All B/R update speculation.

[DarthVicious]

Baubles don't pitch to FoW, draw the same turn, trigger YP, nor tell you what to search for with that cantrip chain. Baubles also increase the clock enemy Goyf would present (still relevant consideration before Fatal Push). They are not broken because a deck with Baubles isn't going to combo off on opponent's upkeep after they pick up a card; they also aren't going to make a land drop on time with Bauble's draw.

So it's a versatile card that has various applications, and not all of them include casting it. The same could be said of many other cards. Probe being used to enable delve only highlights how broken of a mechanic delve can be.

Also: It's a cantrip. Most, if not all, of them pitch to Force, draw the same turn, trigger Pyromancer, increase your own as well as an enemy Goyf, help combo off on an opponent's turn, and help make land drops on your own turn by finding land. Knowing what to search for in any given matchup can be made easier with knowing the format and observing your opponent, Probe just gives you that information the easy way. Just like spot discard spells.

And uhm, people in the DnT thread are actually considering Glasses of Urza...

I was one of them for a time, but it was never given serious consideration based on testing results. Information is powerful, and perfect information all the time is even more so, but it may not be worth the slot in enough matchups.

Oh come on Fox ... you can't point to Probe being the reason that TC & DTT were OP, if every deck which ran these started with 8 Fetches, 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder by default to cycle 10% of their deck into the yard by turn 3.

And probe was just exacerbating the issue by being another cog in the retarded blue stew

Exactly my point.

[taconaut]

Well you see probe does the same as a discard spell but 4 probe is better then 4 more discard spells so you got your own logicical inconsequences mate ;)

I think 0 mana peek is too strong yes and probe is as close to it as it gets. And in these shells it is 0-Mana peek

My main reason for complaint is not power level though, it's just the dullness of that card that takes away something basic from the game

It's not the same, it's similar; the point of that discussion is that people are objecting to the hand info, which discard also provides. Probe can be both similar to and more optimal than the marginal utility of additional discard spells without any inconsistency.

It is close, but not quite the same. It is not an instant, and it costs two life. That can be relevant in matchups like burn or other beatdown decks, and specifically in the case of storm, it competes with Ad Nauseam and Fetches for your life total.

However, all of that is irrelevant if your main complaint is that you find it "dull." Again, I submit that dullness is not a ban criteria, as evidenced by the fact that Show and Tell and Chalice of the Void remain legal, despite being among the dullest cards ever printed. None of these cards need to be banned.

[Ace/Homebrew]

As of this post, the DTB are:

- Elves!
- Czech Pile
- Grixis Tempo
- Sneak and Show
- Death and Taxes

The only deck among them using Probe is Grixis Tempo, and it appears lists waffle between 3 and 4 copies...
Fine card is fine.

[Bryant Cook]

As of this post, the DTB are:

- Elves!
- Czech Pile
- Grixis Tempo
- Sneak and Show
- Death and Taxes

The only deck among them using Probe is Grixis Tempo, and it appears lists waffle between 3 and 4 copies...
Fine card is fine.

How fucking dare you come in here with your "reason and logic" – GET OUT.

#banriteofflame

[iatee]

Probe will be banned one day, whether or not it is currently breaking legacy doesn't really matter. Letting people play with perfect information makes Magic worse / the card is banned/restricted in every other format, so there's been precedent. It will continue to enable busted things in the future with cards that haven't been printed yet and maybe it won't be banned until the next Young Pyromancer or whatever appears, but you'd be nuts to bet against it happening.

It's more of a sure-thing ban than DRS - eventually - because DRS is an overpowered fair card and Probe is an overpowered unfair card. They might decide that DRS is just built into the format like Brainstorm, but Probe is going to be a problem that just gets worse.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

What cards does Probe enable that weren't already good-busted?

[Julian23]

I think you're misunderstanding the call for a Probe ban when you think about it in terms of which decks it enables.

[iatee]

What cards does Probe enable that weren't already good-busted?

Cabal Therapy and Young Pyromancer are fine without Probe - strong but not busted. All Delve and Prowess cards are better with Probe. Wizards likes making spells-matter mechanics and the free spell that gives you perfect information will always be the best enabler for those mechanics.

[Bryant Cook]

Cabal Therapy and Young Pyromancer are fine without Probe - strong but not busted. All Delve and Prowess cards are better with Probe. Wizards likes making spells-matter mechanics and the free spell that gives you perfect information will always be the best enabler for those mechanics.

But these effects aren't harming the format. Monastery Mentor, Swiftspear, and Young Pyromancer aren't dominating MTGO Leagues.

Meanwhile, DRS is in 60%+ of winning lists online.

Calling for a banning of a card that's played in two decks that isn't hurting the format is foolish because "what it could do". If that was the case, Show and Tell would've been banned years ago.

[Crimhead]

I think you're misunderstanding the call for a Probe ban when you think about it in terms of which decks it enables.

If you are not thinking in terms of which decks a card enables, you are misunderstanding the entire B&R list.

However, all of that is irrelevant if your main complaint is that you find it "dull." Again, I submit that dullness is not a ban criteria...

+1

I wish people calling for bans would tell us up front if they want a ban because the card is not fun. It would save a lot of wasted keystrokes.

[iatee]

But these effects aren't harming the format. Monastery Mentor, Swiftspear, and Young Pyromancer aren't dominating MTGO Leagues.

Meanwhile, DRS is in 60%+ of winning lists online.

Calling for a banning of a card that's played in two decks that isn't hurting the format is foolish because "what it could do". If that was the case, Show and Tell would've been banned years ago.

So ban both Probe and DRS? And ban SnS too. "There are lots of cards in legacy that are horrible for the format" isn't actually a good reason for Probe not to be banned.

Perfect information makes Magic worse and takes away one of the competitive advantages that better players have. When you can't bluff anything and/or if you aren't rewarded for being able to read your opponent, Magic isn't as interesting, suddenly it's just about reading your cards and reading their cards and making sure that you don't do something stupid.

There is more to a format than whether or not one deck or card currently happens to be wrecking house. e.g. Modern is on one metric 'healthier' than Legacy right now - there is a far wider spread of tier 1 decks and it's hard to predict what any given t8 will look like. But the gameplay lacks a lot of the nuance in legacy and the fundamental problems with the format - hyper linear strategies that can only be answered with SB cards - mean that it's still actually not that interesting and it is unhealthy on a deeper level. One thing that did make it a little better, however was getting rid of Probe.

The goal for any format shouldn't just be "We need to put out all the forest fires." The goal should be to have a meta that's dynamic/fun/interesting. Probe is none of those things - it's just a sugar rush for a certain style of deck - and it's always going to be a problem. (Until it's not.)

[Bryant Cook]

So ban both Probe and DRS? And ban SnS too. "There are lots of cards in legacy that are horrible for the format" isn't actually a good reason for Probe not to be banned.

Perfect information makes Magic worse and takes away one of the competitive advantages that better players have. When you can't bluff anything and/or if you aren't rewarded for being able to read your opponent, Magic isn't as interesting, suddenly it's just about reading your cards and reading their cards and making sure that you don't do something stupid.

There is more to a format than whether or not one deck or card currently happens to be wrecking house. e.g. Modern is on one metric 'healthier' than Legacy right now - there is a far wider spread of tier 1 decks and it's hard to predict what any given t8 will look like. But the gameplay lacks a lot of the nuance in legacy and the fundamental problems with the format - hyper linear strategies that can only be answered with SB cards - mean that it's still actually not that interesting and it is unhealthy on a deeper level. One thing that did make it a little better, however was getting rid of Probe.

The goal for any format shouldn't just be "We need to put out all the forest fires." The goal should be to have a meta that's dynamic/fun/interesting. Probe is none of those things - it's just a sugar rush for a certain style of deck - and it's always going to be a problem. (Until it's not.)

Perhaps you should play Modern then. Where anything remotely powerful is banned, Death & Taxes will be very strong for you there.

[iatee]

Perhaps you should play Modern then. Where anything remotely powerful is banned, Death & Taxes will be very strong for you there.

Some of us are capable of having these discussions without coming across like lawyers with a legal obligation to represent our deck's best interests.

[Julian23]

Probe has never been about powerlevel. It's about how it makes the format less exciting to play. If we could stop the "Probe too powerful" strawmens, that would be nice.

[Bryant Cook]

Some of us are capable of having these discussions without coming across like lawyers with a legal obligation to represent our deck's best interests.

Coming from the guy who wants to ban a card played in combo decks that happen to be very good against his white weenie deck?

[Bryant Cook]

It's about how it makes the format less exciting to play.

Honestly, if Probe were banned tomorrow I wouldn't be heartbroken. But I think the information thing is kind of bullshit as that information has always been available in the form of hand disruption (Duress/Thoughtseize). The exchange between Probe is card nuetral, where with Seize or Duress, both players are down a card.

Games with Probe are rarely "less fun" because I got to see my opponents hand.

[iatee]

Your problem here is that you're operating under the assumption that everyone else thinks like you do, like it's impossible for someone to not be lobbying for self-interest. I think SnS should be banned too and if they did that DnT players across the world lose their very best matchup.

And beyond that - Probe is not particularly good against DnT. Decks that play Probe sometimes are, and Probe is a good card in those decks, but those aren't the same thing. Maximizing the amount of info you have is way more important vs decks that can cast counterspells. You can generally Storm off blind vs DnT regardless. Fair decks playing Probe often find themselves painfully cycling it for 1 mana and 2 life vs a Thalia in play.

Games with Probe are rarely "less fun" because I got to see my opponents hand.

Yes...they are not less fun...for you.

[Crimhead]

Probe has never been about powerlevel. It's about how it makes the format less exciting to play. If we could stop the "Probe too powerful" strawmens, that would be nice.

When people call for a ban it's assumed to be based power level because they've never banned a card out of Legacy for any other reason (logistic concerns notwithstanding).

Excitement is a very personal thing. Saying "card x makes Legacy less exciting" equates to saying "I personally dislike card x"; which is not even an argument and doesn't deserve a logical rebuttal. It's just bitching and ranting.

Yes...they are not less fun...for you.

But if you don’t care about what other people find fun, why should anybody care about what you find fun?
If people could keep this subjective garbage to themselves maybe this thread wouldn't be a hot pile of rotten spam.

[Lemnear]

DRS is an overpowered fair card and Probe is an overpowered unfair card.

I read this 3 times and it still makes no sense for me. How is a Peek, you can alternatively pay 2 Life for, "unfair" in what it does, while a 1cc Planeswalker with essentially 4 abilities is reasonable?

[Bryant Cook]

When people call for a ban it's assumed to be based power level because they've never banned a card out of Legacy for any other reason (logistic concerns notwithstanding).

Excitement is a very personal thing. Saying "card x makes Legacy less exciting" equates to saying "I personally dislike card x"; which is not even an argument and doesn't deserve a logical rebuttal. It's just bitching and ranting.

But if you don’t care about what other people find fun, why should anybody care about what you find fun?
If people could keep this subjective garbage to themselves maybe this thread wouldn't be a hot pile of rotten spam.

PREACH.

Your problem here is that you're operating under the assumption that everyone else thinks like you do, like it's impossible for someone to not be lobbying for self-interest. I think SnS should be banned too and if they did that DnT players across the world lose their very best matchup.

And beyond that - Probe is not particularly good against DnT. Decks that play Probe sometimes are, and Probe is a good card in those decks, but those aren't the same thing. Maximizing the amount of info you have is way more important vs decks that can cast counterspells. You can generally Storm off blind vs DnT regardless. Fair decks playing Probe often find themselves painfully cycling it for 1 mana and 2 life vs a Thalia in play.

Yes...they are not less fun...for you.

I find Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance to be very unfun and they both create boring gameplay. You don't see me spouting off that I think they need to be banned, because they don't and they don't have the numbers to back it. Very similar to Gitaxian Probe, it's also easy to assume I only think about my self interest with TES. I care most about format health, because without Legacy, there is no TES. Gitaxian Probe isn't a format issue, unlike Deathrite Shaman.