If we take that the role of Moon effects is to lock out a game, then mostly single-color decks with Aether Vial are probably bad for Moons. E.g. Merfolk and D&T. Not sure if Goblins runs Vials still, but them too if so. Anyone else?
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Tribal decks and control decks that aim for the long game are our troublesome match ups
Also anything that runs its own Moon effects is probably built to run reasonably smoothly even if we land ours first.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
It's tough to tell where 8-Moon decks fail. Can be weird, but if there's a matchup where Chalice and Moon are weak, you generally lose it.
Generally, I've found its strongest MUs to be Delver, Elves, Eldrazi, even Infect. DnT is about average, yes they run Plains, but you also want to keep Moons to shut down their mana-denial; Lands is probably above-average, depending if they have a Punishing Fire in hand to take out your Magus; and Topless Miracles is probably above average, too, given that you have Chalice, and Moon shuts down their fetching, too.
Burn is below average (very draw-dependent). I haven't played Merfolk, but I imagine it's horrible, and Goblins is even worse, esp if you don't run equip. Cheaty decks are bad: Sneak and Show / Omni Show are bad MUs, as well as BR and UB Reanimator - they're too quick for Chalice to lock them out generally. And anything without lands is obnoxious, too, esp Manaless - and even Landed - Dredge.
The deck's playstyle is pretty weird. You're all-in on T1, and if you make the wrong play, or play the wrong card in your MU, you often don't recover. It's far from a perfect open-field deck - it's obviously very meta.
And the other awkward thing you want to note is that your own Moons help your manabase - so you don't sac City of Traitors and stop taking damage from Ancient Tomb. So when you side them all out... ouch.
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
Blood Moon is really only *bad* against mono-red decks (Burn, Goblins, Painter).Originally Posted by rlesko
The problem is that it can be lack-luster against a slew of decks. Lack-luster in the sense that it may prove to be a road-block, but often the decks can ignore or power through a moon.
Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Nic-Fit, Pox, and Show+Tell decks can get caught by moon, but if the game goes long enough the moon will end up not mattering.
Against D+T and Merfolk, you often want to keep at least half your moon effects in because Ports, Wastelands, and Mutavaults, can beat you. Against Merfolk, I'll keep in Magus and cut Moon because their removal options are not fantastic. Against D+T I try to keep a split because they can deal with Magus pretty easily. Nic-Fit and Pox are pretty fringe, but Moon effects can be cut pretty easily. Show and Tell in all it's forms is a bad matchup for reasons other than Blood Moon...
I played this exact list from the Top 8 of the 89 Player "Known Magician's Legacy" in Japan. It included two spicy cards, Bottled Cloister and Null Brooch. Both of those cards were completely awesome.
Find the list here.
On Bottled Cloister: Someone let me know that Bottled Cloister does have some pedigree - coming from Vintage Sea Stompy lists of yore. And you know what? It was great. Not a lock piece or a threat, but something closer to Chandra - it gives us inevitability. Yes, of course it combos with Ensnaring Bridge and that's great. But it's also one of the few ways we have to generate value over those long, belabored turns of having our opponent in a lock. Again, similar to Chandra.
On Null Brooch: Out of the board, this is a must-counter lock piece for a deck like New Miracles or other slow control decks. In practice, it actually just means that our opponent needs to find redundant copies of their Disenchant effects (Wear/Tear, Council's Judgment, etc). Good card.
Also, be careful, I guess ANT decks now have room to play Hurkyl's Recalls (in place of Abrupt Decay) out of the SB... Learned that the hard way.
Furthermore, as Sean Brown pointed out in his article, the addition of cards like these supplants the aggro elements of Rabblemaster and Sin Prodder (which Bottled Cloister completely trounced in wowing me, by the way) and moves Dragon Stompy to a decidedly PRISON deck. I did some thinking on WHY Dragon Stompy can do this now (whereas it couldn't before) and I think it's exclusively because of the threat that Chandra, Torch of Defiance is. She's added an angle to the deck that was previously unseen - versatility, card advantage, and inevitability - all wrapped up in a hard-to-remove threat (especially behind an Ensnaring Bridge). I truly believe that eliminating those random proactive cards is the way of the future for Dragon Stompy. Again, this is enabled by the effectiveness and efficiency of Chandra. Instead, I believe we should focus on creating the best possible prison deck.
Would love to hear other people's experiences or opinions of these cards and the general direction of Dragon Stompy as a prison deck, eschewing those proactive elements.
Basically just trying to determine if there are enough match ups where going "moon-less" is viable / preferred...it doesn't seem like it though. Seems like burn, Show&Derp, merfolk, and goblins are all match ups where blood moon is lackluster. Nevertheless, sounds like my sideboard SHOULD be able to accommodate these 8 cards out.
Something I've noticed though is that chalice is rarely "bad" in any match up. For example, in 4C loam its pretty much chalice on 1 98% of the time, chalice on 0 2% of the time. This deck can happily play chalice on 0, 1, or 2 (shit, even 3 in very fringe situations).
I'm playing bridge main too so I'm definitely more "prison" than "stompy".
I'm starting off with 4 faerie, 4 thorn / sphere, 3-4 revoker, 3 MISC.
Are there any RW Painter players that have made the switch to this moon variant?
I'm asking because I'd like to try splashing white. Granted there is no combo finish like Painter but white opens up more possibilities though it requires a weaker manabase and the number of moxen will have to be toyed with. On that note, I'm hating Chrome Mox more and more as we move into Stax territory with Bottled Cloister, Ensnaring Bridge, and even Null Brooch. We don't run enough land to push Mox Diamond and Mox Opal would require artifact lands in addition to other moxen. Perhaps Boros signet could help?
On to the white splash:
Ajani Vengeant - All three abilities are relevant, more useful than just Armageddon but unfortunately is not a win con.
Nahiri, the Harbinger - The first two abilities are helpful, but without a bomb to search for, the tutor is useless.
Cast Out - This cycling removal doesn't come with the downside randomness of Chaos warp and 3is out of Abrupt Decay range.
There's also the option for 1
At this point you start approaching
I'm more interested in taking this deck in a different direction rather than continue to add pages of card selection debate to a meta specific deck. I've consideredfor dack fayden or
for daretti, ingenious iconoclast. Ultimately, I feel that RWx MoonWalkers (Yup, I'm taking credit for the name RIGHT now!
) would just be a worse Tezz control deck.
RW MOONWALKERS
Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Chrome Mox
3 Lotus Petal
Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Stuff
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
3 fiery confluence
3 cast out
Depending on the meta, some number of Trinisphere would bounce in and out of the board.
Feel free to attack this with fury!
My friend runs a RW Stompy Moon deck. W is mostly for SFM, and otherwise it's similar to my mono R stompy deck. Watching him play it, WW is way out of range, and sometimes you're forced to cut yourself off W with a T1 Moon. The manabase is also wonky, and runs more lands than a deck should - mostly the 4 basic plains extra he needs.Are there any RW Painter players that have made the switch to this moon variant?
I'm asking because I'd like to try splashing white. Granted there is no combo finish like Painter but white opens up more possibilities though it requires a weaker manabase and the number of moxen will have to be toyed with. On that note, I'm hating Chrome Mox more and more as we move into Stax territory with Bottled Cloister, Ensnaring Bridge, and even Null Brooch. We don't run enough land to push Mox Diamond and Mox Opal would require artifact lands in addition to other moxen. Perhaps Boros signet could help?
On to the white splash:
Ajani Vengeant - All three abilities are relevant, more useful than just Armageddon but unfortunately is not a win con.
Nahiri, the Harbinger - The first two abilities are helpful, but without a bomb to search for, the tutor is useless.
Cast Out - This cycling removal doesn't come with the downside randomness of Chaos warp and 3
There's also the option for 1
At this point you start approaching
I'm more interested in taking this deck in a different direction rather than continue to add pages of card selection debate to a meta specific deck. I've considered
RW MOONWALKERS
Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Chrome Mox
3 Lotus Petal
Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Stuff
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
3 fiery confluence
3 cast out
Depending on the meta, some number of Trinisphere would bounce in and out of the board.
Feel free to attack this with fury
We've been talking a bit about a 4 color Dack Fayden/ Punishing Fire list on here, and I've built a Dack Stax deck also with P Fire. No offense, but I've performed much better with it than with Stompy. But Dack Stax is Moonless, and doesn't lock your opponent out. Just tons of Card Advantage and cheaty stuff. Not sure if you're interested, very different playstyle.
Your decklist is way too high on cmc4. One Thalia, and you're out. I like stompy more, mostly because the CMC is reasonable and under control - most cards can be cmc3.
A high cmc also makes Bridge fairly ineffective. Super super hard to dump your hand. And you'd feel awful dumping 3 PW'ers to LED just to lock out with Bridge, yikes.
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
Mind directing me to the Dack Stax list?
Just pm'd you. It's pretty fun.
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
I played a RW version with Ajani and SFM as the only white cards. 2 basic plains 4 Mesa 4 plateau.
It solves two huge problems with the deck. A good utility card that controls our opponents access to basic lands while still providing utility in other matchups (ajani) and adding a high impact two-drop that continues to generate value in later turns (SFM).
It does introduce some problems though, which is bigger vulnerability to wasteland and trying to generate W under a moon. We so often want to land moon turn one or two that fetching plains and delaying is counterintuitive. Chrome mox tapping for white means usually pitching a high value card as well.
I felt like the build had a ton of potential, took it to several 3-2 and 4-1 finishes. I couldn't find a mana base I liked though. There were too many games where I was stuck with uncastable white cards in hand. If someone can experiment and find a build that reliably makes W I'd definitely go back to testing it.
On the more prison oriented list, I think sorcerous spyglass from ixalan shows a ton of promise. Pithing needle has the obvious anti-synergy with chalice, and revoker, which more traditional versions of this deck used to run, is really bad in certain matchups because of fiery confluence. Legacy is also very removal heavy at the moment with most metas seeing combo on the decline. This card seems crazy powerful turn one with sol lands. We can look at their hand and name a fetch to shut them off fetching a basic, turns off DRS since his third ability isn't considered a mana ability, deals with walkers, sneak attack, and provides valuable sequencing information.
Even if we could run needle through chalice this card is miles better. Being able to look at their hand we can't really "whiff," even if they have nothing in their hand to name we can identify their deck and name the best activated ability.
Have you tested Manamorphose, Eternal Dragon or Mox Diamond? The problem is, you don't want to run multiple fixers but you want to draw into them reliably.
I think that's a good card to point out, actually. I wouldn't play it MD, though, because my gut tells me that Needle effects are more SB. You're going to run into a lot of MUs where you can't Needle anything (any version Delver), or Needle the really relevant effects (Mana-producing Elves). But I think it's a strong card to point out, and deserves some slots (in the Prison builds - Revoker is probably more what you want in Stompy).
Mox Diamond needs about 24+ lands in your deck to effectively do anything - to drop a land, and play Diamond as ramp from your opening hand. 26 is more preferable. Chrome Mox runs off roughly the same count as FoW - about 16 imprintables (bad) but really more like 19 (good).
Manamorphose gets hit hard by Thalia. Otherwise, it's be a super cool card to consider.
Eternal Dragon - that seems like a strangely hot one, though. I like that idea, as it's still doable off a Tomb if you have nothing else to do T1. I doubt you'd recur it, but long games, you get a decent flier, that might or likely might not recur. Cool idea. I think it's the only viable Plainscycling card, and unfortunately you can't cast the Basic Landcycling cards in RW. There is that land that has Basic LandC... that might be worth considering, too...?
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
I am also very excited for this card!
Ash Barrens
Thinking of strange cards, there is also
- Armillary Sphere which is slow and a crap topdeck
- Mycosynth Wellspring
- Pilgrim's Eye
- Riftstone Portal, which is probably the most complex solution to the problem I can think of. Requires Smuggler's Copter or another looting effect as an enabler. Works through Moon effects, enabling you to troll your opponent super hard.
I'm on stream playing this deck at the last Card Kingdom weekly.
http://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/159961279?sr=a&t=0s
You can see me win 2-1 vs miracles first round and then I'm on stream again for just my third game at the end of R2, where I win vs UWR stone blade and miss 2 sin prodder triggers
Went undefeated for the rest of the night, beating elves and then BUG delver.
I wish the elves match had been on stream. Game one I resolve an early chalice/moon and he's stuck on one forest and essentially does nothing. Game 2 he has an early NO for progenitus and he blows up my one bridge. Game three though was amazing, and invloves about 3 sweepers from me, two resolved NOs from him, quicksmith rebel, and me ending the game at 4 life behind two bridges with a chandra.
The deck got a little love from the SCG Team Constructed Open this weekend.
Link
Mono-Red Prison by Ryan Gnieski
23rd Place at StarCityGames.com Team Constructed Open on 7/22/2017
Creatures (13)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (5)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (19)
11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Spells (23)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Fiery Confluence
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sudden Shock
3 Volcanic Fallout
Looks like they opted for the 11th Mountain over a singleton Quicksmith Rebel
Can someone post the most recent versión of goblin prison?
Thanks, ill appreciate so much
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