig Throught Time i played Solidarity and it was fun and i understand how it works. Also in the early days of High Tide, back then i played a lot the mirror match, and it was a "mexican stand of". To beat Reset, the first 2 turns would cantrip for lands, after that just brainstorm/predict in your turn and do nothing in mine, until find Turnabout to tap you in end of your turn (this would happen about turn 15) ohhh it would be so sweet.

High Tide still works now, but it isn't like the early days, due to the amount of hate that exists and the clock, so it is much harder and we have to get better matchups or opponents without enougth knowledge about our strategy. I think we only will be able to really compete if, and only if we can consistently be a turn faster (frantic search) and we get new cards to support our strategy to dodge hosers (i doubt that would happen).

Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

Oh man, frantic search would be great!

I dunno about your way of beating solidarity.. I suppose it’d depend on how able your turnabout would be protected/stopped. But yea, completely agree in that it’d be an interesting match!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grokh]

What about this new card :

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/8/c/8c39f9b4-02b9-4d44-b8d6-4fd02ebbb0c5.jpg?1555740529

Combo with Time spiral, is a kinda Leovold mono U, and help you tutor your combo pieces !

Thoughts ?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Combo with Time spiral, is a kinda Leovold mono U, and help you tutor your combo pieces !

Thoughts ?

The timing is kind meh. When you are about to spiral you are already 100% commited to go off this turn - your opponent would have used his disruption already.

But yeah at least he wont draw a force so there is that. And its only a slightly overcosted impulse...

Idk man the decklist is so thight not really sure if its worth it!

[schweinefettmann]

It’s probably good enough for spiral tide. It’s a well costed gain some life, hose their cantrips, and peer through depths in 1 card (or some combination therein).
The trick is whether or not you’re willing to burn an early high tide to drop it turn 2 to buy you more time during setup.
Also, not refilling your opponent’s hands post spiral is probably relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[merfolkotpt]

Man am I the only one who is excited to have the sideboard back up plan of saheeli now? Mono blue young pyromancer, let's go. Heck you could run 4 delver 4 Saheeli in the board in turn into a medium delver deck post board.

[schweinefettmann]

Man am I the only one who is excited to have the sideboard back up plan of saheeli now? Mono blue young pyromancer, let's go. Heck you could run 4 delver 4 Saheeli in the board in turn into a medium delver deck post board.

Not sure... I tested it in a mono blue/UR painter list, and saheeli was underperforming. Tokens don’t fly, and unless you’re planning to ram like 8-12 of them off casting saheeli, why not just combo off like normal anyways?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[feline]

Well I own a set of Candels again after having to sell them a couple years ago. Still have to get 3 Forces/2 Time Spirals. After that, might force myself to do some Sunday classics & see what happens. I'll keep in touch some. List is looking a lot like something out of 5 years ago. Though no tops, so a 1 of main deck Mediate is back in. Also the Eldrazi and other increased permanent based hate seems to be a bigger issue now, so a few counterspells in addiction to flusterstorms are looking to be in the list, just more counter heavy overall. Probably 2-3 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard instead of Counterbalance. Also likely cutting Capsize since there's no more top's, you can infinite mana but can't infinite draw anymore.

[aedemiel]

You are back to show us to get the job done?

[feline]

You are back to show us to get the job done?

I have no idea, I don't even know if I can get the job done individually, but will see though.

[bruizar]

I have no idea, I don't even know if I can get the job done individually, but will see though.

What’s your take on echo of eons and lions eye diamond? It seems busted to me.

Are there any other printings that are good for this deck and have you ever thought about splashing a color?

[schweinefettmann]

What’s your take on echo of eons and lions eye diamond? It seems busted to me.

Are there any other printings that are good for this deck and have you ever thought about splashing a color?

Feel free to test, but it’s not usable in spiral tide nor solidarity.

It draws 7, but it doenst untap lands, and it makes you dump your hand if you use led. That is, bad if you don’t also run notion tgief. But that’s the start of a brew I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[feline]

Echo and Lion's Eye Diamond is a different deck at that point.

Experimenting with the following:

4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Time Spiral
1 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
6 Fetchland
12 Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
-sb-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique

-I like Defense Grid but it's risky to play it and pass the turn.
-The maindeck counterspells could also potentially be Remand or Repeal, anything to slow the game down, but I just have a bias towards actually countering as some permanent based hate flusterstorm can't target.
-This deck should at worst be 50/50 against the average combo deck. If a combo deck wins, it's likely cause it's faster & had a better hand, but as each turn passes, the likelihood of winning increases dramatically, especially with this many counterspells.
-Even though Sensei's Divining Top is gone, I am ok with this. I'd rather lose top in the deck if it means not having to fight counterbalance/top combo ever again, that was one of the biggest hurdles to overcome once it got going.
-I'm not going for the Spellseeker/Sapphire Medallion setup, as Spellseeker is a creature & I am purposely avoiding turning on potential opposing cards from the opponent. I want creature removal/graveyard hate/artifact hate/etc to be as dead as possible. If they want to waste a turn making candels useless, that is fine with me.
-As far as Predict goes, I would have to either cut candels or preordain. I like preordain as much as brainstorm/ponder since they can be cast from turn 1 when you might need to fish for more lands from the get-go. As far as cutting candels goes, I think the benefits of running them means they're worth it. I understand most people just can't afford them, so that makes sense as well. (If you don't have Candels, just run more Turnabouts and add a single Snap to the maindeck, it randomly bounces hatebears & of course, untaps.)

Other card options:
-1 maindeck Meditate, 1 maindeck Snap are still a possibility.
-1 sideboard Capsize, but with top gone can't infinitely draw anymore, so getting echoing truth and replaying candels is likely fine if you need mana that bad.

[jonesypunk]

Echo and Lion's Eye Diamond is a different deck at that point.

Experimenting with the following:

4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Time Spiral
1 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
6 Fetchland
12 Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
-sb-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique

-I like Defense Grid but it's risky to play it and pass the turn.
-The maindeck counterspells could also potentially be Remand or Repeal, anything to slow the game down, but I just have a bias towards actually countering as some permanent based hate flusterstorm can't target.
-This deck should at worst be 50/50 against the average combo deck. If a combo deck wins, it's likely cause it's faster & had a better hand, but as each turn passes, the likelihood of winning increases dramatically, especially with this many counterspells.
-Even though Sensei's Divining Top is gone, I am ok with this. I'd rather lose top in the deck if it means not having to fight counterbalance/top combo ever again, that was one of the biggest hurdles to overcome once it got going.
-I'm not going for the Spellseeker/Sapphire Medallion setup, as Spellseeker is a creature & I am purposely avoiding turning on potential opposing cards from the opponent. I want creature removal/graveyard hate/artifact hate/etc to be as dead as possible. If they want to waste a turn making candels useless, that is fine with me.
-As far as Predict goes, I would have to either cut candels or preordain. I like preordain as much as brainstorm/ponder since they can be cast from turn 1 when you might need to fish for more lands from the get-go. As far as cutting candels goes, I think the benefits of running them means they're worth it. I understand most people just can't afford them, so that makes sense as well. (If you don't have Candels, just run more Turnabouts and add a single Snap to the maindeck, it randomly bounces hatebears & of course, untaps.)

Other card options:
-1 maindeck Meditate, 1 maindeck Snap are still a possibility.
-1 sideboard Capsize, but with top gone can't infinitely draw anymore, so getting echoing truth and replaying candels is likely fine if you need mana that bad.One card that i started loving in High Tide is Mission Briefing that can allow to play something that was discarded and can help you play something twice or even a Brain Freese with lower storm count (remand trick), i tried all the numbers but i'd say 1 is pretty solid. You may wan't to try it.

Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

[feline]

A new primer has been written here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33113-Primer-Legacy-High-Tide-Primer

New discussion can follow there. I don't have time to update this primer like I did 6 years ago. Mods may close/move this thread. I'll be furthering any discussion myself there, the new primer is very detailed. Thank you chaosumbreon87.