All B/R update speculation.

[Crimhead]

You deal with hate cards because you play an abusive hyperlinear strategy that doesn't play anything close to normal Magic and wrecks decks that do. If strong hate cards didn't exist for Lands, it would be banned. "I have to deal with cards that attempt to prevent me from recurring Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and making infinite copies of an indestructible 20/20" is not the same as "I have to deal with a card that randomly prevents me from playing a normal fair Magic deck with a tight curve."

So because you play a "normal" strategy you don’t think your deck shouldn't have an Achilles' Heel like every other deck in the format? "Fair" decks aren't special.

[iatee]

I can't believe that people are throwing a fit about Chalice when what is arguably the best deck in the format has long since had main deck copies of a way to combat it, whether that be by happenstance or not. Seriously, some of the people placing well with Czech Pile recently are playing three (3!) copies of Kolaghan's Command in their 60! My local metagame has even seen people playing Abrade in the main of their UWr lists recently. Reasonable answers to these things do exist, it might be time for other decks to start doing the same thing that Czech did.

Nobody has ever argued that there aren't answers to Chalice. Sometimes people have them. Sometimes people have FoW. Sometimes Chalice players play against a match-up that doesn't care about Chalice.

The argument is turn 1 Chalice frequently leads to non-games (that's the whole reason there's an entire range of decks built on it.) Non-games suck, are basically a waste of time for everyone and we should aim to have fewer of them. One reason people are afraid of playing Legacy is that they think the format is nothing but non-games. That is not actually true, for the most part legacy games are super interactive. But when it's true, it's really true.

[Watersaw]

Nobody has ever argued that there aren't answers to Chalice. Sometimes people have them. Sometimes people have FoW. Sometimes Chalice players play against a match-up that doesn't care about Chalice.

The argument is turn 1 Chalice frequently leads to non-games (that's the whole reason there's an entire range of decks built on it.) Non-games suck, are basically a waste of time for everyone and we should aim to have fewer of them. One reason people are afraid of playing Legacy is that they think the format is nothing but non-games. That is not actually true, for the most part legacy games are super interactive. But when it's true, it's really true.

If we're banning cards for creating non-games then we might as well hit Wasteland, Force, Belcher, Show and Tell, Reanimate, Cabal Therapy, Daze, Thalia, Leovold, Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, Gaddock Teeg, Suppression Field, Back to Nature and Tendrils of Agony, because all of those have games where they just read "you lose."

If your deck dies to a single card then it's 100% on you to not let that happen.

[Problem4tic]

Nobody has ever argued that there aren't answers to Chalice. Sometimes people have them. Sometimes people have FoW. Sometimes Chalice players play against a match-up that doesn't care about Chalice.

The argument is turn 1 Chalice frequently leads to non-games (that's the whole reason there's an entire range of decks built on it.) Non-games suck, are basically a waste of time for everyone and we should aim to have fewer of them. One reason people are afraid of playing Legacy is that they think the format is nothing but non-games. That is not actually true, for the most part legacy games are super interactive. But when it's true, it's really true.

Chalice is not a Unfair card and does not need to be banned....deathrite shaman is...and all this spike of moonstompy.deck is caused form people going into all those deathrite shaman.deck, and whoever is playing such strategies can't bitch about finding 3 out of 10 chalice decks in a 8 tound tournament.

Do you wanna see an interactive game of magic?Keep deathrite shaman and #unban Mystical Tutor then ;-) and let's see what happends.

P.s. nongames in my opinion are when you already know that if you don't play the 1 mana planeswalker you are gonna start every mu 40_60...and that's not good for a format like legacy where creatures nowdays are better than any spell u can cast (apart brainstorn). My 2 cents...

[Rascalyote]

Your last point just isnt true, miracles doesnt go 40-60 against elves, it ranches them with their spells.

Honestly people complain that in the "new age" (m10 area - around when mythic came out) that spells are garbage and creatures are too good, lets fact check that.

2 blue delve spells busted in half and banned quicklyish, oh not creatures. Misstep isnt a creature, miracle non-creature spells caused countertop to dominate for years ( and no its not countertops fault as that was already a tier 2 deck it was the fact you had 1 mana instant speed hallowed burial or 3 mana serra angel with flash and multikicker W make another one)

When was the last time a newish creature destroyed legacy and got banned? Ill wait

[Nielsie]

You deal with hate cards because you play an abusive hyperlinear strategy that doesn't play anything close to normal Magic and wrecks decks that do. If strong hate cards didn't exist for Lands, it would be banned. "I have to deal with cards that attempt to prevent me from recurring Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and making infinite copies of an indestructible 20/20" is not the same as "I have to deal with a card that randomly prevents me from playing a normal fair Magic deck with a tight curve."

Again I read this thing about 'normal fair Magic'. Explain to me what this means in Legacy for how I see it: every strategy in Legacy is busted. Some do it by abusing the graveyard, some by abusing lands, some by abusing creatures, some by abusing timmy-cards with sol-lands or blue acceleration, some by abusing hyper-efficient 1 mana spells, etc.

So really, what is fair normal Magic? It's just an excuse to keep playing cantrip.deck full of busted card-avantage stuff...

The argument is turn 1 Chalice frequently leads to non-games (that's the whole reason there's an entire range of decks built on it.) Non-games suck, are basically a waste of time for everyone and we should aim to have fewer of them. One reason people are afraid of playing Legacy is that they think the format is nothing but non-games. That is not actually true, for the most part legacy games are super interactive. But when it's true, it's really true.

So what? The purpose of every Legacy deck is to shut you down one way or another. Some do it by trying to win on turn 1-2, others try to do it by countering, removing or blanking everything you try to play or want to try and play... Play Delver, daze your thing, waste your land -> welcome to a non-game, let's ban all the cards...

[jandax]

Fair decks don't win on turn 2.




Chalice is obviously not a good card for interactive Magic - it's actually a turn 1 combo card. Chalice decks 'basically win' on turn 1, whether you're attacking with Reality Smasher or Rishadan Cutpurse doesn't matter that much. The fact that you can actually just throw a random word in front of 'Stompy' and it's kinda a viable legacy deck highlights the reason why Chalice should (and I think eventually will) be banned.

While this hits a vein of truth, it's no good reason to ban a card. Chalice decks are sorcery speed decks, their decision trees aren't intertwined with interaction from the opponent. Were chalice one sided then yes, let the banhammer striketh it down.

What do you imagine the format to look like were Chalice to get banned? Just curious

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[Lemnear]

Yesterday it happend again:

G1 get duressed my force. Two turns later Duress again to see if there is another one. No >Storm off

G2 keep 7, play a BS, on the opps turn, Duress> no blue card for force, combo off with no discard.

Fixed.

In all honest, the overall scenario is the same no matter if your opponent has 4 Probes, 3 Duress, 3 Cabals sleeved up or 4 Duress, 4 Throughtseize (in a hypothetical post-Probe build). Heck, not even the selfinflicted lifeloss would change.

[Problem4tic]

Your last point just isnt true, miracles doesnt go 40-60 against elves, it ranches them with their spells.

Honestly people complain that in the "new age" (m10 area - around when mythic came out) that spells are garbage and creatures are too good, lets fact check that.

2 blue delve spells busted in half and banned quicklyish, oh not creatures. Misstep isnt a creature, miracle non-creature spells caused countertop to dominate for years ( and no its not countertops fault as that was already a tier 2 deck it was the fact you had 1 mana instant speed hallowed burial or 3 mana serra angel with flash and multikicker W make another one)

When was the last time a newish creature destroyed legacy and got banned? Ill wait

I am speaking of this metagame man, miracles is no more the tier 0 deck...the sinergy between Top, cBalance...miracle cards....was just tood god for any other deck to fight through... and nowday i can see a little bit of this problem with deathrite shaman because it blanks many strategies while ramping you;making clock while distrupring your opponet graveyard strategy(not attacking-->no combat interaction= removal or die to his clock...and that's why this "soft lock" is so good especially vs combo strategies that plays no removals maindeck) and gaining you life...does it seem a balanced card? I don't think so...

If you play shaman you have to know that opponents are gonna play anti shaman strategies and that's totally fine because it is the card that shaped this metagame...

The spells you mentioned are bombs...no question....
But i have to ask you....do your opponents run werebear or delver of secrets in theyr tempo lists? Do your opponent run t1 goblin lackey or t1 shaman?

Bad cards calls bad cards as well, delver...thalia...tnn...leovold...shaman....put those and many other silly cards together and then tell me if fair strategies are still fair...
Wotc doesn't like combo in meta so enjoy shaman vs chaliche,moon metagame bois...

[iatee]

While this hits a vein of truth, it's no good reason to ban a card. Chalice decks are sorcery speed decks, their decision trees aren't intertwined with interaction from the opponent. Were chalice one sided then yes, let the banhammer striketh it down.

What do you imagine the format to look like were Chalice to get banned? Just curious

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It would look 100% the same, there would just be fewer games that were over on turn 1.

[maharis]

Played against Czech Pile twice yesterday and still don't think Deathrite is the key problem. The cards up curve are just too over the top. Hymn, hymn, snap-hymn, all cast off lands... that was unpleasant. Obviously hymn has been around for a while but Snapcaster is actually a really stupid card when combined with the infinite 1 and 2 mana OP spells in the format.

[rlesko]

Played against Czech Pile twice yesterday and still don't think Deathrite is the key problem. The cards up curve are just too over the top. Hymn, hymn, snap-hymn, all cast off lands... that was unpleasant. Obviously hymn has been around for a while but Snapcaster is actually a really stupid card when combined with the infinite 1 and 2 mana OP spells in the format.

That is annoying. However, this line of play is clearly opened up because of top ban. Discard is a lot better when your hand doesn't include the top 3 cards of your library.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Chalice is obviously not a good card for interactive Magic - it's actually a turn 1 combo card. Chalice decks 'basically win' on turn 1...

Shhhhh! No one has figured this out yet even though Chalice decks consistently dominate the DTB section

[iatee]

They don't consistently win on turn 1, which is why they're poor choices for competitive play. But they do often enough to throw a wrench in a tournament. People like to refer to these Chalice decks as policemen who are here to help save us from the excesses of cantrip crime, but they're more like policemen who walk around beating up random pedestrians. There's no crime being stopped, nobody's changing their decks.

One thing that people never want to accept in these arguments is that not everyone has the same end goals for the format. Broadly speaking, some people want it to be some crazy festival where anyone can do whatever they want, and other people want the format to be a place for high-level competitive Magic.

I think the existence of T1 Chalice just throws unnecessary variance into competitive play. Obviously it 'can be answered' - everything can be answered. Top could be answered too and sometimes was. I don't think Probe is a great card for competitive play either, for a wide variety of reasons. Other people just really seem to love casting these cards and they're willing to drive 5 hours to a tournament to slam a Chalice on 1 and then go get some nachos.

[Stuart]

nobody's changing their decks

This isn't true though, right? When OGW came out and Eldrazi Stompy ran amok, Chalice came to the forefront of the public conscience. People adapted - not by abandoning all their cantrips, but by running tech like Moat, Back to Basics, K Command, etc - and Chalice died down again.

[iatee]

People adopted to Eldrazi by playing sideboard cards that let them beat Eldrazi. Maybe they threw in an additional flexible answer card to Chalice in their main. They didn't stop playing Brainstorms, Ponders and Swords to Plowshares, which is my point.

[rlesko]

Chalice is one of the least bannable cards in legacy. It doesn't have numbers in terms of win %, meta %, etc to even remotely justify a ban. The only criteria it is for some of you is this "not interactive" criteria in which there any dozens of worse offenders. Most combo decks in legacy are built upon non-interaction. Can we stick to talking about actually bannable cards, please?

[Dice_Box]

People adopted to Eldrazi by playing sideboard cards that let them beat Eldrazi. Maybe they threw in an additional flexible answer card to Chalice in their main. They didn't stop playing Brainstorms, Ponders and Swords to Plowshares, which is my point.

But they never are going to.

Honestly man, I do not want to appear to attack you personally but you are crazy sometimes. The threads I have locked lately tend to be your handiwork and the blow up over a deck that did not exist because you adored a man over a deck he did not build has made me view you as not a little bit unstable. Here you are asking for a card to be banned while stating that the format would, quote, "look 100% the same". Obviously if you remove a card from a format and nothing changes its not a banable card. Its like suggesting that we take out Hill Giants for the simple reason that you dislike the artwork and thus do not want to see it played against you.

It does not matter what you want, it matters what the format can handle. I hate TNN, I want it gone, all copies burnt to keep children warm in the winter. But I am not in here day in day out stating that. Also the format would not look 100% the same after you took that POS out of it. But heres the thing, the format can take TNN, so what I want it not at all relevant and beating my head against a wall for zero gain in a thread is not going to do a dam thing.

I get it, I really do, the hate of something, the honest belief that it is doing more harm than good and the format would be a better place without it. For me that card is Brainstorm. But when was the last time you got into a debate with me about that card? A year ago? I don't know, I don't bother any more. I let it lie and move on with my life. Because knowing and then accepting that my view on the matter has about as much weight on the subject as a Note 7 with an original battery. ie. not only has it got less than no positive impact, but people would really not like to be around me when I whip it out.

The other thing I do not get is a hate for a card that fucks both players hard, and it really does, but you fought everyone over the idea that this same effect, when used by a Blue deck, in a way that they could shift at will the CMC and only have it hit one side, that that was not an issue. Anyway, run on sentences aside, cool your heels. Lest we run around copying a deck that does not exist and getting yelled at for it.

To everyone else, let me quote from another thread on this topic iatee saw fit to drive into the ground:

This thread has devolved into everyone arguing with Iatee's biased notions and assertions and personal opinions that he wants to argue as facts. If you guys didn't participate in the original Eldrazi thread, that's what that thread became as well.

[iatee]

It's extremely rude (and unbecoming of a mod - you should know better) to bring up the Pirate Stompy thread here. That's a completely different subject. The fact that someone who I considered a friend (at the time - we're not talking anymore) betrayed me just to commit a malicious prank has absolutely nothing to do with what should be banned in Legacy.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

It's extremely rude (and unbecoming of a mod - you should know better) to bring up the Pirate Stompy thread here. That's a completely different subject. The fact that someone who I considered a friend (at the time - we're not talking anymore) betrayed me just to commit a malicious prank has absolutely nothing to do with what should be banned in Legacy.

I remember the first time I got trolled by my friends, good times.