[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[cdnza]

I'm going to try the Dig/wishless list for the first time properly tonight. Threw my sideboard together last night and it's pretty random but can't change it now.

List is standard (with 1 Trop main over the 10th fetchland) with SB:
3 Counterbalance,
2 Flusterstorm,
1 Tropical Island,
3 Abrupt Decay,
1 Chain of Vapor,
2 Massacre,
1 Dread of Night,
1 Shelldock Isle,
1 Emrakul

I wanted to try out the Shelldock board plan for the first time. Wanted the Dread of Night to be a Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild or something but couldn't find either. Will update when I get home!

[emidln]

I'm not very high on Shelldock Isle->Emrakul. The issue is that while decks used on only have Wasteland and Needle, they now also have Terminus.

[bjholmes3]

I've been playing emidln's UB list from Storm Boards lately as a budget standby for ANT and it's been excellent. The list is a surprising mix of resilience and speed, and having access to FoW and Dig is quite nice.

I've been testing this at my LGS against ANT, and while I admit I need more practice, I had a fair bit of trouble winning fast enough. We mostly played without boarding (which is another reason I probably had trouble, our G2 improves more than theirs), but when I boarded the plan was +4 FoW -2 LED -1 LP -1 ToA. Is this appropriate?

Edit: I'm very interested in the Counterbalance tech being discussed, particularly because I love SDT to death and tend to keep any hand that can play it. My meta so far has some Delver, ANT, MUD, Lands, and a bunch of glass cannon combos, so I feel that CB would do some serious damage. Has anyone tested this? I really appreciate Vintage Doomsday, as it's pretty much a control storm deck, and I would main this deck in a heartbeat if it could adopt that identity and succeed.

Edit 2: BTW, I've gotten pretty familiar with standard piles and variations, but what is the value of Chromatic Sphere? I'm not questioning it's value, I just don't know what it is.

[Doishy]

Edit 2: BTW, I've gotten pretty familiar with standard piles and variations, but what is the value of Chromatic Sphere? I'm not questioning it's value, I just don't know what it is.

Sphere is a cantrip that cannot be responded to. As it's ability is a mana ability and has card draw attached it means when you complete your lab man pile and activate sphere; they cannot path/bolt/decay your maniac in response. :)

[bjholmes3]

Oh, that's actually brilliant. I was wondering why it was recommended to use the Lab plan against Miracles, now I get it

[the driver]

I've been playing emidln's UB list from Storm Boards ...

... I had a fair bit of trouble winning fast enough....

Edit 2: BTW, I've gotten pretty familiar with standard piles and variations, but what is the value of Chromatic Sphere? I'm not questioning it's value, I just don't know what it is.

Once you get more experience and move beyond the standard piles you'll recognize more combinations of winning cards / situations. You lose some velocity without Wish. Don't be afraid of early pass the turn piles vs decks without permission.

[bjholmes3]

Yeah, even just goldfishing a couple hours afterwards with Netflix helped immensely

[DireNTropy]

I am writing a report on my (somewhat disappointing) performances at Eternal Weekend and at the SCG Premier IQ in Milwaukee.

In the meantime, here are two videos of my matches at the last two weekly events at my LGS.

https://youtu.be/VaLY_CpSwl0?t=2376

https://youtu.be/i7QZ6JEmcKA?t=4929

Yes, I am paired against dredge both games. Also, I didn't need to Time Spiral in the first match, I can win with Burning Wish into Doomsday, and I lost some percentage points by playing Gitaxian Probe before fetching (I realized afterwards that I didn't have the mana to activate top twice). I think this build of Doomsday is very fast and is also resilient to much of the commonly played sideboard cards.

Here's the deck:

Mainboard

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Silence

4x Burning Wish
3x Doomsday
1x Ideas Unbound

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Mox Opal

4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Seat of the Synod
*I've been switching between silence and orim's chant

Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Pyroblast

1x Massacre
1x Void Snare
1x Cabal Therapy

1x Doomsday
1x Time Spiral
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
*I've been switching between pyroblast, swan song, and spell pierce

I have had very little trouble enabling Metalcraft and Mox Opal has led to very fast wins, higher velocity setup, and a much more easily cast Empty the Warrens.

Monastery Mentor has won me at least 4 out of 5 games it resolves (which is easy since it ignores spell pierce, flusterstorm, pyroblast, Chalice of the Void, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, etc). Looping two Sensei's Divining Tops with Lion's Eye Diamond mana is super fun. Most times I win the turn after resolving a Monastery Mentor (I have found 2 tokens is usually sufficient). Even if Monastery Mentor is removed, 2 or 3 tokens can easily race creature decks.

[Dr_D]

I am writing a report on my (somewhat disappointing) performances at Eternal Weekend and at the SCG Premier IQ in Milwaukee.

In the meantime, here are two videos of my matches at the last two weekly events at my LGS.

https://youtu.be/VaLY_CpSwl0?t=2376

https://youtu.be/i7QZ6JEmcKA?t=4929

Yes, I am paired against dredge both games. Also, I didn't need to Time Spiral in the first match, I can win with Burning Wish into Doomsday, and I lost some percentage points by playing Gitaxian Probe before fetching (I realized afterwards that I didn't have the mana to activate top twice). I think this build of Doomsday is very fast and is also resilient to much of the commonly played sideboard cards.

Here's the deck:

Mainboard

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Silence

4x Burning Wish
3x Doomsday
1x Ideas Unbound

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Mox Opal

4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Seat of the Synod
*I've been switching between silence and orim's chant

Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Pyroblast

1x Massacre
1x Void Snare
1x Cabal Therapy

1x Doomsday
1x Time Spiral
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
*I've been switching between pyroblast, swan song, and spell pierce

I have had very little trouble enabling Metalcraft and Mox Opal has led to very fast wins, higher velocity setup, and a much more easily cast Empty the Warrens.

Monastery Mentor has won me at least 4 out of 5 games it resolves (which is easy since it ignores spell pierce, flusterstorm, pyroblast, Chalice of the Void, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, etc). Looping two Sensei's Divining Tops with Lion's Eye Diamond mana is super fun. Most times I win the turn after resolving a Monastery Mentor (I have found 2 tokens is usually sufficient). Even if Monastery Mentor is removed, 2 or 3 tokens can easily race creature decks.

This list looks really interesting. Which matchups do you board mentor in and what do you remove for it? I've tried it as a sideboard card and had trouble deciding on what to cut when they come in.

[DireNTropy]

In my opinion they come in to help get around sideboard cards; it's much easier to resolve a Monastery Mentor than a Doomsday against a hand full of Flusterstorms, Pyroblasts (for Ideas Unbound) or a board of Thalia, Counterbalance, Chalice, or Meddling Mage. The full playset of Lotus Petals and the two Mox Opals enable turn 2 (even turn 1!) Monastery Mentor with relative consistency. The idea is, rather than fight against the more narrowly focused interaction against your primary, mainboard plan, you have a powerful plan ignoring most interaction. This strategy is especially effective since most decks will board out removal.

I would also bring them in against discard decks and decks with Extirpate effects (winning with Doomsday is very difficult without Lion's Eye Diamonds, Burning Wishes, or Doomsday).

I think the better question is, which decks don't you board into this plan with, and also, which cards do you replace with Monastery Mentor, and this is a new concept; I'm still figuring out which matchups to bring them in and what to replace.

Against faster decks where Empty the Warrens is a poor plan:
-3 Burning Wish
-1 Swamp
-1 Ponder
-2 Protection

+4 Monastery Mentor
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Counters


Against tempo/stoneblade:
-3 Doomsday/Burning Wish
-2 Thoughtseize/Silence

+4 Monastery Mentor
+1 Cabal Therapy


Against Death and Taxes, Chalice of the Void decks, and Burn (Burning Wish retains utility after lock pieces have come into play):
-3 Doomsday
-2 Cabal Therapy/Silence (Death and Taxes - suggestion by emidln)
-1 Dark Ritual

+4 Monastery Mentor
+2 Chain of Vapor
*I am 3-0 against Death and Taxes with this build! (edit: replace Silence against Death and Taxes)


For sure, I don't sideboard Mentors in against:
-Elves
-Dredge
-Merfolk


A quick note: Chain of Vapor is very effective at triggering prowess by bouncing your own artifacts!

[emidln]

Against Death and Taxes

-3 Doomsday
-2 Cabal Therapy
-1 Dark Ritual

+4 Monastery Mentor
+2 Chain of Vapor
*I am 3-0 against Death and Taxes with this build!

A quick note: Chain of Vapor is very effective at triggering prowess by bouncing your own artifacts!

I'd probably cut Silence before Cabal Therapy against Death and Taxes. I realize that Silence looks like a Time Walk, but it usually trades for a Wasteland or a Petal and that's not exactly excellent unless you're killing next turn. Cabal Therapy is also an overrun-type effect with mentor, in addition to being able to hit Thalia (hint: almost always name thalia). I'd likely to go as far as siding in the extra therapy.

I'd test cutting Wish instead of Doomsday too. I don't think you really want to ETW against them do you? -4 Burning Wish would let you bring in Massacre as a card you can draw plus a Tendrils. This would at least be worth testing, as it increases your threat density (I don't buy that Wish is a credible threat here).

[DireNTropy]

I agree on bringing in Cabal Therapy and replacing Silence against Death and Taxes; I was thinking more about the Burn and Chalice matchups (I will trade lands against Chalice of the Void decks more readily than against Death and Taxes).

I also agree that in the traditional Doomsday builds (17 land, 1 Petal), Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens is both too inconsistent and not powerful enough (tough to get more than 8 or 10 goblins) against Death and Taxes.
However, Empty the Warrens in this build (15 land, 4 Petal, 2 Mox) is closer to The Epic Storm, which has a great matchup against Death and Taxes largely because of being able to cast a reasonably large turn 1 or turn 2 Empty the Warrens. Also, having Burning Wish with a Monastery Mentor on board tends to trigger Prowess at least twice, if not three times (with Cabal Therapy or Void Snare), and has more utility than Doomsday after a Thalia/Chalice of the Void resolves. I did however, beat a Chalice of the Void + Blood Moon with Doomsday on turn three in the last tournament, although a lot more effort was required.

I might agree to switching Burning Wish for Doomsday in builds running Laboratory Maniac since this makes Doomsday into a much more viable win condition after a lock piece is on board. Without Burning Wish or Laboratory Maniac, winning with Doomsday requires racing against a 2 mana lock-piece (I would expect some number of Ethersworn Canonist), quite a gamble, drawing the one-of Massacre or Void Snare rather than being able to wish for them (siding out Burning Wishes really only frees up 1-2 slots if these are brought in), or building up a very large amount of mana on the combo turn against a resource-denial strategy.

Finally, do you think leaving in one Burning Wish is important enough to increase storm when casting Doomsday (and isn't Tendrils of Agony one of the worst cards to draw in this matchup)?

[l33twash0r]

So since Dig was banned and people had moved to list with 3-4 of them is it back to the old good Wish version with then?

[Emrakul503]

Is this deck getting any attention before the GP?

[luchius]

1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday

1 Lotus Petal
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Rain Of Filth
1 Lab Maniac
1 Chromatic Sphere

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Empty The Warrens
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou
1 Thoughtseize

I went 5-4 at Eternal Extravaganza
Losing to

Miricales (3 Counterbalances out at the same time)
TES (He won the Dice roll and went off turn one Game 1 & 3)
Reanimator (A hard match up)
Death And Taxes (stupid Misplay)

I am thinking of cutting the Thoughtseize for a Karakas in the board to help with Reanimator as well as Show N Tell and DnT

I will be at SeaTac with this list

[Emrakul503]

How well do you think the deck is positioned against the field right now? What does it struggle with? Are you worried about Sneak Attack or any other fast combo strategies?

[Chaam]

Has anyone tried to make this a more combo control style of deck? Sort of like how it is played in Vintage?

I was thinking of trying out the following list:

Interaction (14)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will

Cantrips (15)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
3x Gitaxian Probe

Combo (9)
4x Doomsday
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Chromatic Sphere
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Lion's Eye Diamond

Mana (22)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
2x Carpet of Flowers
4x Dark Confidant
2x Disfigure
2x Duress
1x Echoing Truth
2x Flusterstorm
2x Grafdigger's Cage

[Dr_D]

Has anyone tried to make this a more combo control style of deck? Sort of like how it is played in Vintage?

I was thinking of trying out the following list:

Interaction (14)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will

Cantrips (15)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
3x Gitaxian Probe

Combo (9)
4x Doomsday
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Chromatic Sphere
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Lion's Eye Diamond

Mana (22)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
2x Carpet of Flowers
4x Dark Confidant
2x Disfigure
2x Duress
1x Echoing Truth
2x Flusterstorm
2x Grafdigger's Cage

If you're trying something like this, Top is still better than Preordain. I get you want to up the blue count for force, but Top is just infinitely better. Also you likely still want at a lotus petal in the main.

[Chaam]

Your right, tops are a must have. They are just too good in the deck. But in order to have enough blue cards for force, I'll take out discard and add more counters. But with counters, I can't really win with LED so I think the Thought Scour/Predict + Unearth plan may be better. However, that opens you up to GY hate and removal. I think a misdirection for Decay is necessary. I think Decays and counters can handle GY hate.

How about this list?

Interaction (15)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
3x Flusterstorm
3x Spell Pierce

Cantrips/Tutors (15)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Gitaxian Probe

Combo (8)
4x Doomsday
1x Thought Scour
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Unearth

Mana (22)
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3x Carpet of Flowers
4x Dark Confidant
3x Disfigure
1x Flusterstorm
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sylvan Library

There are only 6 cards that are useless outside of the combo. I'm not sure of Dark Confidant in the side vs. BUG/Jund/Miracles since I have Forces, Misdirection and my combo requires life.

[Dr_D]

Your right, tops are a must have. They are just too good in the deck. But in order to have enough blue cards for force, I'll take out discard and add more counters. But with counters, I can't really win with LED so I think the Thought Scour/Predict + Unearth plan may be better. However, that opens you up to GY hate and removal. I think a misdirection for Decay is necessary. I think Decays and counters can handle GY hate.

How about this list?

Interaction (15)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
3x Flusterstorm
3x Spell Pierce

Cantrips/Tutors (15)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Gitaxian Probe

Combo (8)
4x Doomsday
1x Thought Scour
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Unearth

Mana (22)
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3x Carpet of Flowers
4x Dark Confidant
3x Disfigure
1x Flusterstorm
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sylvan Library

There are only 6 cards that are useless outside of the combo. I'm not sure of Dark Confidant in the side vs. BUG/Jund/Miracles since I have Forces, Misdirection and my combo requires life.

Looks like it'll play similarly to the Menendian version, but with decays instead of discard. If that's the kind of deck you want to play, then it should be fine. Having tried the Menendian version, I'd always rather play DDFT.

[l33twash0r]

So anyone playing this deck right now or switched to other storm variants?

[the driver]

So anyone playing this deck right now or switched to other storm variants?

Yes. People still play this deck.

[davelin]

So anyone playing this deck right now or switched to other storm variants?

Someone made Top 8 in Memphis with the deck.

[nevilshute]

Looking to pick up some doomsday on mtgo again and give this another whirl. Has anybody had any luck using Dark Petition in any way, shape or form? I'm thinking about including one in the main deck. Haven't played this deck since the days of Treasure Cruise so not really sure what to expect.

[Asthereal]

Looking to pick up some doomsday on mtgo again and give this another whirl. Has anybody had any luck using Dark Petition in any way, shape or form? I'm thinking about including one in the main deck. Haven't played this deck since the days of Treasure Cruise so not really sure what to expect.
If you play Burning Wish, here's no real reason to add Dark Petition.
I think playing 4x Wish and 3x Doomsday should be plenty of business.

For non-Wish builds:
The fact that you can't easily cast it from LEDs also makes it weaker.
I'd probably advise Peronal Tutor or Lim-Dul's Vault before Dark Petition.

[the driver]

If you play Burning Wish, here's no real reason to add Dark Petition.
I think playing 4x Wish and 3x Doomsday should be plenty of business.

For non-Wish builds:
The fact that you can't easily cast it from LEDs also makes it weaker.
I'd probably advise Peronal Tutor or Lim-Dul's Vault before Dark Petition.

Pretty much this. Burning Wish is more mana efficient, doesn;t force you combo combo in the same turn, and has way more utility. If you feel x3 Wish x3D lacks business add the 4th Wish. I doubt you'd want DP on top of those...or Personal Tutor / LDV for that matter.

Some people tried cutting all Wishes for DP. It wasn't very elegant. You had to cut lands or cantrips, both of which this deck wants more of typically, and add more rituals to make DP viable which lowered card quality. You had to value cantrips so much it stifled card filtering.

Lately most people are working on different sideboards. A few MD ideas kicking around but nothing radical.

[nevilshute]

Thanks for the replies. Back when last I played the deck I ran just 1 petal and then 3 wish, 2 treasure cruise.

I like going up to 2 petals in lieu of one of the cruises, not sure what the other slot should be. Guess it could be wish #4 but I find that too many wishes a clunky hand makes. That was where I was considering the DP, but I think what you guys are saying makes sense regarding how it needs more rituals to really be viable. Don't really like LDV nor Personal Tutor so actually maybe the 4th wish just really is my best bet...

Don't suppose something like Painful Truths falls in your taste in the old Treasure Cruise slot? With just a grixis base and dark rituals I'd be worried about not being able to always draw 3. Further more the life loss seems way too relevant.

I saw someone playing 3 petals so yeah... maybe.

[Asthereal]

Pretty much this. Burning Wish is more mana efficient, doesn;t force you combo combo in the same turn, and has way more utility. If you feel x3 Wish x3D lacks business add the 4th Wish. I doubt you'd want DP on top of those...or Personal Tutor / LDV for that matter.

Some people tried cutting all Wishes for DP. It wasn't very elegant. You had to cut lands or cantrips, both of which this deck wants more of typically, and add more rituals to make DP viable which lowered card quality. You had to value cantrips so much it stifled card filtering.

Lately most people are working on different sideboards. A few MD ideas kicking around but nothing radical.
Jup. Wish trumps almost all other options easily.
It also allows you to play the kill on side, making the list smoother.
The only question is: are you willing to play a colour just for Wish?
I decided it's worth it, but some prefer to not splash red just for Wish.

[wsurugby10]

So I have all of the pieces to put Doomsday together. I've been playing ANT and I assume it is very similar. What is the "optimal" build right now. I found this online and I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on it.


Prentice Britton
7th Place at StarCityGames.com Super IQ on 1/31/2016
Main Deck:
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Ponder
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lotus Petal
3 Doomsday
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Meltdown
1 Time Spiral
1 Doomsday
1 Tropical Island

Also, where is the a great place to find primers, general play tips and Doomsday pile lists? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[mistercakes]

So I have all of the pieces to put Doomsday together. I've been playing ANT and I assume it is very similar. What is the "optimal" build right now. I found this online and I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on it.


Prentice Britton
7th Place at StarCityGames.com Super IQ on 1/31/2016
Main Deck:
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Ponder
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lotus Petal
3 Doomsday
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Meltdown
1 Time Spiral
1 Doomsday
1 Tropical Island

Also, where is the a great place to find primers, general play tips and Doomsday pile lists? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

https://login.proboards.com/register/2500671

there is a ton of info there.

[sillysam71]

So I have all of the pieces to put Doomsday together. I've been playing ANT and I assume it is very similar. What is the "optimal" build right now. I found this online and I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on it.


Prentice Britton
7th Place at StarCityGames.com Super IQ on 1/31/2016
Main Deck:
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Ponder
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lotus Petal
3 Doomsday
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Meltdown
1 Time Spiral
1 Doomsday
1 Tropical Island

Also, where is the a great place to find primers, general play tips and Doomsday pile lists? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

This list seems pretty close to where you want to be. I would probably swap out a Lotus Petal to add a Chromatic Sphere for Lab Man piles, but that's the biggest change.

Does anyone have a link to the old cheezeburger list of piles or any other documents like that? I have basically a packet printed out at home of all sorts of obscure piles that I used when learning the deck.

[sillysam71]

Found it: https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1onAp8XmBLHTUP71xw1w_z0_LAiTo5EWJR4YQmAMgTkY&hl=en

All of this stuff is on the storm boards like mistercakes suggested.

[Mhenlo]

There is no real optimal list for doomsday because it has so many options it will always be meta game dependant. There are a core few cards most people would say are uncuttable.

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Sensei'S Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
6 Discard/Chants
7 Flex (More Protection Spells, 4th Burning Wish, Lotus Petals, Laboratory Maniac, Rain of Filth, More Lands)
16 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand/Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Fetchable Red Sources
2 Flex Spot(Tundra+Scrubland,More basics/Fetches/Duals)

SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Massacre
12 Flex
Trop+ Decays
CoV
Meltdown
Laboratory Maniac
Karakas
Infernal Contract
Empty the Warrens
2nd Tendrils

So much more

[DireNTropy]

MTGO Leagues Report

I am trying a new build of Doomsday that goes all in on a transformative sideboard (see below) and decided to cut red, opting instead to use Lim-Dul's Vault over Burning Wish. I am still trying out various numbers of Mox Opal. I took the deck through a League with a 4-1 result, where my 1 loss may have been due to a misplay.

Round 1 - Miracles

Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Doomsday
Ponder
Ponder
Preordain
Gitaxian Probe
Underground Sea
Flooded Strand

This hand is great! A single Dark Ritual away from a turn 2 win with 2 extra cantrips. My opponent mulligans to 6 and leads with Island and Top. I draw Tendrils of Agony for my turn, which means that I cannot use the standard 2 cantrip pile. I fetch an Island and preordain, drawing a Brainstorm leaving a Top on top. I Brainstorm into an LED, a Dark Ritual, and a second copy of Doomsday and decide to not go for the win this turn, but look for discard, especially since I have Tendrils of Agony on top of my deck. My opponent untaps and plays Counterbalance. We draw-go for few turns and I sculpt my hand. My opponent plays a Mentor and on turn 8 I have two Tops in play and my hand is Tendrils of Agony, Dark Ritual, LED, Probe, Probe, Doomsday, and Ponder. I lead with a Probe and my opponent responds by looking with Top, then tapping it. In response I play a Dark Ritual, Top into a Brainstorm, Brainstorm into a Dark Ritual. I play out all my spells where most are countered and I end with a Tendrils for 22.

Win - Turn 8 Natural Tendrils (with turn 2 combo available without protection)
TRANSFORM
-4 Doomsday
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ideas Unbound
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Dark Ritual
-1 Tendrils of Agony
+4 Monastery Mentor
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Meddling Mage
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - I mulligan a no-land hand into:
Meddling Mage
Abrupt Decay
Brainstorm
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Tundra

Hooray, Brainstorm fixes everything! My opponent leads with Tundra into Top. I draw a Scrubland and Duress away a Counterbalance, leaving a Ponder, Terminus, Mentor, and Snapcaster in hand. I play a Meddling Mage naming Monastery Mentor. My opponent misses on a Ponder. I Brainstorm into a Top and 2 Decays. My Meddling Mage is hit by Terminus and my opponent starts making land drops. I draw Mentor and my Cabal Therapy is met by a Force of Will. I Decay my opponent's Mentor and draw a Meddling Mage. I cast it, naming Force of Will, play a Mentor, make 3 tokens and pass. I attack for the win next turn through a Snapcaster.

Win - Turn 8 Monastery Mentor/Meddling Mage beats

1-0 (2-0)


Round 2 - UR Delver

Game 1 - I win the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Lim-Dul's Vault
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flooded Strand

This hand is great. I fetch an Island and Ponder into a Flooded Strand, leaving Brainstorm and Duress on top. My opponent plays Probe, Island, Delver. I draw Duress and pass. I cast Lim-Dul's Vault end of turn, pay 4 life, and find Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and Land... wow. I cast duress, discard a Force of Will, leaving Force of Will, Price of Progress, Forked Bolt, and 2 lands in hand. Sadly, due to the life loss from Lim-Dul's Vault, I am 1 mana short of winning due to the Price of Progress preventing me from casting Probe for free (cannot fetch a swamp with my Flooded Strand). My opponent does not find a blue card and I win with 1 life to spare with the standard cantrip + LED pile.

Win - Turn 4 Doomsday
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Monastery Mentor
Dark Confidant
Gitaxian Probe
Duress
Lotus Petal
Cavern of Souls
Island

Great. My opponent leads with Volcanic Island into Delver. I draw a Preordain, cast it, and draw a Polluted Delta. My opponent flips Delver with Brainstorm and passes. I play Lotus Petal, Cavern of Souls (Human), Monastery Mentor, Probe, Probe, and laugh at my opponent's hand of:
Force of Will
Force of Will
Flusterstorm
Daze
Daze
Brainstorm
I Brainstorm and Therapy my opponent, leading to a concession.

Win - Turn 4 Mentor (cast on turn 2)

2-0 (4-0)


Round 3 - Storm

Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Ideas Unbound
Ponder
Dark Ritual
Mox Opal
Polluted Delta
Scrubland

Probably the worst keepable 7 card hand. My opponent fetches an Underground Sea and Ponders. I regret keeping this hand. I draw an LED and Ponder, keeping a Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal, and Land. My opponent cantrips. I play a Cabal Therapy on Infernal Tutor and miss, seeing Dark Ritual x2, Cabal Ritual, LED, and Cabal Therapy. I play out my artifact mana and pass. My opponent mirrors me, and I cast Lim-Dul's Vault at the end of their turn, finding a Doomsday. I punt by not putting 2 Tops in the pile to generate extra storm (I have 5 extra mana) and lose by 1 storm.

Loss - Turn 3 Doomsday (Ideas Unbound) PUNT
-1 Doomsday
-1 Preordain
-2 Ponder
+2 Dark Confidant
+2 Meddling Mage

I am unsure about this plan, but I figure that Dark Confidant will be good in a discard-heavy matchup, and Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is likely unanswerable post-board.

Game 2 - On the play:
Meddling Mage
Meddling Mage
Doomsday
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top
Flooded Strand

This hand is a great 5-card hand, so I keep. I play a Top and pass. My opponent probes and cantrips. I draw Dark Ritual and win.

Win - Turn 2 Doomsday (Top + LED)
I sideboard back to my mainboard configuration since I expect my opponent may bring in Abrupt Decays for Meddling Mage.


Game 3 - On the draw:
Doomsday
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony
Cabal Therapy
Flooded Strand

I try to mulligan, but I can't. My opponent mulligans, cantrips, and passes. I draw a Lim-Dul's Vault, cast Cabal Therapy on Dark Ritual, hit one, and leave my oppoent with Infernal tutor, Dark Petition, Duress, and Flooded Strand. My opponent Duresses a Doomsday. I draw Top, play it and pass. My opponent cantrips and passes. I tap Top to draw Brainstorm and Flooded Strand and pass with mana open to protect my 3 Dark Rituals from a Cabal Therapy. My opponent casts Tendrils of Agony for 14, leaving me at 5 and them at 31; this was correct as I was about to win with a natural Tendrils next turn and Doomsday usually has difficulty storming far past 10. I brainstorm, putting two Tops into play and sculpt my hand. A few turns later, I cast Duress, 3 Dark Rituals, Doomsday (4x Dark Ritual + Doomsday), Probe, cycle my Tops 6 times, and cast Tendrils for 30.

Win - Turn 7 Natural Tendrils.

3-0 (6-1)


Round 4 - Miracles

Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Preordain
Gitaxian Probe
Mox Opal
Lotus Petal

I have two chances to draw either a land or a Petal/LED (22 outs), so I keep. My opponent leads with Flooded Strand and passes. I draw a Top and Probe (Force, Snapcaster, Terminus, Venser, 2x Scalding Tarn) into a Polluted Delta, fetching a Sea, play Top, Petal, and Mox Opal. My opponent plays a land and passes. I draw a Doomsday and my attempt to Brainstorm is hit by Pyroblast. I Brainstorm again, find Ponder and Lim-Dul's Vault, but no land. My opponent plays a land and passes. I attempt to cast Lim-Dul's Vault on my upkeep but am met by a Snapcaster on Pyroblast (I should have remembered this from Probe). My opponent finds a Counterbalance. I cantrip and pass. My opponent plays a Mentor, attacks, and passes. I find my Tendrils and lead with Duress, taking a Swords to Plowshares (if I find a 0-1 CMC spell in my top 4 cards I win). I Brainstorm into Island, Doomsday, Doomsday. I spin Top, miss, and am forced to Tendrils my opponent to 4. I lose soon thereafter.

Lose - Turn 8; I think I punted with terrible sequencing on cantrips.

TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 2: I draw my opening 7:
Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Sensei's Divining Top
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Tropical Island

I open with Sea into Duress, which is met by Force of Will. I cast Therapy off of Petal, naming Top and hit, seeing Counterbalance, Flusterstorm, Island, and Scalding Tarn. My opponent plays an Island and passes. I draw a Cavern and play Therapy. My opponent responds with a Brainstorm (boooo). I miss, seeing a Venser and a Jace. I play Top. My opponent plays Counterbalance. I play a Tundra and pass. My opponent plays a land and passes. I find a Mentor, tap Top, play Cavern, Mentor, and Top (Force of Willed). My opponent topdecks an Izzet Staticaster. I Brainstorm into Probe, and hold up Brainstorm for the Staticaster. My opponent reveals Rest in Peace on top, so I flashback both Cabal Therapies and attack for 6. I Brainstorm in response to the Staticaster activation and my opponent scoops.

Win - Turn 6 Mentor


Game 3 - On the draw:
Monastery Mentor
Dark Confidant
Cabal Therapy
Brainstorm
Flooded Strand
Flooded Strand
Island

My opponent mulligans and plays Island, Top. I respond with Sea into Therapy, naming Counterbalance. I miss and see Brainstorm, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, and Venser. My opponent brainstorms into a second island. My Dark Confidant is Forced (Venser). My opponent finds a Counterbalance. I play a Mentor and make 2 tokens. I Ponder into Top, flashback a Therapy on Red Blast (hit), and my Meddling Mage is hit by Mindbreak Trap. A better play would have been to flashback Therapy (I miss out on 4 damage this way), and play Meddling Mage on Terminus. My opponent miracles Terminus in response to the Top. I topdeck Cavern and Mentor, but am met by a Snapcaster Mage flashing back Mindbreak Trap and I lose soon after.

Loss - Not sure if I punted this game

3-1 (7-3)


Round 5 - Aggro Loam

Game 1 - I win the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Doomsday
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea

This hand is great and I lead with Sea into Top and pass. My opponent plays Barren Moor and passes. I draw a Ponder, Brainstorm into land, Probe (to check for Chalice) into Mox Opal, see Sylvan Library, Punishing Fire, Knight of the Reliquary, and lands. My opponent plays Sylvan Library. I find a Dark Ritual and win (Mox Opal was needed).

Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (2 Cantrip Pile)
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Monastery Mentor
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Abrupt Decay
Duress
Lotus Petal
Scrubland

This is fine. My opponent leads with a Bojuka Bog. I draw Dark Confidant and play it off of a Lotus Petal. My opponent plays a Chalice on 1. I miss on lands and pass. My opponent plays a Dark Confidant. I draw a land and Petal, Decay the Confidant, and attack. Next turn I cast Mentor, Petal, and cast Brainstorm into Chalice. My opponent gets a Knight off of Green Sun's. I cast many spells into Chalice and win.

Win - Turn 6 Mentor/Dark Confidant Beats

Win Cons
-Won with Doomsday 3 times (1x Turn 2, 1x Turn 3, 1x Turn 4) (1x Turn 3 punt)
-Natural Tendrils 2 time (1x Turn 7, 1x Turn 8)
-Monastery Mentor beats 4 time (cast on turn 2, 2x turn 4, turn 7)

TLDR
4-1 (9-3) in MTGO Daily Event
2-0 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. UR Delver
2-1 vs. ANT
1-2 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Aggro Loam

Thanks for reading and I'll be interested in any feedback!

Here's the deck:

Mainboard

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Preordain

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Doomsday
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Tendrils of Agony

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Opal

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Dark Confidant
2x Meddling Mage
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Abrupt Decay



Notes
Lim-Dul's Vault vs Burning Wish
Not having Burning Wish can often lead to having 1 less storm in the pile (which led to my miscount in game 1 of round 3), which can be mitigated by using two Tops to generate storm.

Also, having a Tendrils of Agony in the deck also allows us to fight against Counterbalance relatively well, using Top to make land drops and naturally cast 10 spells. I believe this configuration has the best pre-board game of any storm deck against a resolved lock-piece.

Lim-Dul's Vault overperformed and I am unsure if I was especially lucky with the results or if finding Dark Ritual + Doomsday is a relatively common outcome. This allows us to play only 4 Dark Rituals without having to run Rain of Filth.

Monastery Mentor/Cavern of Souls/Dark Confidant
Previously I would board in 4 Monastery Mentor and have a hybrid post-board plan. I have found that this leads to many games drawing half of each strategy, so I decided to increase the size of the transformative sideboard which required the aforementioned switching from Burning Wish to Lim-Dul's Vault. Cavern of Souls outperformed my expectations (see round 2 game 2) and allowed me to ignore many hands stacked with countermagic. I am unsure if Dark Confidant is the best support creature to Monastery Mentor and this needs more testing.

The 4-1 post-board result is encouraging.

Mox Opal
I have tried running different numbers of this very powerful card. With 2-3, we need to also include at least 2 artifact land, but I think the first copy provides the most value for the least risk. This card and the one copy of Preordain are the flex slots in the list and I will be happy to hear any opinions on this.

Viability
In my limited testing I did not feel as though there was a matchup I was heavily unfavored in (other than Eldrazi pre-board; post-board I believe we are favored). Even against Miracles with Counterbalance+Top, I think that with Tendrils of Agony mainboard we are able to win this matchup much of the time. Monastery Mentor gives us a very high game 2 win % (obviously worse if opponents know about it), and sideboarding for game 3 is something I am still trying to figure out; whether or not to board back into the storm plan or to stay with Monastery Mentor.

[mistercakes]

MTGO Leagues Report

I am trying a new build of Doomsday that goes all in on a transformative sideboard (see below) and decided to cut red, opting instead to use Lim-Dul's Vault over Burning Wish. I am still trying out various numbers of Mox Opal. I took the deck through a League with a 4-1 result, where my 1 loss may have been due to a misplay.

Round 1 - Miracles

Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Doomsday
Ponder
Ponder
Preordain
Gitaxian Probe
Underground Sea
Flooded Strand

This hand is great! A single Dark Ritual away from a turn 2 win with 2 extra cantrips. My opponent mulligans to 6 and leads with Island and Top. I draw Tendrils of Agony for my turn, which means that I cannot use the standard 2 cantrip pile. I fetch an Island and preordain, drawing a Brainstorm leaving a Top on top. I Brainstorm into an LED, a Dark Ritual, and a second copy of Doomsday and decide to not go for the win this turn, but look for discard, especially since I have Tendrils of Agony on top of my deck. My opponent untaps and plays Counterbalance. We draw-go for few turns and I sculpt my hand. My opponent plays a Mentor and on turn 8 I have two Tops in play and my hand is Tendrils of Agony, Dark Ritual, LED, Probe, Probe, Doomsday, and Ponder. I lead with a Probe and my opponent responds by looking with Top, then tapping it. In response I play a Dark Ritual, Top into a Brainstorm, Brainstorm into a Dark Ritual. I play out all my spells where most are countered and I end with a Tendrils for 22.

Win - Turn 8 Natural Tendrils (with turn 2 combo available without protection)
TRANSFORM
-4 Doomsday
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ideas Unbound
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Dark Ritual
-1 Tendrils of Agony
+4 Monastery Mentor
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Meddling Mage
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - I mulligan a no-land hand into:
Meddling Mage
Abrupt Decay
Brainstorm
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Tundra

Hooray, Brainstorm fixes everything! My opponent leads with Tundra into Top. I draw a Scrubland and Duress away a Counterbalance, leaving a Ponder, Terminus, Mentor, and Snapcaster in hand. I play a Meddling Mage naming Monastery Mentor. My opponent misses on a Ponder. I Brainstorm into a Top and 2 Decays. My Meddling Mage is hit by Terminus and my opponent starts making land drops. I draw Mentor and my Cabal Therapy is met by a Force of Will. I Decay my opponent's Mentor and draw a Meddling Mage. I cast it, naming Force of Will, play a Mentor, make 3 tokens and pass. I attack for the win next turn through a Snapcaster.

Win - Turn 8 Monastery Mentor/Meddling Mage beats

1-0 (2-0)


Round 2 - UR Delver

Game 1 - I win the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Lim-Dul's Vault
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flooded Strand

This hand is great. I fetch an Island and Ponder into a Flooded Strand, leaving Brainstorm and Duress on top. My opponent plays Probe, Island, Delver. I draw Duress and pass. I cast Lim-Dul's Vault end of turn, pay 4 life, and find Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and Land... wow. I cast duress, discard a Force of Will, leaving Force of Will, Price of Progress, Forked Bolt, and 2 lands in hand. Sadly, due to the life loss from Lim-Dul's Vault, I am 1 mana short of winning due to the Price of Progress preventing me from casting Probe for free (cannot fetch a swamp with my Flooded Strand). My opponent does not find a blue card and I win with 1 life to spare with the standard cantrip + LED pile.

Win - Turn 4 Doomsday
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Monastery Mentor
Dark Confidant
Gitaxian Probe
Duress
Lotus Petal
Cavern of Souls
Island

Great. My opponent leads with Volcanic Island into Delver. I draw a Preordain, cast it, and draw a Polluted Delta. My opponent flips Delver with Brainstorm and passes. I play Lotus Petal, Cavern of Souls (Human), Monastery Mentor, Probe, Probe, and laugh at my opponent's hand of:
Force of Will
Force of Will
Flusterstorm
Daze
Daze
Brainstorm
I Brainstorm and Therapy my opponent, leading to a concession.

Win - Turn 4 Mentor (cast on turn 2)

2-0 (4-0)


Round 3 - Storm

Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Ideas Unbound
Ponder
Dark Ritual
Mox Opal
Polluted Delta
Scrubland

Probably the worst keepable 7 card hand. My opponent fetches an Underground Sea and Ponders. I regret keeping this hand. I draw an LED and Ponder, keeping a Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal, and Land. My opponent cantrips. I play a Cabal Therapy on Infernal Tutor and miss, seeing Dark Ritual x2, Cabal Ritual, LED, and Cabal Therapy. I play out my artifact mana and pass. My opponent mirrors me, and I cast Lim-Dul's Vault at the end of their turn, finding a Doomsday. I punt by not putting 2 Tops in the pile to generate extra storm (I have 5 extra mana) and lose by 1 storm.

Loss - Turn 3 Doomsday (Ideas Unbound) PUNT
-1 Doomsday
-1 Preordain
-2 Ponder
+2 Dark Confidant
+2 Meddling Mage

I am unsure about this plan, but I figure that Dark Confidant will be good in a discard-heavy matchup, and Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is likely unanswerable post-board.

Game 2 - On the play:
Meddling Mage
Meddling Mage
Doomsday
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top
Flooded Strand

This hand is a great 5-card hand, so I keep. I play a Top and pass. My opponent probes and cantrips. I draw Dark Ritual and win.

Win - Turn 2 Doomsday (Top + LED)
I sideboard back to my mainboard configuration since I expect my opponent may bring in Abrupt Decays for Meddling Mage.


Game 3 - On the draw:
Doomsday
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony
Cabal Therapy
Flooded Strand

I try to mulligan, but I can't. My opponent mulligans, cantrips, and passes. I draw a Lim-Dul's Vault, cast Cabal Therapy on Dark Ritual, hit one, and leave my oppoent with Infernal tutor, Dark Petition, Duress, and Flooded Strand. My opponent Duresses a Doomsday. I draw Top, play it and pass. My opponent cantrips and passes. I tap Top to draw Brainstorm and Flooded Strand and pass with mana open to protect my 3 Dark Rituals from a Cabal Therapy. My opponent casts Tendrils of Agony for 14, leaving me at 5 and them at 31; this was correct as I was about to win with a natural Tendrils next turn and Doomsday usually has difficulty storming far past 10. I brainstorm, putting two Tops into play and sculpt my hand. A few turns later, I cast Duress, 3 Dark Rituals, Doomsday (4x Dark Ritual + Doomsday), Probe, cycle my Tops 6 times, and cast Tendrils for 30.

Win - Turn 7 Natural Tendrils.

3-0 (6-1)


Round 4 - Miracles

Game 1 - I lose the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Preordain
Gitaxian Probe
Mox Opal
Lotus Petal

I have two chances to draw either a land or a Petal/LED (22 outs), so I keep. My opponent leads with Flooded Strand and passes. I draw a Top and Probe (Force, Snapcaster, Terminus, Venser, 2x Scalding Tarn) into a Polluted Delta, fetching a Sea, play Top, Petal, and Mox Opal. My opponent plays a land and passes. I draw a Doomsday and my attempt to Brainstorm is hit by Pyroblast. I Brainstorm again, find Ponder and Lim-Dul's Vault, but no land. My opponent plays a land and passes. I attempt to cast Lim-Dul's Vault on my upkeep but am met by a Snapcaster on Pyroblast (I should have remembered this from Probe). My opponent finds a Counterbalance. I cantrip and pass. My opponent plays a Mentor, attacks, and passes. I find my Tendrils and lead with Duress, taking a Swords to Plowshares (if I find a 0-1 CMC spell in my top 4 cards I win). I Brainstorm into Island, Doomsday, Doomsday. I spin Top, miss, and am forced to Tendrils my opponent to 4. I lose soon thereafter.

Lose - Turn 8; I think I punted with terrible sequencing on cantrips.

TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 2: I draw my opening 7:
Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Sensei's Divining Top
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Tropical Island

I open with Sea into Duress, which is met by Force of Will. I cast Therapy off of Petal, naming Top and hit, seeing Counterbalance, Flusterstorm, Island, and Scalding Tarn. My opponent plays an Island and passes. I draw a Cavern and play Therapy. My opponent responds with a Brainstorm (boooo). I miss, seeing a Venser and a Jace. I play Top. My opponent plays Counterbalance. I play a Tundra and pass. My opponent plays a land and passes. I find a Mentor, tap Top, play Cavern, Mentor, and Top (Force of Willed). My opponent topdecks an Izzet Staticaster. I Brainstorm into Probe, and hold up Brainstorm for the Staticaster. My opponent reveals Rest in Peace on top, so I flashback both Cabal Therapies and attack for 6. I Brainstorm in response to the Staticaster activation and my opponent scoops.

Win - Turn 6 Mentor


Game 3 - On the draw:
Monastery Mentor
Dark Confidant
Cabal Therapy
Brainstorm
Flooded Strand
Flooded Strand
Island

My opponent mulligans and plays Island, Top. I respond with Sea into Therapy, naming Counterbalance. I miss and see Brainstorm, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, and Venser. My opponent brainstorms into a second island. My Dark Confidant is Forced (Venser). My opponent finds a Counterbalance. I play a Mentor and make 2 tokens. I Ponder into Top, flashback a Therapy on Red Blast (hit), and my Meddling Mage is hit by Mindbreak Trap. A better play would have been to flashback Therapy (I miss out on 4 damage this way), and play Meddling Mage on Terminus. My opponent miracles Terminus in response to the Top. I topdeck Cavern and Mentor, but am met by a Snapcaster Mage flashing back Mindbreak Trap and I lose soon after.

Loss - Not sure if I punted this game

3-1 (7-3)


Round 5 - Aggro Loam

Game 1 - I win the die roll and draw my opening 7:
Doomsday
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea

This hand is great and I lead with Sea into Top and pass. My opponent plays Barren Moor and passes. I draw a Ponder, Brainstorm into land, Probe (to check for Chalice) into Mox Opal, see Sylvan Library, Punishing Fire, Knight of the Reliquary, and lands. My opponent plays Sylvan Library. I find a Dark Ritual and win (Mox Opal was needed).

Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (2 Cantrip Pile)
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Monastery Mentor
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Abrupt Decay
Duress
Lotus Petal
Scrubland

This is fine. My opponent leads with a Bojuka Bog. I draw Dark Confidant and play it off of a Lotus Petal. My opponent plays a Chalice on 1. I miss on lands and pass. My opponent plays a Dark Confidant. I draw a land and Petal, Decay the Confidant, and attack. Next turn I cast Mentor, Petal, and cast Brainstorm into Chalice. My opponent gets a Knight off of Green Sun's. I cast many spells into Chalice and win.

Win - Turn 6 Mentor/Dark Confidant Beats

Win Cons
-Won with Doomsday 3 times (1x Turn 2, 1x Turn 3, 1x Turn 4) (1x Turn 3 punt)
-Natural Tendrils 2 time (1x Turn 7, 1x Turn 8)
-Monastery Mentor beats 4 time (cast on turn 2, 2x turn 4, turn 7)

TLDR
4-1 (9-3) in MTGO Daily Event
2-0 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. UR Delver
2-1 vs. ANT
1-2 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Aggro Loam

Thanks for reading and I'll be interested in any feedback!

Here's the deck:

Mainboard

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Preordain

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Doomsday
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Ideas Unbound

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Opal

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Dark Confidant
2x Meddling Mage
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Abrupt Decay



Notes
Lim-Dul's Vault vs Burning Wish
Not having Burning Wish can often lead to having 1 less storm in the pile (which led to my miscount in game 1 of round 3), which can be mitigated by using two Tops to generate storm.

Also, having a Tendrils of Agony in the deck also allows us to fight against Counterbalance relatively well, using Top to make land drops and naturally cast 10 spells. I believe this configuration has the best pre-board game of any storm deck against a resolved lock-piece.

Lim-Dul's Vault overperformed and I am unsure if I was especially lucky with the results or if finding Dark Ritual + Doomsday is a relatively common outcome. This allows us to play only 4 Dark Rituals without having to run Rain of Filth.

Monastery Mentor/Cavern of Souls/Dark Confidant
Previously I would board in 4 Monastery Mentor and have a hybrid post-board plan. I have found that this leads to many games drawing half of each strategy, so I decided to increase the size of the transformative sideboard which required the aforementioned switching from Burning Wish to Lim-Dul's Vault. Cavern of Souls outperformed my expectations (see round 2 game 2) and allowed me to ignore many hands stacked with countermagic. I am unsure if Dark Confidant is the best support creature to Monastery Mentor and this needs more testing.

The 4-1 post-board result is encouraging.

Mox Opal
I have tried running different numbers of this very powerful card. With 2-3, we need to also include at least 2 artifact land, but I think the first copy provides the most value for the least risk. This card and the one copy of Preordain are the flex slots in the list and I will be happy to hear any opinions on this.

Viability
In my limited testing I did not feel as though there was a matchup I was heavily unfavored in (other than Eldrazi pre-board; post-board I believe we are favored). Even against Miracles with Counterbalance+Top, I think that with Tendrils of Agony mainboard we are able to win this matchup much of the time. Monastery Mentor gives us a very high game 2 win % (obviously worse if opponents know about it), and sideboarding for game 3 is something I am still trying to figure out; whether or not to board back into the storm plan or to stay with Monastery Mentor.

good ideas. have you been on stormboards? i tried a list with a transformative sb but i dont think i had cut the red. considered it but didn't. glad to see you're doing well with it. keep it up and keep posting results! :)

[Jakobian1010]

MTGO Leagues Report

Mainboard

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Preordain

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Doomsday
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Ideas Unbound

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Opal

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Dark Confidant
2x Meddling Mage
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Abrupt Decay



Notes
Lim-Dul's Vault vs Burning Wish
Not having Burning Wish can often lead to having 1 less storm in the pile (which led to my miscount in game 1 of round 3), which can be mitigated by using two Tops to generate storm.

Also, having a Tendrils of Agony in the deck also allows us to fight against Counterbalance relatively well, using Top to make land drops and naturally cast 10 spells. I believe this configuration has the best pre-board game of any storm deck against a resolved lock-piece.

Lim-Dul's Vault overperformed and I am unsure if I was especially lucky with the results or if finding Dark Ritual + Doomsday is a relatively common outcome. This allows us to play only 4 Dark Rituals without having to run Rain of Filth.

Monastery Mentor/Cavern of Souls/Dark Confidant
Previously I would board in 4 Monastery Mentor and have a hybrid post-board plan. I have found that this leads to many games drawing half of each strategy, so I decided to increase the size of the transformative sideboard which required the aforementioned switching from Burning Wish to Lim-Dul's Vault. Cavern of Souls outperformed my expectations (see round 2 game 2) and allowed me to ignore many hands stacked with countermagic. I am unsure if Dark Confidant is the best support creature to Monastery Mentor and this needs more testing.

The 4-1 post-board result is encouraging.

Mox Opal
I have tried running different numbers of this very powerful card. With 2-3, we need to also include at least 2 artifact land, but I think the first copy provides the most value for the least risk. This card and the one copy of Preordain are the flex slots in the list and I will be happy to hear any opinions on this.

Viability
In my limited testing I did not feel as though there was a matchup I was heavily unfavored in (other than Eldrazi pre-board; post-board I believe we are favored). Even against Miracles with Counterbalance+Top, I think that with Tendrils of Agony mainboard we are able to win this matchup much of the time. Monastery Mentor gives us a very high game 2 win % (obviously worse if opponents know about it), and sideboarding for game 3 is something I am still trying to figure out; whether or not to board back into the storm plan or to stay with Monastery Mentor.


You forgot to list tendrils in the main. :)

[DireNTropy]

You forgot to list tendrils in the main. :)

Thanks! Fixed.

[nevilshute]

Interesting approach and I applaud you for trying it out. I hope you keep at it... We need way more data than a single league to really make any kind of assessment.

[Shaman]

Very interesting build.
I am a Doomsday enthusiast so I am glad to see innovation about this archetype.

My question: against Storm, G2, why did not you go for T1 Meddling Mage?

For sideboarding, my gut feeling is you can go up with Meddling Mages (completely unexpected) and remove Confidants. I would add some removal too like a couple of Echoing Truths.

I would like to explore a build with a couple of artifact lands and one more Mox Opal.

Congrats

[DireNTropy]

Interesting approach and I applaud you for trying it out. I hope you keep at it... We need way more data than a single league to really make any kind of assessment.

I have tried some flavor of the transformative sideboard and various counts of Mox Opals in this deck to reasonable success in the past. This is the first iteration where I cut Burning Wish and the wishboard. I definitely agree that we need more data (I'm hoping that I will get some help with this :smile:) before we come to any meaningful conclusions.

Lim-Dul's Vault is great in pre-board games where we do not mind trading card disadvantage for speed (post-board storm games punish card disadvantage, and Lim-Dul's Vault is sub-par post-board). I think the 4x Doomsday/2x Lim-Dul's Vault is faster than 3x Doomsday/3-4x Burning Wish and allows us to find Doomsday on turn 2 with basic lands.



Very interesting build.
I am a Doomsday enthusiast so I am glad to see innovation about this archetype.

My question: against Storm, G2, why did not you go for T1 Meddling Mage?

For sideboarding, my gut feeling is you can go up with Meddling Mages (completely unexpected) and remove Confidants. I would add some removal too like a couple of Echoing Truths.

I would like to explore a build with a couple of artifact lands and one more Mox Opal.

Congrats

Thanks!

I knew I was 1 Dark Ritual away from winning on turn 2 (turns out I only have a ~20% chance to hit) and playing a turn 1 Top is almost automatic. However, I do realize that Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony likely wins the game against a Storm opponent that does not expect permanent-based hate (I would like a confirmation on this assumption), so in hindsight the Meddling Mage play is better since it protects against a turn 1 win from my opponent.

I have tried 2-3 Mox Opal with 2-3 Seat of the Synod and I have found that the deck's turn 1-2 potential increases but the consistency drops (opening hands with 2 Mox Opal and no metalcraft, null rod becomes unbeatable, wasteland is worse, etc). I have been happy with 1x Mox Opal and the traditional 8x Fetch/2x basics manabase.

[Dr_D]

Seems like an interesting new take on the list. If I were to run something like this I think I'd do some things differently, namely the manabase. I think 15 lands is too little in any DDFT list. One of the strengths of the deck is the fact that you can just make land drops and eventually hard cast Doomsday. I don't think the preordain in the main is necessary and I would replace with an Underground sea. I'm also not sure about the chrome mox, if it works for you that's great, and you obviously have more experience with it than me, but I'd probably replace it with a 17th land (Karakas perhaps). I also think it could be advantageous to run a basic plains in the board so you can have a no wastable white source to cast your mentors after transforming. If you did that, you wouldn't need as many white sources in the main, and honestly 2 white sources main that only function as a wastable island and swamp doesn't seem fantastic.

One thing that would be interesting to explore would be a stoneforge package in the sideboard like the TinFins lists have been doing lately. Apparently they've been having a lot of success with it.

Overall, I think this is a great idea. I've been looking for a way to cut red for a while and have considered LDV, but never actually tested anything. If I find some time I'll try out a list similar to yours (more lands like I stated above, but that'd just because I never go less than 16 in my DDFT lists) and see how it runs. I'd suggest posting it on the storm boards as well, as that's where most of the DDFT discussion happens.

Edit: Green might also not be necessary, but I'll never downplay the effectiveness of decay.

[DireNTropy]

One more small data point:

3-1 (7-4) at local weekly

1-2 vs. Maverick
2-1 vs. Lands
2-1 vs. Lands
2-0 vs. Death and Taxes

I know Lands is a very favorable matchup (I lost one game before my turn 2!), but I did fight through Sphere of Resistance and Surgical Extraction.

Dark Confidants were very strong. Transformation is bad against lands. My storm wins were relatively fast (1x Turn 2 stopped by Thalia, 3x Turn 3, 1x Turn 4).

[nevilshute]

Just, ever so slowly, working my way towards giving the non-red build a try. Quick question, how are you working around the extra storm that the wish provides?

I can imagine situations where you'd normally cast both a probe and then wish as the last card for storm 9 to get tendrils. Also have you considered running the lab man as a win con to get around main deck stuff like teeg etc / too high life total?

[DireNTropy]

Just, ever so slowly, working my way towards giving the non-red build a try. Quick question, how are you working around the extra storm that the wish provides?

I can imagine situations where you'd normally cast both a probe and then wish as the last card for storm 9 to get tendrils. Also have you considered running the lab man as a win con to get around main deck stuff like teeg etc / too high life total?

Generating Extra Storm
If you need extra storm (with a Top in play) you can use the standard pile of:
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Sensei's Divining Top
Tendrils of Agony

Where this will generate +1 storm for every extra mana (flip Tops until 5 mana remains and then put Tendrils on top and cast). In one game I used this method to generate 15 storm. Of course there are many other piles capable of generating extra storm if needed; I have not run into the issue of not being able to generate enough storm.

Laboratory Maniac
I have been thinking about adding a Hurkyl's Recall in the main to add to a Doomsday pile to fight Chalice. Is there a good Laboratory Maniac pile that gets around Chalice? Passing the turn twice seems too slow.
I don't think there are enough maindeck Gaddock Teegs to worry about including a maindeck answer. Abrupt Decay answers this problem post-board.

Thoughtseize
Unrelated, I have been testing out the combination of 2 Thoughtseize/1 Duress/4 Cabal Therapy and have been happy with the results.

Extra Doomsday Piles
Finally, there are two different piles possible with a Tendrils of Agony in the mainboard
Doomsday + Brainstorm +1 card in hand + BBBBU:
Ideas Unbound
LED
Probe
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Doomsday + Cantrip + Cantrip + Cantrip Mana + BBB:
LED
Ideas Unbound
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Previously a double cantrip hand required an extra red mana to cast Burning Wish.

[DireNTropy]

MTGO Leagues Report #2/3
Likely the last post containing game details for a while (I would appreciate feedback on technical play if possible!)

TLDR
More data points!
7-3 (15-9) in 2 MTGO Leagues

2-0 vs. Eldrazi
1-2 vs. Miracles (punt)
2-1 vs. Jund
2-0 vs. Grixis Delver
0-2 vs. Eldrazi

2-0 vs. Miracles
0-2 vs. BR Reanimator
2-0 vs. Show and Tell
2-1 vs. BUG Depths
2-1 vs. UR Delver


Adding in the first MTGO League and the weekly local:
14-5 (31-16)


Changes to the deck for League #2:
-2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize

Changes to the deck for League #3:
-1 Preordain
+1 Echoing Truth


Round 1 - Eldrazi

Game 1 - On the play:
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Lotus Petal
Flooded Strand
Island

Start with an Island into a Top; Opponent mulligans to 6 and begins with Temple into Eldrazi Mimic. I fetch a Tundra to pretend to be Miracles and Ponder, shuffling to draw a Dark Ritual. My opponent plays a 4/4 Endless One. I find a Doomsday and win.

Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (Top + Cantrip)
TRANSFORM
-4 Doomsday
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ideas Unbound
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Dark Ritual
-1 Tendrils of Agony
+4 Monastery Mentor
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Meddling Mage
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - on the draw:
Meddling Mage
Cabal Therapy
Gitaxian Probe
Lotus Petal
Cavern of Souls
Underground Sea
Polluted Delta

I draw a Top and my opponent leads with Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst. I fetch an Island and pay 1 mana to probe seeing: Thorn, Matter Reshaper, Endless One, Thought-Knot Seer, and Mishra's Factory. My opponent plays another thorn and I play a Meddling mage naming Endless One. My opponent plays a Matter reshaper and I pay 3 mana to Ponder, leaving a Monastery Mentor on top. My opponent play a chalice on zero. I play Mentor and cast 3 mana Dark Rituals, Cabal Therapies, and Cantrips.

Win - Turn 4 Monastery Mentor/Meddling Mage beats

1-0 (2-0)


Round 2 - Miracles

Game 1 - On the draw:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy
Flooded Strand
Swamp

My opponent mulligans and leads with an Arid Mesa. I lead with a Swamp and Top. My opponent Brainstorms. I pass and cast Lim-Dul's Vault in response to a Counterbalance, leaving a Doomsday on top. I attempt to win, but my Cabal Therapy is countered by a Top on top. I immediately shift gears into finding my Tendrils. Many turns of draw-go later, my opponent activates Jace's +2 and I accidentally pass priority with my Tendrils on top. My hand at this point has 7 one/zero mana spells, with 7 lands and a Top in play, and my opponent at 16 life. I asked my opponent later about his hand and I believe I had a definite win here.

Lose - Punt
TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 2 - On the play:
Monastery Mentor
Brainstorm
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta

I lead with a Sea into Thoughtseize and see:
Force of Will
Counterbalance
Pyroblast
Pyroblast
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Island

I take the Top. My opponent plays Island and passes. I brainstorm and pass. My opponent Ponders into a Mountain. I therapy away a Force of Will and use Petal to cast Dark Confidant. I draw a Cavern, play Mentor, and make 2 tokens. My opponent concedes.

Win - Turn 5 Mentor
TRANSFORM BACK TO STORM (see above)


Game 2 - On the draw:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Flooded Strand

My opponent begins with Island into Top. We both Ponder and pass. I brainstorm into more mana and Ideas Unbound. I cast Ideas Unbound into Doomsday and Abrupt Decay and my opponent flashes in Containment Priest (??). I decay a Counterbalance and am still looking for a cantrip. A few turns later I find a Top. My Cabal Therapy is Forced, my Doomsday is hit by Counterspell and Surgical Extraction. I lose, partially due to my impatience.

Loss

1-1 (3-2) Punt in game 1 due to misclick


Round 3 - Jund

Game 1 - On the draw:
Doomsday
Ponder
Lotus Petal
Mox Opal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand

My opponent leads with Badlands into Deathrite. I Ponder into Thoughtseize. My opponent plays a Bloodstained Mire and I win on turn 2.

Win - Turn 2 Doomsday (Cantrip + LED)
-1 Duress
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Preordain
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - On the play:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Lim-Dul's Vault
Polluted Delta
Swamp

My opponent starts with Badlands into Deathrite and I Probe into Therapy, taking Null Rod. My opponent Thoughtseizes away my LED. I cantrip for a few turns while my opponent plays a Dark Confidant and activates Deathrite. I attempt to combo on the last turn and lose to Red Elemental Blast + Pyroblast.

Loss
TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 3 - On the play:
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Meddling Mage
Flooded Strand
Tundra
Swamp

I begin with Probe and Ponder/shuffle into a second Meddling Mage (Opponent has Wasteland, Goyf, Liliana, Pyroblast, Bloodbraid, Grove, Badlands). We both draw and play a Dark Confidant. I play a Meddling Mage naming Liliana. My opponent responds with a Goyf. I find a Monastery Mentor, make 3 tokens and pass. My opponent plays a Bloodbraid Elf. Next turn I cast many spells for the win.

Win - Turn 5 Monastery Mentor/Meddling Mage/Dark Confidant

2-1 (5-3)


Round 4 - Grixis Delver

Game 1 - On the draw:
Ponder
Ponder
Preordain
Sensei's Divining Top
Mox Opal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta

My opponent plays a Sea and passes. I draw/play a probe and see Force, Ponder, Stifle, and 3 lands. I draw a Tropical Island, play out Top and all my artifacts, and Preordain into Sea. My opponent Ponders, plays a second Sea and Deathrite. I cantrip and Duress a Stifle. My opponent cantrips. I Therapy a Force of Will and see Fire/Ice, which will disrupt my combo (tap Top in response to Doomsday). I Therapy away Fire/Ice and win. Starting with Top in hand for the combo gets around Fire/Ice as they will never have priority in time to tap the Top.

Win - Turn 5 Doomsday (Top + LED); Beat Force, Stifle, Fire/Ice

TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 2: On the draw:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Ponder
Sensei's Divining Top
Meddling Mage
Abrupt Decay
Polluted Delta

My opponent plays a Volcanic Island and passes. I draw Ponder, play Delta, and pass, fearing Stifle. My opponent Brainstorms and I fetch an island and Brainstorm in response. My opponent misses a 2nd land drop. I play Top and Ponder into Cavern. My opponent Ponders into land. I Probe and play Meddling Mage naming Cabal Therapy. I decay a Deathrite Shaman and play a second Top. I trade my Meddling Mage for a Snapcaster, play Mentor, Petal, and pass. My opponent plays two Delvers. I play Top and Meddling Mage, naming Young Pyromancer. A Deathrite Shaman joins two flipped Delvers. My opponent Stifles my Top activation many times but eventually loses to Monastery Mentor.

Win - Turn 8 Mentor

3-1 (7-3)


Round 5 - Eldrazi

Game 1 - On the Draw:
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Lim-Dul's Vault
Ideas Unbound
Doomsday
Dark Ritual
Flooded Strand

Without the Ideas Unbound, this is a Petal/LED away from a Turn 1 win. My opponent begins with Ancient Tomb into Chalice of the Void on 1. I scoop after playing a Flooded Strand into Tundra. I decide I need a maindeck answer to Chalice.

Loss - Turn 1 Chalice of the Void
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Ponder
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea
Tropical Island

I Thoughtseize away a Mind Stone, leaving my opponent with Reality Smasher and lands. My opponent plays an Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Mimic. I Therapy away a Reality Smasher and play Top. My opponent plays a 3/3 Endless One. I Brainstorm into Dark Confidant. I cannot find a Monastery Mentor and lose to Thought-Knot Seer.

Loss

3-2 (7-5)


League #3

Round 6 - Miracles

Game 1 - On the play:
Sensei's Divining Top
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flooded Strand
Tropical Island
Tundra
Swamp

Start with an Island into a Top. My opponent starts with Volcanic into Ponder. I Probe and see Force, Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Ponder, Snapcaster Mage, Swords, and Volcanic Island. I prepare to find my Tendrils of Agony, and start to play draw-go, making land drops. I am able to resolve a second Top and respond to fetchlands with Brainstorms (I am guaranteed only three 1-CMC spells on my combo turn). My opponent begins attacking with a Snapcaster and Mentor. I find my Tendrils of Agony and my opponent plays a Jace. Due to Swords to Plowshares I need 11 storm to guarantee the win. On turn 8 I untap with Tendrils, 5 spells, and 2 Tops on board. I am able to cast Tendrils for 26 through 2 Forces and a Counterbalance on 0.

Win - Turn 8 Natural Storm
TRANSFORM
-4 Doomsday
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ideas Unbound
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-2 Dark Ritual
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Tendrils of Agony
+4 Monastery Mentor
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Meddling Mage
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - on the draw:
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Dark Confidant
Island

My opponent plays a Tundra and passes. I probe to see Force, Force, Brainstorm, Jace, Terminus, Staticaster. I draw a Therapy and Ponder into Flooded Strand. My opponent Brainstorms and my Meddling Mage is hit by Force pitching Staticaster. My opponent passes and I Brainstorm and play Confidant. My opponent flashes in Clique in response to Thoughtseize, taking a Confidant and Flusterstorming the Thoughtseize. I Therapy away Jace, leaving my opponent with Force of Will. I find a Mentor, Therapy away the Force, play Mentor, and make 2 tokens. My opponent concedes.

Win - Turn 6 Monastery Mentor/Confidant beats

4-2 (9-5)


Round 7 - BR Reanimator

Game 1 - On the play I mulligan to:
Ponder
Dark Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Tendrils of Agony
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea

My opponent mulligans to 5 and I play Delta and pass. My opponent plays Delta, Petal, Unmask (taking Ponder) and passes. My opponent reanimates Griselbrand on turn 2 (after a mulligan to 5 and an Unmask!)

Loss - Turn 2 Griselbrand
NO SIDEBOARD


Game 2 - On the play I mulligan twice to:
Thoughtseize
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea

I lead with a Sea and Thoughtseize away an Entomb. My opponent topdecks entomb and casts a turn 1 Griselbrand.

Loss - Turn 1 Griselbrand

4-3 (9-7)


Round 8 - Show and Tell

Game 1 - On the draw:
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Flooded Strand
Tropical Island

My opponent leads with Island, Probe, and Ponder. I draw LED, fetch a Sea, and Duress a Brainstorm, leaving Show and Tell, Force of Will, 2 fetches, and Ancient Tomb. My opponent plays a land and passes. I Ponder into Doomsday and attempt to win on turn 2 but my Dark Ritual is hit by a topdecked Spell Pierce. We cantrip for a few turns and I Therapy away Force, leaving Intuition and Show and Tell. I am forced to fetch away my Top to Thoughtseize the Intuition. I win on turn 5 after checking for topdecked countermagic with Probe.

Win - Turn 5 Doomsday (Top + LED) through Force, Intuition, and Spell Pierce
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Mox Opal
+2 Meddling Mage


Game 2 - On the draw I mulligan to:
Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Doomsday
Duress
Scrubland

My opponent leads with Volcanic into Grafdigger's Cage (a common sideboard mistake against Doomsday). I draw a Flooded Strand and Duress away a Show and Tell, leaving Force, Red Elemental Blast, Delta, and City of Traitors. My opponent Brainstorms and I play a Top. We trade cantrips and Top activations, and I Therapy away a Force of Will, seeing Griselbrand, Flusterstorm, and Red Elemental Blast. I Therapy away a Flusterstorm and my Probe is hit by Red Elemental Blast. I check my opponent's hand with Probe and win.

Win - Turn 5 Doomsday (Top + LED) through Show and Tell, Force, Flusterstorm, and Red Elemental Blast
TRANSFORM (see above)

5-3 (11-7)


Round 9 - BUG Depths

Game 1 - On the play:
Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea
Swamp

I play land and pass. My opponent plays Urborg and passes; I immediately think Eldrazi and think about Brainstorming at end of turn, but decide not to. I draw a Brainstorm and Brainstorm into Dark Ritual and Doomsday. I draw an LED and win on turn 3.

Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (Cantrip + LED)
NO SIDEBOARD


Game 2: On the draw:
Gitaxian Probe
Doomsday
Ideas Unbound
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea

Except for the Ideas Unbound in hand, this is a turn 1 win. My opponent takes Doomsday with Inquisition of Kozilek. I Ponder into Cabal Therapy and my Probe is taken by Thoughtseize after my opponent misses a land drop. My opponent plays a Thespian Stage and I draw a Brainstorm. I ponder into a Top and my opponent uses Expedition Map to find Dark Depths. I Brainstorm into Echoing Truths and Lim-Dul's Vault and bounce the Marit Lage token, paying for Flusterstorm with Dark Ritual. My opponent reassembles the combo with Sylvan Scrying and Crop Rotation and my attempt to win is hit by an unknown Flusterstorm.

Loss


Game 3: On the play:
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea

I fetch an Island and play Top and my opponent leads with Thespian Stage (telling me they misread a card and did not mean to keep this hand). I Ponder into Lim-Dul's Vault. My opponent misses a land drop and I Thoughtseize away a Surgical Extraction. I turn Lim-Dul's Vault into a Doomsday and win.

Win - Turn 4 Doomsday (Top + LED)

6-3 (13-8)


Round 10 - UR Delver

Game 1 - On the Draw:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Thoughtseize
Duress
Doomsday
Echoing Truth
Swamp

My opponent mulligans to 5, casts Probe, and concedes.

Win - Turn 1 concession
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Abrupt Decay
Cavern of Souls

I keep, with 2 chances to find a blue mana source. My opponent starts with Volcanic into Delver. I draw Brainstorm and Probe into Top, and play Top. I miss on land and concede.

Loss

Game 3 - On the play:
Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top
Monastery Mentor
Dark Confidant
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta

I open with Swamp into Top. My opponent begins with Island into Delver. I draw and play Petal (for Daze), Island, and Dark Confidant. My opponent plays Monastery Swiftspear and Grafdigger's Cage. I draw Cavern of Souls and play Mentor, making 2 tokens and Therapying away a Price of Progress, leaving a Daze. I cast Top 4 times for the win.

Win - Turn 4 Mentor

7-3 (15-9)



Win Conditions (15 Total)
-Won with Doomsday 7 times
-1x Turn 2
-2x Turn 3
-1x Turn 4 (Turn 3 goldfish)
-3x Turn 5 (Turn 2,3,3 goldfish)
-Natural Tendrils 1 time (1x Turn 8), punted one on turn 8
-Monastery Mentor beats 6 times

Thanks for reading and I'll be interested in any feedback!



Notes
Tendrils Maindeck vs Miracles
I am beginning to believe we are strongly favored with this configuration. Aside from my terrible punt (misclick allowing Jace to scry Tendrils to the bottom with Top in play), I have been able to win through a Counterbalance every preboard game thanks to Top and maindeck Tendrils. The Monastery Mentor sideboard plan is currently (4-1) against Miracles. My only other post-board loss was after siding back into storm, hoping to win against a diluted deck, which is probably overthinking the matchup.

Speed
This deck combos very consistently on turn 3 (with a decent turn 2 percentage); the only times where I combo'd past this turn were due to having to fight through 3+ pieces of interaction. I think that Lim-Dul's Vault speeds up the deck by finding Doomsday OR Dark Ritual (sometimes both!). Mox Opal also enabled the combo one turn earlier several times in the 19 matches (easy to enable metalcraft through a Doomsday pile).

I don't think that Doomsday should play less than 4 Lotus Petals. Because we only run 4 rituals AND many times we require blue mana during our combo turn, we are often limited by the number of initial mana sources available. Lotus Petal consistently lowers the average combo turn.

Generating Extra Storm
Because the deck does not run Burning Wishes, the usual piles generate 1 less storm. This can be somewhat mitigated by adding a Top to the top of the pile:
Sensei's Divining Top
Ideas Unbound
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony

Maindeck Answer to Chalice/Thalia/Counterbalance
I tried Echoing Truth in the main, and while the opportunity to use it did not come up, is there a better option here (Abrupt Decay)? Or is it better to not even run an answer in the maindeck.

Viability
Assembling a 14-5 (31-16) record (especially given my sometimes subpar technical play) is encouraging. The losses were:
-BR Reanimator: Turn 2 and Turn 1 Griselbrand (turn 1 through a Thoughtseize).
-Miracles: Misclick on very likely win
-Miracles: Sloppy cantripping game 1
-Maverick: My turn 2 win on the draw was answered by turn 2 Thalia on the play
-Eldrazi: Turn 1 Chalice
Eldrazi remains a problem, but I believe Monastery Mentor gives us the best chance of any storm deck postboard.

The Monastery Mentor plan is strong: (14-4) in games overall and a stunning (13-2) in the first transformative game.

New Thread
Is there any interest in a new thread (in New and Developmental Decks) so we can discuss card choices specific to this build in detail?

[Dr_D]

Just, ever so slowly, working my way towards giving the non-red build a try. Quick question, how are you working around the extra storm that the wish provides?

I can imagine situations where you'd normally cast both a probe and then wish as the last card for storm 9 to get tendrils. Also have you considered running the lab man as a win con to get around main deck stuff like teeg etc / too high life total?

You can still make the same standard top pile for BBBUUX, you just have to play it out differently. It plays like this: Untapped underground sea and top in play, LED, DR, and DD in hand.

Dark ritual (1)
Doomsday (2)

Stack Ideas-LED-LED-Probe-Tendrils

LED (3)

Crack LED for blue
Draw with top

Ideas (4)

Top (5)
LED (6)
LED (7)

Crack LEDs for 3 blue and 3 black
Draw with top

Probe for U drawing top (8)
Top (9) BBBU floating

Draw with top

Tendrils (10)

I'm not good at writing these out.

Edit: @DireNTropy I don't think a new thread is necessary, do you have any response to my earlier post about land base, stoneforge, and cutting green? Also not sure if I mentioned it, but I would definitely be playing a lab man in the main in the place of echoing truth/preordain.

[emidln]

Mox Opal also enabled the combo one turn earlier several times in the 19 matches (easy to enable metalcraft through a Doomsday pile).


I would be very surprised to learn that Mox Opal more reliably resulted in turn 2 kills than Rain of Filth (which filters Island into B). It's possible that the lack of Lab Man or Burning Wish makes turn 2 RoF less strong than it otherwise might be (since land, land, dr, led, gp, dd makes an extraneous mana for a kill, RoF or CRit can sub in here; Petal also subs in if you have BB from lands). Maybe because you lack the storm, you need SDT + LED more often to win on turn 2 that you're already enabling Metalcraft in these scenarios?



I don't think that Doomsday should play less than 4 Lotus Petals. Because we only run 4 rituals AND many times we require blue mana during our combo turn, we are often limited by the number of initial mana sources available. Lotus Petal consistently lowers the average combo turn.


This is only part of the story. LDV provides incentive for 4x Petal, because finding non-land sources become a premium due to the way LDV plays. Further, if you don't have Wish available, blue mana becomes more premium due to needing blue to win the game (barring a shit-ton of mana such that you could use SDT into SDT+LED+ToA+2x blank).

The reason you need non-land mana with LDV vs Wish/DP/Infernal Tutor is that you are required to find BBB + draw to win if you can't make a pass the turn pile (which you don't include). Paying UB at end of turn is obviously ideal, but in less than ideal circumstances, you have now eaten both a blue and a black (of which the deck has previous few sources) and need to use an extra draw to enable LED. This is 2 cards (draw + tutor) vs 1 card with wish to enable LED. With LDV and no viable PTT pile, your LEDs are worth much less. Because you have to spend more time with LDV (it is a topdeck tutor), you end up needing additional mana to cantrip and more mana to cast LDV earlier and take advantage of the draw step (to not lose speed vs Wish/Tutor). Because of the stacking mechanic of LDV, you want additional Petals so that desperation piles become more certain (casting LDV in the main phase with 1-2 draws usually looking to abuse Brainstorm, which tends to cost UUBB (LDV + BS+ Cantrip/DR)).

In general, if you are looking to truly abuse Brainstorm, maximizing Lotus Petals is a good idea. A fair number of turn 2 kills result from having Lotus Petal in hand after leading with mainphase Brainstorm. This is true in ANT as well as Doomsday.

The downside to playing Lotus Petals is usually mana inconsistency in some matchups. You must make cuts somewhere, and that tends to be in the land slots (although, look at the 4-5c Wish lists from 2012 for an example opponent: 18-20 lands and 4 Petal to support turbo ETW vs Delver and more frequent turn 2 kills against aggro). This is most obvious in the harder matchups (Delver and when facing down Counterbalance (where the key to winning with an SDT/Tendrils deck is to stick SDT and then make land drops)).



Maindeck Answer to Chalice/Thalia/Counterbalance
I tried Echoing Truth in the main, and while the opportunity to use it did not come up, is there a better option here (Abrupt Decay)? Or is it better to not even run an answer in the maindeck.


Maindeck Abrupt Decay has been reasonable in the matches I've played since last Autumn.

[DireNTropy]

Thanks for the input! I'm still working on a response to Dr_D, which I will post later.




I would be very surprised to learn that Mox Opal more reliably resulted in turn 2 kills than Rain of Filth (which filters Island into B). It's possible that the lack of Lab Man or Burning Wish makes turn 2 RoF less strong than it otherwise might be (since land, land, dr, led, gp, dd makes an extraneous mana for a kill, RoF or CRit can sub in here; Petal also subs in if you have BB from lands). Maybe because you lack the storm, you need SDT + LED more often to win on turn 2 that you're already enabling Metalcraft in these scenarios?

Most of the times Mox Opal merely acts as a fifth Lotus Petal. Very rarely the deck has the powerful Land, Top, Petal/LED, Mox Opal opening.

Extra storm is rarely an issue, it requires 1 extra mana to replace a cantrip with Top in a pile.




This is only part of the story. LDV provides incentive for 4x Petal, because finding non-land sources become a premium due to the way LDV plays. Further, if you don't have Wish available, blue mana becomes more premium due to needing blue to win the game (barring a shit-ton of mana such that you could use SDT into SDT+LED+ToA+2x blank).

The reason you need non-land mana with LDV vs Wish/DP/Infernal Tutor is that you are required to find BBB + draw to win if you can't make a pass the turn pile (which you don't include). Paying UB at end of turn is obviously ideal, but in less than ideal circumstances, you have now eaten both a blue and a black (of which the deck has previous few sources) and need to use an extra draw to enable LED. This is 2 cards (draw + tutor) vs 1 card with wish to enable LED. With LDV and no viable PTT pile, your LEDs are worth much less. Because you have to spend more time with LDV (it is a topdeck tutor), you end up needing additional mana to cantrip and more mana to cast LDV earlier and take advantage of the draw step (to not lose speed vs Wish/Tutor). Because of the stacking mechanic of LDV, you want additional Petals so that desperation piles become more certain (casting LDV in the main phase with 1-2 draws usually looking to abuse Brainstorm, which tends to cost UUBB (LDV + BS+ Cantrip/DR)).

In general, if you are looking to truly abuse Brainstorm, maximizing Lotus Petals is a good idea. A fair number of turn 2 kills result from having Lotus Petal in hand after leading with mainphase Brainstorm. This is true in ANT as well as Doomsday.

The downside to playing Lotus Petals is usually mana inconsistency in some matchups. You must make cuts somewhere, and that tends to be in the land slots (although, look at the 4-5c Wish lists from 2012 for an example opponent: 18-20 lands and 4 Petal to support turbo ETW vs Delver and more frequent turn 2 kills against aggro). This is most obvious in the harder matchups (Delver and when facing down Counterbalance (where the key to winning with an SDT/Tendrils deck is to stick SDT and then make land drops)).

Great analysis! A majority of the Lim-Dul's Vaults cast were at the end of an opponent's turn (less than 1 out of 5 were cast on the mainphase of the combo turn).

Comparing LDV to wish:
-I lost many games with Burning Wish because I was forced to fetch a non-basic to cast Wish, compared to casting LDV off of Island + Swamp.
-I do agree that Wish is faster in the situation where you have LED, LED, Top.
-LDV can find LED, Dark Ritual, Probe, or Top vs. Burning Wish is able to find Time Spiral and Bounce/Board Wipe. Both can find discard, Tendrils, and Doomsday
-LDV can shuffle after a Brainstorm or Top activation.

Lotus Petal Count:
-What I meant from requiring 3-4 initial mana sources were mostly in the cases where we do not find either Dark Ritual or LED/Double Cantrip, in which we case we need to generate BBBU or BUUU (one less U with Probe or resolved Top) from our initial mana sources. Petal accelerates us by a turn in these cases, and turn 3 is very different than turn 4 in legacy.
-We already are the most consistent of all storm decks in hitting land drops in a long game thanks to running 4 Tops (see my games against Miracles where they resolved a fast Counterbalance), even at 15 lands.
-With the Monastery Mentor plan, 4 Petals are almost mandatory, Mentor + Petal is usually game.
-I am writing a more in-depth analysis about the land vs. Lotus Petal count, which I will post soon.

I have to admit that I was never very comfortable with pass the turn piles. I believe that they became worse against Eldrazi (fast clock + difficult to go through the deck in 1 turn through a chalice on 1).




Maindeck Abrupt Decay has been reasonable in the matches I've played since last Autumn.

I will try this instead, thanks! Echoing Truth has the benefit of being cast off of basic lands whereas Abrupt Decay is better against Counterbalance. Also, Echoing Truth can cycle with a Top, although this is rather expensive.

Edit: Added 2 points in Burning Wish vs. Lim-Dul's Vault

[Kathal]

@DireNTropy, interesting build. However, there are some things you could think off:

Flusterstorm MD instead of the Preordain
Lab Man instead of Preordain (ideally with Chromatic Sphere for the Echoing Truth).

Especially the Lab Man piles allows you to play through a Chalice on 1, and is better in a PTT config. Furthermore if it is a Chalice on 0 you can build DR based piles instead of LED (which requires more starting mana though :( ) or just a straight out Lab Man pile.

I will give your build some tries in the next couple of months (I cannot play more sadly) and will report here than.

Greetings,
Kathal

[DireNTropy]

@DireNTropy, interesting build. However, there are some things you could think off:

Flusterstorm MD instead of the Preordain
Lab Man instead of Preordain (ideally with Chromatic Sphere for the Echoing Truth).

Against which threats is Flusterstorm better than discard? I understand that Flusterstorm is very strong against combo, but seems worse against Blue as this prevents you from using LED in the combo turn. I like Spell Pierce better since it will hit Chalice and Counterbalance, but still prefer discard maindeck.


Especially the Lab Man piles allows you to play through a Chalice on 1, and is better in a PTT config. Furthermore if it is a Chalice on 0 you can build DR based piles instead of LED (which requires more starting mana though :( ) or just a straight out Lab Man pile.

From my limited experience with Laboratory Maniac against a Chalice on 1, I recall it will take 4 turns to win (3 with Top). Is this correct? Chalice on zero is somewhat easy to win with Tendrils maindeck as you only require 1 more mana than the piles without Chalice on 0. From my experience, a pass the turn pile is necessary when you are able to cast Doomsday but do not have a draw spell. Then on the next turn you cast Ideas Unbound into LED, Probe, Top, which requires 3 initial mana, then Probe into Lab Maniac and tap Top? If this is a turn 1 Doomsday through Dark Ritual, you will need an Underground Sea as well as a Lotus Petal and this is vulnerable to both removal and Wasteland. I know with Chromatic Sphere you can play around removal, but this requires even more initial mana or another turn.

The question becomes, is it worth running 2 cards that are subpar when drawn (3 mana Cabal Therapy flashback and almost no-utility stored draw for 1) for a somewhat fragile plan? It may be and I may be underestimating the strength of this plan B.


I will give your build some tries in the next couple of months (I cannot play more sadly) and will report here than.

Greetings,
Kathal

Thanks for the input and let me know how it goes!

[dte]

From my limited experience with Laboratory Maniac against a Chalice on 1, I recall it will take 4 turns to win (3 with Top). Is this correct?

Nope, Ideas Unbound cost 2. Against Eldrazi I'm usually happy if OTP I can play DR, DD.
With nothing else in hand than lands, you can make piles that play labman and empty your library next turn if no hate, or in 2 turns in case of CotV @ 1 or thorn.
If you have a petal and a fetch in hand, you put labman into play and empty your library next turn vs CotV @ 1.

Of course you win turns if you have a top or more than a land into play. So it is much faster than you recall :)

[Dr_D]

In case it's of any interest or help, here's what I've been trying out. I haven't played enough to pass proper judgement yet but it seems fine so far.

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe


4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Doomsday
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Laboratory Maniac

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal


4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
2x Island
1x Swamp


Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
2x Serenity
1x Plains


Sideboard is taken directly from what TinFins players have been having success with. If I can get some decent testing in against a multitude of decks I'll let you know how it goes. So far I can say that the Eldrazi matchup feels better with the transformational board.

[DireNTropy]

Edit: @DireNTropy I don't think a new thread is necessary, do you have any response to my earlier post about land base, stoneforge, and cutting green? Also not sure if I mentioned it, but I would definitely be playing a lab man in the main in the place of echoing truth/preordain.

Thanks for the response! I had sent you a PM with a quick response to your comments. The points require some discussion so I'll cover them one at a time, starting with the sideboard

Previous attempts
My first attempt at a transformative sideboard was somewhat successful, but I ran into the problem of drawing halves of two different strategies.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7800-Deck-Fetchland-Tendrils&p=904964&viewfull=1#post904964

I then tried more committed transformative sideboards (12-15 cards) in both Painter-Stone and Tin Fins and found these to be much more effective.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=939146&highlight=#post939146
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=936183&highlight=#post936183

However, both decks have a much larger combo package compared to Doomsday (15-20 cards vs. 12-13) and do not run as many Cantrips and Tops. The reason I decided to switch from Doomsday was because the wishboard limited the size of the transformative sideboard. In my opinion removing the wishboard makes Doomsday the ideal deck for this transformative sideboard, with a full set of Cabal Therapy and Sensei's Divining Tops along with Cantrips and Fast Mana.


General sideboard discussion
Monastery Mentor is the strongest threat, so 4 copies are likely correct. I have found that having a secondary threat considerably increases both the consistency and strains the opponent's answers. I have tried both Dark Confidants/Cavern of Souls and Stoneforge Mystics/Equipment, both of which take another 5-6 slots.

I like having 2 slots for combo matchups having tried:
Flusterstorm
Surgical Extraction
Grafdigger's Cage
Meddling Mage (great with Cavern of Souls and Probe/Discard)

These can also be swapped for cards that are strong in the fair matchups (with an emphasis on Eldrazi and Miracles):
Bitterblossom
Young Pyromancer

This leaves 3 slots for removal (or 5 without the anti-combo cards), which I will discuss in the next section.


Removal Package
Looking at the most common matchups for the transformational sideboard:
-Miracles
-Eldrazi
-BGx Midrange
-Delver
-Stoneblade
-Death and Taxes

We identify some problematic cards:
Counterbalance
Chalice of the Void
Thorn of Amethyst
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Umezawa's Jitte
Stoneforge Mystic

Finally, we can examine the matchups where we want to side out discard for removal but retain the storm plan:
-Lands
-Elves
-Miracles game 3

The problematic cards:
Counterbalance
Chalice of the Void
Thorn of Amethyst
Null Rod
Heritage Druid
Wirewood Symbiote

Abrupt Decay answers all these cards or we can split the removal slots, for a combination of Swords to Plowshares and Serenity/Disenchant, but I this necessarily expands the number of cards required for removal.

Pros to Abrupt Decay
-Best removal against Delver (low threat density, high countermagic)
-Beats Counterbalance
-Flexible (won't draw wrong removal spell), and thus, more compact

Cons
-Requires the green splash, which in turn makes Wasteland worse
-2 mana removal spell can be expensive against taxing effects
-Bad against Thought-Knot Seer and Gurmag Angler

So the main question becomes, is it worth splashing green to reduce the number of slots required for removal? I have tried the Swords to Plowshares/Serenity removal package and personally prefer Abrupt Decay.


Stoneforge Mystic
I have tried the Monastery Mentor/Stoneforge Mystic package to reasonable success in different decks (Tin Fins and Painter's Servant). I personally liked the Stoneforge Mystic package the best in Painter as Stoneforge Mystic is especially strong with countermagic.

My two most common configurations of the two variants (on top of removal + Monastery Mentors) were:
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Dark Confidant
2x Cavern of Souls

The two packages are strong against different types of decks. Stoneforge Mystic is very strong against Eldrazi and Red-based aggro. Dark Confidant + Cavern of Souls provides a strong games against opponents holding countermagic and also is better against discard-based decks. Stoneforge Mystic is a threat by itself where Dark Confidant mostly serves to fuel Monastery Mentor and also find Mentor faster. Dark Confidant also rarely costs more than 1 life per turn with the low mana cost of the deck (average CMC is just under 1.0) and 4x Sensei's Divining Tops

I am still unsure which package is stronger, so I look forward to your feedback!

[Slag]

I've been tinkering around with the U/B vault build, and I've starting running one repeal in the maindeck to give a 6 storm pile in the event that you doomsday with a probe and a LED. The stack goes like so:
-Ideas Unbound
-LED
-Lotus Petal
-Repeal
-Tendrils

You spend your extra blue to bounce your lotus petal, crack LED maintaining priority, then petal and cast your freshly drawn tendrils. The fact that you can use repeal to reset a delver or bounce a few certain hate cards is not terrible, as well.

[the driver]

Love that people are trying new things.

I'm a bit skeptical as to whether good results are sustainable and consistent. From my view this approach puts a heavy importance on winning game 1 since once you reveal the sideboard the "surprise is gone" in a game 3. Decks like miracles and eldrazi can hedge for both. My concern is that without the speed and flexibility of Wish and without maindeck answers to tutor with Doomsday, that your Game 1 will actually be worse.

Furthermore, this eliminates some of the key advantages to even play Doomsday, like pass the turn piles, putting answers into piles (karakas, chain of vapor, slaughter pact, etc), alternate win conditions (Shelldock, Lab Maniac, Wish for Empty/Time Sprial), and Wish for random answers (massacre, discard, etc). Older ANT builds played 16 cantrips, so one fundamental question I have is what makes Doomsday the best candidate for this? especially since in my view your initial maindeck drafts remove key value.

I'll also add that Wish speeds this deck up at least as much as petals if not more, since it plays so well with LED and brainstorm.

Totally open to be proven wrong.

[Dr_D]

Love that people are trying new things.

Furthermore, this eliminates some of the key advantages to even play Doomsday, like pass the turn piles, putting answers into piles (karakas, chain of vapor, slaughter pact, etc), alternate win conditions (Shelldock, Lab Maniac, Wish for Empty/Time Sprial), and Wish for random answers (massacre, discard, etc). Older ANT builds played 16 cantrips, so one fundamental question I have is what makes Doomsday the best candidate for this? especially since in my view your initial maindeck drafts remove key value.
.

This is a very valid point and a reason for including lab man in the main. In my opinion he's too good at winning via PTT and beating various hate or killing when you just can't get enough storm count. You could still play karakas in this build as well if you wanted, although it will definitely be worse since it doesn't actually do anything manawise besides producing colorless.

I can't speak for your experiences with wish, but at my locals I've been playing these past few months, it hasn't seemed worth it to me and I've been looking for a way to cut red while still keeping a virtual 6 copies of Doomsday in the main. Dark Petition wasn't good enough, I'm hoping that LDV will be the answer.

In response to your comment about winning game 1, with the build I suggested, I think it's quite reasonable to just sideboard in some of the package but keep Doomsday and maniac in the main as a way to have both plans available for game 3.

[DireNTropy]

Love that people are trying new things.

I'm a bit skeptical as to whether good results are sustainable and consistent. From my view this approach puts a heavy importance on winning game 1 since once you reveal the sideboard the "surprise is gone" in a game 3. Decks like miracles and eldrazi can hedge for both. My concern is that without the speed and flexibility of Wish and without maindeck answers to tutor with Doomsday, that your Game 1 will actually be worse.

We still retain an advantage as the opponent is usually forced to dilute their deck with answers to two different problems whereas we can decide to sideboard back into storm or remain with the Mentor plan. Of course there will be matchups where a traditional storm sideboard is superior, but I think the transformative sideboard helps in more matches than it hurts in the current meta.



In response to your comment about winning game 1, with the build I suggested, I think it's quite reasonable to just sideboard in some of the package but keep Doomsday and maniac in the main as a way to have both plans available for game 3.

I have found that having two plans with diverging set ups (Mentor encourages aggressive cantripping both to find it and to create tokens, whereas Doomsday values cantrips in hand) leads to mediocre results from both. My experience comes from decks with a less compact combo than Doomsday, which are forced to retain pieces of the combo post-board (this issue is also present in Doomsday builds with Burning Wish). However, I may have been playing this strategy incorrectly.



Furthermore, this eliminates some of the key advantages to even play Doomsday, like pass the turn piles, putting answers into piles (karakas, chain of vapor, slaughter pact, etc), alternate win conditions (Shelldock, Lab Maniac, Wish for Empty/Time Sprial), and Wish for random answers (massacre, discard, etc). Older ANT builds played 16 cantrips, so one fundamental question I have is what makes Doomsday the best candidate for this? especially since in my view your initial maindeck drafts remove key value.

As I mentioned before, I have tried this sideboard in many different shells. Doomsday has some advantages over Painter, Tin Fins, and ANT (some advantages are shared among subsets of decks):
-Usually most, if not all, removal is sided out; Swords to Plowshares are almost always kept post-board against Tin Fins and Painter's Servant.
-4 copies of Top, Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal, and 12-14 Cantrips, the best cards with Monastery Mentor.
-Maindeck is only 2 colors where ANT would turn into a 5 color deck; both decks can cut Abrupt Decay to get rid of green.
-Most compact combo; Doomsday's smallest combo package is 8 cards (4x Doomsday, 2x Tutor, 1x Tendrils, 1x Ideas Unbound), compared to ANT, which would be forced to retain some number of Cabal Rituals or LED (both of which are subpar with Mentor).

In my list, there are two flex slots (Mox Opal/Preordain and Echoing Truth), that can be swapped for Lab Maniac + Chromatic Sphere, Karakas, etc. I chose to include cards that were better with the transformational sideboard than more situational cards, and Echoing Truth is a decent answer to most cards that Lab Maniac is strong against.
The reason I choose not to include a maindeck Lab Maniac is due to my meta being saturated with Delver, Eldrazi, and Miracles. In my opinion the Lab Maniac plan is too fragile against each of these decks. If I was more worried about Gaddock Teeg I would include this maindeck. Also, Monastery Mentor answers many of the decks that Lab Maniac is strong against.
Finally, an opponent is more likely to keep in spot removal if they see a Lab Maniac, which makes the Mentor plan worse.


I'll also add that Wish speeds this deck up at least as much as petals if not more, since it plays so well with LED and brainstorm.

Totally open to be proven wrong.

Buried in a wall of text above (and I admit that Burning Wish is one of my favorite cards):

Comparing LDV to wish:
-I lost many games with Burning Wish because I was forced to fetch a non-basic to cast Wish, compared to casting LDV off of Island + Swamp.
-I do agree that Wish is faster in the situation where you have LED, LED, Top.
-LDV can find LED, Dark Ritual, Probe, or Top vs. Burning Wish, which is able to find Time Spiral and Bounce/Board Wipe. Both can find discard, Tendrils, and Doomsday. I would argue that LDV is slightly faster in game 1 at the cost of being worse against permanent-based hate, which is relatively rare in game 1.
-LDV allows us to play 4 copies of Doomsday in the maindeck, further increasing the speed of the deck.
-LDV can "shuffle" after a Brainstorm or Top activation and is much stronger against discard. Being hit with Cabal Therapy after casting Wish is one of the worst feelings.
-In my experience having both an LDV and a Doomsday feels much less clunky than having Doomsday + Burning Wish, as LDV can turn into fast mana.
-LDV is card disadvantage, which is especially punishing post-board where opponents have many more answers. I would probably prefer Wish in a build without Monastery Mentor.

I think that both LDV and Burning Wish are stronger than Dark Petition as Dark Petition does not allow the mana cost (minimum of 7!) to be split (2 mana and 5 mana). Of course this can be mitigated with an extra cantrip for LED.
As emidln stated earlier, LDV and Brainstorm have a very strong synergy; LDV into Doomsday + Dark Ritual is a common play.

I feel like the deck became faster and more resilient to disruption game 1 after swapping Wish for LDV (likely mostly due to being able to play 4x Doomsday in the maindeck). The manabase in particular feels much more stable.

Edit: Added some more points.

[Zombie]

New Thread
Is there any interest in a new thread (in New and Developmental Decks) so we can discuss card choices specific to this build in detail?

I'd just really like the Doomsday thread to be called Doomsday.

[the driver]

I haven't played with a transformation sideboard so I cant objectively comment. What you say sounds reasonable even if I don't really agree with it initially. It doesn't feel like your playing a Doomsday deck but rather just need a combo deck to trick your opponent in subsequent games with the transformation plan. What I was getting at is I'm curious to see how the results continue or if people catch on or mitigate it. There werent that many game 3s in the report.




Buried in a wall of text above (and I admit that Burning Wish is one of my favorite cards):

Comparing LDV to wish:
-I lost many games with Burning Wish because I was forced to fetch a non-basic to cast Wish, compared to casting LDV off of Island + Swamp.
-I do agree that Wish is faster in the situation where you have LED, LED, Top.
-LDV can find LED, Dark Ritual, Probe, or Top vs. Burning Wish, which is able to find Time Spiral and Bounce/Board Wipe. Both can find discard, Tendrils, and Doomsday. I would argue that LDV is slightly faster in game 1 at the cost of being worse against permanent-based hate, which is relatively rare in game 1.
-LDV allows us to play 4 copies of Doomsday in the maindeck, further increasing the speed of the deck.
-LDV can "shuffle" after a Brainstorm or Top activation and is much stronger against discard. Being hit with Cabal Therapy after casting Wish is one of the worst feelings.
-In my experience having both an LDV and a Doomsday feels much less clunky than having Doomsday + Burning Wish, as LDV can turn into fast mana.
-LDV is card disadvantage, which is especially punishing post-board where opponents have many more answers. I would probably prefer Wish in a build without Monastery Mentor.

I think that both LDV and Burning Wish are stronger than Dark Petition as Dark Petition does not allow the mana cost (minimum of 7!) to be split (2 mana and 5 mana). Of course this can be mitigated with an extra cantrip for LED.
As emidln stated earlier, LDV and Brainstorm have a very strong synergy; LDV into Doomsday + Dark Ritual is a common play.

I feel like the deck became faster and more resilient to disruption game 1 after swapping Wish for LDV (likely mostly due to being able to play 4x Doomsday in the maindeck). The manabase in particular feels much more stable.

Edit: Added some more points.

Your points are all accurate but I'll add a couple comments.

You need to consider how Wish functions post Doomsday (not just to get Tendrils) and especially in combination with brainstorm. These piles make excess Wishes in hand a benefit. Wish + brainstorm piles also are a decent percentage of early turn piles. Since Doomsday tutors the brainstorm in some cases assembling this combination of resources isn't challenging. I find myself executing these piles with a decent frequency.

One of the reason fetching an off basic may be more punishing is the low land count you have with so many excess fast mana sources.

Another point is Wish can also act as a draw spell making it viable in another function. LDV only tutors (or shuffles for you) and I can envision it being very effective, especially if you have brainstorm in hand as you described. However, post Doomsday it is almost dead. This makes the maindeck have a higher percentage of potential dead draws.

[emidln]

I'd just really like the Doomsday thread to be called Doomsday.

That'd be sweet. Let's see what Doomsday lists we can put in there:

// Doomsday
4 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Predict
1 Thought Scour
1 Unearth
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
4 Doomsday
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Pithing Needle
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Shelldock Isle
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
4 Doomsday
4 Divining Witch
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Thought Lash
4 Lotus Petal
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea

// "Doomsday"
1 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Past in Flames
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
4 Doomsday
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Predict
1 Thought Scour
1 Unearth
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp

Which of these should we discuss first? They all belong in the "Doomsday". They have some similarities (I didn't go into more esoteric kills, like Helm/2x SDT/Grapeshot or Predict/Grapeshot/Conjurer's Bauble/LED/Second Sunrise, although I've seen those in lists here and there. Keep in mind these are random lists that I'm throwing out, and I've actually resolved the card Doomsday under pressure before (aka I know how the card works). Won't it be grand to see what others can come up with who see Doomsday as a means to assemble whatever random combo in mono black or maybe a sweet black/red combo deck?

[Dr_D]

Lists



You forgot the Shelldock Isle into Worldfire into Piranha Marsh kill.

[Mhenlo]

What about the Infernal Tutor Iggy Pile

[Kathal]

What about the Infernal Tutor Iggy Pile

Yeah, the lack of the German DDFT made me sad (since I started playing the deck cause of that list).

Also, I played way to long with Helm + Grapeshot in the SB, especially since you can play pretty easy around Teeg and partly Thalia with it (double Helm ftw).

Greetings,
Kathal

[Zombie]

That'd be sweet. Let's see what Doomsday lists we can put in there:

Lists

Which of these should we discuss first? They all belong in the "Doomsday". They have some similarities (I didn't go into more esoteric kills, like Helm/2x SDT/Grapeshot or Predict/Grapeshot/Conjurer's Bauble/LED/Second Sunrise, although I've seen those in lists here and there. Keep in mind these are random lists that I'm throwing out, and I've actually resolved the card Doomsday under pressure before (aka I know how the card works). Won't it be grand to see what others can come up with who see Doomsday as a means to assemble whatever random combo in mono black or maybe a sweet black/red combo deck?

rekt, I got :D

It'd still be a better name than "fetchland Tendrils" though :/


I've actually resolved the card Doomsday under pressure before (aka I know how the card works).

I know, I don't need to be told that. You're one of the people I'd go to for advice if I ever wanted to run a Doomsday deck.

[leegoo]

This is where I was in 2014 (from the storm boards)

UB/g Maniac DD

1 Lab Maniac

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chromatic Sphere

4 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Personal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Predict

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Karakas

SB:
2 Personal Tutor
1 Massacre
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Dread of Night
1 Tropical Island
3 Xantid Swarm

IMO if you're building without maindeck wishes you need either Infernal tutors (german) to loop or Lab Maniac. Otherwise you will find yourself a storm count or so short too much (for my liking) But I pretty much came around to the thinking that Burning Wish is just too strong not to play. Or was in times past at least. In tournament play (especially paper magic) having Lab Man also made life a lot easier on longer days. There are often double doomsday or time spiral piles that will win you the game, but building them under pressure in a realistic time frame is reserved for masters only (I'd say Emidln and Lejay in his DD prime were the only ones that immediately jump to mind)

Not saying that was anywhere near ideal (and years ago still, much different format) but here's the thread (http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/thread/396/maniac-doomsday-tendrils?page=4) if anyone wants to see where we were back then.

[Doishy]

You forgot the Shelldock Isle into Worldfire into Piranha Marsh kill.


I so hope this is taken straight from my sig on stormboards :3

Still need to get me the foil W-Fire and Marsh to make this legit.

[mistercakes]

I had a fun dredge list that could sb into ddft. actually went 3-2 in a league with it.

[Dr_D]

I so hope this is taken straight from my sig on stormboards :3

Still need to get me the foil W-Fire and Marsh to make this legit.

It absolutely is. I would have quoted you, but I forgot whose sig it was from.

[Scott]

Doomsday top 8 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104486) sighting at today's SCG Dallas.

[sillysam71]

Doomsday top 8 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104486) sighting at today's SCG Dallas.

Does anybody know Albert? Would be nice to see a report and what he faced.

[Dr_D]

Does anybody know Albert? Would be nice to see a report and what he faced.

It's on StormBoards.

[Togores]

Could you paste it here? Would like to read it and Im not in that forum.
I just know he beat Joe Losset the win and in.

[davelin]

Could you paste it here? Would like to read it and Im not in that forum.
I just know he beat Joe Losset the win and in.

hese were my match ups with some highlights.

Round 1 - Michael, Storm 2-0
Round 2 - Michael, 4C Delver 2-1
Round 3 - Doug, Shardless BUG 2-1
SPOILER: Click to hide

I mess up horribly in game 1. I knew what he was on before the match started, so when I saw an aggressive hand I kept. I had DR, DD, LED, GP and perfect information but had forgotten that IU was already in my hand. I make a shoddy past-the-turn pile with BW on the bottom, thinking I had the right amount of storm. I miscount the number of draws I have, have a dead GP and scoop them up knowing I was one storm shy of killing him. I do not know why I did not make a Lab Maniac pile.

Game 3 I am on kill turn, cast Cabal Therapy naming FoW, and I see 2 Decays in Doug's hand. This messes up a double LED pile, so I wait a turn. I am allowed to untap with perfect information, and stack IU, LED, GP, Rain, BW to play around the Decays.

Round 4 - Richard, MUD 2-0
SPOILER: Click to hide

Game 2 started with me playing around a known Wasteland, and an impending Sundering Titan (via fast lands and Grim Monolith). I have Island, Swamp, SDT in play, Brainstorm into LED, LED, Top, DD. I put DD on top, use my first LED/SDT to cast DD, and finish up with the second duo of LED/SDT.

Round 5 - Matt, UR Delver 2-1
SPOILER: Click to hide

Game 1 I see 2 Swiftspears, Probe revealed nothing but burn in hand. I punt by trying a PTT pile and forget that I am too low on life.

Game 3 I am torn between natural Tendrils or a DD on the penultimate turn. I am facing down a hellbent opponent with 2 un-flipped Delvers, a Swiftspear, and an active Lavamancer, and I have the board state of Tropical, Underground, Fetch, Top, Xantid Swarm with 1 Therapy in yard. My hand includes DR, LED, LED, Therpay, BW. SDT tells me I have DR, Ponder, Ponder at the top of my library. I am at 10 life.

The Delvers flip to Daze, and he swings for 7, leaving up 'Mancer. I am forced to block, as I die as soon as I fetch, and bereave that the dead Insects cannot cast me the Therapy in my yard. I realize that I am short 1 storm count on my own, and am too low of life to survive a DD + 'Mancer activation, so I have no choice but to hope Matt casts his Daze on something. I did nothing spectacular on my part, but after a slew of Rituals, he attempts to Daze my Cabal Therapy. His misplay gives me the storm I need and costs him the game.

Round 6 - David, Grixis Delver 2-0
SPOILER: Click to hide

Game 1 his only permission is 2 Daze. His only clock is a DRS, so I comfortably obtain mana and kill him without resistance.

Game 2 starts with a Delver on David's side. His hand dwindles down to Fire/Ice (revealed from Delver) and two unknowns. I have plenty of mana, DD and BW in my hand, SDT in play. I figure I can either a. bait him into Icing my SDT and killing him with natural BW > Tendrils, or just b. resolve DD, float a Duress on top and kill him with an Infernal Contract pile.

I cast DR, DR, DD and David tanks. As he is thinking I ask what Ice does, hoping I can actually bait him into doing it. What happens is even better, the Ice is pitched to a FoW, and the natural Tendrils line is wide open. He ends the game with a Pyroblast in his hand.

After the match, David's friend angrily comments "Doomsday is such a f***ed card!" Probably the best thing I heard all day.

Round 7 - Patrick, Reanimator 0-0-3
Round 8 - James, Shardless BUG (2-1)ID
SPOILER: Click to hide

Before pairings I am second, and was somehow paired against my friend in 9th place. He wants to play for a chance at top 8. I beat him in three games, and he asks for an ID. I agree, but he still ends up in 9th due to tie-breakers.


Top 8
Round 1
Mark - Recruiter Death and Taxes
SPOILER: Click to hide

I nab a quick game 1.

Mark responds quickly with a turn 2 Thalia in game 2. I am holding onto Burning Wish and a quick kill, but I never draw the lands to play around Thalia's tax and die to her, a Revoker, and a Canonist.

Game 3 opens with a mulligan to Delta, DR, DD, Brainstorm, Ponder and BS, with a land scry-ed on top. I drop a land and pass, as does he. I main phase BS and see Karakas, Therapy and Decay. My lands are now two Seas, with a hand of DR, DD, Ponder, Therapy. I think - all I need is a pass the turn pile. If he drops Thalia, I can drop Karakas on the following turn and call it a day. My other option is to Cabal Therapy, naming the other bears that kill me, and hope his draws don't get any more potent (in the form of Wasteland or something). I opt for the former option, stacking IU, GP, LED, SDT, Maniac. Sure enough, Mark has the Canonist. As I draw-go, more 2/2 Humans join the battlefield and maul me to death.

A friend, who happens to be fairly proficient at Doomsday, sat down and we tried to think of a PTT pile that played around Canonist, Thalia, and maybe Revoker. We came up with:
IU
Petal
Petal
Top
LM
/end
Cast IU using the two Seas, play Karakas, LP, LP, Top using Karkas. Discard Ponder and Cabal Therapy.
Untap, draw and cast Maniac.
While this pile plays around the hate bears, it loses to a Wasteland on one of the Seas.
What would you have done? The more I think about it the more I am convinced Therapy on Canonist was the right play.


Although I did not play any Miracles players, I still was pleased with the two main deck Abrupt Decays. Against MUD, while it did not need to hit any Chalices or 3Spheres, it did timely catch a Metalworker. Other times, it was just nice knowing I could buy time Decaying a Goyf or Delver. Chain of Vapor is cheaper, and reduces spreading out your colors, but it still gets blown up by Chalice and Counterbalance. I have been tempted to consider Chain, but I don't think it is the right call.

Xantid Swarms performed very well against the slew of Delver decks I ran into. I did not lose any games I put Swarm on the stack.

Void Snare was dead all day. I do not see many instances where I would need to Wish for it, especially with main deck Decays. Considering the metagame I would be happy to play a second Massacre, maybe even the third Xantid Swarm.

I also wonder if Shelldock Isle/Emrakul is good against Reanimator. I feel like it allows the DD player to aggressively pile into a quick win. After all, what is a Griselbrand (and maybe 2 lands) to an Emrakul? What are your thoughts?

[oarsman]

Could you paste it here? Would like to read it and Im not in that forum.
I just know he beat Joe Losset the win and in.

I wasn't in the event, just standing there watching.

[Togores]

I saw you on twitter and thought you where playing the win and in vs him. Was weird that you was positing on twitter that it was 1-0 but whatever^^

[itrytostorm]

Which matchups is the Shelldock plan for?

[Togores]

After seeing somone making Top 8 last week with doomsday I decided to sleeve this beauty up again.
Ended up loosing the finals of the event. Was still great to play a card that reads:
BBB
Someone looses the game.

This where my matchups:
2-0 bug control
2-0 esper control
2-1 omnisneak
2-0 death and taxes
1-2 grixis delver

Empty was quite good in the sb used it like 1 time against sneak, one against taxes and one against grixis. I used it g2 against sneak. When he had a sneak in play but was without hand. But he drew a brainstorm and a griselbrand.

I missed xantid a bit, from how my matchups where and how my opponents sideboarded.

Also think that the chain and the maniac me are not really worth... But I dont know what to play instead because playing the decays like the list I copied is not my ideal plan.

Also the pulverize was worthless may be the void snare would have been better....

http://i.imgur.com/r8swz20.jpg

[kravkenov]

Hi Doomsday enthusiasts,

Is there any kind of "excel sheet" (like the doc from Cheersburger) around for pile that dosent use BW to tutor for ToA ?
I ask this because all the material I found are BW related, and I want to stay in a 3 colors deck (UBG, because of Abrupt Decay and Xantid) and I can't figure out how to up to 10 the storm count :/

The basics piles I have found with this list (see below) is the following :

Cantrip+UUU - 7 storm
cast doomsday (1) into
IU
GP
LED
LED
TOA
Draw IU (with cantrip) (2)
cast IU (3) into GP, LED, LED
Play LED (4), LED (5)
Play GP (6), in response to GP crack LED for BBB BBB
Play Tendrils (7)

and

SDT in play+1UU - 7 storm
cast doomsday (1) into
IU
GP
LED
LED
TOA
Draw IU (with SDT)
cast IU (2) into SDT, GP, LED
Play SDT (3), LED (4), GP (5), in response to GP crack LED for BBB
Play LED (6), crack LED for BBB
Tap SDT to draw Tendrils
Play Tendrils (7)


UBG Maniac Doomsday

1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy

3 Doomsday
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

[emidln]

I rather regret ever putting together a piles document in the first place. They are a crutch that prevent players from becoming good storm players. It's not feasible to memorize variations of a few core piles. Learn how to build a pile with your list. You need card advantage, a way to win, and probably some mana or draw inbetween (depending on whether your win is storm-based or cards in library based).

Take a closer look at the "standard" SDT pile without Burning Wish. You need card advantage. This is usually IU, although sometimes it's BW->Draw4, Brainstorm with extra cards in hand, or stored draws + bounce spells on SDT (abusing SDT's mechanics). Brainstorm is the cheapest way, but has non-mana requirements for cards in hand. IU is the cheapest without other requirements.

A quick overview:

[Top]
IU (Card Advantage)
LED (Mana)
LED (Mana)
GP (free draw + storm + additional storm off SDT if played out of order)
ToA (Win condition)
[Bottom]

With SDT in play and 3 mana available, you can make 5 storm from the pile trivially (casting all spells in the pile) and an extra 1-2 by trading mana production for casting SDT by using your draw spells out of order.

0) Tap SDT, drawing IU (1UU)
1) IU drawing SDT, LED, LED (1)
2) LED (1)
3) LED (1)
3) SDT (0)
4) Tap SDT, resp break LEDs for BBBUUU, drawing GP (BBBUUU)
5) GP drawing SDT (BBBUU)
6) SDT (BBBU)
7) Tap SDT to draw ToA, play ToA with 7 storm (16 lifeloss)

You'll notice that this is different than how you play out with Burning Wish, where you only want to typically cast SDT once inside the pile.

Back to building piles, we find that IU is our card advantage choice. This implies a few things. We get to draw 3 cards, and if we are starting with SDT, this means we will probably need 1UU to draw in (UU for Ideas Unbound to draw SDT + 2 cards of our choice). LED and Rain of Filth are the highest net mana producers in the deck, and typically we max out around 6 mana from our two cards. If you count the rebuy of SDT (bringing out cost up to 1UU) to take advantage of LEDs, we now know that 1UU gets us 6 mana to play something. Alternately, UU can get us 2 draws and we can ignore SDT. We have a third option as well, which is paying our third mana into SDT, using a single mana spell, and a free draw spell (like GP) to pay for a 3 mana (or less) spell on top of our deck with a further draw remaining.

When we analyze what piles can do for us, we typically think in terms of our highest leveraged cards. Often, we analyze a pile in terms of IU, SDT, GP, LP, LED, and ToA/BW/LM because these are just the most efficient ways of draw cards, making mana, and winning the game. Let's frame what IU can do for us in these terms:

1UU -> SDT, LED, LED -> 6 drop
1UU -> SDT, LED, GP -> 3 drop + draw
UU -> SDT, LED, GP -> 3 drop (don't recast SDT)
UU -> SDT, GP, GP -> drawing through your deck (0 cards left) (don't recast SDT)
1UU -> SDT, GP, GP -> drawing through your deck (drawing on an empty deck)
UU -> SDT, BS, LP -> drawing on an empty deck (don't recast SDT)

The 1UU -> SDT, LED, LED line is the conceptual basis of the BW->ToA and the straight ToA kill (buffered with an extra rebuy of SDT via GP).
The 1UU -> SDT, LED, GP line is the conceptual basis of the LM pile. We replay SDT, then LED+GP into LM and use SDT to win.
The other possibilities listed are less commonly useful, but it's important to frame your thoughts around piles in this way.

Now that we've figured out a card advantage spell, and we know from above that we should frame in terms of our most efficient cards first, we can easily pick a pile with LED / LED / GP and look to rebuy SDT since we'll be making an overabundance of mana from our LEDs. ToA has to be our last card.

The things worth talking about for Doomsday piles are interactions that might not be obvious. They tend to the building blocks for off-the-cuff piles in terms of pattern recognition. Once you recognize these, you can apply them in numerous ways. Memorizing piles just isn't that useful when you often need to remove a mana production spell for a disruption piece or you end up replacing a card in pile with something in hand to make it slightly cheaper.


UBG List with less than 4 Doomsday

Please think more about your deck. You literally have to cast Doomsday or your deck does close to nothing. You have no meaningful disruption to stop an aggro attack, so you must find your combo piece ASAP. You even recognize this by playing LDV. Play four copies of Doomsday.

[Dr_D]

@Togores: Beautiful deck as usual, it's always a treat to see pimped DDFT. As you mentioned, you should definitely consider either cutting chain or maniac in the main, as they fill a similar role and I find it best to just have one or the other. If you cut chain, you can add a 17th land, another petal, or a chromatic sphere, all of which I believe have more maindeck utility than chain if you're already running lab man.

Congrats on making the finals of your tourny with the deck!

[Togores]

Also I more or less copied the list and changed the decays for more "good" cards. Would change things of I play it again. Also I think chromatic sphere is not needed. Ald usualy more than 1 petal is also not needed. I also think that a black land is missing. I would like to play 2nd badlands over a volcanic (I only own 1 badlands). I have always have the problem of liking more black lands than not. Because If you dont draw rituals casting doomsday is not easy. Durong the event I had to use led to play it far to many times.


Also on the pile malking, there is no sense on the spreadsheet. In and event you cant use it. And learning all options is nonsense and utopic.
Usualy you just figure them out.

What you wanna reach?
What you have?
What you need?
How much that costs?

Al this is quite easy. Just figure it out and build a pile. Usualy all piles are more or less the same...

[kravkenov]

Thank for the advices, I think I got how the building piles mechanics works. But I didn't find a piles that provide 10 storm (or more) from an LDV based list.
The more storm I was able to get is 7 storm (without counting extra DR or cantrip made before resolving DD).

[Namida]

There aren't many piles that make the full 10 Storm on their own, and you shouldn't need those piles often anyway because in real situations you're probably casting other spells before Doomsday.

At the bare minimum, when you cast Doomsday and you build a pile that draw + cast every card in the pile, this is what you get:
Doomsday (+1 Spell)
The cantrip to draw into the pile (+1 Spell)
The five cards you chose (+5 Spells)

Your main way to make Doomsday reach lethal Storm will likely be planning out your turns to play additional spells before Doomsday. If that is unsatisfactory, the way that you make your Doomsday piles generate more Storm on their own is to include cards that can represent more than one spell. This requires a little work, because you can't just include a ton of cantrips since your library is only 5 cards and trying to just draw extra cards kills you; this means you need cards that can represent multiple spells without just taking them from the top of your deck. For example, two Sensei's Divining Tops let you loop the top of your deck for Storm if you have additional mana. Other options include Ill-Gotten Gains (cards from your graveyard) and Burning Wish (cards from exile). You are opting to play Lim-Dul's Vault instead of Burning Wish, so your extra business cards don't represent multiple spells in the same turn; as a result, choosing to play LDV is choosing to not have access to many of the piles that generate more than 7 Storm on their own.

[davelin]

Which matchups is the Shelldock plan for?

I believe mostly for Miracles.

[sampi]

I believe mostly for Miracles.

Any slow non wasteland deck.

[Togores]

I still dont understand why ppl play lim duls over burning. seems like a card that makes -1 is much worser than a card that makes you deck better and makes you have an out to almost every game. + no lifeloss, and increasing of gameplans and tutors...

[the driver]

I still dont understand why ppl play lim duls over burning. seems like a card that makes -1 is much worser than a card that makes you deck better and makes you have an out to almost every game. + no lifeloss, and increasing of gameplans and tutors...

Most people (almost all) are still playing Burining Wish.

[wsurugby10]

Is there anyone streaming doomsday on a regular basis?

[the driver]

Is there anyone streaming doomsday on a regular basis?

I'm not aware of anyone who knows what they are doing that is.

This is the kind of deck you need to play to learn.

[Doishy]

I believe mostly for Miracles.

Actually Miracles is quite a bad one to try it against as they have the most answers. Terminus off of Top or BS, Karakas, Wasteland in Mentor builds, the occasional Venser all are very good at stopping the SI plan. Something like Sneak and Show is pretty good to bring it in if nothing else because you have the chance to SnT emmy in yourself.

[sillysam71]

Thank for the advices, I think I got how the building piles mechanics works. But I didn't find a piles that provide 10 storm (or more) from an LDV based list.
The more storm I was able to get is 7 storm (without counting extra DR or cantrip made before resolving DD).

The pile that emidln posted on the last page gets to the same storm as the BW pile, since it uses the extra mana to replay top for additional storm. Counting DD, this pile makes 8:

[Top]
IU (Card Advantage)
LED (Mana)
LED (Mana)
GP (free draw + storm + additional storm off SDT if played out of order)
ToA (Win condition)
[Bottom]

With SDT in play and 3 mana available, you can make 5 storm from the pile trivially (casting all spells in the pile) and an extra 1-2 by trading mana production for casting SDT by using your draw spells out of order.

0) Tap SDT, drawing IU (1UU)
1) IU drawing SDT, LED, LED (1)
2) LED (1)
3) LED (1)
3) SDT (0)
4) Tap SDT, resp break LEDs for BBBUUU, drawing GP (BBBUUU)
5) GP drawing SDT (BBBUU)
6) SDT (BBBU)
7) Tap SDT to draw ToA, play ToA with 7 storm (16 lifeloss)

[the driver]

The issue is this increases the requirements for a winning pile. Either mana, specific cards (Top), or both are now necessary which makes other combinations not winning (less mana or other cantrips). Things get constrained even more when you are trying to cast disruption on the same turn, which is why the other scenarios are important. The deck, as a storm based deck, is worse without Wish. I would argue that Lab Maniac doesn't fix that either. But that may be a trade off you're willing to make to support other agendas.

Just want to reiterate that before people invest their time and draw conclusions.

[DireNTropy]

The deck, as a storm based deck, is worse without Wish. I would argue that Lab Maniac doesn't fix that either. But that may be a trade off you're willing to make to support other agendas.

Just want to reiterate that before people invest their time and draw conclusions.

I apologize if I misread this quote, but this is a very strong statement and discouraging testing seems to be needlessly constraining exploration of the deck. Especially after I had posted somewhat strong results (14-5) in gory detail in a relatively competitive meta (~50% Miracles, Delver, and Eldrazi), showing that a list without Burning Wish is at least worth some testing. And as background, I have been playing Doomsday with Burning Wish to some success (Local weekly events, SCG IQs, and Eternal Weekend) for a few years before testing a build without red.

To delve a bit deeper into the debate of Burning Wish vs. Lim-Dul's Vault (LDV), as this is the alternative that I have the most experience with:


The issue is this increases the requirements for a winning pile. Either mana, specific cards (Top), or both are now necessary which makes other combinations not winning (less mana or other cantrips). Things get constrained even more when you are trying to cast disruption on the same turn, which is why the other scenarios are important.

This statement is not universally true. There are many scenarios where a list with Tendrils of Agony in the mainboard reduces the requirements for a winning pile, which also makes casting disruption on the same turn easier. For example, the double cantrip pile of:

Lion's Eye Diamond
Ideas Unbound
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

requires only the mana for the cantrips and Doomsday compared to

Lion's Eye Diamond
Ideas Unbound
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Burning Wish

which does generate an extra storm, but also requires one extra mana (which could be used to cast disruption) in addition to mana for the cantrips and Doomsday.


Comparison of LDV and Burning Wish (Repost seems appropriate)
Advantage of LDV over Wish
-4 copies of Doomsday maindeck vs. 3 copies
-Can find fast mana, or maindeck bounce/decay at instant speed
-Castable off of Island+Swamp; much less vulnerable to Wasteland
-Stronger against discard
-More sideboard space
-Maindeck Tendrils allows for natural storm against resolved Counterbalance/Chalice of the Void
-Can find multiple combo pieces or combo+disruption with some consistency

Advantages of Wish over LDV
-Card disadvantage; this is especially important in post-board games where games are grindier
-Access to wishboard
-More utility post-Doomsday (can find a draw 4 or Tendrils of Agony) and can dodge Pyroblast at the cost of 3 extra mana
-Access to alternative engine (Time Spiral and Empty the Warrens for example)
-No lifeloss
-Does not reset top of the deck (can be a disadvantage)

Both are able to
-Find Doomsday, Tendrils, Discard, and Cantrip (requires an extra sideboard slot with Wish)


Speed of the Deck
Unless I have been playing the Burning Wish version suboptimally for years, I have found that the LDV version is faster by about an average of half a turn. There are many reasons for this, and below I compare the two builds in terms of both storm and mana requirements in common scenarios.


Comboing with 1 Initial Mana Source (IMS) + Cantrip Mana
This is the fastest scenario and the most common configuration is (in hand): Doomsday, Dark Ritual, Cantrip, LED/Cantrip. Brainstorm can replace the last two cards.
LDV is faster at setting this up as it can find both Dark Ritual, Doomsday, LED, or Probe, whereas Wish can only find Doomsday (or cantrip in the board, which is rare). Going through common scenarios:

Top + Cantrip; Wish creates 1 extra storm
Cantrip + Cantrip; LDV requires 1 less mana, but produces 1 less storm
LED + Cantrip; Wish creates 1 extra storm unless Repeal is maindeck
LED + Top; LDV creates 1 extra storm
Brainstorm + 2 blank cards: LDV requires 2 less mana, or same mana for same storm
Brainstorm + Burning Wish/Tendrils of Agony + blank card: LDV requires 1 less mana, but produces 1 less storm


Comboing with 3 Initial Mana Sources (IMS) + Cantrip Mana
In this case we do not need Dark Ritual and have either draw a Doomsday naturally (more likely with 4x Doomsday maindeck) or cast a tutor with the plan of comboing next turn. With LDV we are more resilient to Wasteland and Discard in this scenario at the cost of -1 card in hand. The differences in piles are similar to what has been illustrated above, although without casting Dark Ritual, the cost of -1 storm is higher.

LDV still has the advantage of being able to find LED. Also, not having to find a red source allows us to find 3 black-producing IMS more easily while also providing the blue required to cantrip.


Special Cases
Generating Storm with 2 Tops: Tendrils maindeck has an advantage as the win condition costs 2 less.

Using LED to cast Doomsday, which also requires a Top in play, and thus is slower due to having more requirements. In this scenario, Burning Wish is stronger as it does not require an extra draw effect.

Including Discard/Bounce/Decay in pile: In general this favors maindeck Tendrils as increasing the mana cost of the pile by 4-5 is less impactful when the mana requirement is naturally lowered by 2.


Conclusions
LDV enables comboing with 1-3 IMS more consistently as we are now running 4 copies of actual Doomsday and LDV can find a missing LED or Dark Ritual at the cost of having -1 card in hand. Having a naturally faster deck decreases the cost of replacing lands with Petals as our critical turn comes earlier.

The card disadvantage of LDV is especially painful postboard, but this can be mitigated by the extra sideboard space enabled from not having a wish-board, allowing more matchups to be targetted by narrower hate cards. This also allows for a transformational sideboard. Finally, we can also board out LDV in games 2 and 3.

Having Burning Wish can sometimes lead to an extra storm in Doomsday piles, but there are several cases where having a Tendrils of Agony maindeck leads to cheaper mana requirements, or even more storm. In many cases the extra storm provided by Burning Wish can be accounted for with a combination of Top and the cheaper mana requirement of Tendrils. Finally, having a maindeck Tendrils of Agony considerably increases our chances of winning against Counterbalance + Top game 1.

Cutting the tertiary color helps tremendously against Wasteland decks and improves our mana consistency in general (fetching Sea over Volcanic/Badlands allows us to more easily cast cantrips in addition to building the 3 black IMS required to cast Doomsday without Dark Ritual).

I do not think that testing a build without Burning Wish is a waste of time (even with the stock lists), and I believe that I have provided the necessary theory and empirical evidence to show this.



Edit: Giving credit for pile with Repeal


I've been tinkering around with the U/B vault build, and I've starting running one repeal in the maindeck to give a 6 storm pile in the event that you doomsday with a probe and a LED. The stack goes like so:
-Ideas Unbound
-LED
-Lotus Petal
-Repeal
-Tendrils

You spend your extra blue to bounce your lotus petal, crack LED maintaining priority, then petal and cast your freshly drawn tendrils. The fact that you can use repeal to reset a delver or bounce a few certain hate cards is not terrible, as well.

[the driver]

You cut wish, largely in part unless I missed something, to support a creature transformation sideboard. That qualifies to me as "supporting another agenda". People tried LDV in DDFT for years and settled on Wish because it supports being a combo deck in all 3 games better. Now if you're swapping DDs for creatures, then that's different.

UBr manabase can run 4 basics. That's been very stable versus wasteland in my experience.

There are very cheap piles with Tendrils. No argument. However, they lack storm. In order to generate comparable storms counts to a similarly costing Wish pile (with exceptions both ways) you need either specific resources (Top) and or additional mana. Therefore there will be an increased number of scenarios where you lack the storm count or resources required to win, which in turn reduces the number of "winning combinations" your MD can generate This becomes particularly important in certain matchups where the opponent doesn't lose life.

I'm not sure I follow your examples. You can put LDV back with brainstorm like you can with Wish. Maybe you are comparing maindeck Tendrils when you say LDV? In any case the Bennosti pile document showcases that comparison clearly.

Please don't take offense. I'm not discounting your results. I'm not trying to discourage testing things or people playing whatever they want. But just the notion that Wish is bad now and people are off it is not as pervasive as this thread suggests.

[DireNTropy]

Thanks for the reply!


You cut wish, largely in part unless I missed something, to support a creature transformation sideboard. That qualifies to me as "supporting another agenda". People tried LDV in DDFT for years and settled on Wish because it supports being a combo deck in all 3 games better. Now if you're swapping DDs for creatures, then that's different.

This is true. However, my results in game 1 have been very encouraging. You yourself noted that there were very few game 3's in my reports. This is due to the success I had with the maindeck (LDV over Wish). I believe that even without Mentors, exploring LDV over Wish has potential. At the very least, we get 15 sideboard slots.


UBr manabase can run 4 basics. That's been very stable versus wasteland in my experience.

True, but cutting red will lead to a strictly stronger manabase, as the maindeck is now only two colors. So we can debate on how much more stable the mana is, but the version without wish will be more stable.


There are very cheap piles with Tendrils. No argument. However, they lack storm. In order to generate comparable storms counts to a similarly costing Wish pile (with exceptions both ways) you need either specific resources (Top) and or additional mana. Therefore there will be an increased number of scenarios where you lack the storm count or resources required to win, which in turn reduces the number of "winning combinations" your MD can generate This becomes particularly important in certain matchups where the opponent doesn't lose life.

I'm not sure I follow your examples. You can put LDV back with brainstorm like you can with Wish. Maybe you are comparing maindeck Tendrils when you say LDV? In any case the Bennosti pile document showcases that comparison clearly.

First, I think that the number of scenarios where Wish generates an extra storm over maindeck Tendrils is over-exaggerated. In my provided examples there are 3 cases where Wish provides 1 more storm, but in 2 of those cases, maindeck tendrils requires less mana, which allows an extra cantrip and/or disruption spell to be cast. In the latter cases, maindeck Tendrils is stronger as a cantrip can result in +1 storm overall (cantrip into petal/LED/discard), and the benefits of casting discard on the combo turn are obvious. Having a lower initial mana requirement also increases our chances of cantripping into the missing combo piece and winning on the same turn. Let me know if the example cases are not clear or if I miscalculated the minimum requirements. If I am correct, I do not think that there is a clear-cut advantage of Wish over maindeck Tendrils in terms of winning piles.

In the Top+LED case, maindeck Tendrils actually allows for +1 storm over the Burning Wish version.

To summarize, in a majority of scenarios the Wish-less version is capable of providing the same storm count for the same mana with very loose requirements (any additional 1 mana spell works) and there are scenarios where maindeck Tendrils actually provides more storm and/or has less mana requirements, which makes it more flexible. I personally did not run into any issues in my testing with storm count, but I am running 4x Lotus Petals, which, as I mentioned earlier, is less of a risk due to the faster nature of the Wish-less list.

Finally, I don't recall mentioning LDV when talking about piles with Brainstorm; you are probably right in that I am talking about maindeck Tendrils vs. Burning Wish. In any case, I have conceded that Wish is indeed stronger than LDV post-Doomsday. Also, I have not looked at compilations of piles, as I am rather comfortable with creating them on the fly, so I cannot comment on those.



Please don't take offense. I'm not discounting your results. I'm not trying to discourage testing things or people playing whatever they want. But just the notion that Wish is bad now and people are off it is not as pervasive as this thread suggests.

Nothing wrong with a lively debate! Again, Burning Wish is one of my favorite cards and I played with it for several years before trying a list without Wishes. I am merely presenting my results and encouraging testing. And of course, an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, which is why I did not post until I had many events to discuss.

[the driver]

Thanks for the reply!


To summarize, in a majority of scenarios the Wish-less version is capable of providing the same storm count for the same mana with very loose requirements (any additional 1 mana spell works) and there are scenarios where maindeck Tendrils actually provides more storm and/or has less mana requirements, which makes it more flexible. I personally did not run into any issues in my testing with storm count, but I am running 4x Lotus Petals, which, as I mentioned earlier, is less of a risk due to the faster nature of the Wish-less list.



This is the bit I disagree with the most.

BS/Ponder:
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW BBB+UUU (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, ToA BBB+UUU (6) 7 Storm

GP:
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW BBB+UU (5) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, ToA BBB+UU (5) 7 Storm

SDT in play + GP:
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, BW BBB (3) 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA BBB (3) 8 Storm

2x GP:
-> LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> LED, IU, LP, LED, BW BBB+1 (4) 9 Storm

These are just variations off the basic pile. For others the list goes on, most double cantrip piles, most piles with IU, most BS piles, etc. There are instances where a maindeck tendrils is either more cost effective (and you could theoretically cast another card) or makes more storm (i.e X2 Top in play) but the majority of piles make more storm for the same mana with wish. The pile document isn't so much to learn piles but is a nice easy reference for theory crafting.

Also you can definitely run a maindeck Tendrils alongside Wish. Our LDV vs Wish debate had skewed that line. With that you could get all the benefits of both. Although I still favor Tendrils out of the MD.

I'd be curious to here how things go without the transform sideboard if you test something more traditional. Cheers.

EDIT: I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and we can certainly agree to disagree but I wanted to add this for others who are looking at both sides and formulating there opinion. In any case, there's life in the DDFT thread.

[DireNTropy]

Good analysis! My rebuttal below:


This is the bit I disagree with the most.

BS/Ponder:
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW BBB+UUU (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, ToA BBB+UUU (6) 7 Storm

GP:
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW BBB+UU (5) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, ToA BBB+UU (5) 7 Storm

SDT in play + GP:
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, BW BBB (3) 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA BBB (3) 8 Storm

2x GP:
-> LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> LED, IU, LP, LED, BW BBB+1 (4) 9 Storm

These are just variations off the basic pile.

This is correct, although overly simplifies two categories of combo turns; specifically whether the blue mana for Ideas Unbound comes from LED or from IMS (pile compilations tend to do this?). In my experience paying for IU with IMS tends to be uncommon; I most often pay for IU with LED (either having it before Doomsday or drawing it with a 2nd cantrip).

Redoing the first two set of piles where the blue mana for Ideas Unbound originates from LED, and compressing cantrips:

Single Cantrip + LED
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LP, LED, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 7 Storm
-> IU, Repeal, LP, LED, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm

Here we see that we get the same storm count in what I would argue to be a more common scenario (Cantrip + LED after casting Doomsday). However, this does require a maindeck Repeal, which has decent synergy with the rest of the deck. An added bonus is that the middle pile plays around Abrupt Decay.


For others the list goes on, most double cantrip piles, most piles with IU, most BS piles, etc. There are instances where a maindeck tendrils is either more cost effective (and you could theoretically cast another card) or makes more storm (i.e X2 Top in play) but the majority of piles make more storm for the same mana with wish.

I disagree with the claim that a majority of piles are strictly better with Wish.

Top in play
-> IU, LED, GP, LED, BW -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, Repeal, ToA -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 9 Storm

Top + LED in play
-> IU, LED, GP, LED, BW -> BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA -> BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, Repeal, ToA -> BBB (3) 9 Storm

One of the most common, if not the most common, cases is drawing into the pile with Top and both versions produce the same storm for the same mana cost. Top + LED also creates the cheapest piles, which is key in accelerating the deck. With maindeck Repeal, these piles generate 1 more storm than the versions without maindeck Tendrils.

2x Cantrip
-> LED, IU, LP, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip+1 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm

In this scenario, the +1 mana could be used to cast disruption or an additional cantrip, which allows us to potentially combo a turn earlier (cantrip into combo is 1 mana cheaper in cases with maindeck Tendrils).

Top + Cantrip
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LED, LP, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm

Here the Wish-less version has 1 less storm for the same mana, but is able to play around Abrupt Decay for +1 mana (pile depends on where you predict the opponent will cast it)

Brainstorm
I showed above that the most common piles drawn into with Brainstorm are either strictly more flexible (1 blank card) or trade off one storm for 1 mana if Wish is in hand (which again, allows for the flexibility of casting disruption or finding the missing combo piece with a cantrip). Also, in both cases the version with maindeck Tendrils has a pile that is not susceptible to Abrupt Decay. In more detail (let me know if my piles are incorrect):

Brainstorm + 1 Blank card
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+U+R+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, DR, ToA -> BBBB+U (5) 7 Storm
-> IU, SDT,LED, LED, ToA -> BBB+U+2 (6) 8 Storm

Here we see that having a maindeck Tendrils is stictly more flexible when drawing into the pile with Brainstorm and at least 1 Blank card. Also, producing 2 generic mana or 1 black mana is much easier than producing R+1 mana.

Brainstorm + BW
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, LP -> BBB+U+1 (5) 8 Storm

Brainstorm + ToA
-> IU, GP, LED, DR, LP -> BBB+U (4) 7 Storm

Similar to above, the +1 mana could be used to cast disruption or an additional cantrip, which allows us to potentially combo a turn earlier (cantrip into combo is 1 mana cheaper in cases with maindeck Tendrils).


The pile document isn't so much to learn piles but is a nice easy reference for theory crafting.

I agree that they could be a useful tool, but they can oversimplify in-game scenarios (for example, condensing the two vastly different cases of where the mana for IU originates from). I think in these discussions we need to be very clear about the details.


Also you can definitely run a maindeck Tendrils alongside Wish. Our LDV vs Wish debate had skewed that line. With that you could get all the benefits of both. Although I still favor Tendrils out of the MD.

The opposite argument can also be had; running a singleton Burning Wish for +1 storm, while inelegant could be worth consideration in an otherwise Wish-less list.


I'd be curious to here how things go without the transform sideboard if you test something more traditional. Cheers.

The game 1's in the reports should give a decent idea of how a Wish-less version performs. I would think that post-board should be even more in the favor of the Wish-less version as we gain access to a full 15-card sideboard. For example, we could run 2x Tendrils of Agony, 2x Grip, 4x Abrupt Decay in the board for the Miracles matchup and be highly favored.


EDIT: I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and we can certainly agree to disagree but I wanted to add this for others who are looking at both sides and formulating there opinion. In any case, there's life in the DDFT thread.

I think that we are definitely having a productive debate. However, we have been focusing on a single aspect of the Wish vs. Wish-less lists, specifically how a maindeck Tendrils without Burning Wish changes the requirements on the combo turn after casting Doomsday. I do not think that this is the most important point to be debating as both versions can easily include the other win condition. Below I will attempt to summarize our discussion on this issue; let me know if I am overly biased or oversimplifying anything, and hopefully we can expand our discussion to other points.


Summary of Combo-Turn Requirements of Maindeck Tendrils vs. Burning Wish after casting Doomsday
-Generates one less storm in cases where we pay for Ideas Unbound with IMS and Top + Cantrip cases
-Generates same storm count in cases where we draw into our pile with Top, and 1 more storm with Repeal.
-Requires Repeal to generate same storm count in cases where we pay for Ideas Unbound with LED without Top
-Cheaper by 1 mana, but produces 1 less storm in 2x Cantrip and Brainstorm + Wish/Tendrils cases
-Strictly better with Brainstorm + 1 blank card (either cheaper mana or same storm for same mana)
-Much easier to generate extra storm with 2 tops; will get +2 storm from this pile compared to the Wish version
-Much easier to include discard/bounce/Decay in pile since win condition is 2 mana cheaper
-Cheaper to play around Abrupt Decay since double LED is not required as often

From my experience I have found that the bottleneck in speed comes from the initial mana requirements and not storm count; In my opinion cheaper combo-turns are more important, especially if we want to cast discard on the same turn, as storm count can be easily mitigated by holding artifact mana or cantrips. Perhaps this is due to my decklist choices; specifically running 4x Lotus Petal. Finally, this becomes even less of an issue if we include the Lab Maniac win condition.


Discussion of Speed of LDV vs. Wish
I realize that this is mostly a repost, but I feel like this (more important) topic has been overlooked due to the focus on the pile-requirements on the combo-turn.

Doomsday combo turn numbers are bimodal, depending on whether or not we draw a Dark Ritual. Having a Dark Ritual reduces the IMS required by 2 and is almost always present in any combo turns with 3 or less IMS. Also, avoiding paying for IU with IMS requires finding either a second cantrip or an LED. If we want to combo consistently on turns 1-3, we require finding Doomsday + Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Cantrip/LED or Doomsday + Dark Ritual + Brainstorm (or Wish + LED + LED + Top). LDV is superior to Wish in this respect due to being able to find Dark Ritual, Doomsday, LED, or Probe (effectively increasing each count to 4+Number of LDV), where Wish is only able to find Doomsday (Wish + LED + LED + Top is much more restrictive as they are all 4-ofs compared to 16 cantrips), and constrains Doomsday to a 3-of in the maindeck. Finally LDV is able to find multiple combo pieces if used aggressively.

Against Wasteland decks, we protect ourselves against losing an IMS due to being able to tutor for a missing combo piece without fetching a dual land, which will accelerate the combo turn by 1.

Due to the faster nature of the deck, as well as the increased resilience to Wasteland, a higher land count is not as important and we are able to cut down to land counts found in other storm decks and increase the number of Lotus Petals. We are highly dependent on IMS (we run only 4-5 Ritual effects compared to other storm decks with 8-10), and each Lotus Petal drawn typically accelerates our combo by 1 turn, especially if we are casting Doomsday and/or Ideas Unbound using IMS, while also solving the storm count problem. I have found that a vast majority of turn 1-3 wins use at least 1 Lotus Petal, as well as most wins that include casting a discard spell on the combo turn.



Edit: Forgot to include one of the most common cases; drawing into the pile with Top
Edit 2: Added piles with Repeal to cases with Top that generate +1 storm
Edit 3: Added comments on piles that naturally play around Abrupt Decay
Edit 4: Fixed draw into pile with Top for Burning Wish version

[the driver]

Firstly, you put a lot of effort into your posts and so you deserve to be commended for that. /clap

I'm going to address the post and likely after this I will bow out on this topic. Bottom line up front, in my view, Wish > LDV. Maindeck Tendrils is fine but not necessary. Wish,
- increases pile storm counts
- increases winning card combinations (ins't dead in hand post DD, wish + led, etc)
- access to sideboard answers
- access to alternate win cons
- tutors for doomsday
- can be a pseudo cantrip


Good analysis! My rebuttal below:


This is correct, although overly simplifies two categories of combo turns; specifically whether the blue mana for Ideas Unbound comes from LED or from IMS (pile compilations tend to do this?). In my experience paying for IU with IMS tends to be uncommon; I most often pay for IU with LED (either having it before Doomsday or drawing it with a 2nd cantrip).

This assumes you have LED which isn't always the case.


Redoing the first two set of piles where the blue mana for Ideas Unbound originates from LED, and compressing cantrips:

Single Cantrip + LED
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm
-> IU, Repeal, LP, LED, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm

Here we see that we get the same storm count in what I would argue to be a more common scenario (Cantrip + LED after casting Doomsday). However, this does require a maindeck Repeal, which has decent synergy with the rest of the deck.

Assuming you have MD Repeal is a generous assumption. It could be fine but hasn't ever seen play. In the above examples the TOA pile would produce less storm


I disagree with the claim that a majority of piles are strictly better with Wish.

Top in play
-> IU, LED, LED, BW, blank -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 7 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, Repeal, ToA -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 9 Storm

Top + LED in play
-> IU, LED, LED, BW, blank -> BBB (3) 7 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA -> BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, Repeal, ToA -> BBB (3) 9 Storm

One of the most common, if not the most common, case is drawing into the pile with Top. Here we see that the version with maindeck Tendrils creates more storm than the version with only Burning Wish. Top + LED also creates the cheapest piles, which is key in accelerating the deck. With maindeck Repeal, these piles generate 2 more storm than the versions without maindeck Tendrils.

I don't understand why in both of these examples you present " IU, LED, LED, BW, blank" versus "IU, LED, GP, LED, Wish" which would generate 1 more storm for the same mana. Once again Repeal.



2x Cantrip
-> LED, IU, LP, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip+1 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm

In this scenario, the +1 mana could be used to cast disruption or an additional cantrip, which allows us to potentially combo a turn earlier (cantrip into combo is 1 mana cheaper in cases with maindeck Tendrils).

Agree the pile is cheaper. This scenario assumes that the cantrips are exactly X2 ponder, you can't afford the life from Probe, and you don't blanks for BS, etc Totally reasonable assumption. However, the pile still generates less storm. Casting disruption or another cantrip assumes you have those cards (possible) and combo'ing earlier is for less mana is potentially less likely when the pile makes less storm because your opponent is likely at higher life.



Top + Cantrip
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm

Here the Wish-less version has 1 less storm for the same mana.
yep



Brainstorm
I showed above that the most common piles drawn into with Brainstorm are either strictly more flexible (1 blank card) or trade off one storm for 1 mana if Wish is in hand (which again, allows for the flexibility of casting disruption or finding the missing combo piece with a cantrip). In more detail (let me know if my piles are incorrect):

Brainstorm + 1 Blank card
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+U+R+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, DR, ToA -> BBBB+U (5) 7 Storm
-> IU, SDT,LED, LED, ToA -> BBB+U+2 (6) 8 Storm

Here we see that having a maindeck Tendrils is stictly more flexible when drawing into the pile with Brainstorm and at least 1 Blank card. Also, producing 2 generic mana or 1 black mana is much easier than producing R+1 mana.

Brainstorm + BW
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, LP -> BBB+U+1 (5) 8 Storm

Brainstorm + ToA
-> IU, GP, LED, DR, LP -> BBB+U (4) 7 Storm

Similar to above, the +1 mana could be used to cast disruption or an additional cantrip, which allows us to potentially combo a turn earlier (cantrip into combo is 1 mana cheaper in cases with maindeck Tendrils).

In either case it is still less storm which requires you to "make up the difference". Also the following is another pile that raises the count even higher.

-> IU, GP, LED, LED, LED BBB+UR (5) 9 Storm

This also doesn't completely account for the value of having Wish in hand in combination with brainstorm with respect to having Wish + blank. This piles typically cost BBB + U. Using Top or another cantrip to grab BS off the stack only adds U/1. The likelyhood of these piles when running 3-4 Wish increases drastically. LDV post DD is dead in hand. I'm you will assume you've used it but then the combo turn is delayed past turn 2. Wish increases the number of turn 1 and turn 2 win. Important in some matchups.


I agree that they could be a useful tool, but they can oversimplify in-game scenarios (for example, condensing the two vastly different cases of where the mana for IU originates from). I think in these discussions we need to be very clear about the details.

They are very specific scenarios but useful when ensuring you explore all combinations of winning scenarios.


The opposite argument can also be had; running a singleton Burning Wish for +1 storm, while inelegant could be worth consideration in an otherwise Wish-less list.

This is true from a storm count perspective. Not true when you consider the utility Wish offers post Doomsday that LDV doesn't, such as drawing into the pile or in combination with brainstorm. Not to mention other win cons, tutoring for things, etc you get from running multiples.


The game 1's in the reports should give a decent idea of how a Wish-less version performs. I would think that post-board should be even more in the favor of the Wish-less version as we gain access to a full 15-card sideboard. For example, we could run 2x Tendrils of Agony, 2x Grip, 4x Abrupt Decay in the board for the Miracles matchup and be highly favored.

This is what I'm curious about. Against slower decks it would be helpful but versus something faster maybe not. This deck is so efficient in that almost every card is a combo piece. Diluting the MD with non direct combo pieces (LDV) and doing so more so post board with a deeper sideboard might dilute things. it might not! maybe you board out LDV, I dunno.


I think that we are definitely having a productive debate. However, we have been focusing on a single aspect of the Wish vs. Wish-less lists, specifically how a maindeck Tendrils without Burning Wish changes the requirements on the combo turn after casting Doomsday. I do not think that this is the most important point to be debating as both versions can easily include the other win condition. Below I will attempt to summarize our discussion on this issue; let me know if I am overly biased or oversimplifying anything, and hopefully we can expand our discussion to other points.


Summary of Combo-Turn Requirements of Maindeck Tendrils vs. Burning Wish after casting Doomsday
-Generates one less storm in cases where we pay for Ideas Unbound with IMS and Top + Cantrip cases
-Generates one more storm in cases where we draw into our pile with Top, and 2 more storm with Repeal.
-Requires Repeal to generate same storm count in cases where we pay for Ideas Unbound with LED without Top
-Cheaper by 1 mana, but produces 1 less storm in 2x Cantrip and Brainstorm + Wish/Tendrils cases
-Strictly better with Brainstorm + 1 blank card (either cheaper mana or same storm for same mana)
-Much easier to generate extra storm with 2 tops; will get +2 storm from this pile compared to the Wish version
-Much easier to include discard/bounce/Decay in pile since win condition is 2 mana cheaper

From my experience I have found that the bottleneck in speed comes from the initial mana requirements and not storm count; In my opinion cheaper combo-turns are more important, especially if we want to cast discard on the same turn, as storm count can be easily mitigated by holding artifact mana or cantrips. Perhaps this is due to my decklist choices; specifically running 4x Lotus Petal. Finally, this becomes even less of an issue if we include the Lab Maniac win condition.

I'll admit running more artifact mana can potentially mitigate storm counts. But, in later games they can be a dead draw and in some cases or worse than a land, i.e. vs thalia, vs chalice/thorn, etc. Petal quickly becomes a bad draw, unless you need it to bump storm.


Discussion of Speed of LDV vs. Wish
I realize that this is mostly a repost, but I feel like this (more important) topic has been overlooked due to the focus on the pile-requirements on the combo-turn.

Doomsday combo turn numbers are bimodal, depending on whether or not we draw a Dark Ritual. Having a Dark Ritual reduces the IMS required by 2 and is almost always present in any combo turns with 3 or less IMS. Also, avoiding paying for IU with IMS requires finding either a second cantrip or an LED. If we want to combo consistently on turns 1-3, we require finding Doomsday + Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Cantrip/LED or Doomsday + Dark Ritual + Brainstorm (or Wish + LED + LED + Top). LDV is superior to Wish in this respect due to being able to find Dark Ritual, Doomsday, LED, or Probe (effectively increasing each count to 4+Number of LDV), where Wish is only able to find Doomsday (Wish + LED + LED + Top is much more restrictive as they are all 4-ofs compared to 16 cantrips), and constrains Doomsday to a 3-of in the maindeck. Finally LDV is able to find multiple combo pieces if used aggressively.

Against Wasteland decks, we protect ourselves against losing an IMS due to being able to tutor for a missing combo piece without fetching a dual land, which will accelerate the combo turn by 1.

Due to the faster nature of the deck, as well as the increased resilience to Wasteland, a higher land count is not as important and we are able to cut down to land counts found in other storm decks and increase the number of Lotus Petals. We are highly dependent on IMS (we run only 4-5 Ritual effects compared to other storm decks with 8-10), and each Lotus Petal drawn typically accelerates our combo by 1 turn, especially if we are casting Doomsday and/or Ideas Unbound using IMS, while also solving the storm count problem. I have found that a vast majority of turn 1-3 wins use at least 1 Lotus Petal, as well as most wins that include casting a discard spell on the combo turn.

Remember combing early (turn 1 / 2) requires high storm counts. Wish also gives access to alternate win cons (empty) that offer a lot of early combo turns that often get the job done and don't require finding DD. Once we get to turn three then LDV turn 2 vs wish turn 2 is prolly a wash. Wish nets you an extra card (vs LDV) that has a high probability of being combo turn relevant. LDV only nets two combo pieces if you can get them the next turn, otherwise you wait till turn 4 to combo.

I haven't found that I needed petal for early wins. Top + cantrip, Wish + LEDs, brainstorm piles are all common turn 2 kills.

I'm not as worried about wasteland. I regularly play 4 color and have zero issues with 4 MD Wishes.

EDIT: One of the things I omitted. One of the advantages in my view of how the traditional Wish MD is constructed is the fact that essentially every card (you could view it as a maximum number of cards) in the maindeck act as combo pieces. I don't have a list but I am confident that a MD constructed as such would have a higher number of winning combinations of cards plus resources. More opportunities to win then the better in my view. Furthermore most cards no only work towards a combo turn but also can work post DD to create a winning piles. By removing Wish these opportunities go down. That's very critical in my view.

This has been a great discussion and I think it highlights the depth of this awesome deck. Cheers again!

[Namida]

DireNTropy, when you say that not playing Wish speeds the deck up, it seems strange to me. What is normally happening in your fastest games? Lim-Dul's Vault being a two mana play makes me believe at first glance that it isn't frequently contributing to your ability to win before Turn 3, which is right around what I consider to be the average goldfish turn for this deck. I'm sure that Doomsday #4 and 4 Lotus Petals does push things a little closer to Turn 2, but my experience has been that a big part of being able to push Turn 2 wins is Burning Wish in your deck to add +1 Storm to your Doomsday Pile. This argument was a bit stronger before you started mentioning that Repeal allows you to generate the same Storm; I'd like to hear more arguments about how Repeal will be useful outside of Doomsday Piles. In any case, I really don't like including cards like 1-of Burning Wish or Repeal for the sole purpose of increasing Storm because you put those cards in your deck to win earlier, but you also introduce the element of needing to not draw those cards before going off since you're using LED mana to make your fastest piles function. This is also a reason I don't like playing maindeck Tendrils (though I also will concede that I'm not as comfortable as I should be with natural Tendrils piles).

[dte]

The discussion is very interesting here.

I will not enter into piles considerations, as you already made very good demonstrations with them. However I think that you focus a bit too much on the storm count.
I've played quite a bit with LDV, and the problem is rarely lacking storm, even without repeal (Never played it, but seems like an interesting card against permanent based hate). Maybe I don't notice that much the lack of storm count because I switch to labman piles if necessary, so there may be a bias here.

DireNTropy is right about saying that it speeds up the deck: The T1/T2 kills are most often done when you do not tutor for DD, having 33% more DD in your deck speeds it up, as well as the 4 petals. The possibility of tutoring DD T2 for a T3 win out of 2 basics is something important too, shouldn't be overlooked.
However, the wish version can play very early EtW that do not lead to an immediate victory, but can be counted as fast wins.

To my opinion, the main differences between the 2 versions are:
- the lack of Empty the Warrens. The card is so good against most decks;
- the card disadvantage from LDV. It makes the card weaker against countermagic and top (hiding countermagic);
- the protection vs discard offered by LDV. It happens quite often that you play wish T2 hoping for a T3 kill only to get your wish target discarded;
- the SB space: On one hand, not having to have targets free some space; on the other hand, you do not have access to these cards G1 and have a less good tool to tutor for them. The LDV builds put less constraints on it as you do not have to play mostly rituals (you can play things such as DireNTropy's manplan).
- the possibility to play at instant speed. Playing a LDV as an answer to a hate card or a discard should not be overlooked;
- the life loss. It is not that big of an issue but it will cost you games;
- the wasteland sensitivity from volcs.

[Slag]

Yeah, it's worth remembering that a pile with +1 storm because of Burning wish and pile with enough storm and a tendrils at the bottom accomplish the same thing. I've found that there is a pile for most storm counts, even if you have to go with the double doomsday pass-the-turn pile.

You all have had a good discussion on LDV vs. wish, I just have a few observations, after playing both styles:
-I use LDV to get a lion's eye diamond or a probe as much as I use it to find a doomsday
-you can use LDV as a Hail Mary to try and line up brainstorm and two missing combo pieces
-What I miss about burning wish is not finding doomsday so much as it is finding Massacre or cruel bargain


I'd like to hear more arguments about how Repeal will be useful outside of Doomsday Piles.
Repeal can be used to bounce an opponent's threats while you are digging for combo pieces. Pairing Repeal with a lotus petal or LED, you can cantrip with it or use it to add +3 storm. It can also bounce a few odd hate cards, like Thalia or Ethersworn Canonist and it pairs nicely with Cabal Therapy.

[DireNTropy]

As a tangent to the previous discussion of Burning Wish in Doomsday, I was curious about how much of a benefit Burning Wish offers by being able to access Empty the Warrens (EtW), so I performed a calculation of the strength of Empty the Warrens in the stock Doomsday list. This analysis is split into multiple parts; in the first section I will compare the ease and strength of casting Empty the Warrens between TES, ANT, and Doomsday, in the second section I will discuss the strength required from Empty the Warrens to succeed in the current meta, in the third section, I present an analytical calculation of the probability of casting different strength Empty the Warrens on turn 1 and turn 2, and summarize my findings.

Comparison of Empty the Warrens in Various Storm Decks
First, the ease and strength of casting Empty the Warrens depends largely on a few factors; the color of the tutor(s), the color of the rituals, and the number of cards that increase storm/mana. Cantrips, discard, and tutors can increase storm count with excess mana.

TES
-Red and Black tutors
-Only deck with Red-producing Ritual
-Can cast EtW off of 1 Initial Mana Source (IMS), black or red; only black IMS requires LED
-Can cast naturally drawn EtW off of 1 IMS for 4 mana
-Fewest dead cards (Ad Nauseam, 8 cantrips, 6 discard and 7 redundant tutors,12-13 land)
-Can win even after a sweeper with Grapeshot
-This deck is capable of producing 12+ goblins on turns 1-2 with consistency

ANT
-Tutors and rituals are both black
-Can cast EtW off of 1 IMS with LED
-Needs 2 IMS to cast naturally drawn EtW (no red rituals and LED does not help, unless using cantrip + LED)
-Cabal Ritual requires either 2 IMS or a Dark Ritual to be useful
-More dead cards (2 Engine Spells, 8-10 cantrips, 6 discard and 3-5 redundant tutors, 15 land)
-This deck has same-color, but non-red tutors and rituals, which allow casting Empty the Warrens off of only 1 IMS with LED, or 2 IMS without LED.

Doomsday
-Red tutor and black ritual
-Requires 2 IMS, even with LED (unless using cantrip + LED to cast Burning Wish)
-No maindeck EtW
-Most dead cards (1-2 flex cards, 3 Doomsday, Ideas Unbound, 2-3 redundant tutors, 12 cantrips, 7 discard, 15-17 land)
-This deck has the hardest time both casting EtW and has the most anemic results

Matchups
Using the MTGO meta for percentages:

Miracles (17%)
We probably need to put them on a 2-turn clock, so 10 goblins on turn 1 and I would be uncomfortable giving them until turn 4 to find a Terminus

Delver (15%)
A medium-sized EtW is likely fine, although Young Pyromancer can provide an answer to a medium-sized, late EtW

Shardless BUG+Eldrazi (12%)
We need 10 goblins turn 1 or 12 goblins turn 2, assuming that 1 creature is played per turn

Combo (ANT, Infect,SnT,Lands,Elves) (18%)
I am not confident in winning by turn 3-4. Lands can tutor for Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm.

So we see in most matchups that EtW is viable, we should aim for 10 goblins on turn 1 or 12 on turn 2. Against Delver, this number can probably be lowered a bit.

Calculation

BORING DETAILS HERE
I assume a stock list with:
4x Burning Wish
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
15-17x Land
2-4x Lotus Petal (Land + Lotus Petal = 19)
21x Other (7 discard, 4 top)

First, I create a 8-dimensional array of the probabilities of having combinations of 0-7 of the following cards:
Land, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Other

Where the probability is calculated using a multivariate Hypergeometric Distribution (see wikipedia).

Then I find hands that naturally have an Empty the Warrens, specifically checking for:
-Burning Wish
-2 Initial Mana Sources (IMS), where 1 must be red
-6 Total Mana, where 2 must be red

Then, of the hands that do not have a natural Empty the Warrens, I calculate the probability of finding the missing pieces required to cast Empty the Warrens from IMS through a cantrip.

Finally if the above two routes don't work, I calculate the probability of being able to leverage two cantrips to cast Empty the Warrens with LED mana.

Then, from each successful combination of cards, I break up each probability of that specific combination into probabilities for different storm counts by using excess initial mana sources to cast Cantrips (prioritizing artifact mana) and discard/Tops.

For the calculation for Turn 2, I calculate the probability of casting a cantrip (prioritizing Ponder over Brainstorm if both are available) on turn 1 and adjust the number of cards seen as appropriate. This is obviously more difficult as there are a myriad of potential Turn 1 plays.

Assumptions
A few assumptions were made to simplify the calculation; which should result in an overall increase both in the chance of casting Empty the Warrens and storm count
-Lands are all gold lands that shuffle the deck when played (important for turn 2)
-Brainstorm and Ponder are effectively treated as taking the best 8 card combination out of 10 cards, with the difference being that Brainstorm is able to cast a Burning Wish initially in hand with LED mana. This will negligibly inflate storm counts, as this approximation works as long as at least one card seen off of the cantrip is unecessary.
-Gitaxian Probes are effectively invisible; I treat the deck as 56 cards, which makes Brainstorm and Ponder slightly stronger. For casting Burning Wish off of LED mana, I calculate the probability that a Gitaxian Probe was in the initial 10 cards (intial 7 + 3 from cantrip). Again this should negligibly inflate storm counts
-I omitted the scenario of playing top, paying 1 mana to look, and drawing/casting Burning Wish off of LED mana.

Results


Turn
Turn 1
Turn 1
Turn 1

Turn 2
Turn 2
Turn 2


N Petal
4 Petal
3 Petal
2 Petal

4 Petal
3 Petal
2 Pteal


Total %
7.8%
7.4%
7.1%

21.4%
20.6%
19.3%


Opening Hand
2.1%
1.5%
1.0%

14.9%
13.9%
12.8%


Cantrip + IMS
0.3%
0.2%
0.1%

2.2%
1.8%
1.3%


2xCantrip + LED
5.3%
5.7%
6.0%

4.3%
4.9%
6.5%












Storm >4 (Turn 1)
Storm >5 (Turn 2)
100%
100%
100%

74%
70%
65%


Average Storm
7.26
7.20
7.18

6.44
6.27
6.08


Goblins/Game
1.13
1.06
1.03

2.76
2.58
2.34



For comparison: using the same algorithm (a huge approximation) for TES shows 21% of hands successfully cast a Turn 1 Empty the Warrens for an average of >15 goblins (this calculation is much more difficult as their entire deck is designed to power out Empty the Warrens, which means many more cards are likely relevant)

Results
Results Summary
-A majority of Turn 1 wins occur from cantrip+probe+LED into Burning Wish, which is likely due to the deck requiring 2 IMS; this makes sense in hindsight but was surprising and I spent a while looking for a bug in my calculation after seeing this
-The lower average storm for turn 2 arises from casting Burning Wish off of 2 lands, the route producing the lowest storm count
-Unsurprisingly, the most unsuccessful route is cantripping into casting Burning Wish with IMS as this requires the initial hand and cantrip(s) to find 3 IMS.
-Lotus Petal has a smaller than expected effect on the chance of casting Empty the Warrens, but does increase the average number of goblins by roughly 10% per petal for a Turn 2 Empty the Warrens
-I was surprised to find that a majority of Empty the Warrens had sufficient storm, with 65% of the 2-Petal version and 74% of the 4-Petal version having >12 goblins on turn 2
-A turn 1 Empty the Warrens has a minimum of 10 goblins due to requiring either a Petal, 2 LED/Dark Ritual/Petal or 2 Cantrips + 2 LED on top of Burning Wish + Empty the Warrens

Comments
-It is important to remember that a large percent of successful empty the warrens likely are hands that are also able to win via Doomsday, so the key question to gauge the importance of the Empty the Warrens option is - 'how many of these hands can cast a sufficiently large Empty the Warrens but not Doomsday?'
-Some increased storm counts appear for a lower Petal count due to relying more on cantripping into Burning Wish. I check to see if I can cast Burning Wish from the initial hand before trying to cantrip into Empty the Warrens.
-Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens provides tangible utility, especially for hands with lots of mana but lacking either Dark Ritual or Cantrips
-However, I would advise against aggressive mulligans for a turn 1 Empty the Warrens; which is a valid approach in TES
-These results imply that the bottleneck is usually the amount of IMS available, which suggests that without a Dark Ritual, playing discard on the combo turn is difficult Turns 1-2
-These numbers are likely inflated a bit compared to normal play (Turn 1 Brainstorm is generally a misplay), where conservative use of cantrips is rewarded by extra draws after casting Doomsday (so a more accurate number for Turn 1 is likely the 'Opening Hand' percentage)

[Dominic Pain]

I'm curious to know, what are people's thoughts on UBr vs 5c Doomsday? Has anyone been having success with 5c or is UBr become like the go-to?

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

[Asthereal]

Five colour Doomsday gives you Chant/Silence effects. These help to make Doomsday a safe kill when facing potential burn spells. Disadvantage is the weaker mana base. Problem: most decks with burn also attack your mana base, making a weak mana base more dangerous.

The only non-UBR thing we really need, is Abrupt Decay. Without it, beating CounterTop is a nightmare. So UBr mana base with green mana from the board should be fine. I personally play the green mana main deck, because sideboard space is so tight, but that's about it.

---

Side note about Empty: I still run a one-of in my sideboard, just in case. You sometimes draw hands that can power it out on turn one, and going TES mode can be very strong against certain matchups we'd otherwise be struggling against.

[Deviruchi]

I'm curious to know, what are people's thoughts on UBr vs 5c Doomsday? Has anyone been having success with 5c or is UBr become like the go-to?

UBr(g) is more common these days and probably way better. I used to play 5c a lot and still managed to succeed in a few local trials for GP Prague few months ago. Orim's Chant gave me wins: in PTT piles; in combination with BW -> Time Spiral; vs Elves/Dredge. Serenity was also huge vs Eldrazi/MUD/12post. I played a 5c version with 3BW, 1ToA main, 0 Maniac/Sphere.

[the driver]

5 color is just as viable. The mana bases between UBr and UBwr are very similar in terms of number of basics, non basics, and fetches. It's nearly as solid however makes fetching slightly more difficult. It's also important to realize that the green splash is usually swapped for red or white so it isn't often that the deck needs all five colors.

Chant vs discard has been and always will be debated for doomsday (especially since doomsday can afford the splash and has unique ways of answering dual angled hate). In a known metagame you can select accordingly. In an unknown metagame people pick what they prefer. I prefer UBwrg

[QQQ]

If you are running Labman as a secondary MD win con that you have to assume your opponent will see, is it worth running the Mentor SB considering they will certainly keep in removal? Especially vs decks that don't have other good interaction?

[Namida]

In this situation there is no hate to dodge by having Mentor in your deck, so I don't think you even bring it in. Simply put, if removal is the only real interaction you expect your opponent to present, you get to make them look foolish for having post-sideboard creature removal in against your Storm deck. Even if you do decide for some reason to bring in Mentor, you can ride a few tokens to a win even if they kill the Mentor.

[chaosjace]

New to this deck, someone recommended it so I sleeved it up. Probably really dumb question, does the lab maniac Win on that turn? How do you set it up? All this discussion seems to be about lethal tendrils.
Thanks in advanced!

[Asthereal]

New to this deck, someone recommended it so I sleeved it up. Probably really dumb question, does the lab maniac Win on that turn? How do you set it up? All this discussion seems to be about lethal tendrils.
Thanks in advanced!
It can, easily: assemble a LabMan pile, draw into it with Ideas/Meditate, make mana, cast LabMan, play a draw effect.
Many people play Chromatic Sphere for the final draw effect, because you can't respond to its card draw by killing LabMan.

[Namida]

The "default" Laboratory Maniac Pile is normally Ideas Unbound, LED, Sensei's Divining Top, Gitaxian Probe, Laboratory Maniac. You need the mana to cast Ideas Unbound and Top, so that's 1UU (plus two life for Probe post-Doomsday). This is a pass-the-turn pile, but if you have a cantrip you can add the cost of that cantrip and this pile can win on the same turn. If Sensei's Divining Top is your cantrip, then your pile becomes Ideas Unbound, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Laboratory Maniac; you need 1UU and four life to spend post-Doomsday.

Keep in mind that there are many piles you can make and these are only some basic piles. There are plenty of options to win on the same turn.

[chaosjace]

Thanks guys! I get there are plenty of different piles to make, I just needed a starting point as I have yet to play with doomsday, I like what the de k has to offer though. I am running burning wish right now but am curious about lim duls vault, so I may test those out against my buddies before taking it to a tournament. Combo seems to be running unchecked at my lgs, is this a good contender against other combo?

[Asthereal]

Combo seems to be running unchecked at my lgs, is this a good contender against other combo?
It's double-sided. Against other storm, you are usually slower, but grindy games with lots of discard spells favor Doomsday because of Top. Against Show and Tell it's also tough, because you have to decide whether to use discard to get their counters or to disrupt their combo.

Push come to shove, Doomsday is hard to play and your chances depend much more on your play skill than on the actual list you play or what you play against. You can beat almost anything, because Doomsday is very resilient, but you have many difficult decisions. My best advice is to just play. Play as much as you can. What also helps is to watch YouTube videos of other players piloting the deck and to read a lot about it.

[Namida]

I am running burning wish right now but am curious about lim duls vault, so I may test those out against my buddies before taking it to a tournament.

There are two reasons I don't play Lim-Dul's Vault:

1) Imagine that your hand is a ton of mana, no cantrips. On your turn, you topdeck Lim-Dul's Vault. Winning from here will take three turns because both Lim-Dul's Vault and Doomsday are card disadvantage. You basically stack your deck twice before you get to win, and that's a lot of time for opposing Legacy decks to do any number of bad things for you.

2) Burning Wish in your deck gives you +1 Storm for many of your Tendrils piles. This is often the reason you're capable of winning on Turns 1 and 2.


Combo seems to be running unchecked at my lgs, is this a good contender against other combo?

"A contender" is a good way of putting it. You're not an anti-combo deck so you won't be crushing combo matchups unopposed, but you're not at a huge disadvantage or anything either. Normally my plan against combo matchups is to use all of my resources to find discard to stop the opposing combo, and once you're both out of cards, Doomsday or Burning Wish are great topdecks because Doomsday is basically a one card combo once you've got the mana to execute a pass-the-turn pile. I have had mixed success here because even after stripping your opponent bare, Doomsday not winning in the same turn gives your opponent a chance to topdeck you and I have been embarrassed by Brainstorm a few times; Show and Tell has been favorable for me, but Storm has been abysmal since Past in Flames is a messed up card and a better topdeck than Doomsday if the game has gone moderately long.

I agree with what Asthereal is saying. Experience is the most important factor in your wins here. Doomsday + Burning Wish give you quick access to a lot of your 75, and if you are unfamiliar with how you can combine your cards to get out of tough spots, you can't properly leverage the tools in your toolbox. You gain and lose edges by adding/removing cards from your toolbox, but many players get caught up trying to fix problems they think the deck has without realizing that the solution is to just understand the deck better.

[Silent Requiem]

It's been a while since I played this (or any) deck. How has the SDT ban affected DDFT? Is the deck still viable? What are people bringing in instead?

[kravkenov]

It's been a while since I played this (or any) deck. How has the SDT ban affected DDFT? Is the deck still viable? What are people bringing in instead?

The ban of Sensei's Top is a huge hit to the DDFT deck. Sensei's Top was doing so much work, it's almost impossible to fix the list wth a simple remplacement. There are two directions that people are talking about. The first is about piles with Three Wishes to play around the free draw Top was providing (which works fine). The deck still struggle to reach 10 or more storm, but it's more a Doomsday concern than Sensei's Top ban.
The second option is to go to the "Meandeck" way (Maniac and Shelldock kill). Avoiding the storm part of the deck is cool, and the two kills method are both strong, but you are more often exposed to a pass the turn pile (or sometime double pass the turn pile), which is not that cool.

I think the real DDFT issue with Sensei's Top ban is the tutor package. Top was really good at finding things with all the fetchs played. Looking at 3 fresh cards almost every turn allow to dig deep into the deck and inevitability finding Doomsday (or a tutor).

Right now I'm looking at the tutor package to see how it goes and if it's still viable, because 3 Doomsday, 3-4 Burning Wish and 4 Sensei's Top was a very very strong package. Actual options are Lim-Dûl's Vault and Grim Tutor (any other ?) but I fear that even 4 Lim-Dûl's backed up by 2 Grim are not even close to the Sensei's Top raw power level.

[Dr_D]

It's been a while since I played this (or any) deck. How has the SDT ban affected DDFT? Is the deck still viable? What are people bringing in instead?

Some on stormboards are trying more cantrips maindeck with three wishes as the draw spell. Losing top was pretty brutal, I don't play the deck anymore. If you're curious about what some people have been trying I'd suggest checking out stormboards, but in my opinion losing top was too much.

[d0nkey]

RIP Doomsday.

I'm not convinced that any replacement can be made for top.

[Scott]

People are trying. Top 8 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD27975S/) in a 33-man last week.

// Instant (9)
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Manamorphose

// Sorcery (28)
1 Act on Impulse
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
1 Edge of Autumn
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Preordain

// Artifact (5)
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Creature (1)
1 Laboratory Maniac

// Land (17)
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Lake of the Dead
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 TIme Spiral

[mistercakes]

Interesting. Love the innovation. No lotus petals, and Lake of the dead.

Gotta love the Japanese for trying! 2 empty the Warrens with such few ramp spells seems tricky.

[Xod]

Dammit, wanted to play this deck before top got banned, but didn't own the LED's and volcanics. But with these techs (act on impulse, lake of the dead and edge of autumn) I'm vertical tempted to buy them :-D

The empty the Warren's is OK if you have a burning wish and 8 (preferably 9 or with a led on the field) Mana open. Wish - - > Time Spiral

[kravkenov]

Basicly, there is two build of Doomsday available. The first one is the classic DDFT version, the second one is the "Meandeck" version focused to kill with Maniac and Shelldock Isle. Here is two list you can grab to work and play with. Honestly, with SDT Ban, I still dont know if the DDFT Storm version is yet competitive nor if Meandeck version is. But both use Doomsday and it's fantastic to cast it !

PS: I do play Grim Tutor, mainly because I have it, but 2 Preordain are really good at these two slots too !
Doomsday Tendrils list is heavily inspired from lichius deck published on stormboards

LEGACY DOOMSDAY TENDRILS

1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
2 Grim Tutor
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
1 Three Wishes

// 18 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island // 4th color splash
1 Bayou // 4th color splash
2 Island
1 Swamp


//SIDEBOARD
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Massacre
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Meltdown
1 Time Spiral
1 Void Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Surgical Extraction



MANIAC PILE
Requirements : 2 cantrip

LED
TW
Maniac
LED
GP

Cast Doomsday.
Cast cantrip #1 : Draw LED
Play LED
Cast cantrip #2, in response crack LED floating UUU : Draw Three Wishes
Cast Three Wishes, Exile Maniac, LED, Gitaxian Probe
Play LED, crack for UUU
Play Maniac
Play Gitaxian Probe, win.


TENDRILS PILE
Requirements : 2 cantrip

LED
TW
LED
LED
BW

Cast Doomsday (Storm 1)
Cast cantrip #1 : Draw LED (Storm 2)
Play LED (Storm 3)
Cast cantrip #2, in response crack LED floating UUU : Draw Three Wishes (Storm 4)
Cast Three Wishes, Exile LED, LED, Burning Wish (Storm 5)
Play both LED, crack for RRR and BBB (Storm 7)
Cast Burning Wish into Tendrils (Storm 9), win.




LEGACY DOOMSDAY MANIAC

1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
2 Grim Tutor
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Deep Analysis
1 Mental Note
1 Pact of Negation
1 Unearth

// 18 LANDS (19 with Shelldock Isle)
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp

//SIDEBOARD
3 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wipe Away
2 Pithing Needle
1 Doomsday
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Time Spiral


UNEARTH PILE
Requirements : UB + 1 cantrip + 4HP

Mental Note
Maniac
Deep Analysis
Unearth
Doomsday

Cast Doomsday, Draw Mental Note
Cast Mental Note, mill Maniac, Deep Analysis and draw Unearth
Cast Unearth into Maniac
Flashback Deep Analysis, win.


DARKBLAST PILE
Requirements : multiple

Darkblast
Deep Analysis
Maniac
BLANK
Unearth

There is multiple way to use this pile, casting Darkblast only one time, or dredging to cast it twice, etc.
You can also use Deep Analysis to draw into Maniac and the BLANK card, or just dredging all the stuff going all-in one the Unearth plan.


SHELLDOCK PILE
Requirements : UB + 1 cantrip (optional but win you a turn to land Shelldock the same turn you cast Doomsday)
Advise : Have enough mana to eventually cast Maniac and Doomsday

Shelldock
Emrakul
Maniac
Unearth
Doomsday

Cast Doomsday, Draw Shelldock Isle
Play Shelldock Isle and hide Emrakul, pass the turn
Untap, draw (Maniac), cast Emrakul via Shelldock Isle
Untap (additional turn), draw (Unearth), attack with Emrakul, win.

Here it is safer to cast Maniac after the Annihilation trigger from Emrakul, even if you have Unearth and then Doomsday as backup.


MANIAC IN HAND
Requirements : UUB + 1 cantrip + 4HP

Brainstorm
Mental Note
Deep Analysis
Unearth
Doomsday

Cast Doomsday, Draw Brainstorm
Cast Brainstorm, draw Mental Note, Deep Analysis and Unearth. Put back Deep Analysis and Maniac
Cast Mental Note, mill Maniac, Deep Analysis and draw Doomsday
Cast Unearth into Maniac
Flashback Deep Analysis, win.


UNEARTH IN HAND
Requirements : UUB + 1 cantrip + 4HP

Mental Note
Maniac
Deep Analysis
Blank (usually Pact of Negation)
Doomsday

Cast Doomsday, Draw Mental Note
Cast Mental Note, mill Maniac, Deep Analysis and draw blank-card (usually Pact)
Cast Unearth into Maniac
Flashback Deep Analysis, win with Pact backup.

[Dr_D]

Not even considering price, grim tutor is not a good card in DDFT. It's slow, and loses life in a deck that needs to pay half your life to win. Playing preordains is just superior, as it lets you dig if you need to, but more importantly is a cantrip, so it's a virtual ritual post doomsday. Grim tutor could be good in a slow meta where you have in all the time in the world to set up, but legacy is too fast to play it in DDFT.

[kravkenov]

Yeah, sometimes the 3 life cost is pain, 2 Preordain are certainly better in this deck.
I will keep my Grim Tutor for the Meandeck version of Doomsday and for my ANT deck :)

[Dr_D]

Yeah, sometimes the 3 life cost is pain, 2 Preordain are certainly better in this deck.
I will keep my Grim Tutor for the Meandeck version of Doomsday and for my ANT deck :)

I did test with Grim Tutor as a burning wish replacement when I was hard set on cutting red. I agree, it might be good in a meandeck version with no wishes and it's definitely good in ANT.

Edit: My current list for anyone curious

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
1 Chromatic Sphere

// 1 Creature
1 Laboratory Maniac

// 12 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Silence
1 Rain of Filth

// 17 Land
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire

// 23 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Preordain
3 Burning Wish
1 Act on Impulse


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor

// 4 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Echoing Truth

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

[kravkenov]

So after a couple of weeks playing Doomsday Tendrils, what you think about the Sensei's Top ban ?
Is the Meandeck Doomsday more competitive than the classic Tendrils version ? At least it require less setup to Doomsday into a winning pile and the ability to choose from Maniac or Emrakul kill looks pretty solid to me. What do you think ?!

[Dr_D]

I still like something similar to the list I posted above. I've tried a whole host of configurations including Meandeck versions, and other versions with counter magic. I even tried a list with Shelldock Emrakul maindeck with shit like stifle. I still like the classic DDFT version the best, and FWIW I think the meandeck version you posted above misses out on one of the few things I like about that version in Force of Will. By cutting LEDs and not playing force, it seems like it's just a worse DDFT that's even more susceptible to hate.

[Scott]

People are trying. Top 8 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD27975S/) in a 33-man last week.

// Instant (9)
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Manamorphose

// Sorcery (28)
1 Act on Impulse
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
1 Edge of Autumn
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Preordain

// Artifact (5)
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Creature (1)
1 Laboratory Maniac

// Land (17)
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Lake of the Dead
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 TIme Spiral

The same player got 3rd at a 45-person tournament (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07671W/) over the weekend.

Changes to the main deck:

-1 Manamorphose
-2 Empty the Warrens
-1 Preordain
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Edge of Autumn
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Void Snare
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Horizon Canopy

[Doishy]

The same player got 3rd at a 45-person tournament (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07671W/) over the weekend.

Changes to the main deck:

-1 Manamorphose
-2 Empty the Warrens
-1 Preordain
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Edge of Autumn
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Void Snare
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Horizon Canopy

What is this mad tech? I thought some of my ideas for DDFT have been a bit on the extreme side but hey, seems I am mostly normal.....

I'd be intrigued to find out his number of storm wins vs Labman wins.

[mike1987]

This list just made the top of a 33 man tournament.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15830&d=297154&f=LE

[Silent Requiem]

Wow. This deck was hard enough to play when it still had access to SDT. But now? Seriously impressive work.

It gives hope to players of niche decks everywhere. :D

[muntah]

They sure are salting our wounds. First they take STD to make our lives miserable.
Then they are tempting us with a new Doomsday Invocation. Damn you WotC!

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/doomsday-invocations/

[Yes I do know the invocations were decided months before the B&R announcement, but still a bitter taste.]

[ToadFlinger]

I've been playing the Edge of Autumn list that was posted earlier and I've been almost winning games. Here's the list:
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Lake of the Dead
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push
1 Act on Impulse
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
2 Edge of Autumn
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Void Snare
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
SB
1 Karakas
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Hope of Ghirapur
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Doomsday
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony

I'm going to make some changes to it after having played it for a month and seeing the difference between my local meta and the Japanese meta. I haven't been liking Hope of Ghirapur in the side. Autumn's Veil, Echoing Ruin, and Pulverize look nice. Autumn's Veil could be useful if your opponent is threatening a Brainstorm on your combo turn as it stops counterspells and most removal that could hit your Laboratory Maniac while being easier than Chromatic Sphere. Echoing Ruin and Pulverize both get around multiple chalices. If I put Pulverize in the side, I think I might swap Horizon Canopy for a second red dual, which would make it easier to get the red for Act on Impulse in piles with Autumn's Veil, where an LED would have to be cracked for green.
I also think Three Wishes is much better than Act on Impulse in a lot of situations. A Three Wishes in the main and an Act on Impulse in the side seems optimal.

Edit: Meltdown is just better than echoing ruin in most cases.

[Dr_D]

I've tried all of the odder choices from that deck and I can confidently say that they are odd for a reason. The one thing that stuck in my list was a single edge of autumn. I like it because it can make maniac piles cost 2 less life post DD which has been relevant for me and it also helps when making piles that play through lock pieces. Lake of the Dead was absolute trash for me most times that I drew it, and I tried to play it for a very long time, but it just isn't good enough. Here's my list for reference, it's similar enough to what most of the other DDFT players have been trying.

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal

// 1 Creature
1 Laboratory Maniac

// 8 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual

// 17 Land
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire

// 27 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Preordain
1 Act on Impulse
3 Burning Wish
1 Edge of Autumn


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid

// 7 Instant
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Fatal Push

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Act on Impulse


I'm in no way trying to shit talk the Japanese list, but like I said, a lot of those choices I can't agree with having tested that exact 75 as well as the individual cards extensively.

Edit: I should also add, I don't think you can play three wishes as the draw spell in that list, running things like lake of the dead pretty much lock you into AoI as it'll be too hard to produce UU with that mana base without LED.

[Doishy]

I've been playing the Edge of Autumn list that was posted earlier and I've been almost winning games. Here's the list:[.........................................]


I'm going to make some changes to it after having played it for a month and seeing the difference between my local meta and the Japanese meta. I haven't been liking Hope of Ghirapur in the side. Autumn's Veil, Echoing Ruin, and Pulverize look nice. Autumn's Veil could be useful if your opponent is threatening a Brainstorm on your combo turn as it stops counterspells and most removal that could hit your Laboratory Maniac while being easier than Chromatic Sphere. Echoing Ruin and Pulverize both get around multiple chalices. If I put Pulverize in the side, I think I might swap Horizon Canopy for a second red dual, which would make it easier to get the red for Act on Impulse in piles with Autumn's Veil, where an LED would have to be cracked for green.
I also think Three Wishes is much better than Act on Impulse in a lot of situations. A Three Wishes in the main and an Act on Impulse in the side seems optimal.

Edit: Meltdown is just better than echoing ruin in most cases.

If you are running either of the E3 cards (TW or AoI) I would advocate AoI even main. Keep a second AoI or a D4 (Cruel Bargain / Infernal Contract) as a wish target.
Don't take too much stock in the Japanese list. The player has since admitted he wasn't sure what he was doing with the list and has since restructured it to be a tad more cohesive.

Lake is a strong card but not for the 4/5 colour variants.
There is a variant I am working on atm that does utilise Lake but it is much more swamp heavy enabling it whereas trying to balance U for cantrips, BBB /Swamp, Swamp for Lake / Mountains for say Pulverize is just awkward. The manabase for the deck is key in trying to balance colours yet still have some leniency to be able to run basics if possible.

[Doishy]

For anyone interested in the old Piledoc by Foglio, I have generated a new one for the post SDT format.

To note this is designed as a learning tool, not a dictionary. You should not use this to try and just memorise piles but instead test them out.
The criteria I have tried to set down for the piles listed is generally minimum 7 storm (Where applicable) and maximum 5 mana required post DD.
The document is still being populated over time / when I can be bothered so please message me either on here or on the Stormboards to add your suggestions (No posting them here, it will just clog up the thread).

Also happy to receive constructive feedback :)

Hopefully this will be useful for those unsure as to how to pile sculpt or just starting off before entering an event too.

Document may be found HERE (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-H6vW02yQ6zZWdTdlJ3TWNVRU0)!

[mistercakes]

thanks for putting this together. it might be helpful to use an example with some pictures of cards for any players that are brand new to this kind of document.

[wonderPreaux]

Hi all,

I'm back playing M:tG lately, and I've been trying to catch up on what's been happening with this deck lately, especially after the Top ban. I noticed everyone has switched over to Act On Impulse as their pile-draw over Ideas Unbound. I wanted to ask about that, since I can see different situations where you'd want either one.

For example, consider this old SDT situation:

Board: SDT
Mana: BU
Hand: Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Doomsday

With this, you could go Dark Ritual > Doomsday, piling LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Wish. Cantrip into the LED, spin Top while cracking LED. You now have 3 blue mana and Ideas Unbound in hand. Ideas draws 2 LEDs and Top, flop everything, and Wish into Tendrils. Alternatively, you can pile LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, Probe, Lab Man. This can achieve a pretty similar result, beating Teeg and being vulnerable to removal.

The key mechanic is that the Top replacing itself allows you to double cantrip while triggering the subsequent LEDs in the pile. With that mechanic absent, AoI is how the LED mana is achieved, which is probably why it's such a popular pick. However, I notice there are some issues with using AoI:

For example, consider this single cantrip pile:

Mana: BU
Hand: Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Doomsday + LED

With this, you can accelerate into a pile of Draw-3, LED, LED, Probe, Wish. With a cantrip, cracking LED for red or blue, you can play out the pile. With IU, you can simply play out the pile, paying with mana for Probe, or any cantrip, and resolving the whole thing from as little as 2 initial life. With AoI, though, you need a minimum of 6 life, to have enough life to pay for Probe while resolving the Probe, or you have to make Wish the 4th card and lose a storm. Thus, AoI is mechanically necessary for a double cantrip pile, but imposes limitations on the single cantrip pile in terms of storm achieved or life needed.

Another irksome consideration of AoI is with the pass-the-turn Laboratory Maniac pile. The basic pile is Draw-3, LED, Chromatic Sphere, Probe, Lab Man. The cost of the pile is 2 + cost of the Draw-3, and provides a removal-proof OTK from nothing in hand. Thus, the consideration is how 2UU compares to 4R. Since most Doomsday manabases (should) have 2 Island/1 Swamp, this means you can hold a dual/Petal in your hand and make the Ideas Unbound pile Wasteland-proof against the Teeg decks. With Act On Impulse, the pile becomes more expensive (though Dark Ritual can provide a lot of that generic mana), and requires an off-color mana to start off.

I haven't sat down to look at how IU/AoI compare when it comes to things like double-Doomsday piles or Brainstorm piles, but I think the PTT and single-cantrip pile are relevant enough interactions to be thinking about. Has anyone considered running both, or have a decisive rationale for running one of them?

Lastly, I wanted to ask about manabases. Currently, I'm working with this:

2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

However, I was considering adding a Badlands. This would give me a third Mountain, enabling Pulverize. It would also let me fetch Underground Sea to cantrip turn 1, Badlands to Wish turn 2, and then I can lay a third land and naturally cast Doomsday. I'm not sure how great a second non-blue land would be, but I think a first Badlands has the most merit of any I'd be playing. I'm not sure if I can find room for an 18th land, but I'm on the fence about whether I'd want to cut the 9th fetch or the 3rd Underground Sea. Does anyone have any insights or opinions on Badlands, with or without the use of Pulverize?

[Doishy]

Firstly most people have switched because now running 4 x BS, 4 x PN, 4 x GP and 4 x Pre you are more likely to have double cantrips rather than suitable mana out. The life loss scenario you mention is relevant but by the time that sort of life loss occurs you probably have more mana available than the very minimum. Some people have tried both however having two 'dead' ish cards in the deck can be troublesome for sure.

Personally I have been working on a two colour no-wish variant that eschews AoI for 1 x IU and 1 x IC main. The deck is much more designed to produce a lot of B mana and therefore wants the cheaper IU and the B IC for pile enabling. It also allows for double cantrip piles such as [LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA] though does require greater storm count pre-pile. It runs at least Conjurer's Bauble as additional cantrips that can also be used as the same stored draw as SDT was giving the 1UU pile of [IU, LED, CB, GP, LM] and allow other tricks such as storm looping (1:1 Mana:Storm benefit with no cards in deck) or to increase pile size.

If you decide to remain on the Wish version I would say stick to AoI as it does some solid work atm, especially in the face of Leovold and you can run two as you can replace the traditionally SB IC with a second AoI. You can also Double Doomsday off of it as the draw spell into the second pile can be stored in exile using it. With the UB version CB allows for the Double Doomsday-ing to occur.



Lastly, I wanted to ask about manabases. Currently, I'm working with this:

2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

However, I was considering adding a Badlands. This would give me a third Mountain, enabling Pulverize. It would also let me fetch Underground Sea to cantrip turn 1, Badlands to Wish turn 2, and then I can lay a third land and naturally cast Doomsday. I'm not sure how great a second non-blue land would be, but I think a first Badlands has the most merit of any I'd be playing. I'm not sure if I can find room for an 18th land, but I'm on the fence about whether I'd want to cut the 9th fetch or the 3rd Underground Sea. Does anyone have any insights or opinions on Badlands, with or without the use of Pulverize?

First of all I will point out I consider 17 lands high so 18 is just crazy talk to me. I run 16 lands and 2 LP though one land is more of a Spell (Lake of the Dead). For Wish variants I think 15-16 lands and 3-4 LP is a good place to be. I agree you want a Badlands though should remove a Volc for it. I also think you could drop a Mire and up a Tarn unless you have a lot of likelihood of the new Spyglass being around in Stompy lists.
Pulverise I am less sure on. By Force has been used a lot to great success but obviously if Pulverise has been doing the work then stick with it.

Hopefully that helps at least somewhat!

[wonderPreaux]

Firstly most people have switched because now running 4 x BS, 4 x PN, 4 x GP and 4 x Pre you are more likely to have double cantrips rather than suitable mana out. The life loss scenario you mention is relevant but by the time that sort of life loss occurs you probably have more mana available than the very minimum. Some people have tried both however having two 'dead' ish cards in the deck can be troublesome for sure.

Personally I have been working on a two colour no-wish variant that eschews AoI for 1 x IU and 1 x IC main. The deck is much more designed to produce a lot of B mana and therefore wants the cheaper IU and the B IC for pile enabling. It also allows for double cantrip piles such as [LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA] though does require greater storm count pre-pile. It runs at least Conjurer's Bauble as additional cantrips that can also be used as the same stored draw as SDT was giving the 1UU pile of [IU, LED, CB, GP, LM] and allow other tricks such as storm looping (1:1 Mana:Storm benefit with no cards in deck) or to increase pile size.

If you decide to remain on the Wish version I would say stick to AoI as it does some solid work atm, especially in the face of Leovold and you can run two as you can replace the traditionally SB IC with a second AoI. You can also Double Doomsday off of it as the draw spell into the second pile can be stored in exile using it. With the UB version CB allows for the Double Doomsday-ing to occur.



First of all I will point out I consider 17 lands high so 18 is just crazy talk to me. I run 16 lands and 2 LP though one land is more of a Spell (Lake of the Dead). For Wish variants I think 15-16 lands and 3-4 LP is a good place to be. I agree you want a Badlands though should remove a Volc for it. I also think you could drop a Mire and up a Tarn unless you have a lot of likelihood of the new Spyglass being around in Stompy lists.
Pulverise I am less sure on. By Force has been used a lot to great success but obviously if Pulverise has been doing the work then stick with it.

Hopefully that helps at least somewhat!

I suppose it makes more sense to answer these in reverse order. To clarify, I run 17 lands, and I didn't want Badlands to be an 18th. Compared to you, it sounds like you shifted a land out for a Petal. I can see why you might want a Badlands over Volcanic, as Lake of the Dead gives you an incentive to run more Swamps, but I was looking for a third red source, so if I went for something like Wish > Pulverize, I could pull another red source for a Wish/Act on Impulse.

I'm not sure that Pulverize is the best choice, but it does seem like a distinctively different option given that it can cost zero mana, so you don't have to wait a turn after Wishing for it. I'm not sure how many slots to devote to artifact locks like Lands/Eldrazi, so I was thinking I'd want the Wish target to be the most decisive, to take game 1s and also reduce the burden on the sidedeck, as might then only need 0-2 Hurkyl's or red artifact sweepers. Just out of interest though, what is the bonus to playing By Force over Meltdown? As far as I can tell, By Force is better against some Trinisphere situations, but less good against multiple Chalices, which is the artifact held in common by a lot of lock piece decks. Since the second lock piece can be Thorn or Trinisphere, I figure it might be more effective across all scenarios to play Meltdown.

My main concern was about how AoI fits with pass-the-turn piles, but do all the blue cantrips really de-emphasize those plays that much? Part of the appeal of this deck, in my opinion, was that against other combo decks or BU(x) decks, you can run full attrition into a pass-the-turn pile that negates discard. For example, with careful land plays and cantrip use, you can use discard to snipe BU(x) deck's counters and slam a doomsday, effectively blanking their discard because you'll have lands for the mana and can simply topdeck into your win the next turn. Gambling against their topdecked counters seems way better than trying to work through Seize/Hymn eating away your spare cantrips or requiring you to discard those while you also have to, at some point, beat the counterspells. Since Grixis/4C are so popular, I figure this would be a legitimate concern, but I haven't tested enough to know how good/bad the matchups are.

That's why I'd be concerned about the Lab-Man-pass pile costing more and costing red, which comes off non-basic lands (though, with 3 red lands, I could more easily draw one naturally, which lets me conserve a red against non-hymn discard spells). It's also worth noting, though, that against Storm/Reanimator/SnS, your nonbasics wouldn't get challenged (and you can play AoI off Blood Moon anyway) and they have neither removal or damage to challenge a pile of AoI, LED, Probe, Probe, Lab Man, which wins the game for 2R anyway. I do like the idea of MB/SB AoI, it's just hard to let go of IU entirely, I'll know for sure as I test against the BUG/Grixis/4C lists.

[Doishy]

I suppose it makes more sense to answer these in reverse order. To clarify, I run 17 lands, and I didn't want Badlands to be an 18th. Compared to you, it sounds like you shifted a land out for a Petal. I can see why you might want a Badlands over Volcanic, as Lake of the Dead gives you an incentive to run more Swamps, but I was looking for a third red source, so if I went for something like Wish > Pulverize, I could pull another red source for a Wish/Act on Impulse.

Actually I would remove Lake immediately if playing with R again s it wouldn't be a concern. A lot of people on wishlists are on 3-4 Petals and 15-16 lands. The deck has such a tight mana base that with the extra Petal fixing you could (and I have) just run a single R source however for the purposes of resiliency (and Pulverise) this is not optimal. I like one Volc and one Badlands because you then can fetch USea into Badlands for say T1 Cantrip / Discard, T2 BW for T3 Doomsday off of lands.


I'm not sure that Pulverize is the best choice, but it does seem like a distinctively different option given that it can cost zero mana, so you don't have to wait a turn after Wishing for it. I'm not sure how many slots to devote to artifact locks like Lands/Eldrazi, so I was thinking I'd want the Wish target to be the most decisive, to take game 1s and also reduce the burden on the sidedeck, as might then only need 0-2 Hurkyl's or red artifact sweepers. Just out of interest though, what is the bonus to playing By Force over Meltdown? As far as I can tell, By Force is better against some Trinisphere situations, but less good against multiple Chalices, which is the artifact held in common by a lot of lock piece decks. Since the second lock piece can be Thorn or Trinisphere, I figure it might be more effective across all scenarios to play Meltdown.

By Force X = 1 kills chalice on one. By Force X = 2 kills chalice on 1 and on 2. Unless they have really upscaled it seems good to hit a lot of things. Pulverise I see as something where you don't cast it the turn you wish for it. You cast it the turn you are going off as the land loss is huge otherwise. You also have to be careful as often in matchups you want to dump as much artifact mana down fast so it does not get locked out by chalice = 0 so destroying all artifacts can be a double edged blade.


My main concern was about how AoI fits with pass-the-turn piles, but do all the blue cantrips really de-emphasize those plays that much? Part of the appeal of this deck, in my opinion, was that against other combo decks or BU(x) decks, you can run full attrition into a pass-the-turn pile that negates discard. For example, with careful land plays and cantrip use, you can use discard to snipe BU(x) deck's counters and slam a doomsday, effectively blanking their discard because you'll have lands for the mana and can simply topdeck into your win the next turn. Gambling against their topdecked counters seems way better than trying to work through Seize/Hymn eating away your spare cantrips or requiring you to discard those while you also have to, at some point, beat the counterspells. Since Grixis/4C are so popular, I figure this would be a legitimate concern, but I haven't tested enough to know how good/bad the matchups are.

Having read this paragraph a few times I'm a tad confused as to what point/(s) you are getting at, any chance you could rephrase it somehow? (Sorry!)
From what I have seen from Gold_rook's streams the best PTT pile is simply something like DD with two lands out, fetch in hand. Stack [AoI - LM - LED - GP - R dual]. Draw AoI, play and fetch land. Cast AoI, win. It doesn't seem to hamper the PTT plan in any real form.


That's why I'd be concerned about the Lab-Man-pass pile costing more and costing red, which comes off non-basic lands (though, with 3 red lands, I could more easily draw one naturally, which lets me conserve a red against non-hymn discard spells). It's also worth noting, though, that against Storm/Reanimator/SnS, your nonbasics wouldn't get challenged (and you can play AoI off Blood Moon anyway) and they have neither removal or damage to challenge a pile of AoI, LED, Probe, Probe, Lab Man, which wins the game for 2R anyway. I do like the idea of MB/SB AoI, it's just hard to let go of IU entirely, I'll know for sure as I test against the BUG/Grixis/4C lists.

Yeah, I couldn't let go of IU hence why I am on my current listy

[emidln]

I like one Volc and one Badlands because you then can fetch USea into Badlands for say T1 Cantrip / Discard, T2 BW for T3 Doomsday off of lands.

When I was playing this deck a lot I found that non-blue non-basics were miserable. I found I'd have to mulligan perfectly reasonable hands due to having a Badlands (or sometimes a Scrubland or Bayou) and it was far more frequent than I wanted to go land, land, land, doomsday, pass. In terms of casting Doomsday off lands, the thing I wanted the most was to be able to do it vs prison/control in the midgame (turns 4-6) as a threat, and to do that around wasteland consistently, I needed 2x Swamp. Any further concessions (particularly if you're on 15 or 16 lands) resulted in more mulligans. At 16-17 lands I'd play a max of two non-islands. At 18 I'd consider a third.

[Silent Requiem]

Is it worth starting a new (post SDT) thread for this deck?

[bennotsi]

Is it worth starting a new (post SDT) thread for this deck?

Nah, this thread started in 2007, the deck has changed quite dramatically quite a few times since then. Sure the banning of SDT has had a lot of impact on how the deck plays. But I'd like to argue that it's actually less dramatic then switching from the German list that played Meditate to the UBrw lists that played Ideas Unbound somewhere in 2011.

To summarize the recent changes: We've basically replaced SDT with some Preordains and replaced Ideas Unbound with Act on Impulse. No SDT means we can do with fewer lands. So we see an increase in Lotus Petals and the 4th Burning Wish is getting more popular. Meanwhile, Conjurer's Bauble is being tested as it enables a couple of efficient high-storm piles.

[Doishy]

Is it worth starting a new (post SDT) thread for this deck?

Well, the first post literally starts off with; "This archetype is extremely customizable. The basic requirements are blue/black fetchlands, brainstorm, dark ritual, lion's eye diamond, and tendrils of agony." .... and that has not changed at all so could be considered still relevant? However this thread is a delightful history through many iterations of the archetype and having a refresh is probably not a terrible idea.

I'm happy either way :)

[Doishy]

For anyone needing a hand in grasping the deck, we now have a website of how to play it!

The Doomsday Codex (http://ddft.wiki/) :)

Updates will be as and when and we hope to start pushing some other articles and whatnot too.

Massive thanks go to emidln, bennotsi and d8dk32 for this so give them some love.

[mutantknight]

For anyone needing a hand in grasping the deck, we now have a website of how to play it!

The Doomsday Codex (http://ddft.wiki/) :)

Updates will be as and when and we hope to start pushing some other articles and whatnot too.

Massive thanks go to emidln, bennotsi and d8dk32 for this so give them some love.


Hey! Very interested in learning to play the deck but was having trouble finding your/a base list to start from. Help!

[bennotsi]

See for example here: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16749&d=303582&f=LE

There's also the deck database subforum on stormboards where we discuss individual lists (http://teamstormboards.proboards.com)

[kravkenov]

See for example here: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16749&d=303582&f=LE

There's also the deck database subforum on stormboards where we discuss individual lists (http://teamstormboards.proboards.com)

Highly appreciate ! (Both, the wiki and the list).

[beardstorm]

It's turn two. You've played a land. Storm is two and you have resolved Doomsday. Life is at 10.

To the left is your hand. To the right are your options.

Win this turn.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171118/88363250e193c6c1efe1641d57bc2bfc.jpg


These are your potential wish targets:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171118/0fc0be60cab27651d9e91253a3c9ff1e.jpg

[Doishy]

It's turn two. You've played a land. Storm is two and you have resolved Doomsday. Life is at 10.

To the left is your hand. To the right are your options.

Win this turn.



These are your potential wish targets:


Nice and easy.

Stack [BS, AoI, CB, LED, LED]

Island for U.
Cast GP (Go to 8 life) (3 Storm)
Draw BS.
Cast BS for U (4 Storm).
Draw AoI, CB, LED, replace AoI, BW.
Cast LP (5 Storm)
Use LP mana to cast CB (6 Storm)
Cast LED (7 Storm)
Crack LED for RRR
Activate CB targeting LED, draw AoI.
Cast AoI (8 Storm) exile BW, LED, LED
Cast LED and LED (9 and 10 storm)
Crack LEDs for RRRBBB
Cast BW (11 Storm) targeting Tendrils
Cast Tendrils of agony for 12.

[beardstorm]

Nice and easy.

Stack [BS, AoI, CB, LED, LED]

You got it. I took a long, hard look at it and I can't seem to find another line than exactly this one, not even one with Laboratory Maniac.

[Doishy]

You got it. I took a long, hard look at it and I can't seem to find another line than exactly this one, not even one with Laboratory Maniac.


I can see a few more for my list (MD ToA as well as SB one) however I cannot work a LM one efficiently. You are one mana off a LM one.
If you had +1 Mana you could also do an IC line using the BW and first card as LED.

[kravkenov]

Quick question : why do we not play Grim Tutor (or Dark Pétition) ?! Seems a decent tool for the deck.

[bennotsi]

You got it. I took a long, hard look at it and I can't seem to find another line than exactly this one, not even one with Laboratory Maniac.

If you weren't playing Infernal Contract in the sideboard but Act on Impulse or Edge of Autumn instead, there would have been more options.


Quick question : why do we not see play Grin Tutor ?! Seems a decent tool for the deck.

I think the main reason is that you can't really use it post-Doomsday, unlike Burning Wish. Using GT post-Doomsday reliably requires using Draw4s instead of the draw/exile 3s that have much cheaper piles. Also, casting GT early in the game almost certainly requires a Dark Ritual that I'd rather use to cast Doomsday.

[JamieW89]

Ran a UBr(w) DDFT list for fun at a local today, probably the first time playing it in about 4 years. Played Mentors sb (3 Mentor, 2 Serenity, Chain, Karakas, bunch of Sorceries) since they fit the fun idea. Missed the prizes, but went better than I had expected beforehand. With tighter play/list/boarding a 6-0 (or at least 5-1) would have certainly been possible, although I'd still not take it to a big event.

R1: Miracles 0-2
Played somewat sloppily in the general decision making I think (cantrips, timing etc), although he drew pretty good (triple FoW in the early turns g2, then drew the StP+Terminus for Mentor, and Fluster for the DD after).

R2: BR Reanimate 2-1
Inexperienced opponent, but got there in both postboard games (including a PTT pile for hate for his board like Chain+Karakas with a Mentor + some tokens in play.).

R3: UR Delver 2-0
Two smooth games with double cantrip piles, his hands weren't the greatest. Had to choose whether to play around Daze or Bolt in g1 with Probe, which would you choose? (1 Daze/0 Bolt seen, couldn't counter anything if he had another Daze in hand up to this point)

R4: Moon Stompy 2-1
Had a great hand g1, but t1 Trinisphere OTP beat me (and Ape Beatdown was too fast for my Labman plan). Won g2 with discard and then combo I think. G3 he had the t1 trinisphere again, but I had the Serenity with three lands. He has some Moon effects but I get there.

R5: Ugr "Lands" with FoW/BWish/Intuition 1-2
Won g1 after having to hit a business spell with AoI (he FoW'd the wrong spell also). Lose g2 playing Mentor and getting outraced when his unknown card turns out to be DD to pair with the Stage in play. Lose g3 when he has to brainstorm into fow+blue card with a lethal Wish on the stack, and he does (3rd card was Surgical for the Wish too, but it was over anyways).

R6: Maverick 2-1
Lose to Mom->Thalia g2, couldn't find an answer in time despite playing plenty.

So I somehow lost two good matchups, but beat some pretty bad ones..

@Bennotsi
Why don't you ever play the Amsterdam bimonthlies (or other Dutch legacy tournaments)? You're clearly a strong player seeing the stuff you've written in the past (I remember articles on double DD piles, playing around QPM etc.), but I don't think I've ever seen you around irl.

[beardstorm]

I can see a few more for my list (MD ToA as well as SB one) however I cannot work a LM one efficiently. You are one mana off a LM one.
If you had +1 Mana you could also do an IC line using the BW and first card as LED.

Yup. I saw those lines as well. Interesting that you play the main deck Tendrils, I might try that out.

[Doishy]

Yup. I saw those lines as well. Interesting that you play the main deck Tendrils, I might try that out.

It enables things such as being able to have no mana floating post AoI to then pay for the CB with the LED to then loop once and then cast ToA or to be able to play a grindy game by doing small value Tendrils a couple of times (can also achieve same effect by casting ToA then using CB to loop back into the deck).

I run 3 BW and 1 ToA where most run 4 BW main. I think either is fine, I just like some of the lines it provides.

[beardstorm]

Ran a UBr(w) DDFT list for fun at a local today, probably the first time playing it in about 4 years. Played Mentors sb (3 Mentor, 2 Serenity, Chain, Karakas, bunch of Sorceries) since they fit the fun idea. Missed the prizes, but went better than I had expected beforehand. With tighter play/list/boarding a 6-0 (or at least 5-1) would have certainly been possible, although I'd still not take it to a big event.

Do you have a complete decklist?

[kravkenov]

I think the main reason is that you can't really use it post-Doomsday, unlike Burning Wish. Using GT post-Doomsday reliably requires using Draw4s instead of the draw/exile 3s that have much cheaper piles. Also, casting GT early in the game almost certainly requires a Dark Ritual that I'd rather use to cast Doomsday.

Ok makes sens. Thanks !

[Doishy]

For anyone interested in terms of deck discussion:

Quick update:

Currently on:


2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Act on Impulse
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Dark Ritual
3 Doomsday
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 By Force
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Doomsday
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fire // Ice
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island


But looking to switch into:


1 Badlands
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Act on Impulse
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Dark Ritual
3 Doomsday
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 By Force
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Doomsday
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fire // Ice
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island


I still don't own a Badlands or a second TS hence the pending changes.
Recent changes are trying out a touch of G in SB again and switching IC to IU (Provides cheaper BW into draw piles, allows boarding in to enable UU BW -> ToA piles, allows 1UU LM piles and sometimes a 2 mana temp Ancestral is fine to wish for as is.

I'm still not 100% sold on the SB. Fire//Ice has been very nice in terms of the Fire side. Ice has yet to shine based on what I have been facing, I look forward to the day I tap a 3Sphere with it.

I'm also not sold on needing the G. Carpets are a concession to try and gain more resource back vs Grixis to basically mitigate the soft counters they run and keep mana resource post hand shredding war. Suggestions welcome.

People seem to be running 2 CB a fair bit now and are happy with that number. I still like 3 but I do keep thinking I want to shoehorn in either a Chain of Vapor somewhere in the main or a 4th BW on top of the 3BW, 1 ToA already there so the 3rd CB seems like an easy take out.

[kravkenov]

Why playing a Tendrils main deck ?!
From what I read on the wiki, every pile listed strictly end by BW into ToA.
Is this only to enable some kind of «*double ToA*» or «*cheap*» ToA pile ?

[Dr_D]

Why playing a Tendrils main deck ?!
From what I read on the wiki, every pile listed strictly end by BW into ToA.
Is this only to enable some kind of «*double ToA*» or «*cheap*» ToA pile ?

Those same piles work with tendrils instead of burning wish if you just cast one more thing pre Doomsday. Also, his list is running conjurer's baubles, opening up many high storm lines that you don't get in a baubless wish list. There are also ptt piles that can storm for 15+ storm and the maindeck tendrils and baubles help facilitate this. Check out the new pile document to see how many piles are possible by having a maindeck tendrils.

[Doishy]

Why playing a Tendrils main deck ?!
From what I read on the wiki, every pile listed strictly end by BW into ToA.
Is this only to enable some kind of «*double ToA*» or «*cheap*» ToA pile ?

Most people aren't running ToA main and opt for 4 BW instead.


Those same piles work with tendrils instead of burning wish if you just cast one more thing pre Doomsday. Also, his list is running conjurer's baubles, opening up many high storm lines that you don't get in a baubless wish list. There are also ptt piles that can storm for 15+ storm and the maindeck tendrils and baubles help facilitate this. Check out the new pile document to see how many piles are possible by having a maindeck tendrils.

As stated it opens up some cool lines.

One nice thing is with something like Cantrip and ToA in hand with 1U you can go (Quick note: This is a BS pile so having CB, BS, AoI or ToA in hand would work or can be done with a LP in hand if have less mana or if need to sub LP for CB etc etc, you get the drift).

[BS, LED, AoI, CB, CB]

Play line is thus with numbers being storm:

1. Doomsday
2. Cast GP, draw (BS)
3. Cast BS, draw (LED, AoI, CB), replace (AoI, ToA)
4. Cast LED
5. Cast CB
- Crack LED for RRR
- Activate CB targeting LED, draw (AoI)
6. Cast AoI, exile (ToA, CB, LED)
7. Cast LED
- Crack LED for BBB
8. Cast CB [This is the key part, the fact you can cast CB using the LED mana where with BW you have to have an additional mana and thus cannot afford the loop]
- Activate CB, target CB, draw (CB)
9. Cast CB
- Activate CB, target LED, draw (LED)
10. Cast LED
- Crack LED for BBB
11. Cast ToA for 11 storm.

To also note this is a pile that scales storm by X so +X mana = +X storm :)

MD ToA also allows some grindy games where you can just value ToA, rebuild, ToA again or use it as a finishing strike after Goblins don't quite get there....

[Doishy]

Hey all. Myself and a couple of others have started a project in terms of the deck and where we sit in the world. One of the annoying things about our little archetype community is that we are relatively small. We don't have a potential thousand people to glean results from and because of this we don't actually know how the deck looks results wise other than our own personal experiences.

Because of this we have put together a spreadsheet to start recording results on. The idea here is to try and gather as much data as possible in terms of tracking where the deck is in regards to Match wins/losses, wins and losses broken down by game, average winning turn, average winning method and so on.

Because of this I am inviting everyone who currently plays to please help us out filling in the sheet. Please only fill in a line if you have complete data for a given match. If a field has a dropdown and the field is not relevant (eg: You never make it to game 3) please input N/A to it! If you could also possibly note down in the end column the notable bits of your list. We assume a standard list has BW, LP and whatnot but anything different such as my use of CB and MB ToA should be noted there.

The second tab of the sheet has an explanation of all the kill lines.

I have inputted ten example lines to give people an idea of what sort of thing is expected under "Doishy".
We already have 100 or so matches recorded which are starting to show some cool trends but we need more data! (These are saved on a non public master sheet with added data processing playground).

Here is the link to the sheet: LINK (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14hIVFCCxK6v6PHzj_7opfigFWVGV73kv59OdeN-J95I/edit?usp=sharing)

Props to angrybacon for sorting out the google sheet formatting and d8dk32 for helping us gather initial data to play with.

[Doishy]

Congrats to Gold_rook 5-0-ing a recent league :)

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-12-10

[Ninjastill]

First time lurker in this thread would love if someone could answer my nooby questions...

1) What does Doomsday storm do better than other storm lists?
2) What are the common Doomsday Piles? and How do you go about going off after a Doomsday
3) On a Scale of 1-10 How competitive is Doomsday in a wide open meta, lets say a GP or something.

Thanks:D

[bennotsi]

First time lurker in this thread would love if someone could answer my nooby questions...

1) What does Doomsday storm do better than other storm lists?
2) What are the common Doomsday Piles? and How do you go about going off after a Doomsday
3) On a Scale of 1-10 How competitive is Doomsday in a wide open meta, lets say a GP or something.

Thanks:D

1) Consistency and robustness mostly. Ad Nauseam remains random and requires plenty of life, Doomsday kills are deterministic and can be performed from as little as 2 life. Ad Nauseam also emposes severe constraints on deck design, although the current lists are not that far off. Past in Flames is vulnerable to most graveyard hate, Doomsday only to Surgical Extraction. In Doomsday, Burning Wish is a true business spell, whereas in ANT you can fetch Past in Flames but need another tutor to find Tendrills, and in TES Burning Wish is mostly for fetching Empty the Warrens, other lines are not impossible but require insane amounts of mana. This adds consistency to the deck as you get to play 7 business spells that can lead to deterministic wins.

2) List of piles: https://github.com/Bennotsi-MTG/DDFT-PileDoc/blob/master/README.md
I am not sure about what you mean with going off after Doomsday, do you mean pass the turn piles? In case you want to read up a bit on the theory to playing the deck: http://ddft.wiki/

3) Doomsday requires a ton of practice. You'll lose way more games to your own mistakes than to your opponent's doing. The current lists have very good game 1 results, we're currently looking at what and how to sideboard to increase the win rates to game 2 and 3.

[Doishy]

3) On a Scale of 1-10 How competitive is Doomsday in a wide open meta, lets say a GP or something.
Thanks:D



3) Doomsday requires a ton of practice. You'll lose way more games to your own mistakes than to your opponent's doing. The current lists have very good game 1 results, we're currently looking at what and how to sideboard to increase the win rates to game 2 and 3.

To elaborate on bennotsi's point, the deck will have good game against the same decks other traditional storm decks do, and likely have a better long game too however this comes at a price of having a lot of decision points both pre-combo and during the combo. This means a lot of potential bad decisions. In some decks these decisions can be not so bad however in a deck with a title card such as ours, these mistakes become more punishing.

Over a longer tournament where constant thinking is required, it can be quite heavy going but if you have put the work in beforehand, you can easily do well. I think the deck also requires a tad more dedication than many decks where people can dip in and out with them but, it is very rewarding nonetheless. I can provide more in depth stats if required.

[kravkenov]

thank you for these very constructives answers.
Basically I’m playing with the deck for 4 or 5 years now. No, to be honest I have the deck sleeves in a box for that time but never feel confident enough to play it at any given tournament. So I mostly just goldfish. I started thinking about it and I’m on this point at the moment : I want a list with a very efficient way to kill with LabMan while killing with Tendrils as a backup plan. From the Gold_Rock list above, I shaved 2 petals for one more Lands (16 Lands) and 7 discards spells with a 3/1 CB/CS split and a Tendrils main (because the line provided by Doishy is pretty cool. Is there anything wrong with a list like this ?

1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Conjurer’s Bauble
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Three Wishes

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp

[Silent Requiem]

Out of curiousity, has anyone tried adding Recross the Paths? With 0 lands, Recross the Paths is functionally another copy of Doomsday. Presumably you'd have to be pushing the T1 wins as you would not be dropping any recurring resources (bar Chrome Mox, potentially). My understanding is that there were Belcher variants that played this with some success.

[d8dk32]

thank you for these very constructives answers.
Basically I’m playing with the deck for 4 or 5 years now. No, to be honest I have the deck sleeves in a box for that time but never feel confident enough to play it at any given tournament. So I mostly just goldfish. I started thinking about it and I’m on this point at the moment : I want a list with a very efficient way to kill with LabMan while killing with Tendrils as a backup plan. From the Gold_Rock list above, I shaved 2 petals for one more Lands (16 Lands) and 7 discards spells with a 3/1 CB/CS split and a Tendrils main (because the line provided by Doishy is pretty cool. Is there anything wrong with a list like this ?


I don't think there is anything "wrong" with it exactly but I think Lab Man should remain the backup plan. I've never felt like I needed Chromatic Sphere and having 4 petals makes Empty the Warrens a much more reasonable wincon. 4 petals also speeds up the normal Doomsday storm kills. I view Lab Man as a necessary evil, letting us play through hate and heavy discard. But Tendrils of Agony is the main plan in about 70% of games.

[kravkenov]

I don't think there is anything "wrong" with it exactly but I think Lab Man should remain the backup plan. I've never felt like I needed Chromatic Sphere and having 4 petals makes Empty the Warrens a much more reasonable wincon. 4 petals also speeds up the normal Doomsday storm kills. I view Lab Man as a necessary evil, letting us play through hate and heavy discard. But Tendrils of Agony is the main plan in about 70% of games.

So cutting a CS and a CB for 2 more Petals looks reasonable to you ?
I said I want to kill with LabMan first because I don’t feel confident enough to build Tendrils pile on the go. So the «learning plan» was to play the deck with a solid LabMan kill configuration, but if a Tendrils line show up, let’s go for the Tendrils kill. And I do not (yet) play Empty the Warrens as a sideboard kill option.

[d8dk32]

So cutting a CS and a CB for 2 more Petals looks reasonable to you ?
I said I want to kill with LabMan first because I don’t feel confident enough to build Tendrils pile on the go. So the «learning plan» was to play the deck with a solid LabMan kill configuration, but if a Tendrils line show up, let’s go for the Tendrils kill. And I do not (yet) play Empty the Warrens as a sideboard kill option.

I think that would be reasonable. I also think Empty the Warrens should 100% be in the sideboard. A fast empty is a great option against Delver, Czech pile, and any deck with lockpieces.

[Ninjastill]

Thanks for answering my questions, have been doing a lot of goldfishing learning basic piles so far. Are the Baubles there for easier Lab man kills? and I assume Labman is the backup plan where Wish for Tendrils should be the main win con?

[Dr_D]

Thanks for answering my questions, have been doing a lot of goldfishing learning basic piles so far. Are the Baubles there for easier Lab man kills? and I assume Labman is the backup plan where Wish for Tendrils should be the main win con?

Actually, the Baubles are insane for making pass the turn piles that storm for high amounts (12+). I believe there's some in the pile document if you want to have a look.

[d8dk32]

Thanks for answering my questions, have been doing a lot of goldfishing learning basic piles so far. Are the Baubles there for easier Lab man kills? and I assume Labman is the backup plan where Wish for Tendrils should be the main win con?
Baubles do lots of things. They make your pass the turn piles, both lab man and tendrils, more flexible and robust. An onboard Bauble makes BW + 2 LED a kill. An onboard bauble saves you mana at the cost of storm when drawing into piles, which can be great vs soft permission like daze. They make it easier to play through hate and heavy discard by being cantrips you dont need to hold or cast. In more corner cases, the instant speed draw can be useful for helping play around surgical extraction, predict, DRS, and other random crap. It also gives you a cantrip you can play off black mana. The downside is that sometimes casting Bauble feels like a wasted turn and it's a shit topdeck.

[Doishy]

Baubles do lots of things. They make your pass the turn piles, both lab man and tendrils, more flexible and robust. An onboard Bauble makes BW + 2 LED a kill. An onboard bauble saves you mana at the cost of storm when drawing into piles, which can be great vs soft permission like daze. They make it easier to play through hate and heavy discard by being cantrips you dont need to hold or cast. In more corner cases, the instant speed draw can be useful for helping play around surgical extraction, predict, DRS, and other random crap. It also gives you a cantrip you can play off black mana. The downside is that sometimes casting Bauble feels like a wasted turn and it's a shit topdeck*.

* Yes and no. CB can be the worst card to draw and it can also be a great card. At worst, it's the next card in the sequence like any other cantrip (scry effects aside). At best it means you can shift anything in the yard back in. This means things like rebuying SB cards or using Wish targets again. I have a slight bias as after writing an entire article on the card I sort of fell in love with it. It is certainly not a maindeck requirement and the deck functions well without but it does enable some cool interactions and increase the potential number of decision points.

Same with MD ToA. I think I am the only one who runs that (please correct me if I am wrong) and again, I would never try and advocate it as a "must have" however it adds further choice to the deck and enables cheaper CB piles thanks to net +1 loops and the lower cost by 2 mana compared to BW into ToA.

For reference: http://ddft.wiki/pages-output/ch2/cb-piles/

If it helps at all, here is the list I am currently running, I would ask the others to post theirs too as there is a fair amount of variation between pilots.
The list really needs to be at -1 Underground Sea and +1 Badlands however I do not own a Badlands as of yet.
With the config as it is probably would better to go -1 Burning Wish and +1 Bauble.


2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Act on Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Dark Ritual
3 Doomsday
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize


1 Ancient Grudge
1 By Force
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Doomsday
1 Echoing Truth
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Fire // Ice
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island


In regards to query on CB facilitating LM piles, yes this is the case but only when running Ideas Unbound main. It enables a cheap pile for 1UU plus cost of cantrip which is [IU, CB, LED, GP, LM] with CB used as the winning draw effect.
ToA is the main plan as d8 said by about 70% of total games.
We have a community google doc for putting in game stats for the deck and currently it shows Doomsday engines are used in high 70% of games as the wincon and, of those, about 70% are ToA lines.

https://imgur.com/a/GgPKG

[Ninjastill]

Baubles do lots of things. They make your pass the turn piles, both lab man and tendrils, more flexible and robust. An onboard Bauble makes BW + 2 LED a kill. An onboard bauble saves you mana at the cost of storm when drawing into piles, which can be great vs soft permission like daze. They make it easier to play through hate and heavy discard by being cantrips you dont need to hold or cast. In more corner cases, the instant speed draw can be useful for helping play around surgical extraction, predict, DRS, and other random crap. It also gives you a cantrip you can play off black mana. The downside is that sometimes casting Bauble feels like a wasted turn and it's a shit topdeck.

Thanks that makes a lot of sense, now do you think with the version with baubles that's been having solid success is a real competitor right now in the format? I love challenging decks, its why I play MTG and this makes me want to learn/build it but obviously haven't played it in a tournament or anything like that.

[d8dk32]

Thanks that makes a lot of sense, now do you think with the version with baubles that's been having solid success is a real competitor right now in the format? I love challenging decks, its why I play MTG and this makes me want to learn/build it but obviously haven't played it in a tournament or anything like that.
"Is it a real competitor" is a hard question to answer. Since the SDT ban, Gold_r0ok has 5-0'd with it and I think won a small 1k, I've top8'd a 1k and lost a win and in for a 1k top8. I have a positive winrate over my last 100+ matches. So yes, you can win with the deck. You'll need to put in lots of reps. I think the deck is worth learning even if you never take it to a real event. It's fun and rewarding and will teach you a lot about cantripping. And you can do well with it.

EDIT to add my current decklist:

3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Act on Impulse
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp

1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Act on Impulse
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rending Volley
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

My 1k lists were Bauble-less with 16 lands, so there's a lot of variation in what works.

[Doishy]

Thanks that makes a lot of sense, now do you think with the version with baubles that's been having solid success is a real competitor right now in the format? I love challenging decks, its why I play MTG and this makes me want to learn/build it but obviously haven't played it in a tournament or anything like that.


"Is it a real competitor" is a hard question to answer. Since the SDT ban, Gold_r0ok has 5-0'd with it and I think won a small 1k, I've top8'd a 1k and lost a win and in for a 1k top8. I have a positive winrate over my last 100+ matches. So yes, you can win with the deck. You'll need to put in lots of reps. I think the deck is worth learning even if you never take it to a real event. It's fun and rewarding and will teach you a lot about cantripping. And you can do well with it.

We do have a project going to try and collect info to help work these things out.
Current stats from about 188 "Good data points":

54.14% Match win rate.
54.24% Game win rate.
Average combo turn is 2.8
Doomsday lines are used in 74.85% of games on average.
Empty the Warrens lines are used in 17.83% of games on average.
Natural Storm lines are used in 6.19% of games on average.
Deck keeps 7 card hands 76.32% of the time for games 1 and 2 and about 59.68% of the time game 3.
Dice roll win % is at a perfect 50%.

Any more stats wanted, please ask!

Link to the data collection sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14hIVFCCxK6v6PHzj_7opfigFWVGV73kv59OdeN-J95I/edit?usp=sharing

[Ninjastill]

We do have a project going to try and collect info to help work these things out.
Current stats from about 188 "Good data points":

54.14% Match win rate.
54.24% Game win rate.
Average combo turn is 2.8
Doomsday lines are used in 74.85% of games on average.
Empty the Warrens lines are used in 17.83% of games on average.
Natural Storm lines are used in 6.19% of games on average.
Deck keeps 7 card hands 76.32% of the time for games 1 and 2 and about 59.68% of the time game 3.
Dice roll win % is at a perfect 50%.

Any more stats wanted, please ask!

Link to the data collection sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14hIVFCCxK6v6PHzj_7opfigFWVGV73kv59OdeN-J95I/edit?usp=sharing


Looked over the data, seems Czech and Grixis Delver are tough matchup's otherwise seemed pretty even/good against most decks if I looked at it correctly.

[Doishy]

Looked over the data, seems Czech and Grixis Delver are tough matchup's otherwise seemed pretty even/good against most decks if I looked at it correctly.

Yeah. To provide matchup analysis what we have done is breakdown opposing decks into the relevant hate or combinations of hate and / or thing that will cause us to lose.

The breakdown is:

Speed
Discard
Countermagic
Chalice (Also includes any permanent based hate such as Spheres, Trinisphere, Curse of Exhuastion etc)
Hatebears

The worst combination for the deck observed is Counterspells and Discard combined which is what Grixis / Czech run.
Both show us to have a decent G1 chance against them however this drops when going to SB games so a lot of current discussion has been in sorting this out.
This is also why I have 2 EtW in my SB as it is the best weapon vs Grixis.

[d8dk32]

Grixis Delver is a tough matchup, as it is for other storm decks. I actually think Pile is a bit better than the stats suggest. I feel my results have gotten better against it over time as I adjust my play and my sideboard to fight it.

[d8dk32]

Doishy and I tag-teamed a few matches of a league and wrote an article about it for the DDFT wiki. This is our first shot at what will hopefully be part of a series. Check it out here: https://ddft.wiki/posts-output/DDBC-001/

[Mastikor]

Great read, thanks. Keep up the good work. Much to learn I still have.

[Doishy]

Also a side note there is a DDFT Discord channel for any interested :)

https://discord.gg/NcDHRxj

[kravkenov]

Much appreciate.

I really like the Codex project and hope to give some results soon (but as a father of two kids, understand «soon» like 6 or 9 months haha).

[Doishy]

Hi all!

Another article for you.

I've tried to capture the essence of what happened to the deck in 2017 and give some ideas of where it's possibly heading.
Feedback appreciated!

https://ddft.wiki/posts-output/DD_2017/

[Doishy]

Anybody like numbers and stuff?

https://ddft.wiki/posts-output/DDStatistics-001/

Enjoy.

[wonderPreaux]

With regards to Doomsday as a deck or win-con, one thing I find really interesting about the deck is that you can ignore some of the deck-building constraints you see in ANT or TES. You don't necessarily need to worry about mana costs/life count like an Ad Nauseam user, and you don't need to rush out a graveyard for PiF/Cabal Ritual. Moreover, you can set up some neat compact kills with Lab Man that let you short cut some hate cards and critical mass requirements that Storm decks typically have to keep in mind. With that said, I wanted to discuss Night's Whisper as a useful card in this deck.

Night's Whisper's mana cost and life loss would turn away an Ad Nauseam user, but we can comfortably fit this in given our propensity to go off from 8-10 life. For a PiF loop, Storm users would probably rather play two cantrips for Threshold and digging for specific cards, whereas we can be perfectly fine hitting land drops and any of a variety of cantrips or rituals as our Wishes/Doomsday can be found with cantrips post Whispers, and our rituals can be interchanged with extra cantrips. Night's Whisper occasionally shows up as a 1- or 2-of in ANT sideboards to grind against UBrx decks, but I think it can be a better tool overall for this deck.

It helps out the grindy facets of this deck, especially since Doomsday doesn't get it's Storm engine gradually limited by DRS as badly as Ad Nauseam/PiF can. Night's Whisper also goes nicely with Lotus Petal. Now you have a pairing of cards that convert mana into card advantage and then back again, so you can raise up Storm to get to a natural Tendrils without Doomsday, this helps patch up the relative difficulty Doosmday has in chaining spells to a natural Tendrils. In this way, Petal can be an accelerator that helps Doomsday or a SB EtW, while Whisper sits in the deck and pumps up your threat density/card advantage, so you don't feel the sting of holding Petals in control matchups.

Night's Whisper also does some weird things to the standard double-cantrip Doomsday pile. Consider the following pile:

Mana Requirements: BBBUU
Hand Requirements: Doomsday, 1-Mana Cantrip x2
Pile (Top > Bottom): LED, AoI, LED, LED/Probe, Wish/Lab Man

The first cantrip gets you the LED, which you break off the second cantrip to play AoI. From there, you go LEDs into Wish, or play a Lab Man and Probe. Now, consider what happens with when you replace the two cantrips with Night's Whisper and LED:

Mana Requirements: 1BBBB
Hand Requirements: Doomsday, Night's Whisper, LED
Pile (Top > Bottom): LED, AoI, LED/Probe, Wish/Lab Man, X

With Night's Whisper compressing the draw effects of both cantrips into one card, the LED played alongside Whispers opens a slot in the Doomsday pile (card X). For example, if you fit in a Pact of Negation as card X, you have a Lab Man pile that beats Pyroblast/REB. More realistically, you could use and extra mana to fit in a protection spell. For example, with six mana, check out this pile that beats both REB and BEB effects and removal on Lab Man:

Mana Requirements: 1BBBBB
Hand Requirements Doomsday, Night's Whisper, LED
Pile (Top > Bottom): Duress, AoI, LED, LED/Probe, Wish/Lab Man

The post-Doomsday life loss can be a but rough, but it's worth noting that you can build LED, AoI, Lab Man, Petal, Bauble as a pile so that you only have to lose the two life for Whisper post Doomsday and you can use an instant speed draw from Bauble as a soft check on removal (just pass and force the opponent to remove Lab Man before your next draw step, this tactic doesn't work if you're facing lethal, but, it's a thing).

I don't know if there are some other secret Doomsday pile tricks that Whisper enables, but I'll post them if I think of any.

I'll be grinding a bunch of games of ANT, Omni, and Doomsday over these next few days, as I'm off from work for a bit for Independence Day. If the Night's Whisper pans out I'll add some details. This is the initial list I'll be trying out:

1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Misty Rainfroest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Rain of Filth
3 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Night's Whisper
3 Burning Wish
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Doomsday
1 Act on Impulse

3 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Contract
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Consign // Oblivion
1 Defense Grid